S9, Chapter 6: Requiem for a Son

0:04 Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion is advised. I think everyone has a bit of a fascination of the dark Side. I think it's something that he could leave longspns. The look in his eyes was absolute horror, horror like he'd seen the devil and he had he was whipped the devil. Hi that Josh Clancy from the Sunday Times of London.

1:14 You spoke about cardier pulmonary arrest. What kind of things might cause cardier pulmonary arrest? I mean, because it sounds to me like, you know, physical abuse might be something that could bring that on. Could you said a little more about that. We have we have no certain or verifiable information about what happened to Otto prior to his departure from North Korea, but in general terms, one of the more likely causes of a cardio pulmonary arrest and a young person would have been a respiratory arrest. Hi, Miguel Marcus from CNN on on your MRI and scans that you did of mister Warmbier, did there was there any indication of trauma to any part of them? Were there any fractures any anything in the head or parts of other parts of the body.

2:06 And would you know if he were in a coma for quite some time, if he had suffered a heart attack or something that would cut off blood supplies of the brain, would you be able to tell at this point that he suffered botulism, took a sleeping pill, had some other cause, allergic reaction, or some sort of reaction to something he took. There, well, there are several questions put together there. I'm gonna doctor for mental answer addressed the boutulism question. Let me let me address the question of injuries. Among the battery of tests we performed, we examined all the long bones of the body, a skeletal survey. We've looked at the bony structures of the ribs, the pelvis, the skull, and he's had CT scans of the chest, abdomen, and pelvis. In those scans, we see no evidence of an acute or healing fracture, including the skull. The batulism question, yea, as it relates to bachulish. As you know, it's a toxin that causes nerve injury, and so as part of his evaluation with us, we performed electromography and nerve conduction studies. Those tests did not reveal any evidence of active or chronic innervation, nor any repetitive stimulation that would suggest active batulism.

3:30 At this time, can you talk about how long a patient in this kind of condition might be expected to go on? At the request to the family, they wish us to keep those discussions private and confidential, so we will refrain from speculating about what might happen in the future to him. What's the likelihood or the plausibility of the story put forward by the North Koreans that bought plus a sleeping pill led to this result. Have there been cases similar to this where that particular combination, It seems very rare in a sort of random I just wanted to get your professional opinion about the plausibility of that explanation from the North Koreans. It would it would be really hard to speculate on anything related to his condition or treatment prior to his departure from North Korea at this time. It would be very difficult for us to say we have limited information. I just wanted to clarify at Doctor Foreman, you say you didn't find any evidence whatsoever of botulism at all. That's correct. Yeah, sorry, Lindsay Jannis, ABC News. You said something about about a respiratory arrest.

4:45 What would trigger that. There are many causes of respiratory arrest. They can stem from intoxication to trauma. There can be other causes in a young person, but in general, respiratory arrest and a young, otherwise healthy person, it's a rare event and generally caused by something like an intoxication or traumatic injury. For any three of you that what Auto has suffered in his brain is this? Are we talking ir reversible damage? Can he recover from this? What is his brain going through or will it go through long term? Well? As as I delineated, there's severe injury to all regions of the brain. But because of the family sensitivity, we are going to reframe him discussing what that holds, the future holds for him, given his condition.

5:33 Can you tell if he's been given good care for the last year plus since he's been in this condition. We still, of course don't know for sure what transpire before he arrived. We can describe his condition upon arrival. His skin was in good condition and he was well nourished when he arrived at our facility. How does it work? I'm sorry, Miguel from se how does it work? So if one suffers that sort of event where the blood stops flowing through the brain, is the damage done all at once? Or what was that evolution of change that you saw from March March to July and then presently what we have. Did it get progressively worse or was this all the damage done in one The evolving changes on the AMRI are consistent with tissue evolution.

6:28 Tissue evolution, not new damage. So as the tissue is initially damaged, the body tries to remove the damage tissue. So those are the kind of changes we're seeing. Is the removal of the damage tissue by the bodies own internal housecaping mechanisms. But the damage to the brain from a cardiopummee rast occurs within minutes of inadequate blood flow and want to come out. Okay. We do see respiratory arrest from an overdose for medication overdose intentional and otherwise it would be inappropriate for me to speculate about the intent or whether this was a misadministration of a medication. Again, we have very limited information about what happened to Otto prior to his departure from North Korea. Two quick questions here.

7:15 One, mister Warrenbier and his press conference today criticized the North Korean regime about withholding top notch medical care from their son. I just wanted to get your opinions about whether in this ordeal you think he has had access to top notch medical care. And then the second question, the term you mentioned unresponsive unresponsive wakefulness, that he does have some eye movement from time to time, can you tell if there is any recognition on his part about his surroundings. I can take both of those. So in terms of his medical care and North Korea, we have absolutely no information about the care that you received there, so it would there's no way I can speculate on his care there. What I can tell you is is here we've we've really taken a lot of effort to make sure we've addressed any problems that he may be having, including his comfort, including symptoms related to the extensiveness of his brain injury. With regard to the state of a responsive wakefulness that he is currently in the way that we evaluate him to be able to determine that is based on a lack of consistent and persistent responses to stimulation within his environment. So as we attempt to interact with him, give him verbal direction or verbal cues, he has no consistent responses to those. In our evaluation based on standard comer recovery scales, scores, and those sorts of things, in addition to our imaging and electro

8:46 diagnostics, we don't feel at this time that he has any conscious awareness that he is in this persistent excuse me, in this unresponsive wakefulness state and Thompson w VXU here in Cincinnati. So of course, the speculation was that he was badly beaten. So what if any evidence did you see on the MRI of any injuries trauma like that the MRI. As I said previously, the type and pattern of damage we see on the MRI is normal. Is not the type we normally see with traumatic brain injury. It's the type we normally see with cardiopulmonary arrest. We're going to take two more questions and then we will conclude. Are there more tests that you've had them here for about forty hours, is there more that can be learned over time? Or have you guys essentially done the battery of tests, and essentially this is what we know and as far as we will get and have to wait. Yeah, you know, we wanted to perform a complete evaluation for his current state, and so that's those tests have been done. At this time, I think we have a fairly complete view of his current state. Further tests down the line, you know, at this point are going to rely on on decision making on prognostic discussions with the family, which, as we've said, are private at the st so Cheryl Stolberg of the New York Times. Again, American intelligence officials have said that he was singled out for particularly brutal beatings, and so I'm wondering did he show any body scars or is it your opinion that he was not beaten. As I said, there were no fractures of the

10:18 bones that we can detect, and there were minor blemishes on his skin that are thought to be consistent with medical care and intravenous lines. We did not see any skin indications that are strongly suggestive of mistreatment. But that was but beyond that, we cannot speculate on what might have occurred in the past. Thank you. We value our media partners to share the story accurately. Thank you, doctor cantor doctor Bottom. How has it been explained to you what North Korea did? When you say torture, what did they do? Do you know? We know North Korea doesn't even acknowledge that they considered it a humanitarian gesture sending Auto home. His teeth looked like they had been rearranged with a pair of pliers. You can only look at the evidence. A perfectly healthy young American visiting there. An innocent young American comes home with severe brain damage. But it's not like it happened and they shipped him home immediately.

11:24 It's a year later. These people are terrorists. Kim and his regime intentionally injured Otto. So how do we explain this discrepancy. One of the only things that I've been able to come up with is that perhaps the shock upon seeing Auto in his kind of half coma that he was in caused some kind of break from reality for all his parents. Maybe his teeth had shifted a little bit over the year that he was kept in North Korea, but perhaps everything appeared exaggerated to that at the time. I know that when I've gone through a particularly traumatic event, my memory can play tricks on me of a hard time remembering details, and sometimes things I think I remember are completely wrong.

12:15 This is all to say that I don't place any blame on Otto's parents for really anything in this situation. Can't imagine the tragedy they were going through, and they were about to face one of the most difficult decisions that they had ever had to face. On June nineteenth, twenty seventeen, six days after he had been released, Otto's parents made the heartbreaking decision to request that is feeding to be removed. Ottawarren Beier died at two twenty pm June nineteen, twenty seventeen, at the age of twenty two. I just wanted to pass onward at Otto Warmbier has just passed away. He spent a year and a half in North Korea. A lot of bad things happened, but at least we got him home to be with his parents where they were so happy to see him, even though he was in very tough condition. But he just passed away a little while ago. It's a brutal regime and we'll be able to handle it. I raised Otto different than I was raised. I have a lot of fear and tentativeness about what I should do, and I

13:50 wanted Otto to be empowered, to not be afraid to grab onto everything he could in the world and live a really full life. I had no idea when he took the tour to North Korea. What he was walking into North Korea to me, is a cancer on the earth. And if we ignore this cancer, it's not going to go away. It's going to kill all of us. We don't even know we have this cancer. So that's why I talk. Otto was all about love and goodness. He had a job, his dream job on Wall Street as soon as he graduated. He got that his junior year. He always saw the best in people. If I ever was critical, he would call me on it. And he just always saw the best in people. So I know when they took AUTO that he thought he'd be released because he knew he didn't do anything. When he thought, if I play by their rules, they're gonna let me go. And I know he was sorry he ever went into that god forsaken place. But unless we keep the pressure on North Korea, they are not going to change.

15:24 And I am very afraid that we're going to let up on this pressure. So I need everyone here, to keep the pressure on everybody you can. I'm going to tell you what it was like when I saw Otto when he got off the plane. Well, no, I went on the plane. My gorgeous boy through every girl had an immediate crush on look like a monster. I swear the look in his eyes, which I didn't know he was blind at the time, was absolute horror. Horror like he'd seen the devil and he had he was with the devil. Okay, enough negativity.

16:19 I have to write down positive things so I stay positive. First of all, I have so much gratitude to meet all the Japanese dignitaries, family members who have so much restraint and honor. I'm sorry I can't exhibit the same restraint, but I know they've forgive me. Then I want to thank the American government. They brought Otto home. You can see the Japanese are desperately trying to do the same. We have to bring our family members home.

17:06 We have to come together on this issue. This should not be a partisan issue. This is a problem. This is not only a nuclear problem. This is a problem that we're dealing with absolute evil. We can ignore it like I would have had this not happened to me, but I can't guarantee that something bad's not going to happen if we leave things alone. At the request of Auto's parents, an autopsy was not performed. This is frustrating, but it's understandable, as an autopsy didn't necessarily guarantee that the family would learn anything more, and I could understand wanting to keep Auto's body, even in death, intact out of respect for the dead. Though it's impossible for me, as someone personally invested in this story, to not wonder if maybe there was something that could have been gained through an autopsy. Help me understand, because looking at the doctors, they said, you know, it suffered extensive loss of brain tissue consistent with cardiopulmonary arrest, was in a stative unresponsive wakefulness.

18:18 Didn't know what causes brain damage, they say. He didn't show any obvious indications of trauma or evidence of either acute or healing fractures. Why opt out of an autopsy, That's a really good question. Absolutely, yeah, Otto and our family have been through enough enough. We were Otto was abandoned by his family, his country, and the rest of the world. He was kidnapped in North Korea. He was isolated from his family and the world. He was paraded in front of their popular Our family and Otto were humiliated by the North Koreans and if Ultimately, when Kim aid the decision, Otto was tortured and essentially murdered. Enough enough Auto Auto needs to be at Otto is at peace, and it's about time. Yeah, I wasn't going to let him out of my sight and I didn't. And she did a visual.

19:19 Our coroner did a visual. And then she's the one that brought up that huge scar on his foot. What happened to his foot? We don't know, You have no idea. It covered the entire top of his foot. How do you get a scar that covers the entire top of your foot? It looked like she said, it had to be an open wound for months and months and months. What is the US government said to you? We don't, we don't. We don't engage with them at this level. And it's not that we can't. We don't need to ask them what a condition or what happened to Otto in general? In general, I mean, obviously you want the designation, What kind of what, any of any information has the government given to you? None, none, in fact, in fact, we don't need it right and we're not here to badmouth the Obama administration, the State Department, any of them. This is solely the responsibility of the Kim regime, Kim and his regime, and nobody should go there ever. Nobody needs to go there. It was legal. He went with the tour group. Nobody needs to go there. You know, the Wall Street Journal just went there. They show you what they want you to see.

20:36 So why are we playing into this? Why do we play into this at all anymore? I mean, I don't want to see anyone else hurt or taken. That's also why you're speaking out. Oh yeah. Otto was laid to rest on June twenty second. His funeral was at the Wyoming High School in Ohio. More than twenty five hundred people attended. He's buried at Oak Hill Cemetery in Glendale. As you prepared to leave while in high school, it feels like they goodbye to a close friend. They're the prophetic words of the late Otto warm Beer saying a final goodbye to his graduating class. But there's also a different kind of goodbye. A feelwell was something larger than just a friend. Just four years later at that same high school, it would be his family and friends who would bid him farewell. He was just like full of eternal optimism and hope. I think he is a gift to all of us. He was a one of a kind that he inspired us, all mourners paying their respects to the twenty two year old whose promise seemed limitless. On display at the funeral, the quiet testimonies of Otto's belongings, shoes, his wallet, his passport, relics of a journey that began with hope and ended in horror. It's just unacceptable and unthinkable to nightmare relic.

21:57 Thousands in attendance, all all trying to make sense of what happened to the American tourist who for seventeen months was detained in North Korea. And as America mourns Otto's death, I wish there was a way to know that you're in the good old days before you've actually left them. Back at his high school, his friends remember his bright spirit. He said, we'll always have each other talking about our class. And I think now more than ever, that's Billy Billy showing to be true. And Otto would want that, and we'll have to be rerun, the memories we've created to be played over and over again. Thank you for Nightline. I'm Bob Woodruth in New York. Before Otto's body was even in the ground, the conversation online took an unexpectedly toxic turn coming up after the break. Otto Warmbier's parents are ultimately to blame for him growing up thinking he can get away with whatever he wanted. Maybe in the US, we're young, rich, white, clueless males routinely get away with raping women, but not so much in North Korea. And remember, you can skip the ads on Apple Plus or by joining at patreon dot com slash tapes from the Dark Side. We'll be right back, stay with us.

23:17 I debated even putting this in the episode, but I think it's part of this story, and I think there is something to learn here about how we talk about true crime cases and about how we treat victims families. Comedian Larry Wilmore joked about the Auto Warmber situation in twenty sixteen now Tonight stories about the North Korean government, which recently captured one of America's most annoying exports of frat bro Otto Frederick Warmber is a University of Virginia student now being detained by North Korea. Hold on one second, can I hear that name again? Otto, Frederick Warmbier, Otto fred Rick Warmbier, did this gig get arrested in North kree and then just gave the cop this fake ID. Yes, sir, we've got American student Otto warmber This was before Otto was sentenced to fifteen years of hard labor, and it's a year before he was returned and a full year before he died. Larry made a statement in twenty seventeen where he said, quote, I just wanted to say and to say very clearly and directly that, especially in light of these events, I want to express my sincere condolences the Warrembeer family. They lost a kid. I would never try to defend doing a comedy show against the loss of a child, and Fred and Cindy Warrenbeer. I want to humbly apologize. At the end of the day, I could care less about a stupid comedy show. But there

24:49 is someone else important to the story that never apologized, and that's a professor at the University of Delaware named Katherine Detweiler. A day before the funeral, before his body was even in the ground. Katherine took to her public Facebook profile and wrote a post quote, is it wrong of me to think that Otto Warmbier got exactly what he deserved? He went to North Korea for fuck's sake, and then acted like a spoiled, naive, arrogant US college student who's never had to face the consequences of his actions. I see him crying at his sentence and hearing and think, what did you expect? How about a few moments of thought given to all the other people in North Korea who are suffering under the repressive government there. Just because they are North Koreans and not US citizens, we shouldn't care about them. I think that our podcast coverage on Autowarmbier shows that we can both show sympathy for Autowarmbier and his family and also show sympathy for the North Korean citizens. Even though Katherine is a college professor, it's clear that she didn't do her homework. She apparently missed the part where Otto was one of the smartest in his class. By all accounts, was kindhearted, hardworking, and humble. Katherine Dettwiler also took to the comments section of a National Review article on Autowarmbier, where she wrote, quote, this is typical mindset of a lot of young, white, rich,

26:23 clueless males who come into my classes. These are the same kids who cry about their grades because they didn't think they'd really have to read and study the material to get a good grade. She also says that quote Ottowarmbier's parents are ultimately to blame for him growing up thinking he can get away with whatever he wanted. Maybe in the US, where young, rich, white, clueless males routinely get away with raping women, but not so much in North Korea. One thing I would ask you to try to check yourself when you're engaging with true crime online. The families of the victims are human beings. They read social media, they see what you post, they read your comments, and your words have very real consequences, and in Katherine Detwiler's case, the consequences were swift. She was fired by the University of Delaware for comments, and the university issued a public apology. I found Katherine Debtwiler's Facebook account, and I've reached out and privately messaged her to extend a chance to apologize for these insensitive and mean spirited comments she made, she has not responded.

27:33 When I decide to cover a case like Auto Warm Beers, even when I'm writing and recording the story, I never really stop researching and in telling this story. One thing I think that people online commenting miss, or maybe take for granted. The grainy footage that we got from the security camera on the second floor, not the fifth floor, is of such low resolution that it's impossible to tell if it is Auto. There's a screen grab that appears in a video by Global News dot CoA that appears to show Auto's face in that hallway, but it's just one still image. The figure we see at the end of the hallway messing with the sign is only vaguely similar to the screen grab we see featuring what appears to be Auto. North Korea is a country where lies and deception rule today, and with Auto Warmber gone in US, unable to trust anything. The North Korean government says, the unfortunate truth is that we may never know exactly what happened on the night of January one, twenty sixteen. Under the video that purported to show Auto warm Beer stealing the sign, one of the comments reads, we should have sentences like that.

28:48 Here in the USA, fifteen years hard labor, maybe less crime will happen. If you believe that, I would ask you to go fuck yourself, and also consider moving to North Korea if that's the kind of society you want to live in, where you'd go to a concentration camp because someone accused you of touching a sign. On a more positive note, Otto Warmbier's family was invited to attend the State of the Union speech. Undoubtedly there were politics at play given the setting, that's obvious, but in a country torn by partisan politics, I believe this was a rare moment of unity that is worth cherishing.

29:32 They were verbally recognized by Donald Trump and received a thirty nine second standing ovation. Wonderful parents, Fred and Cindy Warmbier are here with us tonight, along with Otto's brother and sister, Austin and Greta. Please camera cuts to a medium close up on Fred and Cindy's faces as they stand, Tears streamed down both of their faces. Otto's parents were initially critical of the Obama administration's handling of their son's imprisonment in North Korea, and when under Donald Trump's presidency, Otto was returned They looked to Donald as not exactly a savior, but at least as someone who did what the former president couldn't or wouldn't. He brought their son home. But Trump later flip flopped on his strong stance against Kim Jong ou, and in twenty nineteen he made statements that are in opposition who his previous stance. He said that he didn't believe that Kim Jongoon would

31:03 have allowed Auto to be tortured, and he said he would take Kim Jongoon's word that he had nothing to do with Auto's death. You have a personal relationship, and I believe Vice President Pence does, with the family of Ottowarmbier. I'm wondering you've talked about this week's about Kim Jong oun being my friend. You called him on Twitter, he said, you have a great relationship. Have you in Singapore? Were here confronted Kim Jongoon about Ottowarmbier's death. I have asked him to take responsibility. What do you say to you and why do you call him your friend? I have and I have and I have talked about it, and I really don't think it was in his interest at all. I know the Warmbier family very well. I think they're an incredible family. What happened is horrible. I really believe something very bad happened to him, and I don't think that the top leadership knew about it.

31:53 And when they had to send him home, by the way, I got the prisoners back, I got the hostages back. I don't believe that he would have allowed that to happen. Just wasn't to his advantage to allow that to happen. Those prisons are rough, they're rough places, and bad things happened. But I really don't believe that he was he I don't believe he knew about it. Did he say did he tell you that? He did not tell He felt badly about it, and did speak to him. He felt very badly, but he knew the case very well. But he knew it later. And you know, you got a lot of people at Big Country, a lot of people, and in those prisons and those camps, you have a lot of people, and some really bad things happened to otto, some really really bad things. Why are you But he tells me, he tells me that he didn't know about it, and I will take him at his word, And yes, ma'am, go ahead, aaron's of an American college student who died after being held in a North Korean prison, spoke out today after hearing President Trump say he believes Kim Jong un knew nothing about their son's mistreatment. Otto Warm's parents have expressed their appreciation of the President in the past, but that seems to have changed. Here's Eeril Barnett. Fred and Cindy Wombia said today they could no longer remain silent. The parents of Ottowambia release this statement blaming North Korean dictator Kim Jong un and his regime of unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity for the death of their son. Today, in a tweet, the President attempted to clarify those remarks. I never liked being misinterpreted,

33:28 but especially when it comes to Ottowambia and his great family, he wrote, of course, I hold North Korea responsible for Otto's mistreatment and death. Fred and Cindy released a statement in response to Trump's words, quote, we have been respectful during this summit process, but now we must speak out. Kim and his evil regime are responsible for the death of our son Otto. Kim and his evil regime are responsible for unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity. No excuses or lavish praise can change that Fred and Cindy took North Korea to court, granted it was in the United States, and that court decided that they were owed by the country five hundred and one million dollars in damages for the torture and death of Auto. The last piece of news from this story is a detail that would make any conspiracy theorists giddy. And this is another fact I debated putting into the episode, but it is a fact, and I think that I owe it to you all to report on it. In two and twenty two, two hundred and forty thousand dollars was seized from a North Korean bank account. The money was taken because it was ruled it could potentially be used to fund a terrorist operation. The exact amount, two hundred and forty thousand, three hundred and forty dollars was paid out to Fred and Cindy, which iff you will recall in Auto's confession, which I have to add was

34:59 almost certain scripted by North Korea and therefore false. He says that if he were captured by the North Korean government, the friendship United Methodist Church would guarantee the payments to his parents of the amount of two hundred thousand dollars. The fact that these two numbers are so similar appears to be coincidence. So she offered me a used car worth ten thousand dollars if I was successful, and she said if I was detained and not returned, her church would make payment to my mother of two hundred thousand dollars in a way of a charitable donation.

35:44 This is the amount that I am expected to pay for my brother and sisters university tuition out of the four hundred thousand dollars total. Then she showed me the Friendship United Methodist Church's official bank account statement with forty two million dollars. Well. At first, due to fear, I was hesitant, but since my family suffers from severe financial difficulties, I started to consider this as my only golden opportunity to earn money. Most importantly, Sharon said to never mention the Friendship United Methodist Church or no payos would God so only October two thousand and fifteen, I'm tz Borden. Thank you for joining me in this season of tapes from the Dark Side. Can you believe it's been ten seasons.

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40:22 She's available for freelance work at Carrissa dot College at gmail dot com. Our main theme was adapted from music by twenty six hundred. Additional music provided by Augusta Trevororum and Emmanuel Witzoon. You can find all the links to the music in the show in the show notes, as well as links to all of the articles and video clips that we featured. Thank you again for listening, and remember, until next time, try to enjoy the daylight. But this man came over. Man came from