Aug. 8, 2025

S11, Chapter 1: Genesis of Evil

S11, Chapter 1: Genesis of Evil
Tapes from the Darkside | Crime & Psychology
S11, Chapter 1: Genesis of Evil

Two men. Five girls. One summer of calculated, incomprehensible cruelty. This is the story of The Toobox Killers. (If you think you already know this story you might be surprised.) — Support the show https://patreon.com/tapesfromthedarkside — Get...

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Season 11

Two men. Five girls. One summer of calculated, incomprehensible cruelty.

This is the story of The Toobox Killers. (If you think you already know this story you might be surprised.)

—

Support the show
patreon.com/tapesfromthedarkside

—

Get 60% off the Magic Mind offer with our link and code https://magicmind.com/tapesmf & TAPES60 #magicmind #mentalwealth #mentalperformance


Sources:
https://www.partnersintruecrime.com/

Music Credit:

Augusta Treverorum
https://linktr.ee/trvrrm

BABY-DOLL-BEATZ
https://www.youtube.com/@baby-doll-beatz
https://www.youtube.com/@lovechapo





WEBVTT

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Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality.

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Listener discretion is advised.

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Welcome to a brand new season of Tapes from the

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Dark Side. Before we begin today, a distinction must be made.

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Not all monsters carry the same name, but some have

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very similar nicknames. Now there's David Parker Ray, known as

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the toy box Killer singular. He crafted his own brand

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of horror in the deserts of New Mexico, and his

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story is not the one we're covering. Our story today

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belongs to two men, Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris. Together

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they were known as the Toolbox Killers plural, Two men,

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five girls, one summer of calculated, incomprehensible cruelty. Together they

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prowled the streets of southern California in a beat up

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silver van they called it Murdermack. Inside that carried a

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toolbox filled with everyday objects pliers, a sledgehammer, items you'd

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find tucked away in a closet or perhaps out in

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your dad's garage. But in the hands of Lawrence and Roy,

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these tools became instruments of pain, of domination, of death.

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FBI profiler John Douglas, the man behind the behavioral science

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unit that inspired the show. Mind Hunter once said that

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Lawrence Bittaker was the most disturbing individual he'd ever profiled.

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And this was a man who had sat across from

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Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez, and Ted Bundy. So what made Lawrence,

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or as we'll call him, Larry, so uniquely terrifying? To

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understand that we need to rewind, not to the crimes,

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not yet, before we can tell the victims' stories. We

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have to go backwards, because in this case, understanding the

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monsters first makes more sense in this story, at least,

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let's begin with the one they called the brains of

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the operation. Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker, who went by the name

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Larry Larry, was born September twenty seventh, nineteen forty, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

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He was an unwonted child. His biological parents had never

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planned to keep him, so they didn't. He was adopted

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within the family, and while rumors circulate online about Larry

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being raised partly in an orphanage, it's now believed that

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those claims are false. I want to begin this season

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by playing a clip from a show that we're going

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to revisit over and over again. The show is called

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Partners in True Crime, and over multiple episodes, they have

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extensively interviewed a woman named Laura Brand. Laura has interviewed

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Larry Bittaker and Roy Norris. Her goal was to gain

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some kind of insight into their minds, their background, something

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that would help us to better understand these types of

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killers and what make them tick. Laura Brand's story is

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fascinating in its own right. She's a criminologist and her

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work has inspired some to refer to her as the

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serial killer whisperer.

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Because there's all this misinformation online about Bittacar Norra's big

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growing in foster care all false. None of them were

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ever in foster care. Bittaker was adopted within the family.

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There was no like foster csism. There was no abuse.

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There was no.

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Sexual abuse or some physical abuse. Bittaker was neglected, and

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he is correct because I did find, you know, a

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report from a social worker that says she did find

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neglect within that family.

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We'll get to Roy Norris later, but for now, let's

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focus on Larry, and I'll try to pull clips that

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apply mainly to Larry, although some of it is intertwined

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We do think Larry spent his early years moving from

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city to city. His adopted father worked in the aviation industry,

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a job that kept the family constantly in motion. But

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where did the claims that Larry was abused in foster

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care originate? Well, it might have actually been from the

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man who would later become his accomplice and also later

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turn on him to try to get a reduced sentence.

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So Norris was more open to talking to you originally.

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Yeah, yeah, what do you think that is? Norris is

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just open. He was open with like anybody who you

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know went to him, you know, for a psychologists, criminologist,

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hen palasist, grouping, anybody. He would talk to anybody. And

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this is why there's a lot of mispread information about

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the case online, you know, the rumors about them being adopted,

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foster care abuse, sexual abuse. That is all from Norris

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just talking and spewing wise you know, to anybody, and

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it made its way to the internet. So I'm always

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trying to dispel these rumors about this case because Norris

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is kind of carry this narrative that's false. And I believe,

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you know, researching the case, I believe Norris actually did

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this at a guilt feeling like he turned his you know,

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turn on Bittaker.

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So he made up.

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These rumors about sexual abuse, physical abuse, foster care and

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spread it out to like for people to have empathy

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towards Bittaker. But it's all false.

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But we're getting way ahead of ourselves here with Roy

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Norris backstabbing Larry in exchange for a plea deal. That

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hole debacle will come much later on. For now, let's

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stick with Larry's childhood. While it's true that Larry and

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Roy's abuse was exaggerated, Larry was neglected. He also had

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few friends, which means few roots, which means little to

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no stability. At age twelve, Larry was arrested for his

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first crime, which would start a long criminal career. This

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was only for shoplifting, but it didn't stop there. Over

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the next four years, Larry was arrested again and again.

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We're not going to go through every crime, but there

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was theft, burglary, and numerous other petty crimes that got

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him labeled by juvenile authorities as a chronic offender. Larry

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would later claim that these crimes were his way of

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compensating for a quote lack of love that he felt

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from his adoptive parents. Stealing, he said, gave him a

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fleeting sense of control. By all accounts, Larry was intelligent,

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highly intelligent. His IQ was recorded at one thirty eight,

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well above average and borderline genius. And it was because

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of this that school board him thought it was tedious

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and pointless, and he dropped out in nineteen fifty seven

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at just seventeen years old. By that time his family

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had settled in California, and within a year he was

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arrested for car theft, a hit and run, and evading arrest.

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Larry was locked up at the California Youth Authority, essentially

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juvenile prison, till he turned eighteen, and when he got

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out he was completely alone. His adopted parents had disowned him.

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They moved to another state without telling him no goodbye

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that we know of, no forwarding address. They had vanished,

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and he would never see them again. Now we're not

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making excuses here, but we have to imagine the effect

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that would have on somebody who has already broken. Larry

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essentially had been rejected by two families before his nineteenth birthday.

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He was a teenage boy whose only sense of power

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came from theft and manipulation and cruelty. And I believe

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it's around this age, in this silence and abandonment, that

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something began to calcify inside of Larry. Whatever pieces of

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empathy he might have once had hardened into something else,

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something colder, something darker.

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We don't want to glorify this person. This person is

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a horrific statistic killer. He is responsible for the murder

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of dozens of victims, innocent lives taken, and it's horrific

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what he did. Maybe if we can understand the psychology

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behind what he did, maybe people can see the signs

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in the future and prevent it. I mean, isn't that

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the goal of this study?

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The goal is to be preemptive with everything. You know,

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this isn't salacious, like you said, this isn't this was

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never taken or meant to be used for anything salacious.

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This is to look into the nucleus of it and

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you know, go deep into his psyche. And that was

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the purpose of these recordings.

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I think the real reason why we wanted to do

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this is because so people can see how you actually

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do it. You can see the methodology and the way

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you're questioning him, how you how you make him comfortable

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with you, create a rapport, because that's that's how you

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have to do it. You can't, you can't. It's not

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like interrogation techniques. It's interview techniques. It's, as we always

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said before, tactical empathy.

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Now I'm about to play for you actual audio footage

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of Laura Brand inside her interview with Larry Bittaker before

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the Partner's in True Crime podcast. Much of this audio

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had never been heard before, and before I play it

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for you, I want you to imagine for a moment,

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being inside a room, face to face with a hardened killer,

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someone you know is going to try to manipulate you,

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whether it's just to gain sympathy or for nefarious reasons unknown.

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How would you react, How would you approach the conversation.

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When you went in there? What was your game plan?

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You know, well, I had my degree at this point

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when I went in there, and I had worked at

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a sex offenders unit. I had a lot of prison training,

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riot training, boundary setting training. You know, I'd been studying

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this stuff for twenty years. But you know, once you're

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in the field and in that cage, especially on san

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Quince stuff, row, you really are kind of left to

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your own devices. That's why like a lot of friendsic

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psychology programs, they'll just put you in a prison because

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they have to see how you're going to react and

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whether you can make it in this field or not.

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You know, it really is sink or swim. So you

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know this was sink or swim. You know. I was

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in the cage and left my own devices, and I

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had to figure out, you know, how to open this

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guy up, how to you know, trigger him into revealing

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more and opening up. And I had to discover that

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kind of as I went. I had played this for

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some FBI agents at a conference I was at who

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had interviewed him too, and I said just I just

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wanted to compare notes, and their mouths dropped and I

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was like what, and they were like, he just said

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it was Norris the entire time when he said he

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wasn't even there no details. And so when they think

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I did play him that clip and they were just

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like their mouths droppers, are like, he's going into he's

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never gone into detail, and he just does it like

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you just ask a question and he just goes straight

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into it. And I was like, so this is he's

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never done this before. They're like no, They're like he

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just said he wasn't even there. It was all norrius.

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Here's the first clip of raw footage between Laura Brand

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and Larry Bittaker.

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Do you think like that feeling of being unwanted is

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like that's what built up inside you.

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I don't know if I'm feeling gonna watch. I wasn't

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aware of what was normal, so I wasn't aware that

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I was, you know, being treated differently than other people were. Really,

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I just know how other people were. I know I've

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asked you before.

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But there was nothing you want to do, Like, there's

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nothing you want to pursue.

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Nothing very strongly, you know. I had to dream cars

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normal for a few good age and I always kind

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of fool around with meganical things. But I had no

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real dribe or interested in. I had no experience really

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at any of it.

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So no.

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Guidance, no no interesting, no interest for my parents helping.

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Me, or do they ever ask you, like what you

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want to do out there high school?

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Like no nobody ever asthletes, not at school or not

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at home. I was just so life, so I didn't

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abandon and nobody knew that I didn't know what was normal.

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I never had a birthday party, never went to one.

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I don't know what normal living was like.

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Here the conversation takes a pivot to Larry's sexuality, and

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while it's not too much to do with his childhood,

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it is fascinating and so I wanted to include it.

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I was a shocked at our last call when you said,

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now you lost your virginity to a drag queen, and

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you you hooked up with a lot of drag queens

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because they were like a subdue.

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And I kind of got you were surprised. I'm not

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something I actually broadcast all that much. It might say

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I'm bisexual to a certain extent, because they have to

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be a feminal. I'm not a I don't go for males,

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males and sexual hom.

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But you will if they're dressed up as the girl

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basically act. Had asked you if you had gotten prostitutes

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from time to.

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Time, just to have that quortion I can remember, and

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you said it.

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Was just luck for the sec It was.

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Nothing, there was no emotion, there was no nothing to it, really,

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and you described the rape the same way that masservation

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would have even been better.

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You've been with the call girl, or we spent a

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couples of an hour as bullshit talking about this and

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that I took a bunch of pictures of her and

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comes to and found them and took her, took them

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a while to track her down, and they thought she

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was a victim for a while, having.

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This like double life living with a drag queen? What?

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How do I ever, how do I question this? I

241
00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:55.000
just think that if it had been more socially acceptable

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for him to be gay at that point in time,

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because this was in the late seventies early eighties, do

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you think that he would have still killed people? Do

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you think that has something to do with it?

246
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I think it does play a factor for sure, Whether

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or not it would have stopped the killings, I can't

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really say. I think that was just you know, I

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think the abandonment issues played way more into that, the

250
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need for attention, the anger, the resentment that has built up,

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and then you have you know, antisocial personality on top

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of that in the mix. I wouldn't say that would

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have stopped it. He was already you know, a perfect

254
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storm already forming. Who was there? But I think, yeah,

255
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I mean maybe if it had been more socially acceptable,

256
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and he you know, maybe he could have found his

257
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group and been more understood or felt more heard. Maybe

258
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:39.799
it could have helped.

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Did you ever talk about like shame from having these

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homosexual thoughts and desires?

261
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.879
No, not with him. He was actually pretty open about it.

262
00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:51.919
Roll I wouldn't acknowledge it, but Larry was pretty open

263
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about it.

264
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I know we're skipping around a little bit from Larry's

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childhood to a sexuality, and now we're going to talk

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a little bit at a bout right before he met Roy.

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But bear with me here because in this next clip,

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we're going to hear the first time the conventional narrative

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around Roy and Larry's question. According to the story, were

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normally fed. Roy and Larry met in prison, and when

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00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.759
they got out is when they began killing. But it's

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highly likely that Larry was raping and killing long before

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00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.039
he ever crossed paths with Roy Norris.

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The rape we're going to be more of like the

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fantasy of a boyfriend girlfriend loving.

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I just didn't didn't end up doing it that way,

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or it just didn't seem to be natural, maybe partly

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because Roy was there and kind of upset the normal normal, normal,

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00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:53.519
normal pattern that might have happened, kind of destroyed.

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Okay, what did he say?

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There? Again?

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I couldn't hear it.

283
00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:57.720
Did you hear it? Did you guys catch that? He

284
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:02.200
actually he slips right here, but he catches himself and

285
00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:06.440
tries to recover. But he says it disturbed the normal

286
00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:09.559
pattern with Roy there, you want to play it again,

287
00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.360
you'll catch it, and he tries to recover. Having Roy

288
00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.360
there disturbed the normal pattern.

289
00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:20.559
Upset didn't seem to be natural, maybe partly because Roy

290
00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:25.000
was there and kind of upset the normal, normal pattern

291
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:25.840
that might have happened.

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00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.320
I think he realized what I was saying, because he

293
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.879
quickly goes, you know, if Rory had you know, if

294
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I've done it by myself.

295
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:36.559
Yeah, so you think he was killing before Roy?

296
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:38.840
Yeah, I definitely think so as well.

297
00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.879
Now let's go back to Larry's childhood. This next question

298
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.200
is fascinating. Did Larry know himself that he was a sociopath?

299
00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.080
Like, were you aware that you were a sociopath?

300
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:53.399
I didn't really think about it. I don't think anybody

301
00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:56.639
mentioned till quite a few years later.

302
00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.799
Like when you're younger, Remember.

303
00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:02.799
I hardly know what a normal person was supposed to

304
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.519
act like it because I was so isolated growing up.

305
00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:08.079
Right, That's true. But did you ever like think it

306
00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:10.759
was weird that you didn't feel like like you saw

307
00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.799
somebody crying, or you didn't feel that response, or you

308
00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:16.400
saw empathy and you didn't really steel it. Did you

309
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.039
ever feel like, oh, that's odd, I'm not feeling that.

310
00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:25.119
I'd occasionally myself, but I never really connected the two

311
00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:29.960
or noticed that I was missing. Again, that's back to

312
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.240
the isolation. I was never hardly in a situation that

313
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.240
I was aware of really hurting anyone other than you know,

314
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:42.920
feeling stuff from mostly commercial enterprises. So it's you know,

315
00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:47.200
connecting the two and being aware of it. It doesn't

316
00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:52.640
come necessarily automatically, right, kind of a taught experience of

317
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.079
parents teaching your kids you know, doing this hurts people

318
00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:58.000
and you shouldn't do it, and blah blah blah, and

319
00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:00.480
I just you know, it just made it hard to believe.

320
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.079
And I just didn't have that and that type of parents.

321
00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.200
I was just it was like I was a border

322
00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.480
living there, and they would take care of the meals

323
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:13.759
and the food and you know, the durant and the

324
00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:18.519
bedding and medicine that it was hardly any communications. Otherwise

325
00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.279
I'd be in my room doing fiddling around with something

326
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:24.480
that they'd be doing. Whatever they were doing, they didn't

327
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:26.640
even talk to each other, so you know, they just

328
00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:30.599
talked to me. It was good.

329
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:32.799
Did they ever say like I love you, Did they

330
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:34.519
ever hug you anything?

331
00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:39.039
Hardly, It were just My father was very stoic and

332
00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.319
almost ever heard anything heard anything from him, and my

333
00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:46.200
mother was a little more dirty than talking, but he

334
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.359
just couldn't talk very much. I mean most all the time.

335
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:52.759
Both of them were Remember that the parents that Larry's

336
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.319
referring to there are his adoptive parents. So his mother

337
00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:59.480
gave him up when he was a baby, and it

338
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:03.759
was act actually both him and his twin brother, his

339
00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.480
name was Charles. His actual mother ended up moving to

340
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.519
Texas and had four more kids, who, according to research

341
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.319
that Laura has done, living with his biological mom would

342
00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.240
have actually been more horrific for Larry. But that was

343
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:22.559
one of the few times that Larry got really upset

344
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.039
when Laura brought this up to him and said, you know,

345
00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.440
he probably had a better life because he didn't live

346
00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:31.759
with his biological mom. So I'm going to play this

347
00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:35.319
clip where Laura and the host of again the show

348
00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:39.480
is called Partners in True Crime. They're discussing this whole subject.

349
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:43.559
I wonder if it's because Bittaker didn't have that bond

350
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.920
with his birth mother, you know, in the first couple

351
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:47.799
of years.

352
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:51.440
Because he was crying about that even in the seventies,

353
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.119
to me about like want because I said to him,

354
00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:57.480
because I read the report from the four siblings, you know,

355
00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.359
because when the appeals came up, they actually when they

356
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:02.720
interviewed all the extended family. So I had the report

357
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.039
from the oldest sister of the four kids, the mother captain.

358
00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:07.440
I kept saying, and I go, you would have had

359
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.319
an awful life. Listen to what your your sister was

360
00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:12.480
saying about how awful it was. And he's like, it

361
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:14.000
doesn't matter. I would have built with my mom. I

362
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:15.079
would have been with my mom.

363
00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:17.480
I mean, I don't have any pity for him after

364
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.920
what he did to these girls. But I wonder if,

365
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:25.559
like psychologically, that damages you as an infant and changes.

366
00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.240
Your one percent, because you know, you look at these

367
00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.279
serial killers. It really is there's always seems to be

368
00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:34.920
a mommy issue, and it's true. I mean, the most

369
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:38.160
primal bond we have is with our mothers. You know,

370
00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:40.680
a child being separated from the mother, I mean that

371
00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.519
alone is already gonna you know, screw us up because

372
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:46.680
that's the most primitive bond that we have, you know.

373
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.880
So yeah, I think that does have severe, severe ramifications

374
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:55.920
from it. Or if we have a you know, abnormal

375
00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:58.039
relationship with our mother, I think that says this up

376
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.880
for life. It's no, I'm just saying, you know the same.

377
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.680
A lot of people have complicated relationships with their parents.

378
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.319
So yeah, like it's it's just, you know, it's the

379
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.799
small percentage of them that turn into serial killers or

380
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:22.000
orgaticts or thieves or dysfunctional people who are functional in society,

381
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.720
you know. I mean there's plenty of non psychopathic killers,

382
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.000
you know that are that are just walking around that

383
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:30.960
you know, people work for. I mean, I've worked for

384
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.640
a couple of psychopaths, you know.

385
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:38.880
Whatever the true reason was, whether nurture and nature combination

386
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:43.240
of both, created the perfect storm inside of Larry Bittaker,

387
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:47.400
Yet the outside world kept giving Larry chances over and

388
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:50.960
over in and out of jail, each sentence a little

389
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.599
longer than the last, each crime a little bolder, but

390
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:59.200
Lawrence wasn't necessarily impulsive like so many other offenders. He

391
00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:02.960
was strategic, and he learned from his mistakes, and eventually

392
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:06.960
he learned to hide in plain sight. In nineteen seventy seven,

393
00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.839
after yet another prison stint, this time for assault with

394
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.640
a deadly weapon, which we'll discuss, Larry was sent to

395
00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:17.839
the California Men's Colony, which is where he would meet

396
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:23.720
Roy Norris. But let's discuss this crime that occurred in

397
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.799
seventy seven, the one that was the catalyst for everything

398
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:32.359
that would come after. It happened outside a supermarket. Larry

399
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:36.440
was seen shoplifting a stake. The young employee named Gary

400
00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:39.519
Louis followed him into the parking lot and asked a

401
00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:43.279
simple question, did you pay for that? Larry didn't argue,

402
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:47.359
he didn't run. Reports say he didn't even speak. He

403
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:50.279
just pulled out a knife and stabbed Gary in the chest.

404
00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:54.559
The blade narrowly missed Gary's heart to other people tackled

405
00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:58.839
Larry before he could escape. Gary survived, but Larry was

406
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.359
convicted not of attempted murder, but of a lesser charge,

407
00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:05.839
assault with the deadly weapon, and this conviction sent him

408
00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:10.039
to CMC the California Men's Colony in San Louis Obispo.

409
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.240
It's one of California's most well known state prisons, both

410
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.079
for its unique setting in the types of inmates it

411
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:21.799
has historically housed. The California Men's Colony is located in

412
00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:25.640
a relatively rural, scenic area of the Central Coast. The

413
00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:29.839
natural beauty around it and its relatively calm atmosphere compared

414
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.359
to the high security prisons like Pelican Bay or San Quentin,

415
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:36.680
gave it a reputation in the sixties and seventies as

416
00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:41.759
a quote soft prison. CMC, opened in nineteen fifty four,

417
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.839
held around four thousand inmates and was sometimes referred to

418
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.799
as the Country Club of prisons. And that's where Lawrence

419
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:54.160
Bittaker met Roy Norris. But to understand the full scope

420
00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:56.880
of what happened in the summer of seventy nine, we

421
00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:00.400
can't just look at Lawrence Bittaker. We have to in

422
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:05.000
the other half of the equation, Roy Lewis Norris, which

423
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.920
is exactly what we'll do when we come back from

424
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:12.279
a quick break from tapes from the Dark Side. Don't

425
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:22.440
go anywhere today. I do not have the boring, awful

426
00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:26.480
programmatic ad for you. I have an actual ad read,

427
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.279
which is from a brand I've come to actually enjoy.

428
00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:32.920
So let's take a minute to take a break from

429
00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:36.319
Serial Killers to focus on something else. And I want

430
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:39.640
to bring up a kind of paradox about focus, which

431
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.039
is the more you try to focus, the quicker you

432
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:45.839
burn through it. And that's because you can't really force focus.

433
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.400
But what you can do is regulate your energy. So

434
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:53.799
to regulate my energy, I work out, sometimes drink coffee,

435
00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:57.680
and now I have something else that helps me regulate

436
00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:00.920
my energy. It's called Magic Mind. They reached out a

437
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.559
few weeks ago asked me to try their product and

438
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.000
take them on as a sponsor if I enjoyed it,

439
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and I truly did enjoy this product. What it is

440
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:13.559
is basically a little energy shot. They have three formulations.

441
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One is a basic no caffeine version, the other is

442
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:19.599
a regular version that has about as much as a

443
00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:22.440
cup of coffee, and the other is the MAX. I

444
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.599
tried each of the three blends for two days each.

445
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:29.680
I'm a caffeine fiend, so Max was my personal favorite.

446
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.640
It's one hundred and sixty five milligrams of caffeine, but

447
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:35.759
it's about the same as another caffeine drink I used

448
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.759
to use, but the energy I got from Max truly,

449
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.160
I'm not just exaggerating this. It felt much smoother. So

450
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.400
I used Max while I was working and recording the

451
00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:49.480
podcast and listening to the interviews that I incorporated. I

452
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:53.000
felt more focused. I did truly feel more dialed in,

453
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.279
had less of that kind of anxious, jittery effect I

454
00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:59.680
have on energy drinks. So I've also tried the other

455
00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.640
one versions, the ones with no caffeine, and I did

456
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.480
enjoy those as well. So I'll take one at around

457
00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:11.559
lunchtime and it just helps me focus in again and

458
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:14.519
just I don't know, it just felt more peaceful. But again,

459
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:19.279
my favorite is Max. So we have a limited time

460
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offer because they're launching right now a promo for us

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to take part in sixty percent off, which is pretty awesome.

462
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Use code tapes sixty. This is not going to be

463
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around for long, so I take it up now. There's

464
00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:37.000
going to be a link in the show notes as

465
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:40.759
well to this offer, or just google Magic Mind and

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put in the promo code tapes sixty at checkout. They

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like it, they will refund you one hundred percent, no questions,

469
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:53.759
so you're basically trying for free and you can cancel

470
00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:57.079
any time. Check it out while it lasts. Thank you,

471
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:03.960
Magic mind, and now back to the show. Unlike Larry Bittaker,

472
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:08.480
whose intelligence and control masked a deep rooted sadism, Roy

473
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:13.240
Norris was chaotic, volatile, a man whose life was also

474
00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:17.079
shaped by rejection from every family he ever knew. Roy

475
00:27:17.240 --> 00:27:21.480
was born on February fifth, nineteen forty eight, in Greenley, Colorado.

476
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:25.000
From the very beginning, his existence was seen as a mistake.

477
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:28.480
He was conceived out of wedlock. His parents didn't marry

478
00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:31.759
out of love, They married to avoid shame. The social

479
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:36.319
stigma of illegitimacy in nineteen forties America was powerful enough

480
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:39.000
to bind two people together who never wanted to be,

481
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:42.880
and Roy was born into that tension, a child raised

482
00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:45.440
by two people who didn't want to raise a child.

483
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.400
His father worked in a scrap yard, his mother a

484
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.680
drug addicted housewife who was barely present and when she was,

485
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:57.599
was often unreachable. His extended family lived close by. His grandfather,

486
00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:01.480
a property owner in the area, but simony didn't mean protection.

487
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:04.559
Not in Roy's case. He bounced in and out of

488
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:08.440
foster homes throughout Colorado. Sometimes he'd briefly live with his

489
00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.240
birth parents, only to be shipped off again. There was

490
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:16.240
no rhythm to it, no comfort, no love. Roy remembered hunger,

491
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:22.519
remembered being cold, denied food, denied clothes, denied dignity, And

492
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:25.160
in one of those foster homes, Roy Norris said he

493
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:29.519
endured something worse, sexual abuse. He later claimed it was

494
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:33.079
a Hispanic foster family he neglected and assaulted him, and

495
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:35.720
it was there, he said that his deep rooted hatred

496
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:39.480
of Hispanic people began to take shape, a prejudice born

497
00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:43.000
out of trauma. Except how much of what I just

498
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:48.799
told you is true? According to Laura Brand, almost all

499
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:50.960
of it was a ruse to gain sympathy.

500
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:53.920
Okay, But Norris was the opposite. He had a really

501
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:56.799
good family, the only thing, and Norsai that's me, he

502
00:28:56.839 --> 00:28:59.160
say to me. He was like, I had a great family.

503
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:01.000
He goes, I would go the roller rink with my

504
00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:04.160
sister ere we Friday. We had the best time. And

505
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:06.119
I was like, so, what the hell happened?

506
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:07.559
Like, right, what happened?

507
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.319
What happened? And he would say to me. The only

508
00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:11.839
thing he reported to me. He was like, the only

509
00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:14.599
thing to think of, Laura is you know, my grandparents

510
00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:16.839
would come over and degrade my mother. They would call

511
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:20.039
her a whore, a bitch, slight And I'm like, well,

512
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:24.480
that's pretty significant. You know your grandparents, You know, degree

513
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:29.799
the female figure in a sexualized passion, especially that can

514
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:30.880
have profound effects.

515
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:35.559
Aside from Roy having a great childhood, aside from his

516
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:40.359
grandparents degrading his mother. What do we definitively know, Well,

517
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:43.480
the truth is we actually know very little. But let's

518
00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:47.559
examine the first event in Roy Norris's timeline, which happened

519
00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:50.079
when he was sixteen years old. Now you might be

520
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.759
wondering why this section of the podcast we're going to

521
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.519
have no recordings with Roy Norris. I had the same thought,

522
00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:59.839
why didn't Laura have any recordings of her interviews with

523
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.319
after all, she spent months interviewing him, just as she

524
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:04.240
did with Larry.

525
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:06.720
Before we get into this, but I want to tell

526
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:09.480
our audience because we get a lot of questions about

527
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:12.720
why aren't we hearing recordings from from Roy Norris, and

528
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.200
so kind of explained to the audience and the listeners

529
00:30:16.519 --> 00:30:17.960
why that isn't the case. You have a lot of

530
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:20.519
letters from him, but you don't have enough recording, So

531
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:22.599
explain to the listeners why you don't have that.

532
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:25.680
Norris didn't want to be recorded and he didn't want

533
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:28.079
to have anything to do with, you know, the production

534
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:31.039
or the book that I was writing, so he opted

535
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:34.440
to be not recorded. That's the whole reason I don't

536
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:36.920
have any recordings of Norris. He just wanted nothing to

537
00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:39.319
do with anything for the study. Well he did actually

538
00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:40.880
participate in the study, but he did want to be

539
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:44.119
recorded on the phone calls and you know I, you know,

540
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.160
I have integrity with the prisoners and you know, the killers,

541
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:49.559
and they don't want to be recorded. I don't record them.

542
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:53.200
When Roy Norris was around sixteen years old, we'll hear

543
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:57.160
of perhaps the first pivotal moment that came to define

544
00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:00.240
his life. But before we dive into that incident, and

545
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:04.319
we have some pretty special footage to share with you again.

546
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:07.759
An interview done on the show Partners in True Crime

547
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:12.039
with Danelle Soderling, who was first cousins with Roy Norris,

548
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:14.920
and when she was six years old, she began to

549
00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:17.680
pick up on the fact that there was something different

550
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:18.559
about Roy.

551
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.200
My mother and his mother were.

552
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:24.319
Sisters, Okay, so first cousins.

553
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:28.039
Yeah, and Norma was the youngest. That was his mother.

554
00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:32.039
Norma Jean was his mother. That was my mother was

555
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:36.920
second oldest. She had a brother, so it was a

556
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:39.960
brother and then the two girls. So there was three

557
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:40.359
of them.

558
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:43.359
So did you grow up in the same area as Roy.

559
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:50.160
Yes, His mother lived in Carson, California, and Norma worked.

560
00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:54.119
She was such a sweetheart. She worked for a stationary store.

561
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:57.920
She ran a stationary store. That was where she worked

562
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.720
forever and ever and retired from. Originally she lived in

563
00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:06.960
when she was married to Roy's dad, she lived in Greeley, Colorado,

564
00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.079
And so I used to go to her house when

565
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:13.160
I was a little girl, and she had huckleberries on

566
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:16.440
her property and we would go pick huckleberries I was

567
00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:21.240
really little, like six, and make huckleberry jam in her kitchen.

568
00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:23.960
And she was quite a homemaker.

569
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:27.799
There was a ten year age gap between Danella and

570
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:31.480
her cousin Roy, so when Danell was six, Roy would

571
00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:33.640
have been right around sixteen years old.

572
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:36.119
Why didn't you tell us a little bit about what

573
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.200
you remember about Roy growing up.

574
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:41.680
When I was a kid, I just felt he just

575
00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:44.799
was creepy to me, and so I always told my

576
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.799
mother I didn't want to go to any family gatherings.

577
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.000
So I really in all the family pictures, it's everybody

578
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:55.279
but me. I just felt I just had a weird

579
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:57.599
feeling about him when I was a child. You know.

580
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.880
So Roy's parents were Norma and Glenn, and they were

581
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:05.599
basically married because Norma got pregnant at an early age

582
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:08.079
and that's just what she did back then. When your

583
00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:10.319
girlfriend got pregnant, you got married.

584
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:14.920
Norma got pregnant by Glynn, and she was really young,

585
00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:17.759
she was only like eighteen, just out of high school

586
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:21.519
when she got pregnant with Roy, and my grandfather found

587
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:24.759
out and he went over and talked to Glenn, Roy's

588
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:28.640
dad and said, you know, old school basically, you're gonna

589
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:33.079
marry my daughter. So it was a forced marriage, so

590
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:33.720
to speak.

591
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:34.839
And so maybe.

592
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:39.000
Roy felt not loved. I don't know, Glenn was a

593
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.920
weird dude. He didn't show love for my aunt Norma,

594
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:46.400
and you know, maybe it all started then. I'm thinking

595
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:48.359
in his childhood somewhere.

596
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:49.599
Did he have brothers and sisters.

597
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.400
He has one sister, Sharon, and she lives in California

598
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:54.079
in Long Beach.

599
00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:55.799
Is she older or younger older?

600
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:58.160
She's younger than Roy, bit older than me. I am

601
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:01.559
totally the baby of all all of them. I have

602
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:07.400
a sister that My sister is seventy three, seventy two

603
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:12.360
or seventy three, And Roy really creeped my sister out,

604
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:15.480
and he would send her letters.

605
00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:17.320
And she told me.

606
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:19.519
When I flew back there to see her one time

607
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:23.360
about four or five years ago, about Roy contacting her

608
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.159
and telling her that when he got out of Britain

609
00:34:26.199 --> 00:34:29.000
he was going to come here and blah blah, and.

610
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:30.760
How did that affect your family?

611
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:35.800
We didn't talk about him for a few times, Okay, yeah,

612
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:39.000
I thought so. We just didn't talk about him, you

613
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.320
know what I mean. It was like the black sheep

614
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:45.360
in the family. Nobody wants to talk about my mother's brother.

615
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:51.239
And Norma was a child psychologist or the school district

616
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:56.280
in Pala Sburtes, California. And then when Aunt Norma found

617
00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:59.039
out what her son did and all that stuff that

618
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:03.679
went on, she killed herself. It couldn't handle it, you know,

619
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.400
like it was so bad what her son did. Just

620
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:12.480
I guess she just couldn't take it. She was like,

621
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:16.400
she was the sweetest person you'd ever meet in your life.

622
00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:19.039
I tell you she would get a heart of gold.

623
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:20.400
She really did.

624
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:23.800
But I mean, I can imagine I have two children,

625
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.760
and I can imagine how would you feel if your

626
00:35:26.840 --> 00:35:30.320
kid did that? You know, like you would probably sit

627
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:31.960
there and go, what in the hell did I ever

628
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:35.800
do that made that child that way? I mean, it

629
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:39.880
would be really confusing to somebody. I believe Norma felt guilty,

630
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:42.719
like maybe she didn't give him enough love.

631
00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:47.760
Now, let's discuss what happened when Roy was sixteen years

632
00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:51.880
old this pivotal event. He was visiting a female relative,

633
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:55.760
who allegedly was a young woman in her early twenties,

634
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.000
at her home, and during the visit, Norris made some

635
00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:03.920
sexually explicit and inappropriate comments to her. The exact nature

636
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.000
of what was said hasn't been made public, and Roy

637
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:09.599
has never talked about it, but it was serious enough

638
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.760
to frighten and offend the woman. She asked Roy to

639
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:15.280
get out of the house, and she reported the incident

640
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:18.840
to her father, and the news got to Roy's father.

641
00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:23.400
Roy's father reacted with rage, threatening to physically beat him

642
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:26.599
if he ever spoke like that again. There's some stories

643
00:36:26.679 --> 00:36:30.079
that Roy actually ran away from home after this happened,

644
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:32.880
although we're not sure if that's true. But what we

645
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:36.159
know is that this wasn't just an awkward behavior or

646
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:40.400
one inappropriate joke. It was a clear sexual boundary violation,

647
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:43.400
and it was aimed at a family member. This kind

648
00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:47.239
of early incestuous fantasy and behavior can be a strong

649
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:49.199
predictor of deeper pathology.

650
00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:52.400
So at sixteen she was attacked by Norris.

651
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:54.719
Yeah, I perfectly that.

652
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:57.840
I don't know. I was too young. I'm sure my

653
00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:59.320
mother didn't tell me anything.

654
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:06.519
This Supposedly it was an attempted sexual assault on her,

655
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.679
and Roy's father found out about it. Your your father,

656
00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:14.480
I think, called him about it, called clean about it.

657
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.440
Wait a minute, say that again. Whose father?

658
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:20.199
What? There's a report that his cousin there was an

659
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:25.159
attempted sexual assault on his cousin, and Roy Norris's father

660
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.159
was called about it by his uncle.

661
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:32.079
Oh, that was uncle Robert, who was the psychologist.

662
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:34.119
It was his child.

663
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:41.320
Okay, Robert was a child psychologist. He's the one that

664
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:42.239
reported it.

665
00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:43.119
I don't know.

666
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:46.000
There's just a report that there was an attempted sexual

667
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:47.039
assault on a cousin.

668
00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:51.440
That might have been Robert's daughter. Then if it was

669
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:56.840
the father that reported it, his daughter was to police.

670
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.239
He didn't report it to police. He just called Norris's father,

671
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:05.760
not police, like it was just within the family.

672
00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:14.239
Yeah, oh wow, hmm. Well, Robert dollar Hide, who was

673
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:20.360
the psychologist, had a daughter named Michelle dollar Hide, and

674
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.840
she would have been about sixteen at that time. She's

675
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:27.519
younger than my sister. I bet that's who you're talking about,

676
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.480
rather than my sister or which I both of them.

677
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:30.960
I don't know.

678
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:31.800
I'm gonna say.

679
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:39.159
I'm sure he tried both of them.

680
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:42.880
Yeah, I just I was so ashamed of him. I

681
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:47.079
just I never told my friends, I never told my husband,

682
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:50.480
I never told anybody that I had a relative like that.

683
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:52.119
How does that make me sound?

684
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:53.960
You know? Wow?

685
00:38:54.119 --> 00:38:57.880
You had a bad feeling. And like I said, I mean,

686
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:03.400
there's a possibility that there's a DNA issue that goes

687
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:07.320
way back. I just heard from the genealogist and she

688
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:11.679
just told me that the Norris name in the genealogy

689
00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:16.039
tree goes back to Gaysey. He's related to John Wayne Gacy,

690
00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:19.360
David Carpenter at Dundee.

691
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:21.639
Oh my god.

692
00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:27.840
At age seventeen, Roy Norris dropped out of school, enjoying

693
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:32.039
the US Navy, looking for purpose, looking for structure, or

694
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:35.239
maybe just a place to vanish into. He was stationed

695
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.840
in San Diego in nineteen sixty five, and in nineteen

696
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:42.000
sixty nine he was deployed during the Vietnam War, But

697
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:45.559
unlike many of his peers, Roy Norris never saw combat.

698
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:49.000
His tour lasted four months. The war had nothing to

699
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:53.760
do with the damage inside of Roy. The trauma wasn't overseas,

700
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.000
it was already inside of him. Now let's go to

701
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:01.639
nineteen sixty nine to discuss another pivotal event in Roy

702
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:05.039
Norris's life. When he was stationed in the Navy in

703
00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:10.639
San Diego, wearing a uniform blending in, Roy Norris spotted her,

704
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.880
a young female marine, sunbathing on her porch in the

705
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:22.400
southern California sun alone, relaxed, unaware. She probably didn't look

706
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:25.800
twice at the man walking towards her, probably didn't even

707
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:31.760
notice him. It's just another serviceman, just another quiet afternoon.

708
00:40:33.559 --> 00:40:38.719
And then Roy approached her. It started casual, some small talk,

709
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:42.599
and then Roy crossed the property boundary. He was into

710
00:40:42.679 --> 00:40:45.679
her yard and on top of her and what happened

711
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:50.320
next would become a familiar pattern, a sickening template. Noras

712
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:54.559
attempted to rape her. She screamed, fought, clawed, and she

713
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:58.280
did get away, but she didn't stay silent. She reported

714
00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:01.559
the attack to police, and Roy Norris was quickly arrested.

715
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:06.960
The military didn't protect him. The court martialed him dishonorable discharge.

716
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:10.840
Then the civilian court stepped in and Roy was convicted

717
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:14.079
of attempted rape and sentenced to five years in prison.

718
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:17.639
But Roy wouldn't stay in prison long. Instead, he was

719
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:21.079
transferred to a state hospital where doctors would label him

720
00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:26.159
a mentally disordered sex offender. Roy Norris was now a

721
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:31.599
patient at a Tascadero State Hospital, a forensic psychiatric facility

722
00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:35.800
for the criminally insane. It was the early seventies. Norris

723
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:39.440
had already attacked several women. He'd been deemed a mentally

724
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:44.880
disordered sex offender, someone who needed treatment, not necessarily prison.

725
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:49.880
But treatment didn't bring peace. It did bring silence and isolation,

726
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:58.000
and eventually desperation. Inside a Tuscadero Roy was paranoid, anxious,

727
00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:02.880
and deeply disturbed. Flam the other inmates were conspiring against him.

728
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:07.039
He couldn't sleep, he couldn't think. His mind was a storm,

729
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:10.719
and he wanted out. So one day he attempted to

730
00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:15.599
make the ultimate sacrifice. He stole a syringe and with cold,

731
00:42:15.719 --> 00:42:19.440
calculated intent, he filled it not with a drug, but

732
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:22.440
with air, and then he slid the needle into a

733
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:27.440
vein and pushed the plunger down. Air embolism, just a

734
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:30.960
few millimeters of air, if it reaches the heart or brain,

735
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:35.840
can stop everything. It's not quick, it's not painless. But

736
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:41.119
Roy Norris didn't care. Yet he survived. How no one

737
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:44.840
really knows. Maybe he didn't inject enough, maybe he didn't

738
00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:48.360
hit the right artery, But for whatever reason, Roy Norris

739
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:52.159
woke up alive and still in the hospital. To the

740
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.599
doctors at a Tascadero, the suicide attempt was a big

741
00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:59.559
red flag, a sign of severe emotional collapse. But within

742
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:03.480
a few years those same professionals would declare Norris quote

743
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.679
no longer a danger to society, and in nineteen seventy

744
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:12.119
five he walked free. Now we also have a crime

745
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:16.840
in Roy Norris's history before he met Lawrence Bittaker that

746
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:19.679
I think is pretty pivotal, that occurred in May of

747
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.280
nineteen seventy. Now you might be saying, if Roy got

748
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:26.360
arrested in nineteen sixty nine and didn't get out of

749
00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:29.440
the hospital until nineteen seventy five, how did he commit

750
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:32.280
a crime in May of nineteen seventy Well, the only

751
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:34.119
thing I can find is that he was on some

752
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:38.360
type of conditional release, and that's when he committed this crime.

753
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:43.840
At San Diego State University, the air was warm and

754
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:47.840
finals were approaching as students hurried between classes under the

755
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:51.599
golden California sun. On the surface, it was just another

756
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:55.119
spring day on campus, but Roy Norris had been circling

757
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:59.840
the campus for hours, watching, waiting. He wasn't a student,

758
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.679
and he didn't belong there, but no one stopped him

759
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:07.800
because predators rarely look like predators. A young woman whose

760
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:11.360
name has never been publicly released, was walking alone across

761
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:15.440
campus when she felt the prickle of unease, you know,

762
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:20.559
the feeling, the sense that someone's behind you. She glanced

763
00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:25.960
back and saw nothing. She didn't know that just feet away,

764
00:44:26.360 --> 00:44:30.000
Roy Norris had already chosen her. He didn't say a word,

765
00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:33.320
he didn't try to talk to her this time. There

766
00:44:33.360 --> 00:44:38.960
was no confrontation, just violence, sudden and savage, Roy struck

767
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:42.320
her from behind with a rock blunt forced trauma to

768
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:45.840
the back of the head. She crumpled to the ground, stunned,

769
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:50.639
dazed but not unconscious. Norrah straddled her, pinning her to

770
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:55.559
the pavement, and then methodically, with terrifying focus, he began

771
00:44:55.639 --> 00:44:59.239
slamming her skull into the concrete over and over again

772
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:03.760
to screen. Someone ran for help. The sault ended not

773
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:07.880
because Roy was finished, but because others had intervened. The

774
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:11.840
girl lived, and Roy was arrested that day in charged

775
00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:14.800
with assault with a deadly weapon. It's not clear if

776
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:18.079
it was after this event that Roy found himself at

777
00:45:18.119 --> 00:45:21.440
that Attascadero State Hospital or if he had been there

778
00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:25.760
before him was just returning, but the suicide attempt happened

779
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:29.440
somewhere in this range of time, the early nineteen seventies

780
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:33.360
and then the last event we have after Roy was

781
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:37.280
released from the hospital in nineteen seventy five, before he

782
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:41.800
met Larry at the California Men's Colony. This was Redondo

783
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:46.239
Beach in late summer nineteen seventy five. Again, the woman's

784
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:49.039
name has never been made public. She was walking to

785
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:52.559
her car, keys in hand, the sun just beginning to

786
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:58.280
set Roy was watching following her, She reached her car,

787
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:02.079
unlocked the door, and that when he struck, he forced

788
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:05.400
himself inside, threatening her, making it clear that she was

789
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:09.239
no longer in control. And then he drove not far,

790
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:12.199
but far enough to find the kind of place where

791
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:16.760
screams get swallowed by the dark. There in a remote location,

792
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:20.960
Roy Norris raped her repeatedly. When he was done, you

793
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:24.480
let her go again, This woman went straight to the police.

794
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:29.440
Roy was arrested, convicted, and sentenced to five years in prison,

795
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:34.760
except this time he was sent to a medium security facility,

796
00:46:35.159 --> 00:46:39.079
a place known as the California Men's Colony or CMC.

797
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:43.599
There behind the concrete and Shane Link, Roy Norris would

798
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:47.280
meet a man who shared his deepest in darkest fantasies,

799
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:51.079
a man who didn't just think about torture, but wanted

800
00:46:51.079 --> 00:46:55.719
to perfect it. That man was Lawrence Bittaker, and what

801
00:46:55.880 --> 00:46:59.599
began as idle prison talk, just two men sharing some

802
00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:02.960
sick ideas, would soon evolve into one of the most

803
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:08.960
sadistic killing partnerships California has ever seen. Coming up on

804
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:11.719
the next episode of Tapes from the Dark Side.

805
00:47:11.960 --> 00:47:14.519
Okay, so this is going to be a first time exclusive.

806
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:18.119
I've ever shown these letters to anybody, including you guys.

807
00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:23.320
Actually yeah, you know everybody has kind of heard about

808
00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:25.880
the name Richard Schuteman, who is one of the guys

809
00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:29.000
at CMC where they met and they you know, came

810
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:31.719
up with this plan of taking the van you know,

811
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:33.639
up into the mountain. So he was part of this

812
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:37.280
sexual deviant group in that prison, and he was the

813
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:40.199
one he was mentioned in the dock. So they actually

814
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:42.800
went up on the fire road. You see those famous

815
00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:46.159
pictures of like Roy pointing and like Bittaker bending down

816
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:50.159
to break the firelock. They sent these into Shootman saying like, oh,

817
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:54.239
we found a great spot to go camping. It's so secluded.

818
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:56.920
You know, this is their cue to Shootman, like, hey,

819
00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:58.280
we're going through with the plan.

820
00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:09.679
Thank you to everyone who supports us on Patreon. If

821
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:13.039
you're not supporting, please take a moment to just consider it.

822
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:15.920
You don't even have to support, Just think about it.

823
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.079
How it would feel to know you're supporting one of

824
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your favorite true crime podcasts, and you can choose how

825
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00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:29.880
three to seven dollars a month. We also have higher

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tiers which have some cool merch attached to them, and

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00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:35.840
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00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:38.639
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831
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and our legendary seven dollars a month members who you're

837
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kind of helping out the three dollar members there, so

838
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thank you very much for choosing to support at this rate,

839
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:37.039
Lindsey Brawley Hughes and Jade DeMoss. We have two new

840
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members at the Mug Club, ac K and Kayla Asthmus.

841
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Kayla joined for one year, Thank you so much for that.

842
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And our executive producer who pledges at thirty three dollars

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a month, which is just insane. Thank you so much,

844
00:49:53.880 --> 00:50:00.960
Alison Barkley. A quick reminder that you can use code

845
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Tapes sixty to get sixty percent off at magic Mind.

846
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:10.719
Thank you to Magic Mind for sponsoring this episode. A

847
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big thank you to Augusta Trebororum for allowing us to

848
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:19.280
use his music in today's episode. In to twenty six hundred,

849
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:24.719
whose song we have adapted for our main theme. A

850
00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:28.119
big thank you to the podcast partners in True Crime,

851
00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:31.320
which we used some of their footage today to tell

852
00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:35.159
our story. Of course it's all covered under fair use

853
00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:38.800
as we've only used small clips and it was transformative

854
00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:42.239
in nature. And maybe one day we'll get Laura Brand

855
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:45.039
to come on our podcast and tell us a little

856
00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:50.920
bit about her experience. Remember that Patreon is where you

857
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can find bonus episodes and ad free episodes. Consider becoming

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a Patreon member today and supporting the show. That's patreon

859
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dot com, slash tapes from the dark Side or check

860
00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:09.039
the show notes for a link. Until next time, try

861
00:51:09.320 --> 00:51:11.280
to enjoy the daylight.

862
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:19.880
The dark Side are dark Side City?

863
00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:23.039
What dark satted?

864
00:51:25.079 --> 00:51:25.800
Dark Sated?

865
00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:28.559
Get the hell out of my house.

866
00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:32.039
In Jesus' name, I pray