S11, Chapter 2: California Men's Colony

0:03 Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion is advised. The year nineteen seventy seven, two men are locked inside the California Men's Colony, a medium security state prison tucked away in the rolling hills of San Luis Obispo. It wasn't a fortress like San Quentin, it didn't house the state's most violent criminals, and yet its reputation was far from what you'd expect of a place that would soon become a breeding ground for one of the most sadistic criminal partnerships in modern history. Lawrence Bittaker was serving time for assault with the deadly weapon. That attack, like many of his crimes, seemed impulsive on the surface, but hinted at deeper urges simmering beneathwi. While Roy Norris was also behind bars, his rap sheet equally disturbing. He had been arrested multiple times for sexually motivated crimes, including one particularly brutal attack on a female student at San Diego State University.

1:15 They were housed in the same unit, They ate in the same mess hall. They had time to talk to Bond to compare notes, and what started a small talk between two sociopaths quickly turned into something darker. They discovered they shared a deep hatred for women. They fantasized about domination, about control, about pain. According to court records and interviews, the two became inseparable. They would spend hours talking about their past crimes, not with shame, but with excitement. They relished the details, and then they began imagining what they could do if they worked together. It was Larry who proposed they team up after their release, and he didn't want just a crime spree. He wanted a project, a kind of hunting expedition. They would build a custom van with sliding doors and no rear windows. They would stock it with tape, rope, handcuffs, and a toolbox. They would use it to kidnap teenage girls, not just to kill, but to torture, to record, to savor. Their goal, according to Norris's later confessions, was to abduct and murder one girl for each day of the week. Seven victims, seven lives, extinguished in seven different ways. They began rehearsing in prison, plotting scenarios, what to say, how to lure victims, how to keep them quiet. They even made a pact if

2:47 either one of them got cold feet or backed out, the other would kill him. No loose ends back in CMC Roy and Larry made a friend who will learn about. His name was Richard Shuteman. That's Shupeman shoopma n the serial killer whisperer we heard from in the last episode. Laura Brand corresponded with Shupeman up until he died in prison in twenty twenty. Now, during Larry Bittaker's nineteen eighty one trial, the defense called Schutman as witness. He testified that one Roy Norris had confided in him repeatedly about his sexual fantasies involving rape of young girls, and two that Roy claimed that the expression of shock and fear on a young girl's face was what sexually aroused him.

3:33 In contrast, Schupman said Bittaker spoke little to him about sex. Now we know all this because of the California Supreme Court's appellate decision in People Versus Bittaker nineteen eighty nine. The court summarizes Schutman's contribution, and this is the only direct quotation of Shutman found in the Pellet opinion, but it succinctly captures his testimony. Quote. Richard Schutman, a convict friend of defendant, and Norris said Norris had told him many times of his desire to rape young women. Norris said the look of shock and fear on the victim's face particularly aroused him. Defending, on the other hand, seldom talked to Schutman about sex.

4:13 So right after Larry died, Roy died and then I found Shutman and ironically he was down at Donovan where Norris was. So Norris and Schutman actually got reunited back together. Wow, enough, h that's crazy, really crazy. So I had wrote him and I just started asking just basic questions and diving in deeper into the case. And the first letter I got back he was I sent him a picture of me and Larry, so he knew it wasn't like, you know, bullshit, it was all true. And the first thing he said back is like, oh my God, like I can't believe it because you're blonde hair, blue eyes. And he was like Larry, because I, you know, disclosed to him stuff that Larry had told me. And he's like, really, you're the one, and it broke him, Like you're You're the one that opened him up. And I was like yeah, and so I started asking more questions and we corresponded for a while. We talked on the phone, and for the first time ever, I want to share some of these letters, especially his last letter to me and you guys, he's a big piece of this entire puzzle too.

5:24 Yeah. How much time did they spend together? Years? Years together? And so this is like part of their coffee talk that they would have on planning on what they're going to do when they get to the outside, or fantasizing this band of rapists and killers. Noraris said to me, he described it as a locker room talk. I was like, that's prison locker room talk. So they were all housed on D Block at CMC, but they were at the hobby shop, which is where they kind of like all congregated in the yard to the wood shop because Roy liked to make gemstones, and this is where the jewelry making comes into play. But yeah, these sexual debians would come together and make jewelry and talk about their sexual fantasies. But what I've discovered is a lot of this stuff was not fantasy. This was actually a lot of some real stuff, which is even crazier.

6:20 But they disguised it as fantasies. Yeah. So this is my correspondence with Richard Schutman, and he did testify at the trial. I started just with simple questions, you know, how did you meet Roy? And he says, you know, at CMC, we're on deep block. How did you meet Larry? He says the same thing, and he starts talking about how genius Larry was and how sophisticated he was. And he was very sophisticated about prison where Roy wasn't. So Bittaker was actually selling marijuana throughout the prison, and even when Bittaker got out before them, he was actually mailing marijuana into the prison under a big business name. I mean, this is what we're talking about in the seventies. But yeah, Bittaker did that. So he mailed Shootman and I'm talking about a lot in marijuana was getting side. I don't know, seventies, it's the seventies, you know, I have no idea. Bitaker told me. He was like, I got this post office box the bake LLC. He went, yeah, he told me like his I actually have a tape of him breaking it down of exactly how he did it. Yeah. So then Sheman was talking about how, you know, just genius Larry was. But he says that he was very condescending.

7:32 He could be arrogant about his you know, intelligence, but he talks about he actually talks about his love for Norris and how he owes Norris a lot because Norris, I guess, did a lot for him in prison. He wasn't making a lot of money. He was so shootman. Later he was selling these perverted sexual fantasy fantasies actually true, but that's how he was making his money. And then he was doing law advice later on for other inmates in charging Let's see, but I'll get into them. I said, what was Larry's personality like? He said, that's a tough question. First of all, he was effing genius, he really was, and I mean that. The problem is he would always he would always come up with a problem, a solution to any problem. The only bad part is he was a know it all, very condescending and always giving advice when not needed. His handwriting is very hard to read.

8:28 He was something of stuck up. But maybe that's just my insecurity of myself. But that's what he's about Larry's personality. He describes Roy's personality as really friendly but not prison savvy at all. That's interesting. Yeah, you know they were both Korea criminals too. But I said, do you have any fond memories of either of them? I could appreciate Larry's mind. He's going back to the intelligence. Mine was a one four, So I do see some insecurities with him against Larry. And by the way, a lot of people think that Roy was a dummy. Roy was not. Roy was high superior. He was one twenty five. For the record, I mean they were both Yeah is genius mensa.

9:14 So Larry was one thirty eight, Roy was one twenty five. He wasn't a dummy as like I mean comparatively that may seem like, you know, Roy was kind of a dummy against Bittagar, but he wasn't a dummy by nummy. I think it's just really interesting how they kept him in the loop on all their stuff. Oh everything. It's like they and he probably said, you know, probably said let me know what you're doing, you know. No, he really was like a secret third member for them. Yeah. What did Bitterer say about him though? Oh, he said he was totally involved, like they were sending him letters. He was part of like all the sexual fantasies back at CMC, and then when he was dying, he said, go to him if you have any more questions.

9:55 So I mean that should tell you and not right there. Yeah, Gerry sent me pictures of Andrea when she found out he was going to kill her. I'm not going to go into the details of these pictures. No, no, Yeah, he lays it all out for you. He lays it all out. Yeah. Even more disturbing is that he I later asked him, you know where all these pictures were covered, because they did send people to go find these photos, and he says no, because I was renting these pictures out. And I called Stephen Kay and I said, not all the pictures that Bennifer Norris took were were covered at CMC.

10:36 Shutman was writing them out, and he's like, you've got to be kidding me. That's right. Larry and Roy were mailing graphic rape and snuff photos to Richard Schuteman in prison, and Richard was quote unquote renting out these photographs to other inmates. The search of Richard Schutman cell at the California Men's Colony happened late in the investigation after detectives had found letters from him to both Norris and Bittaker in Norris's residence. The discovery gave them probable cause to believe he might have additional incriminating materials. That search happened in nineteen seventy nine. In December, about a month after Norris was arrested and began cooperating, a search warrant was issued after investigator's link shootment to the defendants via correspondence. The affidavid included details from Norris's statements prior searches and information that Shuotman had received photographs of young girls from Bittaker and or Norris.

11:33 Court records state that officers seized fourteen photographs, some depicting nude or partially nude young females, five letters to which were admitted into evidence at trial, and there were other miscellaneous correspondents in papers that tied him to Norris and Bittaker. Here's what we know from the appellet summary what was in the letters. At least one letter from Bittaker contained a photograph of a nude young girl preparing to perform oral sex on a man. Another letter referenced Norris's disturbing sexual interest, similar to what Schuteman testified about, and some letters discussed locations like potential dump sites or reference past events in vague but incriminating ways. Bittaker's lawyers claimed the warrant was based on insufficient probable cause and that Shootman's possession of the items was irrelevant, but the California Supreme Court upheld the search, saying the affidavit established a clear link between Shootman and the crimes, making the seizure lawful and the evidence admissible.

12:36 So photographs like this could still be in a prison, they would just be circulating because they can't take them out, They can't transfer them. They would just be given to another inmate and kept withinside the prison. And if they had already been found, they would have already been turned over to the police and the prosecutor, which they have not been. So right now, all my offenders that have transferred to CMC are on the lookout for very specific photographs if they are still, you know, within CMC. They could still be there. It could be they do, I mean, porn does stay within the prison, so hopefully we can recover them. I asked him, what was the surprised was he surprised about the crime, He said, no, huge letter is explain exclamation point.

13:20 The boys are both on parole, and before that we had spent years talking and spending time about what they were going to do and show us up the humanitation. Yet we would write stories prison is a school for criminals. Very true. I just find it fascinating how they included him on this stuff, not knowing, you know, what their end result was going to be, and you know, because it's including more people with information that could lead to their arrest. You know, it's like exactly they say, there's. Only you know, the only way three people can keep the secret is if two were dead. Right, exactly exactly. I'm going to read this next paragraph to you. You can. I'm just I'm just gonna read it. Okay.

14:05 So personally, I have convicted. I am convicted for a first degree murder. We'll be right back after this quick break. Don't go anywhere. I'm gonna read this next paragraph to you. You can. I'm just I'm just gonna read it. Okay. So personally, I have convicted. I am convicted for a first degree murder. Of course, I talked to my friends about my case and how I how I did it. I don't know if you're old enough to remember it, But back in the seventies and eighties, hitch hiking was a real was real common. My thing was to pick up hitchhiking girls.

14:56 I was. I was only in my twenties, so fat with glasses and came across very unsuspecting the only okay, so he says, this is where he failed. He was but then I brought a friend in who got cold feet and turned me in. Have you ever encountered anything like this? So he was trying to pair up with someone. And then you have Bittaker and Norse, who are a pair. Now they're a throuble because the three of them are doing right literally, so it is then Jackson and then there's Joe Jackson. There was Jackson. It's like yeah, so by the way, Jackson was in d block with them in their little you know, jewelry making whatever.

15:39 Yeah, why would they risk like having a partner like that? Well, this is this is actually very typical for sexual satis. It ups the thrill for them when they have a partner or. Something they share is. Being the anti for them, Like this is like, yeah, it's. An audience exactly performative. This is why a lot of them take cassette tapes, videotapes. This is very common for sexual status. They want to relive it, they want to share it with the other person. They want to and that's why they flocked together. That's why you're seeing like the the two songs. I mean, look at you know in Lake and you know Shermantine. You know, it's just like, look at all these cases.

16:20 And the problem was that Larry and Roy used the hitchhiker trick. But the DA put them against each other as codefended and that's what did them in so putting them against each other. Yeah, did I get together with Roy in here? Sure? I actually lived in the same building with him and we got together for hours. This is after his arrest too. Yeah. Yeah, what do you mean by get together? What does that mean? And talking about their crimes? I guess I mean what a. Strange group and serial killers? And it was. More than just Jackson, Bittaker, Norris and Chootman actually, which is even more just.

17:04 Did Shutman say anything about Ntsberry Farm? That's coming up? Actually, let's see what question was this? Oh? I asked them? I so Okay, Bittaker and Norris couldn't remember the ice pick through the ear movie, so I asked Shuotman if you remember the exact movie. He said, no, I don't remember the name of the movie with the ice picked in the ear because I remember watching it with them. It was in the late seventies. The plot was a group of girls college age were on a yacht in the Mediterranean and the boat was hijacked. At least one of the girls was killed an ice pick to the ear. I remember that. We all talked about it. Everyone knew how much it hurts to get anything stuck in your ear. We all think, I'm not going to read the next part.

17:48 Now, don't, please, don't. It's awful. It's just even thinking about. What's really disturbing is that they picked this up from a movie. So this part he keeps talk about how much you was Roy, which is really weird. Were they having like a homosexual relationship. I don't know, because that was always you know, speculated about, you know, Bitaker and Roy, And that is typical for sexual status too, is they will cross lines like for them, It's just it doesn't. Matter, right, Why would there be any kind of lines for these guys. No, and actually a lot of sexual status have reported to me is actually up from a female because when they dominate a male, that's even more powerful to them, which is what they're seeking is the power. So they're much more likely to actually go after a male because that's the greatest quote unquote power to them, is to dominate a male. Okay, but Norris was the opposite. He had a really good family. The only thing and Norris said to me, he say to me, he was like, I had a great family. He goes, I would go the roller rink with my sister every Friday. We had the best time. And I was like, so, what the hell happened?

18:53 Like, right, what happened? What happened? And he would say to me. The only thing he reported to me, he was like, the only thing to think of, Laura, is you know my grandparents would come over and degrade my mother. They would call her a whore, a bitch like and I'm like, well that's pretty significant, you know your grandparents, you know, degrading female figure in a sexualized passion, especially that could have profound effects. Vitaker was very into it, not just the sadistic aspects of the rape, but loved to do the mind like literally put fear into the girls, is what he's saying. The psychological torture is what Bittager was into.

19:34 Roy was just into the sexual fear of the rapes. Bittaker was into the psychological aspects along with the sexual. Aspects, or to say, pillow talk right right. But Bittaker was the one who taught us a lot of things. So this obviously he's obviously saying that Fitteger's been a pro for a while, which we've known, and even Shootin's learned a lot from him. There there was one guy I've been trying to track down who was also part of this group, and he was paroled at the same time they were. His name is James Fleming, and there's a lot of them and I've still been trying to track him down. Common name, very common name that I've been calling every James Fleming in the state of California. I'm surprised I found Joe Jackson because his I know, but James Fleming I am still looking for.

20:25 And then I have a John Blake of course, like the most common names part of this sexual group inside of samse who were all paroled to Los Angeles. Wow, the same time except for treatment, but a lot of them were yeah, oh wow, yeah, and the same m O. I wasn't the quote unquote teacher, that was Fittaker, he said, And that's what I've always had like he loved being the teacher. Bittaker loved being the teacher. It's I can't. The teacher of the most statistic things you can ever imagine. By the time they were released, Norris first in January nineteen seventy nine and Bittaker a few months later in October, they had their plan. They had each other One detail stands out, something small but telling. In prison, Bittaker had been the more dominant of the two. He was smarter, more calculating. He read books, took notes, studied people. He wasn't impulsive. He was deliberate, strategic, and he would become the planner. Roy Norris, by contrast, was emotionally volatile, prone to sudden bursts of aggression, a follower by nature, and he would become the enforcer. Together they created a deadly symmetry.

21:44 One man was the mind, the other the muscle. By the fall of nineteen seventy nine, they were back on the streets of Los Angeles, and before long they had everything they needed. A silver nineteen seventy seven GMC cargo van nicknamed Murdermack toolbox stocked with pliers, by scripts, an ice pick, and a sledgehammer, duct tape, rope, wirehangers, alcohol, a Polaroid camera, and a cassette recorder. Stay tuned till after the credits. Today we have an interesting piece of audio for you, so I think you're gonna want to stick around. You've been listening to tapes from the Dark Side.

22:27 I'm your host, t Z Borden. Firstly, thank you to everyone who supports us on Patreon. We have a pretty amazing story coming to you on Patreon this month. I'm actually going to be recording it right now, and it features writing from Josh Lammy, who is of Obscura fame. He wrote some scripts for Obscura back in the day, some scripts that went viral. This is one of the best episodes I think we've done. I'm excited for it. Thank you to all of our Darksiders, Ryan m Jerry Saunders, Damian Gonzalez, Lori, Alexander Sellers, Blue Legged Bard, Lori Lawless, Petro Quarto, Jason Oreger, Heather Wine, Vicky Tchi, Thomas, Greg Keel, Andrew Lee, Briston, David Angelica Lyon, Lilith Morris who subscribed for a year, Lindsay Choy who also subscribed for a year, and Jeffrey Duncan, another yearly member. Thank you to our five dollar darksiders, Jennifer di konink. I hope I said that right. I probably said it wrong. Vanessa Galindo, Nabby Kristen Brooks, Amanda Nolder and Mary Wirt. We have a couple six dollar darksiders Laura and Aspen m and our seven dollar darksiders Lindsay Brawley, Hughes, Darien Roch and Live Crimson.

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25:48 Really. Oh and I think I forgot to say the site, but if you want to support us on Patreon, the website is patreon dot com. Slash tapes from the Dark Side and until next time, try to enjoy the daylight. All right? So here is This was dated five thirty twenty. Dear Laura, Sorry, but I'm not going to be able to help you anymore or answer any more questions about Roy and Larry. I have been undergoing treatment for a blood disorder for the past three years. The doctors thought it it was under control, but it didn't work out that way. I have the best doctors, but I've just recently gotten very sick. They have recently run some tests and it's developed into acute leukemia. It's advanced. My doctor is one of the best out there, and I've had any chance. He's the one to treat it, but he says it's over of days or weeks. All they can do now is try to help me ease the pain and make it as comfortable for me as possible. I wish I could be around. There are a lot of more there are a lot more stories I would like to divulge to you. Again. I'm sorry to end it like this. I really hate to break a promise to you.

27:21 There's a lot more you need to know. Believe me, I really hate this. I wish I had more time. The only question I can answer, the one question you asked me about the hitchhikers. I can answer that. Now there are eight and you can figure out where they are. Oh my gosh, so he was a serial. Killer and he ended it just like Larry. Yeah, there's a lot more and you can figure out where they are. I've given you the tools. A dark side, what doors, dark Savage, get the hell out of my house. In Jesus' name, I pray H