S7, BONUS: Eric's Mother

0:01 The conversation I'm about to play for you, I believe is one of the most unique pieces of audio that is out there. It's a conversation between Eric Carter Lundeen and his mother, Brenda, And what makes this conversation so special is that it's actually the first time that they've ever talked about the death of Jacob. Not only that, but it's the first time they talked about anything involving who we've called John up until this point and the abuse that he subjected them both to. This audio is also available on Eric's podcast feed True Consequences, and he's given me permission to redistribute it here on my feed to you all. So after you listen to this episode, if he'll do me a favor and search for True Consequences and subscribe to Eric's show, I would really appreciate that he has been so generous to myself our show in being fully candid with everything involving his story and his brother's story, And I just want to say I'm very grateful to Eric for that. If you haven't yet listened to the Jacob Jeremiah Lundeen season, i'd recommend listen to those four episodes before you listen to this. There's quite a bit of this dialogue that I used in my telling of this story. But there's also a lot of this conversation that you haven't heard before. So now, without talking about it anymore, let

1:33 me play for you the conversation between Eric Carter Lundean and his mother. Why don't we start with you telling me about Jacob? What' you remember about him? I just remember he was funny, and he liked to love, and he liked to put yours and make all the silverware flayout. And he is just a silly boy who's really smart, like for being a bag. It was so smart. It was like ridiculous how smart he was. I remember like he used to take the swing and whenever between forward he would grab the front legs of the baby swing and like throw the whole thing backwards and just lay there and laugh, flip it over and he'd be like his little laugh.

2:23 Yea, his laugh was amazing. It brought me joy just to hear it. He was so happy. He was happy. A little baby, well big baby, yeah, he was big. It was big. It was ten pounds, like huge for me. I remember right before he got pregnant, and I told you, mom, I'm gonna have a brother. Yeah, and he didn't believe me. I thought it was going to be a girl and I was a boy. Sure, you're right. I love that little kid. Yeah, he was really lovable. I just remember I wanted him so bad. I wonder a brother so bad, like I was so desperate. Yeah. He would dance to the music when hit the stereo with his sound and the walker and he would be moving, remember that.

3:27 Oh good. At McDonald's. I wouldn't ask him what he wanted. He would scream even though he couldn't talk. He was screaming at me because I didn't get his order. He was hilarious. And do you remember how old he was when you and dad split up? He was probably six months maybe I think about six months. Yeah, And we've moved from Texas clomb to a girl so we could be a family because things weren't working out for us in Texas. Yeah. So I just remember. I don't know if this is like a real memory or not, but I remember before even before Jacob, And this isn't really Probably the episode could be slamming my dad, but I remember how difficult it was for you because it would just be you and me a lot. Yeah, it was hard because he was never around.

4:33 Really. He would go with his friends before we woke up and come back after we were asleep, so we really wouldn't see him or anything. He really didn't like think, you know, I have a family, I need a feed. He just thought about himself basically. Well, I remember there were times where you were worried about eating me and taking care of me. Yeah, it was hard. There was a little lady that lived in the apartment. Really, I don't know if you remember, but we would take a walk every day and we would pray, you know, forgot to help us, to feat us, and we would take a walk around apartment complex.

5:19 By the time there was a food on the doorstep. Every time. She would plus us a little bless her you use her to plus us. Yeah, we got everything. Everything you wanted was in the bag, all the way down to the beef room. Everything we needed was in that bag. And God to put her there. She was our angel. She really helped a lot. I don't know if she heard her prayer or I don't know, she just came out of nowhere. I don't know. It was that one lady to put food on our door almost every day. It's really I mean, I can't imagine how difficult it was for you as a mom and just knowing that your husband was out doing whatever. You know, it didn't matter. The only thing don't mattered is that you had food and you were okay, and we had a place to go. Nothing mattered. I think the only reason I bring this up is because I I feel like it's important to set the picture of what was going on in our family. You know, when we left I left, my dad essentially would abandon us for days and days at a time and then call and be like bragging about eating

6:51 lobster and steak and stuff. Do you remember that. Yeah, he was ridiculous. He just wasn't growing and it wouldn't think about anybody like is it I guess he's naive, selfish. Yeah, that's how they raised him. Like I don't know what happened, but I remember when I was like maybe three or four. I don't even know why I remember this, and if I if I'm like making this up, tell me. But I remember one time you were like washing the dishes and you were just crying, and I remember I went up to you and I said, Mom, when I'm growing up. I'm going to be better than my dad. I'm going to take care of my family. Yeah, you do. You're smart beyond your years.

7:36 You got the whole picture. You're not just part of it. You're more grown than we were think in your mind and in your thoughts, and you had it all together. Well. I think I've always had a sense for what's just and what's not. And I knew that wasn't right. I knew that wasn't fair and it wasn't okay. Yeah, so you know, I understand. I guess it's what I'm saying. Why why you decided to take us home? Why you decided it was better? And I think it was the right choice. It was hard because if I had to work and take care of everybody, I might as well come home and do it here, at least where I had family and people, you know, people that care instead of nobody. Yeah, except people, you know. Yeah, and that one lady that I don't even know what God was. So Jacob's like six months we come back over here, and you'd already started seeing.

8:41 We were just talking. He like, he weaseled his way into my life, basically because it was a con he tell me lies about what they were notes. But he would tell me, you know, stuff to make me question your dad, you know, like he's calling so and so behind your back and this and that, And I look at the phone bill and sure enough, you know what's on there. But I didn't know he was using it to try to get me away from him, like conniving kind of way. You know, he just like was ploying and plotting and thinking how he could get us to break up. Yeah, and he went pretty much did it because he left his wife and I left your dad and then, you know, I don't know how it happened, but he weaseled his way into my life. I started talking to him, and I didn't even know what happened. I never really liked him, but he was just there. He like manipulated his way in. It sounds like he knew what to say and how to say it. And I think it's important to know that he was my dad's best friend. Yeah, that's the whole thing is. You know, he was using You're dad to try to hurt me, and he was your dad's best friend. So if I wanted to get back at him, and the best way I could think of his you know his best friend that would hurt him the best. Instead of hurting him, I put myself on

10:15 you in a predicament that and Jacob we can't couldn't escape. Yeah, but you can't take responsibility for the actions of a psychopath. It's not your fault. I blame myself for many years, but I've come to realize that it's not my fault. You have no control over his behavior. He and I remember when I first met him. I think like we went to his place to watch movies one night, and he was like so charming and so fun. Like I remember, I was like, Oh, I like this guy. He's actually interested and he's talking to me and he you know, so, I like anybody would have fallen for that. Anybody would have seen that as a good thing and not saw through that because he was really good at hiding who he really was. Yeah it was I don't know how many years he's done it, but he was a pro at making himself look good and making people feel comfortable around him, and I think we had to learn some of those skills later as well. It's true, so you're you're dating him, Okay, he's in my life, he's in your life. No matter what happened. I don't know. He weaseled his way into my life.

11:35 Yeah, even though I didn't like him and he called me and too, you know, I don't know. I guess I kind of liked him and kind of believed him after a while. Yeah, because he was a good call artist and he lied to me. He told me everything I wanted to hear. I guess I feel like everything moved pretty quickly before I knew it. We were living with him. Yeah, he was like, I don't know how to even when he was like some animal waiting to pounce. Basically, I see what you mean. It's like he was waiting. He saw an opportunity in the trouble that you were having with my dad and took advantage of it. Basically. Yeah, that's the whole stories. He took advantage of me, and I thought, you know, he really cared when you were your most vulnerable too. Yeah, and he didn't care. He never cared. But that doesn't matter for my listeners. Want them to know that we're not going to use his name. The person who's responsible for so much trauma in my family's life. We just don't feel like, first of all, it's not a closed case. It's still open even though it's cold, and I don't want to jeopardize any of that. But also he's really not worth any mentioned or yeah, acknowledgement of who he is. As far as I'm concerned, He's just a piece of shit, child killer. Yeah,

13:09 so I think again, if you need to take a break, we're going into some heavy stuff here. In a second, I could do it. So shortly after things started happening to Jacob. It was like stuff, weird stuff would happen, like there was some flower seed shells in his bed, in his crib. You know, he was getting hurt all of a sudden for unexplainable reasons. And basically what he told me was lies. He would tell me that my son, you kicked Jacob in the bed when he was walking by, that he happened to see it in this that, but that wasn't true. He was actually, I believe he was hitting him every time he got a chance, every time we turned our back. He was hurting my child, your brother. I remember being blamed. I remember being very confused, and you know, I think you know me better than most people, and I, especially at that age, really wanted to make everybody around me happy, and so I think I said what people wanted me to say or what was being said to agree with him, because I didn't want to cause problems. But he made you say that because he said for you not

14:41 to lie and stuff like that. So I think he coursed you to say stuff that wasn't really happening to Cory his own book. Yeah, and at this point for me, I wasn't There was no abuse towards me yet from him like that. He was still writing it. Yeah, he was still relatively like nice to me and would hang out and nothing. I don't remember him hitting me or any of that at this time. If he wouldn't touch you, because he knew he would tell me. I was about five, Yeah, I think you're almost six. It is kindergarten time. I remember.

15:24 I remember that because I remember I love my kindergarten teacher. She was so cool. And then I had to go to California and get a new teacher. M yeah, it's not. I felt that I needed to remove you because even if something would happen, I don't want you to be blamed, and I knew that he would use you and blame you no matter what regardless, and you told him that it was because he wanted to keep Jacob safe from me, just so that because that's what he wanted to hear exactly. So you called my dad. Yeah, I called you and I said, you know this and this is happening, and I don't know what's going on, but I want Eric Ray moved from this situation because I just I couldn't understand what was happening. And I knew you weren't doing anything to your brother because you loved him. He loved that little boy. And I kept hearing, you know, he dropped him, He picked him up out the career and he dropped him. I walked by, he kicked him. You know, everything was like Eric did this, Eric did that, and Eric's so jealous and you know it wasn't true. And so I had to make sure that no matter what happened, you were protected a teacher. No, you know, he needed to get away from that situation. And that's all I knew at that time. Yeah, but you also had some suspicions.

16:52 I think I did, and my mom and dad did. They told me, you know, he has a bump on his head one day and I rushed him to the er. They had to drain his head. The doctor never told me, you know, somebody's beating him. Nothing. They just took care of him and send them home and didn't really explain nothing to me. And I was lost and confused and I didn't know what to do or who returned to Well, it was like nineteen eighty five or born in eighty six July, So I don't know what the reporting laws were like back then.

17:34 For was it nothing like it is now because they didn't have the forensics or whatever, or if even if they did, they laughed at you. You know, they wouldn't help you. They just make a joke out of it. Yeah. Do you want to talk about the time that grandma tried to put him on her shoulders? Do you remember that? Yeah? She kind of she just like didn't put her him on the shoulder. She just lifted him like a bover, like like you do babies, put him pick him up. He didn't want no part of that at all. He was terrified that, you know. And I went and I when I got home, I asked him, why is Jacob so scared? Are you playing rough with him? Or what's going on? And he's like, you know, like, what do you mean. I don't know what you're talking about.

18:30 And so I put him up a little bit and he started screaming and holding out to me and just like freaking out. And I said, this is what I mean. You know, no baby should act like that. Why is he doing that? And he's just like, oh, he always does that whenever I do play with him like that. And he got him and you know, he take him away from me and tried to do that and Jacob was just screaming. He wouldn't stop. Had to just take him away from him. I told him, don't you ever ever play with my son rough like that. If I ever catch you, always swear to God all hurt you. And you know, he said, oh I won't and I won't and I don't know. Everything came out of this and out a lie. So I think that's important for people to understand and like, why we're so adamant that this is the person that did this, right, um, aside from the fact that he tried to blame a six year old boy for all of this stuff. Um, Jacob, like you talked about it a little bit before, but Jacob was not a fraidy cat. He was not a scared kid. He was crazy. He was he liked it. He enjoyed like crazy stuff. Yeah, being thrown around and stuff like that.

19:40 Before the city it came into the picture. Like I even talked about how you used to pick up the whole swing with him. You said, he pulled the silverware drawer open and all this. I remember all the knives, noise, not seeing scared him. So for him to act that way was out of the ordinary for him because he wasn't he had no fear exactly. So should bring red flags to anybody that if their kid acts like scared of anything like that, they're holding out to you so tight. Pay attention to that. That's a sign, a real big sign. You know. I was twenty six and stupid, I'll admit it. But pay attention to how they're reacting and you know what they react to, because that'll tell you a lot. Yeah, he um, So, I remember. I don't remember a lot from that time. I remember being in California, I remember going to school there. I remember my guy and I were like staying in a like almost like a garage of someone's house in bunk beds. I don't even know. I think you're with Nikki and somebody and Nina who would take you to school. She was in a wheelchair. Yeah, I used to sit in the front of her a wheelchair and she would so I knew you were okay. So I was ok he would you be in there for a little bit, But I wasn't going to leave you there forever. I just wanted to see what would happen, and you know, get you out of that blaming game that he was playing, because I didn't believe none of that.

21:15 Well, the weird stuff didn't stop. Yeah, weird stuff got worse, you know, Jacob and I would try to put him down. He would just hold on to me so tight. He didn't want to let go. And you know that's something that people need to hear. If you take your trial somewhere and they don't let go, there's a reason, you know, that's the first sign. Yeah, I didn't get it. I thought he just he didn't want to let me go, because I'm all, that wasn't it. He was terrified, he was scared, he was holding on he wouldn't want to let me go, and I didn't understand why at all.

21:57 It was just a nightmare, you know. Yeah, And I didn't know what was happening. I had a job a supermart and you were gone and everything. You know, he had an operation on his head before you left, and I wanted to make sure you weren't blamed, but it would happened. And so I, who was at work, and my mom called me about an hour before I was going to get out, and she said, I want to go to church. What do I do with the baby? Where do I take him? And I didn't know what to do. There's no cell phones, there's no whatever. All my family worked, and I said, I guess take him too my boyfriend he was then he was my boyfriend, take him to him. I said, it's only an hour before I get out. What could happen in an hour? My exact words.

22:56 I have ever regret those words. And during the hour I felt so uneasy. I never told us to anybody, and I was begging, begging my manager, please please let me go home. It's not busy, you don't need me here. He just laughed at me and say, no, go do this, go do that. And so I just made myself pray and say you have to stay. And I just made myself work and I got a little bit busy, so it's checking out the customer. I heard the ambulance as by at that moment. He ran into the store. He said, Jacobs the ambulance. I don't know what happened. I said, what do you mean, Jacobs in the ambulance, and he just he said, we gotta go, we gotta go, and I just ran out the store.

23:53 I left the customer there. I don't know what happened. I just left and I got to the er and my mom and dad. I don't even know how they got there or what happened. And Jacob wasn't in the room, and I walked in and I touched my baby. It's just and he took a deep breath. Why can't you Mama was Mama was there with him, and they defly him to Albuquerque. They took him to Presbyterian, and the injuries were so bad that left them to you. And I'm trauma sinner. So it became very difficult for my mom to continue discussing Jacob's murder.

24:47 She really had a challenging time just getting through it emotionally, and I don't blame her for that. It's one of the most traumatic things that ever happened to her. I promised my mom that I would jump in here and share with you the rest of the story. So Jacob was airlifted to the University of New Mexico Hospital and he was rushed into emergency surgery. He didn't make it. He died shortly after they took him in for surgery, and he succumbed to his injuries. I'm going to do another episode after this that's going to go through a lot of the legal documents that were created during the investigation of what happened to my brother. It's enough for me to say that it was very clear that Jacob died as a result of a blow to his head, and the medical examiner said that it was probably an open hand about the size of a man's hand. He also said that these injuries that he experienced, the symptoms that he experienced he was hit in the head, likely would have started half an hour after it happened, shortly after my grandmother dropped off my brother to my stepdad. My stepdad hit him in the head, and within thirty minutes he was starting to vomit and convulse and went into a

26:21 coma. The reason I say this is because it was literally within minutes of being dropped off that he shows up at my mom's work and my mom hears the ambulance going by. So from my perspective as a six year old, I was asleep in my bed in California. My dad woke me up to tell me that there had been a terrible accident and that my brother was being rushed to the hospital. I didn't really understand what happened, but my dad told me that I needed to get my stuff together so that we could go back to New Mexico. I believe it was that same morning we jumped on a flight and went back to Albuquerque. I remember that there was a state police officer along with my mom and my grandmother waiting for us at the airport.

27:08 As soon as we got there, my mom told me what had happened. Jacob passed away overnight. My sweet little brother was gone, and I'll never forget that day. I'll never forget that feeling. So what happened next was a little bit challenging for me to understand because I was so young, But my mom ended up staying with her boyfriend at the time and things just got worse from there. So we'll go back to the conversation I had with my mom to talk about this, so you can hear exactly what happened after Jacob died. We'll be right back after a brief commercial break. AD free episodes are available at patreon dot com slash Tapes from the dark Side. I'm just you know, I can't even imagine what kind of monster it takes to to hurt somebody. Can't even hurt anybody. And not only that, like, and maybe we're biased, but he was, like he was so sweet and so like funny and happy and cute, like he was such a good kid. It was even though he was a little bit crazy. There's no reason to beat him to death just because he's a baby. Yeah, there's no excuse for that. That's just like an animal. What kind of animal

28:40 would hurt child like that? I don't understand still to this day, I don't. I don't think I ever will understand. I don't think. I don't think we ever will, because I don't think that we have the capability to be that evil inside of us, you know, like I think you were understand that. I know, I don't. I wanted to hurt him as bad as he hurt me and I couldn't. Yeah, because I'm not that person. I'll never get it. How can you hurt somebody that can't even fight back, can't even say helped me? Just doesn't make sense that you have so much hatred in your heart that he would just dispose of a baby like trash, freaking sad. I almost feel like like everything he said about me and what he thought like, I feel like all of that was basically him, Like he was jealous of Jacob. He That's exactly right.

29:44 Everything he said he was doing, he would blame me for going out on him. He was chasing after thirteen year old kids, stalking kids that I knew. You know, everything that he accused me of, He was doing everything he accused you he was doing. He was doing it all. He just thought he would never get caught. I thought he was so slick, so sly. He thought he was smart. Yeah, everybody, he's still above the law and never gonna get caught. Well, and he had all those connections, yea, friends with the working for the county, access to all the files. They don't know how they disappeared. I'm not really comfortable asking you these questions because I know, um, whatever you want to know him. I'm willing to answer it. I know. I just don't want you to feel like I. I don't blame you for anything that you did.

30:41 I don't know and I don't feel bad. Just whatever you want to know, just ask me, because I'm not gonna take it like like you think I am. I just have to get the story out, you know, And so you have to know. That's why I'm willing to talk to you. So um you know it's you told me this already. I just need you to say it for this purpose. But like, why did you stay with him after that? The only thing that I cared about is finding out what happened to my son. I didn't care about anything else. I just wanted to know the truth. I wanted to know what happened to Jacob, and I stayed with him because, like I said, I wanted to hurt him like the way he hurt me, and my mind wasn't right and I wasn't thinking right. And if I would ever known he was like that, I would have never ever ever been around him that I didn't know.

31:41 He hit it so good. He told me everything I wanted to hear. He was so charming, and such a colun artist that I really thought he loved me. He didn't love me. He just wanted to use me. And you know, keep that over my head for three years. Um he abused me. He put a knife to my throat and he said the only way I was going to get away from him would be in a body bag. When you have a dagger to your throat, you know, they say how are you leaving after they beat you and put a dagger to your throat and say that to you, And of course you're gonna say no. You know how you're gonna leave when they're trying to stab you in the throat and kill you right there. It's scary. Well I remember, and maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like after Jacob died there was a good two or three years where it was relatively calm. He was just like he hit out.

32:45 He wouldn't even come around me. For a week. After Jacob died, I had to go look for him to see, you know, what's going on. I didn't know what was going on or what happened, or all I kept saying is it was an it was an accident, and meet me at the graveyard so I could talk to you, Why am I going to meet him at the graveyard when he put my son in the graveyard? Yeah, you know, I'm thinking he's going to kill me over there. Well I read that in the investigative report, and I thought that was really weird that he I mean even for him, not just once, but over and over and over anyone. I mean to go meet him at the graveyard to talk to him at the graveyard. That's so creepy, like that is shick. Yeah, who murders somebody and then tries to take the mother of the child you murdered to the grave of the kid. That don't make sense at all. That's just like what. I can't even understand that. Like I'm not a psychologist or anything, but I just I always try to figure you know, I always try to think about that, like what what what logic is it? I can't there's no logic. And then yeah, I think I wanted to kill me. I still think he wants to kill me.

34:01 But I'm going to speak my truth no matter what. For Jacob. He did have a voice and he deserves one. And I couldn't for the longest time even talk about it. When did he start hitting you? After Jacob died, everything changed after I don't know what. He told me that he had to get married to me because he filed some kind of papers and he was going to go to prison, a big old story. I don't know what it was, but he called me into marrying him. I married him with the JP. After all of it was over, I wouldn't ask the judge for an a moment, and I was granted one because it was so violent that nobody deserves that is what the judge said. So it's erased.

34:52 Every those years after the fact, that wasn't That was three years. It was from eighty seven until nineteen ninety. And every time he kept telling me, I'm gonna tell you what happened. When I tell you what really happened, and he never did. And when I finally got the autopsy twenty forty pages, I don't even know how long it is because I can't get through it, and it's all outlined right there what happened to him. I don't know how much of this, you know. After Jacob died, things started changing, you know. I mean, he was obviously he was hitting you, and I remember I think we were still on the other side of the freeway. We were still kind of in that same neighborhood where we lived and Jacob died because I think it was we were living in a single wide at that time before we got the double wide, right, And I remember one day we were going to go somewhere as a family with it was like you, me, his kids, him and and you guys were fighting the night before when you were all like black and blue. Yeah, the bruises on your arms, your eye was black. I remember we were all lined up almost like like we're in the military, all for us. And he was walking back and forth and he said, if somebody asks what happened to

36:22 your mom, what are you going to say? Over and over and over again until I said this answer that he wanted, and until it was perfect, and until he believed me. And I almost felt like he was kind of like brainwashing us. And also he would like get in my face and be like, if you fucked this up, I'm going to kill your mom, like real quiet, so that even his kids couldn't hear it. But he was like right in front of my face. There's a lot of things that happened that I never told you, because he always threatened to kill us, and I believed him. I believe that brother's in the grave. I knew he was definitely capable of it. Like there were times when when it was just him and I know his kids were with their mom and you were at work or something. This was like in the double wide on Main Street.

37:43 I wouldn't be allowed to leave my room all day, Like I couldn't even go to the bathroom. And I remember I had all this stuff in my room. And at first I thought I was like, oh, I'm a lucky kid. I have a TV ab and Nintendo. I have a refrigerator. I have all this stuff in my room that most kids don't have. But I think that was his way of imprisoning me. And so I would have to knock on my door and I'd have to ask for permission to the restroom, and if he felt like I didn't really need to go, then I didn't get to go. I didn't know that it gets worse.

38:30 I'm sorry, it's a lot worse. And I didn't tell you, not because I didn't trust you, but because I could want you to fucking die. You know, um, one time he locked me in my closet and you put the dining chair against the door, so I couldn't get out of it because he was mad about something. I don't remember what it was. But I couldn't even be in my room. I had to be in the closet. I just I never told you. I feel bad about that. But I also didn't want us to get killed either. He was always trying to save our lives, at least that's what I felt like. And I remember always feeling like like we were walking on eggshells. I mean, do you remember when he would get mad if I gave him what he thought was a dirty look. Yeah, I would clean the bedroom, his cycle, anything, any little wrong movement, say something wrong, you'd do something wrong.

39:27 Everybody help breaks loose. We I mean we didn't. I don't feel like we really did anything wrong ever, you know what I mean, Like, I don't feel like we did not seem to deserve that. Yeah, he's the one with the problem. I mean, there are times where he'd be like, stopped looking at me like that, and then I would just look down. And so I spent a lot of the time just looking at the floor because I was afraid that if I even just looked at him, that he was gonna start beating the shit out of you, and then I would get locked in my room and you know what I mean, like it was going to be the same shit. It wasn't even about you, it was just anything I did. It wasn't it was if he felt guilty, he would come home and beat on me because of what he was doing.

40:10 Wasn't even like nothing to do with us. I think the point though, is that like we never knew what was going to send him over the edge. Yeah, it literally could be anything or nothing. Sometimes you feel it's hard to react to a psychopath. It's hard to be prepared because you never know, right. I mean, it explains a lot of why we're both the way that we are. In a lot of ways. You know, we're very we can both be very reactive and very emotional about things, and it makes sense that we would have those reactions because we couldn't even look at him. Yeah, I can't even move without where you're going? What're you doing? Or like even just like the way I ate, didn't they sing?

41:01 And I think that really caused me to have a lot of hatred for myself because I felt like I was bad and damaged and wrong and I started like I started to believe that you do it. I put it into you so much that you actually believe it. Every time something would happen, he would always say, if anybody finds out about this, I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna kill your mom. And I slept with I had a can of aquainette and a lighter and a steak knife under my pillow and a bat under my bed. That's scary, but I knew I needed to do something to protect myself. And I don't know if you remember this one time.

41:55 It was like the middle of the afternoon and he had locked me and his kids in our room and he was beating the shot out of you for a long time, and then you stopped screaming. Yeah, I remember, and I broke out of my room through the window. I busted the screaming window out, and I started throwing rocks at your room window. He was saving my life. She was choking me with the wire hanger because I kept telling him I was gonna leave, and I was gonna leave. I choked me to I almost used out, and when you jumped out the window, go to mouth with me. And that's only thing. Let's save my life.

42:49 I remember he chased me out of the house and I ran across the street to the neighbors because I was friends with that little boy. And I was like banging on their door. I'm like, let me, and he's gonna kill me. I mean, he's gonna kill me. They pulled me inside. They already knew what was happening. I think they had two ice creams loud as like good. Nobody would ever help. I mean there was a state cop. Yeah, maybe three houses away. It wasn't far enough not to hear um. But she pulled me in the house and she loved me. That the parents, they we all got along. She used to go read to their little boy, you're a good kid. And I remember I said, call the cops. He's gonna kill us. It was like nineteen ninety. Probably moved into that other trailer when I left him. I feel like he wasn't being as violent as like. I feel like the double wife was the worst. Yeah. I don't know why, but I went cycle in there all the time like a jackal, and I one day's happy and smiling, in the next day kill you. Literally, I wonder what the hell is going on? Because then I feel like after we moved to that single way, it calmed down a lot because he was busy stalking somebody else instead of us, my cousin trying to he had to bust up and do all kinds of stupid stuff. So she was fourteen, and he was making

44:24 like lude calls. He was calling her and telling her to come over when all at work, and he thinks she spoke pretty. And I get mad at him because he's always staring at her and all this garbage. But she's she's my little savior because she told me, and she told him in his face. She was very outspoken, happy for my family. Yeah, she didn't care. She told me right there from the gout and everybody, and that's what you needed. Somebody to help you get out before they kill you. Yeah, it's somebody that's going to stand up and tell you the truth in front of their face. And then I just don't care how the high water is coming out. I think she saved both of us. She did.

45:10 I don't even know she knows she does, because she went with me when I left him, because I took the cup and I took her and I took my sister. And that's all I needed as her and her being mop didn't. I got away. Wow, I'm really great we got away. I'm grateful for her because I I think if we would have stayed there, I would have never told you anything. I don't think he would have allowed it. But she really didn't have any reason to be afraid because she wasn't in it. She didn't know what was happening. And yeah, and I think even if I think, even like if she was there, she would have she still would have told. She would have been mouthing off to him the whole time. Yeah, I'm not gonna say that to them.

45:58 I'm not gonna lie for you. I'm gonna O. Then do you hit her? Like? That's exactly who she would be exactly. She don't care. Oh, it's too scary what you had a reason. We're both too scared, and we both had a reason. You don't take I'm gonna kill you lightly. I'm gonna kill your mom lately, especially when they already killed your brother. Yeah. So I get asked this question all the time, and honestly, I don't know how to answer it. But I think it's a question we both probably ask ourselves all the time, which is how is he still free? Who knows? That's just like, why did they never press charges or do anything question somebody and just let them go after they admit what they did. That's ridiculous. I don't understand it. Still. I was shocked when I was reading the investigation report and at the end where it says a certain officer told the investigator that allowed detective test would not be necessary inasmuch as they obtained a confession. But why they still do it? They still did allow detective test that he felt it mentions the confession twice, so welcome. They didn't do nothing to him? Why they cover it up?

47:19 Yeah? When it's right there in black and white, Like I don't understand hematoma and subdural hematoma, but I know that's not something good. All those injuries he sustained. Yeah, you know, I don't understand doctors terms. But it's blood. He basically was bleeding inside of his He was killed. He hit him, He hit him well. And there points in there where the medical investigator or the investigating officer, um, there's a couple of other people certificate very clear, yes it's homicide. By it's right there. Why didn't they do something? Yeah, what else do you need. I don't understand how he never like he never even had a grand jury trial, let alone a prosecution trial. Like he had nothing. He never had to answer.

48:20 He said he did one night in jail one night, and then he was gone the next day as Daddy took him out. What's up? And then you go hide. That's not a guilt, that's so. I know you were like pressuring the DA after you left him to do something at least pressuring everybody was raising hell. I remember, I just didn't understand why I didn't do nothing. I'm still and I wrote letters and I never got responses, and I just didn't know what to do. Once I could talk about it, and I didn't know he was a liar, and everything you said was it Once I got to one thing that um amaze me about you, amazes me still about you, is that you're probably the best person I've ever seen at documenting things Like I don't know anybody that's as good as you at that just does a reason. Well, I know it's you're smart about it.

49:24 When you go to trup to court and you're trying to get a restraining order on somebody and you say, well, did he hit me? What day did he hit you? What time did he hit you? What kind of stupid question is how like he's beating on me and you want me to check the time and check the day, like seriously. So once they did that to me, forget it all. Write down. So I read through a lot of your notes, and a lot of it took me, took me back there, like I remember those days. I remember him like being right by my window saying shit to me through the window, like I'm gonna kill you, and all this ship when I was like eleven or twelve, still trying to stalk us, and I used to be so afraid, like I would sleep under my bed and remember the orange bunk bed I had, like the Ninja Turtles blanket. I remember I had like Nina Turtles blanket, pillowcase and the trash can, yeah, and the curtains. But he would be like on the fucking killing So I sleep under the bottom bunk or in haroom or in your room. And you're like, I don't know if you remember, but my personality, like who I am now, I was not like that. When you him, you're really scared and look scared to talk and a lot. You've changed a lot. It became Eric instead of who somebody's trying to make you be or make you confess to, or whatever he's

50:55 trying to do. I don't understand that either, because I remember, Um, you know, I remember Anti used to get mad at me because I would apologize like all the time for nothing. I was just like I literally would just walk around saying I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I made you feel like everything you did is wrong, was wrong, like everything, even breathing, I guess, breathing, eating, having my eyes open, it's just existing. So yeah, so I remember I used to get in trouble because people would yell at me for saying sorry, and then I would say sorry. So I was saying sorry too much, and like I just I was a scared little boy, you know. I was. Yeah, there's no other way to say it. I never made eye contact with anybody, like I remember when you started dating Dad and he used to yell at me because I wouldn't make eye contact. I wouldn't want to shake anybody's hand. And like before all that, I was a happy, hyper regular little boy, little kid. You don't have to watch everything you did.

52:05 I used to say, choir and plays and all kinds of stuff. Sucker. Yeah, it took me. I think it took me a good year or two before I finally started to come out of that. We had to realize that I wasn't going to go back to him, ever. I think I was scared of that for sure. There's no way I would go back to something like that. And at around that time too that I told you the other stuff you did to me, I want to talk about that on here. Yeah, that's why, because you opened up to men you never had before. Mental lot to me. I mean it's enough to say that he's a physical, mental, and sexual abuser. Yeah that's too good at words, But yeah, sadly and a psychopath and a murderer and a murderer and a child sure number one hurt. Somebody that can't even defend ourselves, that's a sad person. So I know that for you and me, we've been sitting on this for thirty years. We both have really I think had our time. Our whole family. Really, our whole family changed after Jacob died, like even everybody, even the way they interacted with us as our

53:42 family changed, the relationships that we had with them changed like he literally perverted every aspect of our lives, just try to literally destroy us, even with our own family. And so you know, of course we love our family still and we're not We don't blame them for anything. It's hard to I don't know how I would react in a situation like that either. I mean, it was shocking. It was so shocking for everybody because everybody loved Jacob and he was healthy and there's no reason for that to happen. And I don't think our family had experienced anything like that at that level ever Before that, people got sick and eyed, but we've never experienced like murder. You know, when you're growing up with somebody and you go to church with them, and you go to school with them, and you think they're normal, and they act normal and prisons themselves to the world as normal, but inside they're really Jacol and I'd monster killer, you know, soon sounds like a movie, but it's for real, and they can just go on every day and it's not even linked twice about it. I don't get it. You know, people that I know that I'm close to when I said I was

55:14 going to do this episode, when I did the podcast first of all, and I talked about Jacob a little bit. A lot of people were like, you didn't tell me that your brother was murdered. Yeah, I didn't. I don't. I don't walk around talking about this all the time, you know, not a topic of conversation. It's not something that I enjoy talking about. It's not something that I am comfortable talking about, honestly, because it hurts so much. And even in like the safety of my mom's house, it's still hard. It still hurts, it's still fresh. Yeah.

55:57 So you know, I just I get so mad when I get accused of using Jacob's death to make money or to get famous or whatever. Like I don't want any of that. I don't even care about that. Like I'm losing money on this podcast, and it's not about that at all. In fact, the only reason I'm doing this, the only reason I'm telling this story, is because I think it's important for people to understand that New Mexico has always always failed at taking care of children. Yeah, and that all of this stuff that's happening and that has been happening. The only reason we're more aware of it now is because we have the Internet and because we have news instantly at our fingertips. This stuff has been happening forever. New Mexico has failed its kids forever in a lot of ways. We're lasting education, we're first in child abuse. You know, we have so many horrible statistics, and you know, the fact that people are getting away with it is not surprising to me. She's not getting fit, It's not And so the only reason I'm doing this, well, maybe there's two. The first reason is I want people to pay attention. I want people to be fucking

57:28 outraged that this is continuing to happen. I want people to stop not caring about what's going on around them because they don't like politics or whatever, because it's like, if we continue to just ignore this shit, it's going to just keep getting worse. So that's the first part. The second part is I fucking want justice. Yep, I want justice for Jacob. I agree. I want him to pay for what he did to my brother here an hour after two. Yeah, I want him to pay for what he did to you and to me and to our cousin. My cousin yea. He should not be allowed to live a happy life free of any worries at all, there's no reason for it. There's no excuse. He should rot in a fucking prison. We have to go to towne and wonder if we're going to see him or not. Like that's just disgusting. So he's free and happy, go lucky. You know, he got away with it ridiculous and his family. I rather something that he documented where somebody I won't say their name, but they approached you and came to my house. That was when we lived over there on slops like the things that that person said. She

59:04 knows, she knows exactly what happened, and she didn't even see my paperwork. She I mean, she's she said a couple of times we tried to warn you not to be with him. We tried to tell you when you didn't listen to us exactly, and they never did. What the fuck does that mean? She knows he's a psycho. I don't know. That's I've been scratching my head ever since that day. So this is when you were like gung ho, trying to get somebody to listen to you, going to the DIA, going to the police, Yeah, trying to get it going and get something. Why aren't you guys doing anything. Why did you not do anything? Ever? Like I have this hot top three report, what's going on? Like? Who come this take off and waiting for us at the hospital? Why didn't they take him? You know he was there, he was there. Why didn't they take him? There's no reason not to, Like, I don't get it. Did they pay him off or what?

1:00:02 Well, the DA was well before that, So the DA I remember you. I actually read in here in your documentation, which I'm like super grateful that you did all of that because it really tells the whole story. But how he said that you changed your story and that's why he didn't prosecute. That's why he didn't press charges. And when I look back at what your story was, it wasn't a story. They asked you if you felt like he was capable of hurting Jacob, and you said, I don't think so exactly. So that's not your story. No, that's you answering a question, right right. I didn't think he was. For why I would I leave my kid with him? Nobody thought he was, and we thought he was this great person, like there's no way I would send my son to somebody that was like that. If I knew and I didn't change my story. Ever, I guess the problem for me, and I think that bothers me the most, is that just the blatant corruption and the blatant like lack of any kind of human understanding, empathy, willingness to just fucking listen, you know, Like we get maybe two feet forward, start talking to a cold case investigative with state police, and then it just falls off the face of the earth, nothing happened. Just who does good? It would merger. Basically, I made a free im moving information at request for everything related to this case from the state Police. Good, and I'm gonna do another one with the county and another one with the Sea because I feel like

1:01:35 there's probably a lot more to this than we even know. I wouldn't be surprised surprise they never did anything. I'm just done why still to this day, so I think we're at a good like stopping place almost, But I do want to just get your last thoughts about what do you want to happen. I just think if the story touches even one life, if it helps even one person not to have to go to what we did, it would be worth telling. I want Jacob to have justice. Because it's not right that he couldn't talk, and you know, I couldn't talk, and it took thirty three years for me to let the story out. And you know, I'm so proud of you, what you've done and what you're doing, and I believe in you, and thank you for giving Jacobo voice and all the other kids. It's too late for mine, but it's not too late for somebody else's. If you see the science, if your baby's scared, if they're holding on to you, they don't want to let go, something's wrong, pay attention to those science. Don't leave your babies with your boyfriends.

1:03:06 They might be good kin artists. And oh, I'll watch him, I'll watch him. Don't do it, gold, You're good. You know I felt it and I couldn't do nothing about it because I was stuck at work. But I knew something was wrong, and look what happened. And I didn't pay attention to the science because I didn't believe it. Because I've known him. I went to church with him, I went to school with him. I thought I knew this person, and I didn't at all. And I just want if it saves one child, if without school mother withouts one son and not to go through this. That's what I want. Thank you, Thank you. Not easy anything worthwhile? Is it? Thanks again for listening to True Consequences. Follow us on social media on Instagram and Facebook at True Consequences Pod and on Twitter at Truecon's Pod. True Consequences is hosted, written, and produced by me your host, Eric Carter ln Dean.

1:04:21 Thanks for listening and stay safety New Mexico. It's teasy again. What an intense conversation. Thank you again to Eric for letting me post this. And if you want to support Tapes from the dark Side, you can go to patreon dot com slash Tapes from the dark Side. Until next time, try to enjoy the daylight.