S7, BONUS: Eric's Mother

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The conversation I'm about to play for
you, I believe is one of the

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most unique pieces of audio that is
out there. It's a conversation between Eric

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Carter Lundeen and his mother, Brenda, And what makes this conversation so special

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is that it's actually the first time
that they've ever talked about the death of

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Jacob. Not only that, but
it's the first time they talked about anything

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involving who we've called John up until
this point and the abuse that he subjected

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them both to. This audio is
also available on Eric's podcast feed True Consequences,

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and he's given me permission to redistribute
it here on my feed to you

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all. So after you listen to
this episode, if he'll do me a

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favor and search for True Consequences and
subscribe to Eric's show, I would really

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appreciate that he has been so generous
to myself our show in being fully candid

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with everything involving his story and his
brother's story, And I just want to

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say I'm very grateful to Eric for
that. If you haven't yet listened to

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the Jacob Jeremiah Lundeen season, i'd
recommend listen to those four episodes before you

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listen to this. There's quite a
bit of this dialogue that I used in

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my telling of this story. But
there's also a lot of this conversation that

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you haven't heard before. So now, without talking about it anymore, let

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me play for you the conversation between
Eric Carter Lundean and his mother. Why

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don't we start with you telling me
about Jacob? What' you remember about him?

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I just remember he was funny,
and he liked to love, and

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he liked to put yours and make
all the silverware flayout. And he is

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just a silly boy who's really smart, like for being a bag. It

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was so smart. It was like
ridiculous how smart he was. I remember

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like he used to take the swing
and whenever between forward he would grab the

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front legs of the baby swing and
like throw the whole thing backwards and just

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lay there and laugh, flip it
over and he'd be like his little laugh.

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Yea, his laugh was amazing.
It brought me joy just to hear

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it. He was so happy.
He was happy. A little baby,

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well big baby, yeah, he
was big. It was big. It

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was ten pounds, like huge for
me. I remember right before he got

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pregnant, and I told you,
mom, I'm gonna have a brother.

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Yeah, and he didn't believe me. I thought it was going to be

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a girl and I was a boy. Sure, you're right. I love

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that little kid. Yeah, he
was really lovable. I just remember I

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wanted him so bad. I wonder
a brother so bad, like I was

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so desperate. Yeah. He would
dance to the music when hit the stereo

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with his sound and the walker and
he would be moving, remember that.

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Oh good. At McDonald's. I
wouldn't ask him what he wanted. He

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would scream even though he couldn't talk. He was screaming at me because I

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didn't get his order. He was
hilarious. And do you remember how old

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he was when you and dad split
up? He was probably six months maybe

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I think about six months. Yeah, And we've moved from Texas clomb to

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a girl so we could be a
family because things weren't working out for us

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in Texas. Yeah. So I
just remember. I don't know if this

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is like a real memory or not, but I remember before even before Jacob,

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And this isn't really Probably the episode
could be slamming my dad, but

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I remember how difficult it was for
you because it would just be you and

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me a lot. Yeah, it
was hard because he was never around.

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Really. He would go with his
friends before we woke up and come back

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after we were asleep, so we
really wouldn't see him or anything. He

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really didn't like think, you know, I have a family, I need

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a feed. He just thought about
himself basically. Well, I remember there

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were times where you were worried about
eating me and taking care of me.

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Yeah, it was hard. There
was a little lady that lived in the

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apartment. Really, I don't know
if you remember, but we would take

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a walk every day and we would
pray, you know, forgot to help

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us, to feat us, and
we would take a walk around apartment complex.

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By the time there was a food
on the doorstep. Every time.

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She would plus us a little bless
her you use her to plus us.

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Yeah, we got everything. Everything
you wanted was in the bag, all

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the way down to the beef room. Everything we needed was in that bag.

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And God to put her there.
She was our angel. She really

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helped a lot. I don't know
if she heard her prayer or I don't

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know, she just came out of
nowhere. I don't know. It was

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that one lady to put food on
our door almost every day. It's really

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I mean, I can't imagine how
difficult it was for you as a mom

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and just knowing that your husband was
out doing whatever. You know, it

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didn't matter. The only thing don't
mattered is that you had food and you

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were okay, and we had a
place to go. Nothing mattered. I

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think the only reason I bring this
up is because I I feel like it's

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important to set the picture of what
was going on in our family. You

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know, when we left I left, my dad essentially would abandon us for

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days and days at a time and
then call and be like bragging about eating

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lobster and steak and stuff. Do
you remember that. Yeah, he was

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ridiculous. He just wasn't growing and
it wouldn't think about anybody like is it

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I guess he's naive, selfish.
Yeah, that's how they raised him.

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Like I don't know what happened,
but I remember when I was like maybe

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three or four. I don't even
know why I remember this, and if

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I if I'm like making this up, tell me. But I remember one

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time you were like washing the dishes
and you were just crying, and I

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remember I went up to you and
I said, Mom, when I'm growing

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up. I'm going to be better
than my dad. I'm going to take

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care of my family. Yeah,
you do. You're smart beyond your years.

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You got the whole picture. You're
not just part of it. You're

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more grown than we were think in
your mind and in your thoughts, and

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you had it all together. Well. I think I've always had a sense

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for what's just and what's not.
And I knew that wasn't right. I

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knew that wasn't fair and it wasn't
okay. Yeah, so you know,

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I understand. I guess it's what
I'm saying. Why why you decided to

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take us home? Why you decided
it was better? And I think it

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was the right choice. It was
hard because if I had to work and

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take care of everybody, I might
as well come home and do it here,

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at least where I had family and
people, you know, people that

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care instead of nobody. Yeah,
except people, you know. Yeah,

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and that one lady that I don't
even know what God was. So Jacob's

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like six months we come back over
here, and you'd already started seeing.

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We were just talking. He like, he weaseled his way into my life,

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basically because it was a con he
tell me lies about what they were

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notes. But he would tell me, you know, stuff to make me

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question your dad, you know,
like he's calling so and so behind your

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back and this and that, And
I look at the phone bill and sure

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enough, you know what's on there. But I didn't know he was using

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it to try to get me away
from him, like conniving kind of way.

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You know, he just like was
ploying and plotting and thinking how he

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could get us to break up.
Yeah, and he went pretty much did

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it because he left his wife and
I left your dad and then, you

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know, I don't know how it
happened, but he weaseled his way into

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my life. I started talking to
him, and I didn't even know what

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happened. I never really liked him, but he was just there. He

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like manipulated his way in. It
sounds like he knew what to say and

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how to say it. And I
think it's important to know that he was

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my dad's best friend. Yeah,
that's the whole thing is. You know,

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he was using You're dad to try
to hurt me, and he was

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your dad's best friend. So if
I wanted to get back at him,

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and the best way I could think
of his you know his best friend that

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would hurt him the best. Instead
of hurting him, I put myself on

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you in a predicament that and Jacob
we can't couldn't escape. Yeah, but

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you can't take responsibility for the actions
of a psychopath. It's not your fault.

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I blame myself for many years,
but I've come to realize that it's

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not my fault. You have no
control over his behavior. He and I

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remember when I first met him.
I think like we went to his place

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to watch movies one night, and
he was like so charming and so fun.

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Like I remember, I was like, Oh, I like this guy.

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He's actually interested and he's talking to
me and he you know, so,

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I like anybody would have fallen for
that. Anybody would have seen that

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as a good thing and not saw
through that because he was really good at

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hiding who he really was. Yeah
it was I don't know how many years

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he's done it, but he was
a pro at making himself look good and

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making people feel comfortable around him,
and I think we had to learn some

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of those skills later as well.
It's true, so you're you're dating him,

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Okay, he's in my life,
he's in your life. No matter

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what happened. I don't know.
He weaseled his way into my life.

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Yeah, even though I didn't like
him and he called me and too,

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you know, I don't know.
I guess I kind of liked him and

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kind of believed him after a while. Yeah, because he was a good

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call artist and he lied to me. He told me everything I wanted to

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hear. I guess I feel like
everything moved pretty quickly before I knew it.

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We were living with him. Yeah, he was like, I don't

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know how to even when he was
like some animal waiting to pounce. Basically,

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I see what you mean. It's
like he was waiting. He saw

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an opportunity in the trouble that you
were having with my dad and took advantage

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of it. Basically. Yeah,
that's the whole stories. He took advantage

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of me, and I thought,
you know, he really cared when you

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were your most vulnerable too. Yeah, and he didn't care. He never

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cared. But that doesn't matter for
my listeners. Want them to know that

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we're not going to use his name. The person who's responsible for so much

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trauma in my family's life. We
just don't feel like, first of all,

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it's not a closed case. It's
still open even though it's cold,

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and I don't want to jeopardize any
of that. But also he's really not

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worth any mentioned or yeah, acknowledgement
of who he is. As far as

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I'm concerned, He's just a piece
of shit, child killer. Yeah,

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so I think again, if you
need to take a break, we're going

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into some heavy stuff here. In
a second, I could do it.

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So shortly after things started happening to
Jacob. It was like stuff, weird

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stuff would happen, like there was
some flower seed shells in his bed,

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in his crib. You know,
he was getting hurt all of a sudden

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for unexplainable reasons. And basically what
he told me was lies. He would

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tell me that my son, you
kicked Jacob in the bed when he was

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walking by, that he happened to
see it in this that, but that

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wasn't true. He was actually,
I believe he was hitting him every time

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he got a chance, every time
we turned our back. He was hurting

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my child, your brother. I
remember being blamed. I remember being very

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confused, and you know, I
think you know me better than most people,

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and I, especially at that age, really wanted to make everybody around

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me happy, and so I think
I said what people wanted me to say

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or what was being said to agree
with him, because I didn't want to

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cause problems. But he made you
say that because he said for you not

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to lie and stuff like that.
So I think he coursed you to say

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stuff that wasn't really happening to Cory
his own book. Yeah, and at

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this point for me, I wasn't
There was no abuse towards me yet from

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him like that. He was still
writing it. Yeah, he was still

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relatively like nice to me and would
hang out and nothing. I don't remember

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him hitting me or any of that
at this time. If he wouldn't touch

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you, because he knew he would
tell me. I was about five,

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Yeah, I think you're almost six. It is kindergarten time. I remember.

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I remember that because I remember I
love my kindergarten teacher. She was

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so cool. And then I had
to go to California and get a new

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teacher. M yeah, it's not. I felt that I needed to remove

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you because even if something would happen, I don't want you to be blamed,

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and I knew that he would use
you and blame you no matter what

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regardless, and you told him that
it was because he wanted to keep Jacob

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safe from me, just so that
because that's what he wanted to hear exactly.

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So you called my dad. Yeah, I called you and I said,

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you know this and this is happening, and I don't know what's going

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on, but I want Eric Ray
moved from this situation because I just I

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couldn't understand what was happening. And
I knew you weren't doing anything to your

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brother because you loved him. He
loved that little boy. And I kept

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hearing, you know, he dropped
him, He picked him up out the

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career and he dropped him. I
walked by, he kicked him. You

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know, everything was like Eric did
this, Eric did that, and Eric's

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so jealous and you know it wasn't
true. And so I had to make

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sure that no matter what happened,
you were protected a teacher. No,

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you know, he needed to get
away from that situation. And that's all

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I knew at that time. Yeah, but you also had some suspicions.

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I think I did, and my
mom and dad did. They told me,

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you know, he has a bump
on his head one day and I

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rushed him to the er. They
had to drain his head. The doctor

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never told me, you know,
somebody's beating him. Nothing. They just

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took care of him and send them
home and didn't really explain nothing to me.

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And I was lost and confused and
I didn't know what to do or

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who returned to Well, it was
like nineteen eighty five or born in eighty

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six July, So I don't know
what the reporting laws were like back then.

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For was it nothing like it is
now because they didn't have the forensics

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or whatever, or if even if
they did, they laughed at you.

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You know, they wouldn't help you. They just make a joke out of

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it. Yeah. Do you want
to talk about the time that grandma tried

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to put him on her shoulders?
Do you remember that? Yeah? She

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kind of she just like didn't put
her him on the shoulder. She just

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lifted him like a bover, like
like you do babies, put him pick

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him up. He didn't want no
part of that at all. He was

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terrified that, you know. And
I went and I when I got home,

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I asked him, why is Jacob
so scared? Are you playing rough

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with him? Or what's going on? And he's like, you know,

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like, what do you mean.
I don't know what you're talking about.

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And so I put him up a
little bit and he started screaming and holding

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out to me and just like freaking
out. And I said, this is

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what I mean. You know,
no baby should act like that. Why

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is he doing that? And he's
just like, oh, he always does

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that whenever I do play with him
like that. And he got him and

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you know, he take him away
from me and tried to do that and

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Jacob was just screaming. He wouldn't
stop. Had to just take him away

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from him. I told him,
don't you ever ever play with my son

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rough like that. If I ever
catch you, always swear to God all

224
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hurt you. And you know,
he said, oh I won't and I

225
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won't and I don't know. Everything
came out of this and out a lie.

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So I think that's important for people
to understand and like, why we're

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so adamant that this is the person
that did this, right, um,

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aside from the fact that he tried
to blame a six year old boy for

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all of this stuff. Um,
Jacob, like you talked about it a

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little bit before, but Jacob was
not a fraidy cat. He was not

231
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a scared kid. He was crazy. He was he liked it. He

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enjoyed like crazy stuff. Yeah,
being thrown around and stuff like that.

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Before the city it came into the
picture. Like I even talked about how

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you used to pick up the whole
swing with him. You said, he

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pulled the silverware drawer open and all
this. I remember all the knives,

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noise, not seeing scared him.
So for him to act that way was

237
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out of the ordinary for him because
he wasn't he had no fear exactly.

238
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So should bring red flags to anybody
that if their kid acts like scared of

239
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anything like that, they're holding out
to you so tight. Pay attention to

240
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:15.759
that. That's a sign, a
real big sign. You know. I

241
00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:19.720
was twenty six and stupid, I'll
admit it. But pay attention to how

242
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they're reacting and you know what they
react to, because that'll tell you a

243
00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:33.000
lot. Yeah, he um,
So, I remember. I don't remember

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a lot from that time. I
remember being in California, I remember going

245
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to school there. I remember my
guy and I were like staying in a

246
00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:48.799
like almost like a garage of someone's
house in bunk beds. I don't even

247
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.759
know. I think you're with Nikki
and somebody and Nina who would take you

248
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:55.319
to school. She was in a
wheelchair. Yeah, I used to sit

249
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in the front of her a wheelchair
and she would so I knew you were

250
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okay. So I was ok he
would you be in there for a little

251
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bit, But I wasn't going to
leave you there forever. I just wanted

252
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to see what would happen, and
you know, get you out of that

253
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:15.440
blaming game that he was playing,
because I didn't believe none of that.

254
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.240
Well, the weird stuff didn't stop. Yeah, weird stuff got worse,

255
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.359
you know, Jacob and I would
try to put him down. He would

256
00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.599
just hold on to me so tight. He didn't want to let go.

257
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And you know that's something that people
need to hear. If you take your

258
00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:37.960
trial somewhere and they don't let go, there's a reason, you know,

259
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.039
that's the first sign. Yeah,
I didn't get it. I thought he

260
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:45.559
just he didn't want to let me
go, because I'm all, that wasn't

261
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:49.640
it. He was terrified, he
was scared, he was holding on he

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00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:56.839
wouldn't want to let me go,
and I didn't understand why at all.

263
00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:02.839
It was just a nightmare, you
know. Yeah, And I didn't know

264
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:11.000
what was happening. I had a
job a supermart and you were gone and

265
00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.359
everything. You know, he had
an operation on his head before you left,

266
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and I wanted to make sure you
weren't blamed, but it would happened.

267
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And so I, who was at
work, and my mom called me

268
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about an hour before I was going
to get out, and she said,

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I want to go to church.
What do I do with the baby?

270
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Where do I take him? And
I didn't know what to do. There's

271
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no cell phones, there's no whatever. All my family worked, and I

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00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:47.160
said, I guess take him too
my boyfriend he was then he was my

273
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boyfriend, take him to him.
I said, it's only an hour before

274
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I get out. What could happen
in an hour? My exact words.

275
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I have ever regret those words.
And during the hour I felt so uneasy.

276
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I never told us to anybody,
and I was begging, begging my

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00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.880
manager, please please let me go
home. It's not busy, you don't

278
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:17.839
need me here. He just laughed
at me and say, no, go

279
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:22.519
do this, go do that.
And so I just made myself pray and

280
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say you have to stay. And
I just made myself work and I got

281
00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:33.559
a little bit busy, so it's
checking out the customer. I heard the

282
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ambulance as by at that moment.
He ran into the store. He said,

283
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:45.519
Jacobs the ambulance. I don't know
what happened. I said, what

284
00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:49.599
do you mean, Jacobs in the
ambulance, and he just he said,

285
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we gotta go, we gotta go, and I just ran out the store.

286
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.240
I left the customer there. I
don't know what happened. I just

287
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:04.279
left and I got to the er
and my mom and dad. I don't

288
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:11.079
even know how they got there or
what happened. And Jacob wasn't in the

289
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:17.039
room, and I walked in and
I touched my baby. It's just and

290
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:22.519
he took a deep breath. Why
can't you Mama was Mama was there with

291
00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:32.960
him, and they defly him to
Albuquerque. They took him to Presbyterian,

292
00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:37.480
and the injuries were so bad that
left them to you. And I'm trauma

293
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:45.720
sinner. So it became very difficult
for my mom to continue discussing Jacob's murder.

294
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.799
She really had a challenging time just
getting through it emotionally, and I

295
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:55.559
don't blame her for that. It's
one of the most traumatic things that ever

296
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.720
happened to her. I promised my
mom that I would jump in here and

297
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.720
share with you the rest of the
story. So Jacob was airlifted to the

298
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:11.839
University of New Mexico Hospital and he
was rushed into emergency surgery. He didn't

299
00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:17.039
make it. He died shortly after
they took him in for surgery, and

300
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:22.759
he succumbed to his injuries. I'm
going to do another episode after this that's

301
00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:29.039
going to go through a lot of
the legal documents that were created during the

302
00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:33.480
investigation of what happened to my brother. It's enough for me to say that

303
00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:38.039
it was very clear that Jacob died
as a result of a blow to his

304
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:45.559
head, and the medical examiner said
that it was probably an open hand about

305
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:51.400
the size of a man's hand.
He also said that these injuries that he

306
00:25:51.519 --> 00:26:00.119
experienced, the symptoms that he experienced
he was hit in the head, likely

307
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:06.759
would have started half an hour after
it happened, shortly after my grandmother dropped

308
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:11.720
off my brother to my stepdad.
My stepdad hit him in the head,

309
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:21.480
and within thirty minutes he was starting
to vomit and convulse and went into a

310
00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:30.119
coma. The reason I say this
is because it was literally within minutes of

311
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:36.119
being dropped off that he shows up
at my mom's work and my mom hears

312
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:40.000
the ambulance going by. So from
my perspective as a six year old,

313
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.759
I was asleep in my bed in
California. My dad woke me up to

314
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:48.200
tell me that there had been a
terrible accident and that my brother was being

315
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:52.640
rushed to the hospital. I didn't
really understand what happened, but my dad

316
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.559
told me that I needed to get
my stuff together so that we could go

317
00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:59.880
back to New Mexico. I believe
it was that same morning we jumped on

318
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:03.720
a flight and went back to Albuquerque. I remember that there was a state

319
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.799
police officer along with my mom and
my grandmother waiting for us at the airport.

320
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:11.279
As soon as we got there,
my mom told me what had happened.

321
00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:22.200
Jacob passed away overnight. My sweet
little brother was gone, and I'll

322
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:29.240
never forget that day. I'll never
forget that feeling. So what happened next

323
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:36.000
was a little bit challenging for me
to understand because I was so young,

324
00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:41.839
But my mom ended up staying with
her boyfriend at the time and things just

325
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.039
got worse from there. So we'll
go back to the conversation I had with

326
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:52.200
my mom to talk about this,
so you can hear exactly what happened after

327
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:57.680
Jacob died. We'll be right back
after a brief commercial break. AD free

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00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:06.759
episodes are available at patreon dot com
slash Tapes from the dark Side. I'm

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just you know, I can't even
imagine what kind of monster it takes to

330
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:18.799
to hurt somebody. Can't even hurt
anybody. And not only that, like,

331
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:22.200
and maybe we're biased, but he
was, like he was so sweet

332
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.960
and so like funny and happy and
cute, like he was such a good

333
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:30.519
kid. It was even though he
was a little bit crazy. There's no

334
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:34.440
reason to beat him to death just
because he's a baby. Yeah, there's

335
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:40.079
no excuse for that. That's just
like an animal. What kind of animal

336
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:45.519
would hurt child like that? I
don't understand still to this day, I

337
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:48.640
don't. I don't think I ever
will understand. I don't think. I

338
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:53.599
don't think we ever will, because
I don't think that we have the capability

339
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:59.079
to be that evil inside of us, you know, like I think you

340
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:03.319
were understand that. I know,
I don't. I wanted to hurt him

341
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:08.039
as bad as he hurt me and
I couldn't. Yeah, because I'm not

342
00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:12.480
that person. I'll never get it. How can you hurt somebody that can't

343
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:19.519
even fight back, can't even say
helped me? Just doesn't make sense that

344
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:25.960
you have so much hatred in your
heart that he would just dispose of a

345
00:29:26.119 --> 00:29:34.720
baby like trash, freaking sad.
I almost feel like like everything he said

346
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:38.480
about me and what he thought like, I feel like all of that was

347
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:44.400
basically him, Like he was jealous
of Jacob. He That's exactly right.

348
00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.640
Everything he said he was doing,
he would blame me for going out on

349
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:53.599
him. He was chasing after thirteen
year old kids, stalking kids that I

350
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:57.519
knew. You know, everything that
he accused me of, He was doing

351
00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:03.359
everything he accused you he was doing. He was doing it all. He

352
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:06.880
just thought he would never get caught. I thought he was so slick,

353
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.720
so sly. He thought he was
smart. Yeah, everybody, he's still

354
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:14.599
above the law and never gonna get
caught. Well, and he had all

355
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:19.880
those connections, yea, friends with
the working for the county, access to

356
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:25.839
all the files. They don't know
how they disappeared. I'm not really comfortable

357
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:33.359
asking you these questions because I know, um, whatever you want to know

358
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.839
him. I'm willing to answer it. I know. I just don't want

359
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.200
you to feel like I. I
don't blame you for anything that you did.

360
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:45.960
I don't know and I don't feel
bad. Just whatever you want to

361
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.640
know, just ask me, because
I'm not gonna take it like like you

362
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:53.559
think I am. I just have
to get the story out, you know,

363
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:56.720
And so you have to know.
That's why I'm willing to talk to

364
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:06.519
you. So um you know it's
you told me this already. I just

365
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:11.759
need you to say it for this
purpose. But like, why did you

366
00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:18.559
stay with him after that? The
only thing that I cared about is finding

367
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.640
out what happened to my son.
I didn't care about anything else. I

368
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.279
just wanted to know the truth.
I wanted to know what happened to Jacob,

369
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.680
and I stayed with him because,
like I said, I wanted to

370
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:33.920
hurt him like the way he hurt
me, and my mind wasn't right and

371
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:37.559
I wasn't thinking right. And if
I would ever known he was like that,

372
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.759
I would have never ever ever been
around him that I didn't know.

373
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.279
He hit it so good. He
told me everything I wanted to hear.

374
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:51.200
He was so charming, and such
a colun artist that I really thought he

375
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:53.359
loved me. He didn't love me. He just wanted to use me.

376
00:31:53.440 --> 00:32:00.119
And you know, keep that over
my head for three years. Um he

377
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:05.279
abused me. He put a knife
to my throat and he said the only

378
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.880
way I was going to get away
from him would be in a body bag.

379
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:12.200
When you have a dagger to your
throat, you know, they say

380
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.000
how are you leaving after they beat
you and put a dagger to your throat

381
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.720
and say that to you, And
of course you're gonna say no. You

382
00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.759
know how you're gonna leave when they're
trying to stab you in the throat and

383
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:30.200
kill you right there. It's scary. Well I remember, and maybe I'm

384
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:36.680
wrong, but I feel like after
Jacob died there was a good two or

385
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:45.119
three years where it was relatively calm. He was just like he hit out.

386
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:49.839
He wouldn't even come around me.
For a week. After Jacob died,

387
00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:52.640
I had to go look for him
to see, you know, what's

388
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:57.119
going on. I didn't know what
was going on or what happened, or

389
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:01.200
all I kept saying is it was
an it was an accident, and meet

390
00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:05.559
me at the graveyard so I could
talk to you, Why am I going

391
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:07.200
to meet him at the graveyard when
he put my son in the graveyard?

392
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:10.240
Yeah, you know, I'm thinking
he's going to kill me over there.

393
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:16.359
Well I read that in the investigative
report, and I thought that was really

394
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:21.960
weird that he I mean even for
him, not just once, but over

395
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:23.720
and over and over anyone. I
mean to go meet him at the graveyard

396
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:30.759
to talk to him at the graveyard. That's so creepy, like that is

397
00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:36.880
shick. Yeah, who murders somebody
and then tries to take the mother of

398
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:39.640
the child you murdered to the grave
of the kid. That don't make sense

399
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:44.680
at all. That's just like what. I can't even understand that. Like

400
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.799
I'm not a psychologist or anything,
but I just I always try to figure

401
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:52.799
you know, I always try to
think about that, like what what what

402
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:57.160
logic is it? I can't there's
no logic. And then yeah, I

403
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:00.680
think I wanted to kill me.
I still think he wants to kill me.

404
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:07.159
But I'm going to speak my truth
no matter what. For Jacob.

405
00:34:07.239 --> 00:34:12.519
He did have a voice and he
deserves one. And I couldn't for the

406
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:19.599
longest time even talk about it.
When did he start hitting you? After

407
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:23.880
Jacob died, everything changed after I
don't know what. He told me that

408
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:29.039
he had to get married to me
because he filed some kind of papers and

409
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:31.239
he was going to go to prison, a big old story. I don't

410
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:37.679
know what it was, but he
called me into marrying him. I married

411
00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:42.039
him with the JP. After all
of it was over, I wouldn't ask

412
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:45.239
the judge for an a moment,
and I was granted one because it was

413
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:52.639
so violent that nobody deserves that is
what the judge said. So it's erased.

414
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.239
Every those years after the fact,
that wasn't That was three years.

415
00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:01.199
It was from eighty seven until nineteen
ninety. And every time he kept telling

416
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:05.079
me, I'm gonna tell you what
happened. When I tell you what really

417
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:09.760
happened, and he never did.
And when I finally got the autopsy twenty

418
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:14.960
forty pages, I don't even know
how long it is because I can't get

419
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:20.760
through it, and it's all outlined
right there what happened to him. I

420
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.480
don't know how much of this,
you know. After Jacob died, things

421
00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:28.440
started changing, you know. I
mean, he was obviously he was hitting

422
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:37.039
you, and I remember I think
we were still on the other side of

423
00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:39.679
the freeway. We were still kind
of in that same neighborhood where we lived

424
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:45.360
and Jacob died because I think it
was we were living in a single wide

425
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:51.719
at that time before we got the
double wide, right, And I remember

426
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:54.320
one day we were going to go
somewhere as a family with it was like

427
00:35:54.440 --> 00:36:00.159
you, me, his kids,
him and and you guys were fighting the

428
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:07.320
night before when you were all like
black and blue. Yeah, the bruises

429
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:12.280
on your arms, your eye was
black. I remember we were all lined

430
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:17.239
up almost like like we're in the
military, all for us. And he

431
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:22.920
was walking back and forth and he
said, if somebody asks what happened to

432
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:30.599
your mom, what are you going
to say? Over and over and over

433
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:37.559
again until I said this answer that
he wanted, and until it was perfect,

434
00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:40.719
and until he believed me. And
I almost felt like he was kind

435
00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:49.239
of like brainwashing us. And also
he would like get in my face and

436
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:54.199
be like, if you fucked this
up, I'm going to kill your mom,

437
00:36:55.119 --> 00:37:00.119
like real quiet, so that even
his kids couldn't hear it. But

438
00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:02.480
he was like right in front of
my face. There's a lot of things

439
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:08.119
that happened that I never told you, because he always threatened to kill us,

440
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:19.000
and I believed him. I believe
that brother's in the grave. I

441
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:27.840
knew he was definitely capable of it. Like there were times when when it

442
00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:30.719
was just him and I know his
kids were with their mom and you were

443
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:39.159
at work or something. This was
like in the double wide on Main Street.

444
00:37:43.719 --> 00:37:51.719
I wouldn't be allowed to leave my
room all day, Like I couldn't

445
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:55.079
even go to the bathroom. And
I remember I had all this stuff in

446
00:37:55.119 --> 00:38:00.119
my room. And at first I
thought I was like, oh, I'm

447
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:01.960
a lucky kid. I have a
TV ab and Nintendo. I have a

448
00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:07.320
refrigerator. I have all this stuff
in my room that most kids don't have.

449
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:15.719
But I think that was his way
of imprisoning me. And so I

450
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:20.719
would have to knock on my door
and I'd have to ask for permission to

451
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:23.000
the restroom, and if he felt
like I didn't really need to go,

452
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:30.360
then I didn't get to go.
I didn't know that it gets worse.

453
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:35.880
I'm sorry, it's a lot worse. And I didn't tell you, not

454
00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:37.639
because I didn't trust you, but
because I could want you to fucking die.

455
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:44.719
You know, um, one time
he locked me in my closet and

456
00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:46.239
you put the dining chair against the
door, so I couldn't get out of

457
00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:50.960
it because he was mad about something. I don't remember what it was.

458
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:52.760
But I couldn't even be in my
room. I had to be in the

459
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:58.960
closet. I just I never told
you. I feel bad about that.

460
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.280
But I also didn't want us to
get killed either. He was always trying

461
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:07.039
to save our lives, at least
that's what I felt like. And I

462
00:39:07.079 --> 00:39:12.239
remember always feeling like like we were
walking on eggshells. I mean, do

463
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:14.880
you remember when he would get mad
if I gave him what he thought was

464
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:17.920
a dirty look. Yeah, I
would clean the bedroom, his cycle,

465
00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:25.519
anything, any little wrong movement,
say something wrong, you'd do something wrong.

466
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:30.239
Everybody help breaks loose. We I
mean we didn't. I don't feel

467
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:34.039
like we really did anything wrong ever, you know what I mean, Like,

468
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:38.360
I don't feel like we did not
seem to deserve that. Yeah,

469
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:43.320
he's the one with the problem.
I mean, there are times where he'd

470
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.079
be like, stopped looking at me
like that, and then I would just

471
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:50.920
look down. And so I spent
a lot of the time just looking at

472
00:39:50.920 --> 00:39:53.679
the floor because I was afraid that
if I even just looked at him,

473
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:58.000
that he was gonna start beating the
shit out of you, and then I

474
00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:00.039
would get locked in my room and
you know what I mean, like it

475
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:02.840
was going to be the same shit. It wasn't even about you, it

476
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:07.920
was just anything I did. It
wasn't it was if he felt guilty,

477
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.159
he would come home and beat on
me because of what he was doing.

478
00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:15.719
Wasn't even like nothing to do with
us. I think the point though,

479
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:20.840
is that like we never knew what
was going to send him over the edge.

480
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:28.480
Yeah, it literally could be anything
or nothing. Sometimes you feel it's

481
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.199
hard to react to a psychopath.
It's hard to be prepared because you never

482
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:37.039
know, right. I mean,
it explains a lot of why we're both

483
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.159
the way that we are. In
a lot of ways. You know,

484
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:45.480
we're very we can both be very
reactive and very emotional about things, and

485
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:52.440
it makes sense that we would have
those reactions because we couldn't even look at

486
00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:55.159
him. Yeah, I can't even
move without where you're going? What're you

487
00:40:55.239 --> 00:41:00.519
doing? Or like even just like
the way I ate, didn't they sing?

488
00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:07.599
And I think that really caused me
to have a lot of hatred for

489
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:15.320
myself because I felt like I was
bad and damaged and wrong and I started

490
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:21.159
like I started to believe that you
do it. I put it into you

491
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:23.519
so much that you actually believe it. Every time something would happen, he

492
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:27.679
would always say, if anybody finds
out about this, I'm gonna kill you.

493
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:32.320
I'm gonna kill your mom. And
I slept with I had a can

494
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:39.400
of aquainette and a lighter and a
steak knife under my pillow and a bat

495
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:46.480
under my bed. That's scary,
but I knew I needed to do something

496
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:53.559
to protect myself. And I don't
know if you remember this one time.

497
00:41:55.519 --> 00:42:00.719
It was like the middle of the
afternoon and he had locked me and his

498
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:07.480
kids in our room and he was
beating the shot out of you for a

499
00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:14.960
long time, and then you stopped
screaming. Yeah, I remember, and

500
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:22.239
I broke out of my room through
the window. I busted the screaming window

501
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:25.840
out, and I started throwing rocks
at your room window. He was saving

502
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:31.599
my life. She was choking me
with the wire hanger because I kept telling

503
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:37.599
him I was gonna leave, and
I was gonna leave. I choked me

504
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:43.000
to I almost used out, and
when you jumped out the window, go

505
00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:47.519
to mouth with me. And that's
only thing. Let's save my life.

506
00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:53.719
I remember he chased me out of
the house and I ran across the street

507
00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:57.559
to the neighbors because I was friends
with that little boy. And I was

508
00:42:57.559 --> 00:42:59.599
like banging on their door. I'm
like, let me, and he's gonna

509
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:01.400
kill me. I mean, he's
gonna kill me. They pulled me inside.

510
00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:07.360
They already knew what was happening.
I think they had two ice creams

511
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:09.880
loud as like good. Nobody would
ever help. I mean there was a

512
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:19.199
state cop. Yeah, maybe three
houses away. It wasn't far enough not

513
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:23.599
to hear um. But she pulled
me in the house and she loved me.

514
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:29.800
That the parents, they we all
got along. She used to go

515
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:35.960
read to their little boy, you're
a good kid. And I remember I

516
00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:37.880
said, call the cops. He's
gonna kill us. It was like nineteen

517
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:43.440
ninety. Probably moved into that other
trailer when I left him. I feel

518
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:47.559
like he wasn't being as violent as
like. I feel like the double wife

519
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:52.760
was the worst. Yeah. I
don't know why, but I went cycle

520
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:58.239
in there all the time like a
jackal, and I one day's happy and

521
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:01.920
smiling, in the next day kill
you. Literally, I wonder what the

522
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:06.360
hell is going on? Because then
I feel like after we moved to that

523
00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:12.880
single way, it calmed down a
lot because he was busy stalking somebody else

524
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:16.960
instead of us, my cousin trying
to he had to bust up and do

525
00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:24.039
all kinds of stupid stuff. So
she was fourteen, and he was making

526
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:28.880
like lude calls. He was calling
her and telling her to come over when

527
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:31.360
all at work, and he thinks
she spoke pretty. And I get mad

528
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:37.800
at him because he's always staring at
her and all this garbage. But she's

529
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:43.320
she's my little savior because she told
me, and she told him in his

530
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:50.920
face. She was very outspoken,
happy for my family. Yeah, she

531
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:54.320
didn't care. She told me right
there from the gout and everybody, and

532
00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:59.920
that's what you needed. Somebody to
help you get out before they kill you.

533
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:02.519
Yeah, it's somebody that's going to
stand up and tell you the truth

534
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:06.800
in front of their face. And
then I just don't care how the high

535
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:10.239
water is coming out. I think
she saved both of us. She did.

536
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:15.920
I don't even know she knows she
does, because she went with me

537
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:19.559
when I left him, because I
took the cup and I took her and

538
00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:22.760
I took my sister. And that's
all I needed as her and her being

539
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:31.400
mop didn't. I got away.
Wow, I'm really great we got away.

540
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:37.000
I'm grateful for her because I I
think if we would have stayed there,

541
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:42.519
I would have never told you anything. I don't think he would have

542
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:45.920
allowed it. But she really didn't
have any reason to be afraid because she

543
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:49.519
wasn't in it. She didn't know
what was happening. And yeah, and

544
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:52.480
I think even if I think,
even like if she was there, she

545
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:53.960
would have she still would have told. She would have been mouthing off to

546
00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:57.679
him the whole time. Yeah,
I'm not gonna say that to them.

547
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.719
I'm not gonna lie for you.
I'm gonna O. Then do you hit

548
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:04.320
her? Like? That's exactly who
she would be exactly. She don't care.

549
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:09.199
Oh, it's too scary what you
had a reason. We're both too

550
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:14.320
scared, and we both had a
reason. You don't take I'm gonna kill

551
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:17.000
you lightly. I'm gonna kill your
mom lately, especially when they already killed

552
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:22.480
your brother. Yeah. So I
get asked this question all the time,

553
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:28.119
and honestly, I don't know how
to answer it. But I think it's

554
00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:31.440
a question we both probably ask ourselves
all the time, which is how is

555
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:40.599
he still free? Who knows?
That's just like, why did they never

556
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:46.559
press charges or do anything question somebody
and just let them go after they admit

557
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:52.360
what they did. That's ridiculous.
I don't understand it. Still. I

558
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:57.719
was shocked when I was reading the
investigation report and at the end where it

559
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:02.480
says a certain officer told the investigator
that allowed detective test would not be necessary

560
00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:08.480
inasmuch as they obtained a confession.
But why they still do it? They

561
00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:15.440
still did allow detective test that he
felt it mentions the confession twice, so

562
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:17.440
welcome. They didn't do nothing to
him? Why they cover it up?

563
00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:23.320
Yeah? When it's right there in
black and white, Like I don't understand

564
00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:31.239
hematoma and subdural hematoma, but I
know that's not something good. All those

565
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:37.760
injuries he sustained. Yeah, you
know, I don't understand doctors terms.

566
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:42.079
But it's blood. He basically was
bleeding inside of his He was killed.

567
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:47.480
He hit him, He hit him
well. And there points in there where

568
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:53.079
the medical investigator or the investigating officer, um, there's a couple of other

569
00:47:53.119 --> 00:48:00.719
people certificate very clear, yes it's
homicide. By it's right there. Why

570
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:06.480
didn't they do something? Yeah,
what else do you need. I don't

571
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:15.119
understand how he never like he never
even had a grand jury trial, let

572
00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:19.719
alone a prosecution trial. Like he
had nothing. He never had to answer.

573
00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:22.440
He said he did one night in
jail one night, and then he

574
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:28.920
was gone the next day as Daddy
took him out. What's up? And

575
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:34.719
then you go hide. That's not
a guilt, that's so. I know

576
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:39.360
you were like pressuring the DA after
you left him to do something at least

577
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:45.679
pressuring everybody was raising hell. I
remember, I just didn't understand why I

578
00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:51.679
didn't do nothing. I'm still and
I wrote letters and I never got responses,

579
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:54.840
and I just didn't know what to
do. Once I could talk about

580
00:48:54.880 --> 00:49:00.400
it, and I didn't know he
was a liar, and everything you said

581
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:07.719
was it Once I got to one
thing that um amaze me about you,

582
00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:13.599
amazes me still about you, is
that you're probably the best person I've ever

583
00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:19.840
seen at documenting things Like I don't
know anybody that's as good as you at

584
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:23.440
that just does a reason. Well, I know it's you're smart about it.

585
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:29.159
When you go to trup to court
and you're trying to get a restraining

586
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:32.119
order on somebody and you say,
well, did he hit me? What

587
00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:36.360
day did he hit you? What
time did he hit you? What kind

588
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:38.719
of stupid question is how like he's
beating on me and you want me to

589
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:44.920
check the time and check the day, like seriously. So once they did

590
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:49.280
that to me, forget it all. Write down. So I read through

591
00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:53.800
a lot of your notes, and
a lot of it took me, took

592
00:49:53.840 --> 00:50:00.199
me back there, like I remember
those days. I remember him like being

593
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:06.000
right by my window saying shit to
me through the window, like I'm gonna

594
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:08.320
kill you, and all this ship
when I was like eleven or twelve,

595
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:13.360
still trying to stalk us, and
I used to be so afraid, like

596
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:15.400
I would sleep under my bed and
remember the orange bunk bed I had,

597
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:22.079
like the Ninja Turtles blanket. I
remember I had like Nina Turtles blanket,

598
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:25.480
pillowcase and the trash can, yeah, and the curtains. But he would

599
00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:30.079
be like on the fucking killing So
I sleep under the bottom bunk or in

600
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:34.159
haroom or in your room. And
you're like, I don't know if you

601
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:39.119
remember, but my personality, like
who I am now, I was not

602
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:45.840
like that. When you him,
you're really scared and look scared to talk

603
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:51.800
and a lot. You've changed a
lot. It became Eric instead of who

604
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:55.199
somebody's trying to make you be or
make you confess to, or whatever he's

605
00:50:55.239 --> 00:51:00.039
trying to do. I don't understand
that either, because I remember, Um,

606
00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:05.440
you know, I remember Anti used
to get mad at me because I

607
00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:08.840
would apologize like all the time for
nothing. I was just like I literally

608
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:12.559
would just walk around saying I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I

609
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:16.880
made you feel like everything you did
is wrong, was wrong, like everything,

610
00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:23.480
even breathing, I guess, breathing, eating, having my eyes open,

611
00:51:24.360 --> 00:51:28.800
it's just existing. So yeah,
so I remember I used to get

612
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:30.360
in trouble because people would yell at
me for saying sorry, and then I

613
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:34.239
would say sorry. So I was
saying sorry too much, and like I

614
00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:39.519
just I was a scared little boy, you know. I was. Yeah,

615
00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:45.159
there's no other way to say it. I never made eye contact with

616
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:49.960
anybody, like I remember when you
started dating Dad and he used to yell

617
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.639
at me because I wouldn't make eye
contact. I wouldn't want to shake anybody's

618
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:59.880
hand. And like before all that, I was a happy, hyper regular

619
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:05.519
little boy, little kid. You
don't have to watch everything you did.

620
00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:10.079
I used to say, choir and
plays and all kinds of stuff. Sucker.

621
00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:15.119
Yeah, it took me. I
think it took me a good year

622
00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:20.239
or two before I finally started to
come out of that. We had to

623
00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:23.079
realize that I wasn't going to go
back to him, ever. I think

624
00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:27.440
I was scared of that for sure. There's no way I would go back

625
00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:30.639
to something like that. And at
around that time too that I told you

626
00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:34.960
the other stuff you did to me, I want to talk about that on

627
00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:39.480
here. Yeah, that's why,
because you opened up to men you never

628
00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:45.559
had before. Mental lot to me. I mean it's enough to say that

629
00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:52.840
he's a physical, mental, and
sexual abuser. Yeah that's too good at

630
00:52:52.880 --> 00:53:00.760
words, But yeah, sadly and
a psychopath and a murderer and a murderer

631
00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:09.159
and a child sure number one hurt. Somebody that can't even defend ourselves,

632
00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:19.119
that's a sad person. So I
know that for you and me, we've

633
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:28.800
been sitting on this for thirty years. We both have really I think had

634
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:32.880
our time. Our whole family.
Really, our whole family changed after Jacob

635
00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:42.159
died, like even everybody, even
the way they interacted with us as our

636
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:50.199
family changed, the relationships that we
had with them changed like he literally perverted

637
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:57.320
every aspect of our lives, just
try to literally destroy us, even with

638
00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:02.960
our own family. And so you
know, of course we love our family

639
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:10.559
still and we're not We don't blame
them for anything. It's hard to I

640
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:15.760
don't know how I would react in
a situation like that either. I mean,

641
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:21.320
it was shocking. It was so
shocking for everybody because everybody loved Jacob

642
00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:24.400
and he was healthy and there's no
reason for that to happen. And I

643
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:30.360
don't think our family had experienced anything
like that at that level ever Before that,

644
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:36.760
people got sick and eyed, but
we've never experienced like murder. You

645
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:44.320
know, when you're growing up with
somebody and you go to church with them,

646
00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:45.920
and you go to school with them, and you think they're normal,

647
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:52.079
and they act normal and prisons themselves
to the world as normal, but inside

648
00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:57.639
they're really Jacol and I'd monster killer, you know, soon sounds like a

649
00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:02.719
movie, but it's for real,
and they can just go on every day

650
00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:08.320
and it's not even linked twice about
it. I don't get it. You

651
00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:13.960
know, people that I know that
I'm close to when I said I was

652
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:15.400
going to do this episode, when
I did the podcast first of all,

653
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:21.119
and I talked about Jacob a little
bit. A lot of people were like,

654
00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:25.840
you didn't tell me that your brother
was murdered. Yeah, I didn't.

655
00:55:25.880 --> 00:55:30.440
I don't. I don't walk around
talking about this all the time,

656
00:55:30.679 --> 00:55:35.159
you know, not a topic of
conversation. It's not something that I enjoy

657
00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:42.440
talking about. It's not something that
I am comfortable talking about, honestly,

658
00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:47.559
because it hurts so much. And
even in like the safety of my mom's

659
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:57.400
house, it's still hard. It
still hurts, it's still fresh. Yeah.

660
00:55:57.760 --> 00:56:06.079
So you know, I just I
get so mad when I get accused

661
00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:13.360
of using Jacob's death to make money
or to get famous or whatever. Like

662
00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:15.119
I don't want any of that.
I don't even care about that. Like

663
00:56:15.159 --> 00:56:22.000
I'm losing money on this podcast,
and it's not about that at all.

664
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.480
In fact, the only reason I'm
doing this, the only reason I'm telling

665
00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:30.360
this story, is because I think
it's important for people to understand that New

666
00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:39.159
Mexico has always always failed at taking
care of children. Yeah, and that

667
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:44.480
all of this stuff that's happening and
that has been happening. The only reason

668
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:46.480
we're more aware of it now is
because we have the Internet and because we

669
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:52.559
have news instantly at our fingertips.
This stuff has been happening forever. New

670
00:56:52.599 --> 00:57:00.239
Mexico has failed its kids forever in
a lot of ways. We're lasting education,

671
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:04.679
we're first in child abuse. You
know, we have so many horrible

672
00:57:04.679 --> 00:57:09.440
statistics, and you know, the
fact that people are getting away with it

673
00:57:09.480 --> 00:57:15.400
is not surprising to me. She's
not getting fit, It's not And so

674
00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:20.320
the only reason I'm doing this,
well, maybe there's two. The first

675
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:28.159
reason is I want people to pay
attention. I want people to be fucking

676
00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:34.000
outraged that this is continuing to happen. I want people to stop not caring

677
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:38.639
about what's going on around them because
they don't like politics or whatever, because

678
00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:44.079
it's like, if we continue to
just ignore this shit, it's going to

679
00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:47.760
just keep getting worse. So that's
the first part. The second part is

680
00:57:50.000 --> 00:57:55.840
I fucking want justice. Yep,
I want justice for Jacob. I agree.

681
00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:05.920
I want him to pay for what
he did to my brother here an

682
00:58:05.920 --> 00:58:09.519
hour after two. Yeah, I
want him to pay for what he did

683
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:15.760
to you and to me and to
our cousin. My cousin yea. He

684
00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:25.320
should not be allowed to live a
happy life free of any worries at all,

685
00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:29.760
there's no reason for it. There's
no excuse. He should rot in

686
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:32.559
a fucking prison. We have to
go to towne and wonder if we're going

687
00:58:32.599 --> 00:58:37.480
to see him or not. Like
that's just disgusting. So he's free and

688
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:44.000
happy, go lucky. You know, he got away with it ridiculous and

689
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:52.119
his family. I rather something that
he documented where somebody I won't say their

690
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:55.920
name, but they approached you and
came to my house. That was when

691
00:58:55.960 --> 00:59:04.840
we lived over there on slops like
the things that that person said. She

692
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:10.639
knows, she knows exactly what happened, and she didn't even see my paperwork.

693
00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:15.119
She I mean, she's she said
a couple of times we tried to

694
00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:19.280
warn you not to be with him. We tried to tell you when you

695
00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:22.880
didn't listen to us exactly, and
they never did. What the fuck does

696
00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:29.960
that mean? She knows he's a
psycho. I don't know. That's I've

697
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:34.679
been scratching my head ever since that
day. So this is when you were

698
00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:37.320
like gung ho, trying to get
somebody to listen to you, going to

699
00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:39.719
the DIA, going to the police, Yeah, trying to get it going

700
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:44.639
and get something. Why aren't you
guys doing anything. Why did you not

701
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:47.360
do anything? Ever? Like I
have this hot top three report, what's

702
00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:52.280
going on? Like? Who come
this take off and waiting for us at

703
00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:54.119
the hospital? Why didn't they take
him? You know he was there,

704
00:59:55.079 --> 00:59:59.719
he was there. Why didn't they
take him? There's no reason not to,

705
01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:02.039
Like, I don't get it.
Did they pay him off or what?

706
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:07.440
Well, the DA was well before
that, So the DA I remember

707
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:12.000
you. I actually read in here
in your documentation, which I'm like super

708
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:15.119
grateful that you did all of that
because it really tells the whole story.

709
01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:19.440
But how he said that you changed
your story and that's why he didn't prosecute.

710
01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:22.320
That's why he didn't press charges.
And when I look back at what

711
01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:27.360
your story was, it wasn't a
story. They asked you if you felt

712
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:30.559
like he was capable of hurting Jacob, and you said, I don't think

713
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:35.360
so exactly. So that's not your
story. No, that's you answering a

714
01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:38.840
question, right right. I didn't
think he was. For why I would

715
01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:42.800
I leave my kid with him?
Nobody thought he was, and we thought

716
01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:45.760
he was this great person, like
there's no way I would send my son

717
01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:49.719
to somebody that was like that.
If I knew and I didn't change my

718
01:00:49.800 --> 01:00:52.119
story. Ever, I guess the
problem for me, and I think that

719
01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:59.039
bothers me the most, is that
just the blatant corruption and the blatant like

720
01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:06.920
lack of any kind of human understanding, empathy, willingness to just fucking listen,

721
01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:12.239
you know, Like we get maybe
two feet forward, start talking to

722
01:01:12.280 --> 01:01:14.960
a cold case investigative with state police, and then it just falls off the

723
01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:17.800
face of the earth, nothing happened. Just who does good? It would

724
01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:23.719
merger. Basically, I made a
free im moving information at request for everything

725
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:28.920
related to this case from the state
Police. Good, and I'm gonna do

726
01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:35.039
another one with the county and another
one with the Sea because I feel like

727
01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:39.559
there's probably a lot more to this
than we even know. I wouldn't be

728
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:47.320
surprised surprise they never did anything.
I'm just done why still to this day,

729
01:01:50.920 --> 01:01:54.440
so I think we're at a good
like stopping place almost, But I

730
01:01:54.480 --> 01:02:02.960
do want to just get your last
thoughts about what do you want to happen.

731
01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:10.360
I just think if the story touches
even one life, if it helps

732
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:15.840
even one person not to have to
go to what we did, it would

733
01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:22.400
be worth telling. I want Jacob
to have justice. Because it's not right

734
01:02:22.559 --> 01:02:25.440
that he couldn't talk, and you
know, I couldn't talk, and it

735
01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:32.400
took thirty three years for me to
let the story out. And you know,

736
01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:37.559
I'm so proud of you, what
you've done and what you're doing,

737
01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:45.280
and I believe in you, and
thank you for giving Jacobo voice and all

738
01:02:45.320 --> 01:02:51.000
the other kids. It's too late
for mine, but it's not too late

739
01:02:51.079 --> 01:02:55.039
for somebody else's. If you see
the science, if your baby's scared,

740
01:02:55.679 --> 01:03:00.599
if they're holding on to you,
they don't want to let go, something's

741
01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:06.039
wrong, pay attention to those science. Don't leave your babies with your boyfriends.

742
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:08.880
They might be good kin artists.
And oh, I'll watch him,

743
01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:14.400
I'll watch him. Don't do it, gold, You're good. You know

744
01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:17.280
I felt it and I couldn't do
nothing about it because I was stuck at

745
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:22.440
work. But I knew something was
wrong, and look what happened. And

746
01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:28.519
I didn't pay attention to the science
because I didn't believe it. Because I've

747
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:30.360
known him. I went to church
with him, I went to school with

748
01:03:30.440 --> 01:03:37.079
him. I thought I knew this
person, and I didn't at all.

749
01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:45.880
And I just want if it saves
one child, if without school mother withouts

750
01:03:45.960 --> 01:03:52.039
one son and not to go through
this. That's what I want. Thank

751
01:03:52.079 --> 01:04:02.800
you, Thank you. Not easy
anything worthwhile? Is it? Thanks again

752
01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:09.599
for listening to True Consequences. Follow
us on social media on Instagram and Facebook

753
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:16.280
at True Consequences Pod and on Twitter
at Truecon's Pod. True Consequences is hosted,

754
01:04:16.639 --> 01:04:21.800
written, and produced by me your
host, Eric Carter ln Dean.

755
01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:42.599
Thanks for listening and stay safety New
Mexico. It's teasy again. What an

756
01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:47.440
intense conversation. Thank you again to
Eric for letting me post this. And

757
01:04:47.519 --> 01:04:50.360
if you want to support Tapes from
the dark Side, you can go to

758
01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:58.280
patreon dot com slash Tapes from the
dark Side. Until next time, try

759
01:04:58.280 --> 01:04:59.280
to enjoy the daylight.