S8, AFTERSHOW: tori4fun w/ Bob Motta

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Today. My guest on the after
show is Bob Mada from the podcast Defense

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Diaries. He is a former defense
attorney and he's going to help us break

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down the legal case against Eleanor Hunton
Hoppy. We also review some information from

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this case that we haven't yet covered, And just to let you all know,

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I'm keeping an eye on the updates
about this trial and if anything else

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comes out, then I'll be adding
more episodes this season. My conversation with

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Bob lasted over an hour and a
half, which will probably be more than

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enough to keep you interested and entertained. But just as what happened with the

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last time I talked with Bob,
we got into a discussion of plenty of

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other stuff, including psychedelics, some
of the cases he's covering next, and

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what happened with the case of Lucy
Study, which is a particularly interesting story.

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The pre and post co versation that
I had with Bob he's allowed me

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to include in the Patreon version of
this episode. It's about forty five minutes

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extra, and I've tagged it onto
the end of this podcast for our Patreon

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and Apple Plus subscribers, So stick
around if you're hearing this on our Premium

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version, and after the credits music
plays out, I'll put the bonus conversation

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in there for you. Thank you
to everyone who supports us on Patreon.

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Independent podcasts like this one really only
exists truly because of you guys and your

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generosity. If you want to support
the show, go to patreon dot com.

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Slash Tapes from the dark Side side
descriptions of violence than sexuality. Listener

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discretion is advice. Yeah, yeah, welcome to the Tapes from the Dark

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Side After show Today, I have
with me Bob Matta once again from the

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fabulous podcast Defense Diaries. It's now
in its second season with also an offshoot

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side show called The Docket. Thank
you so much for being with us today,

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Bob. My pleasure t Z.
You know I love hanging with you

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man. Yeah, our second meeting. Here we go. Let's see how

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far into Aliens, how fast we
can get into Aliens and chat Gypt without

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talking to me. This case is
nasty, dude, so it's like,

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you know, and it's all that
tech shit, so you never know.

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Well, no, that's a good
leadway because I just kind of wanted to

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get your initial thoughts about this case. We're talking about the Tory for fun

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two episodes and it's the case of
Eleanor Hunting Hoppy, And I was going

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to get your initial thoughts and also
if you've ever worked a case like this

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or anything of that sort. Yeah, So I had not heard of the

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case until you hit me up and
you had sent me both your rough cuts

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for part one and part two.
I listened to those. I also read

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the articles, so I kind of
familiarized myself with the case. I additionally

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also like started doing a little research
to see if I could dig up anymore

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shit, which you know, I
found some stuff. I'm sure you'd seen

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it as well, like the kind
of the most interesting thing that I found

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was the actual complaint that the Feds
filed, which kind of lays out,

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you know, how they got her, and like the graphic details in which

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some of these text messages were being
exchanged between the undercover and her. You

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know. But my first thought,
you know, when when I kind of

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like dug into what what you were
putting down, man, I'm like,

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wow, you know, this is
unusual because it's usually men that are fucking

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creeps like that, you know,
not not women. So that that took

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me aback, like that that kind
of level of abuse coming from a woman,

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from a mother really kind of shocked
me. It's not to say that

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that you know, obviously that doesn't
exist in the world that you know.

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I guess mothers will abuse their their
children and in a sexual way, but

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I don't think it's nearly as prevalent
as men doing it. So yeah,

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that that was, you know,
And that was just like before I read

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anything, you know what I'm saying. So like, when I start like

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reading the text messages, the message
is going back and forth between these two

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man, it it like it rocked
me a little bit. I was like,

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wow, man, this this woman
is nasty. You know. It

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was like, man, it's it
like it kind of hit me in a

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way that like I hadn't I've never
tried a case where I've had a client

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that was a woman doing that.
I've had cases, unfortunately, where it

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was men doing that. You know. That's what I'm saying, Like I've

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like the frequency is infrequent in terms
of it being a woman perpetrator and these

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types of things. I mean just
generally speaking, like you know, if

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I'm in court, I rarely ever, if I'm just sitting there in a

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full courtroom waiting for my cases to
get called, and you know, the

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judges running through the docket, and
you know, they'll always step up and

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depending on what's you know, being
heard that particular morning, if it's an

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arrangement, I want to hear what
people are charged with, you know,

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and there's full courtroom, so I'm
usually hearing a lot of what is going

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down, man. And I can
honestly say in my twenty years that I

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don't know I've ever heard a woman
in my county or the counties that I

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practiced and getting charged with these things. Now, these are federal obviously,

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and like kind of delineation right from
the forefront in terms of why it's federal

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is because it involved interstate travel.
You know, she was she was leaving

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Virginia and heading to where were they
going to meet in DC? Well,

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originally that that was actually a question
I had for you, because they were

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going to meet him Warrington, Virginia, so I don't think it was interstate.

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So I was also wondering, why
is it just because the FEDS picked

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her up? Or is it because
it was internet communication? Or Yeah,

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I mean there's that aspect of it, but the the other aspects there had

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to a bit hold on. I'm
looking through the complaint here because I want

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to see, yeah, because she
lived outside of Charlottesboro or sorry, Charlottesville,

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and then they were going to meet
him Warrington, which is not false

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from DC and the complaint that says. On March twenty twenty three, while

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discussing the sexual abuse that she intended
to perpetrate against the UC's daughter, it

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is it hopie or a hop or
hope hope our sorry hoppy hoppy hoppy okay,

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wrote the following quote, A great
think. It's a type of obviously

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to do is to wake her up
by trying new things in that hazy slash

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backslash dream like state is perfect intro
date. Yeah, introduce a variety of

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new things, especially with someone to
help with the positioning her body. And

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then when you fall, let her
fall right back to sleep and then the

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next payer episodes. A few days
later, on March twelve, twenty twenty

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three, while discussing the plan to
travel to DC, so that that's it,

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that's where they get there, that's
where you know, it's like wherever

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they ultimately pulled her to come,
like her impression because it was going to

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travel to DC to sexually abuse the
UC's purported eight year old daughter, because

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that was the original meeting place,
So that must have been that's why because

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DC is technically a federalist right though
it says because it does say that.

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During the afternoon hours of March sixteen, twenty twenty three, after some additional

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chat exchanges, Hopie or Hoppy and
the UC agreed that she would travel from

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her home in Charlottesville, VA to
a hotel located in Warranton, VA.

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At the time, she believed that
the UC would be bringing his proport That's

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where it is. That that's our
answer. So she believed that he would

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bring be bringing his purported eight year
old daughter from Washington, d C to

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the hotels, so that a Hopie
or how do you say it, hoppy

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hoppy hoppy Okay, and the UC
could sexually abuse a little girl together.

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So that there's our answer. So
the answer is that it was like there

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was still interstate travel involved, you
know, the the UC, the undercover

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was just bringing the child to her
so intense still there location. That's because

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even though DC's in Virginia, it's
technically a separate what would you call it

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your stiction or territory or yeah,
it's a yeah, it's a commonwealth.

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It's right, commonwealth or is it
a commonwealth? I think it's. I

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think it's a commonwealth. So yeah, it's it's technically like not a not

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a state. I got you,
Okay, okay, you know what I'm

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saying. Like, so it's its
own though. As a as a side

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note about the pronunciation, I actually
went through in the entire first episode,

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I called her is because an article
something I found miss name to her middle

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name. They said Eleanor Hunter,
and I said Hope because I just assumed,

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which is a horrible idea. I
assumed it was Hope. So the

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entire episode I recorded and I called, I said Eleanor Hunter, Hope,

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and I had to go back and
rerecord every time I said her name.

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So don't feel bad about it.
Yeah, Well, dude, I like

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I grew up with a like a
kid name, Glenn Hoppy, so like

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that's how I would have pronounced it, like he was like. There would

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be others and the Happy Brothers,
and my dad called them the Destructive Twins.

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They were two like red haired,
like red haired kids like gingers that

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were like super destructive. So that
was funny. I mean, they were

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my best friends, but yeah,
they were, so that that's why.

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So yeah, that's pronounced the same
way they pronounced their name. So yeah,

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so that answers that question. So, so it's the District of Columbia

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and commonly called DC. I want
him to see if it's considered if that

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is what it's called a commonwealth because
it's not a state, right, it

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is the district it is it is. It's the District Columbia. They used

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to formally call it that, but
all right, well whatever, but whatever

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the case may be, for the
purposes of federal statutes, it qualifies as

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crossing state lines or interstate ravel.
Well, this is a good This leads

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into a question I had for you, which is the sentencing. So she's

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facing up to life in prison,
which, right off the bat, I'm

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not saying I'm against that because I
think, you know, considering the evidence

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and the crime she was trying to
commit. But my question is how it

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seems like, Okay, I read
cases of like child abuse and it's like

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one year, six months, just
these very pedestrian sentences. So for somebody

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who didn't even commit a crime,
or did commit a crime but didn't actually

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abuse someone that they can prove of. Yet, how could it be?

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How could it be life in prison? Well, I mean it, so,

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federal sentencing is vastly different. So
I'm going to read you one of

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the So I pulled up the federal
statutes that she's been charged with. I

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don't want to read you a couple
of them. So the first one is

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section twenty four twenty two, and
that's the coercion and enticement. There's an

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A and a bee there. B
is the one that applies to her,

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and it's it reads as follows,
whoever, using the mail or facility,

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or means of interstate or foreign commerce, or within the specified maritime and territorial

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jurisdiction of the United States, knowingly
persuades, induces, entices, or courses

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any individual who has not attained the
age of eighteen to engage in prostitution or

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any sexual activity for which any person
could be charged with a criminal offense,

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or attempts to do so. Okay, that's like, that's where we're getting

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her with all of the attempt.
The attempt and the eyes of the federal

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statutes respect to these particular offenses is
the same as doing it okay, And

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so the penalty is she shall be
fined under this title and imprisoned for not

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less than ten or for life.
So there's a mass of like a massive

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gap there. So essentially what we'll
go on depending on how this thing shakes

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down. If she goes to trial
and she's found guilty, then then the

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sensing will happen. If she takes
a plea. The way sentencing works in

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federal with the Federal guidelines is vastly
completely different than the state. So,

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I mean, it's an entire like
if you were if I were to send

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you the like the Federal sentencing guidelines, it's it's probably about a seven hundred

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page book. So yeah, and
it basically it's a point system where they

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you know, you you gain points, you lose points based on various things.

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Typically, when you're negotiating with an
a USA, which is an Assistant

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US attorney, you know you're trying
to knock off a point or two because

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those points are would give you the
range, the sentencing range. So you

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know, considering that she probably has
no priors other than the one, you

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know, the little weird thing that
she got worse, she's out nude getting

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photographed at the end. She's a
she's a strange bird. I mean,

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she doesn't she doesn't have anything like
this right right, you know, and

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she didn't have anything substantial. She
definitely had that one charge, you know,

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which you know, it wasn't a
felony, but they'll they'll see it

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and it was sexual in nature.
So it's not going to be helpful,

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you know, for her at all
in terms of, you know, when

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they're trying to negotiate, if she's
going to plead, you know, because

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when the Feds come after you man, they don't lose. They rarely,

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rarely lose. They're you know,
they're typically their conviction rate is in the

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ninety eight nine conviction like you just, they don't lose. They take they

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take a long time to bring things
to court. You know, they take

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a long time to charge people,
like they'll sit on things and just build

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their case. It's it's vastly different
again, not only in sensing, but

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how they build their case in terms
of the amount of time that they take

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to to build their case so that
they know that they're coming in with a

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bulletproof case. Do you think that
the Feds could bring up her divorce,

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like her marriage and the divorce records
in the case. Yeah, I mean

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in terms of I mean, are
you talking about the fact that her husband

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like after the charges were her Well, let me let me read this to

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you because I I just found out
this information on the Daily Mail. Actually,

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I think I had come across it
very early, and then this article

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got buried in my bookmarks. I
just found it again and it's the only

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place I've found this information. So
let me just read this to you real

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fast. It says in his five
page complaint, obtained by dailymail dot Com.

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This is Joel Hope or Joel Hoppies, you know, part of their

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divorce records quote honor. About August
seven, twenty nineteen, defendant initiated sexual

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conduct and committed adultery by having oral
sex with a male partner not her spouse.

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On August twenty second, defendant has
sexual intercourse with a mail in the

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city of Charlottesville, Virginia. Subsequent
to those two sexual encounters, defendant has

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on frequent occasions attempted to engage other
men and women for sexual encounters and then,

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adding upon reasonable belief, defendant has
brought a sexual partner into the marital

205
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residence while minor children were present.
The AfOR said behavior exposes the minor children

206
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to risk of emotional harm. So
I mean, it'll be like I would

207
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assume that the government would argue that
it's four four B, you know,

208
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it's prior bad acts that they want
to try to get it in just to

209
00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:49.120
show her sexual proclivities. Obviously,
the defense will argue that it's not relevant

210
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:52.519
to this case, you know,
because the one thing you can't do with

211
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:57.120
that FOURL four B stuff is it
can't be character assassination, you know.

212
00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:02.679
I mean, ultimately the reality of
how it plays out is that's the way

213
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.759
that it it actually plays out.
But like you know, by the letter

214
00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:11.319
of the law, it can't be
your intent. You can't be using it

215
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:15.519
to show that you know, this
person is a bad character. So I

216
00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.519
mean, I'm certain that the Feds
will try to get it in, whether

217
00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:23.039
or not that the judge will allow. They'll they'll have they'll have hearings on

218
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:27.839
it, you know, because it's
it is, it's relevant in a sense,

219
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.079
you know, and it's also not
relevant. Like I mean, I

220
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.799
could certainly craft an argument as to
why it's not relevant as to what we're

221
00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:38.759
talking about with these charges. I
mean, we're talking about adults. They're

222
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:47.039
you know that like adultery old school
was it was a crime, It's not

223
00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:48.640
so much anymore. I mean,
I think it's still on the books in

224
00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:53.839
some states, but you know,
and in some states like Illinois, adultery

225
00:17:55.039 --> 00:18:00.640
is not a factor in terms of
the divorce itself when they're trying to delineate

226
00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:06.160
how to split up the marital assets, like in New York State, if

227
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I if I'm correct, I believe
that it is here. It doesn't matter,

228
00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:14.119
you know, because when I would
occasionally do a divorce case and I

229
00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:15.400
had a client who's like, oh, my wife cheated on me, so

230
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I have the divorce her. But
he was the breadwinner, and he's a

231
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.799
wait, like, but she cheated
on me, and now I have to

232
00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.359
pay her maintenance because I don't want
to be married to her anymore. You

233
00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:33.359
Like, that was a very difficult, difficult pill for me to get my

234
00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:37.200
client at to swallow man in which
understandably, you know, I like,

235
00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.039
I like that that's kind of a
hiccup in the law there, because it's

236
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.400
like, that's a tough thing,
that's that's a kind of situation where where

237
00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:48.200
people get crazy. You know what
I mean that that kind of situation is

238
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.920
where people do crazy shit. You
know, So let me let me ask

239
00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:59.240
you just off maybe your instinct,
if you just had to make a guess

240
00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:03.000
first you think the case will go
to trial, and if you do,

241
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.480
how much time? What would just
be your shot in the dark around what

242
00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:12.319
kind of sentence she actually would receive. It depends on what what she ends

243
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:18.480
up pleading out to. Like,
I think they've got her on the distribution

244
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:25.000
of child pornography, Like, I
mean that that they got her nailed pretty

245
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:26.920
good. They're going to be able
to show that it was her phone,

246
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.279
that it was her account, that
it was her doing the messaging, you

247
00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.039
know, because when they ended up
picking her up, when they arrest her,

248
00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:37.160
they grab her phone, you know, and there, there he's actually

249
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.759
able to see because at some point
they switched from using what'sapp or signal or

250
00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:47.440
whatever they were using whatever encrypted app
they were using, to like just texting.

251
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:49.920
From the forensic tech side of it, there, they've got it that

252
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:53.279
it's her and that it was her
using phone. Because typically, you know,

253
00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:56.640
you're only going to be able to
make the argument that it wasn't me.

254
00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:02.279
You know, like, if you
have the situation where somebody's distributing child

255
00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:04.920
porn, it's typically, well,
it could have been anybody in my house,

256
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.000
somebody else, you know, people
have access to it, like you

257
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:11.079
know, trying to throw the other
people now so under the boss. But

258
00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.359
you're creating, you're trying to create
like reasonable doubt that it did. You

259
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:18.680
know, it could have been multiple
people. It wasn't necessarily me. You

260
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.839
know, So with this, with
it being her phone, and they had

261
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:26.720
her showing her bare breast and her
face exactly with her with her thumb in

262
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:29.799
the picture and you can see the
bottom of her Yeah, she's done on

263
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:34.559
that. The more interesting arguments are
going to be the two other charges because

264
00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:40.559
her like and she clearly was thinking
about this ahead of time, you know,

265
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:42.599
in terms of like, well what
happens if this is like a reverse

266
00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:48.920
sting, Because she immediately waived her
Miranda rights and went in and gave a

267
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.599
statement, and in that statement she
says, I I wasn't coming here to

268
00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:55.759
abuse that child. It was coming
here to save that child from her father,

269
00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:59.000
right, and then you know,
so she she makes that statement,

270
00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:00.359
she's like, I wasn't like that's
not what I was I was doing the

271
00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.440
opposite of what you think I was
coming here to do. And then you

272
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:07.319
know, when they search your vehicle, then they of course find the bag

273
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with the you know, the little
pink robe she was talking about that she

274
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was bringing the big girl robe and
then like some kind of a mother should

275
00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:21.559
pink backpack. Yeah, yeah,
so that that kind of stuff. You

276
00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:25.880
know, it doesn't bode well for
her. So if I had to guess,

277
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.799
and it's tough, I mean,
she's going to get If I had

278
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:34.240
to guess, i'd I'd say somewhere
between seventeen and twenty years. Like,

279
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:38.200
I don't think she'll get life,
even though she maybe she might deserve it

280
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:44.000
well being forty five, you know, right, she'll be sixty five.

281
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.039
You know that's that's close to your
life. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

282
00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:52.599
And you know, and kind of
like you brought it up towards the end

283
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:57.000
of the second part that her family
happens to run this you know what the

284
00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:00.920
second biggest law firm and what in
the states or in the country. It

285
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.119
was like a huge firm, right, that's her family's firm. Yeah,

286
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:11.839
ninety plus lawyers in twenty countries and
that's huge twenty cities sorry, multi national.

287
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.599
Yeah, yeah, it's it's a
huge, huge term man. So

288
00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.200
there's there's a lot of power in
there. There's a lot of sway,

289
00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:22.119
there's a lot of relationships. She's
put a lot of people in a like

290
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:26.599
a very bad position to be in. You know, it's like if you're

291
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:33.599
in that firm and it's your child, like assume assuming her father or grandfather,

292
00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:37.559
somebody you know, and her her
direct family, immediate family probably is

293
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connected with that firm. I don't
know, do you know who it is?

294
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You know, like Epa Hunting,
So Epa Hunting the third founded the

295
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:56.559
law firm in the late eighteen hundreds, and then Epa hunt In the fourth

296
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.839
was his son, and then Epa
hunt In the fifth is her father,

297
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:04.480
So it was her great grandfather founded
the firm. Yeah her, Yeah,

298
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:11.039
but Ipa hunt In the fifth he's
still a very prominent lawyer in Virginia.

299
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:15.039
She chose not to get involved in
law. You know, she's done work

300
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:21.960
for child organizations, which is not
surprising, which is sad, but it's

301
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.839
a terrifying right yeah, you know, very very terrifying. Like big brothers,

302
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.440
big sisters, Like she was part
of Big Brothers, Big Sisters.

303
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.759
And there was another one kind of
more local to Virginia that I forget the

304
00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:40.359
name of, but yeah, ready
start or something, But yeah, yeah,

305
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.359
I mean, you know those kind
of like back room discussions they're going

306
00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:48.480
on with a Virginia lawyer who's talking
to the people. I mean, we're

307
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:55.200
talking about three generations of prominent attorneys
in an area that's basically you know,

308
00:23:55.240 --> 00:24:00.599
the suburbs of DC. You know
that he's going to know people, you

309
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.519
know, and obviously the response he's
getting from the government is like, man,

310
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.720
this is this is not the kind
of shit we can help you out

311
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.480
with, you know. But that
being said, you know, you just

312
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:18.279
never know. It's there's such a
political element to the federal court system and

313
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:22.599
to you know, everyone all those
judges are appointed, you know what I

314
00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.240
mean. It's like it's a it's
a very political system, the federal system.

315
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.240
It's it's much different than state.
So, you know, whatever leveraged

316
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.759
relationships can help her, I'm sure
they're going to try to do it,

317
00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:40.079
you know. Ultimately, I think
you know, it'll be along the lines

318
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.440
of, all right, well,
the first thing we got to get her

319
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:47.599
off is that bullshit story that she
wasn't going to abuseless kid. She's going

320
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.039
to have to own that, you
know, and she's going to have to

321
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:53.400
she gonna basically, you know,
because they'll they'll do what's called a proffer

322
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.279
at some point with her to see
if she's got any other information, if

323
00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.400
she can help them in any other
their cases, you know, because this

324
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.519
was a sting. You know,
this is a joint task force that they

325
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:07.480
put together. You know, they're
trying to they're trying to collect as many

326
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:11.000
of these creeps as they can.
You know, when they're doing this,

327
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.799
and like when you're reading through the
texts, you know, from the undercover

328
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:18.079
I mean they're you know, they're
selling it, you know. I mean

329
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.160
you're reading those texts and you're like, Jesus, the guy's like a it

330
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:22.880
seems like a creep himself, you
know what I mean. Like they're they're

331
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:26.640
not giving any indication that they're a
fed Sitting on the other side, you

332
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.160
know, they sound just like you
know, it's like I always think about

333
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:36.440
man like that undercover work, Like
I've seen enough movies or these guys you

334
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.759
know, are so deep undercover that
you know they start to you know,

335
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:45.000
they start to kind of become what
they're pretending to be. It was a

336
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.279
certain extent, you know, and
it's like I always wonder I like this

337
00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.720
kind of like back and forth,
you know, for months at a time

338
00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:57.200
like this, you know, this
this sexual texting and like because these aren't

339
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:02.279
robots, you know what I mean. And I'm certainly not trying to cash

340
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:03.720
shade on a fed saying oh,
well, they're going to turn into a

341
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:08.440
you know, pedophile by doing this, but it's it's a weird. It's

342
00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:11.759
a weird thing to do. Like, like I like any cases I've ever

343
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:19.559
handled were I'm defending somebody who's been
charged with anything related to sexual abuse of

344
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:25.839
children or child pornography. It's like
really hard for me, Like, especially

345
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:27.759
with the child porn stuff. We're
like, you know, I'm having to

346
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:36.680
go through the images that were distributed
online, and you know, because what

347
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:41.640
I'm trying to fear because it's a
defense to those cases where if there was

348
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:47.240
a like an actual belief that the
child was over eighteen, like that's that's

349
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:52.079
an actual, like an affirmative defense
to these cases. So like I've got

350
00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:56.119
to go through these pictures, you
know, and try to say well,

351
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.960
you know that could could definitely be
eighteen, you know, you know whatever

352
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:06.240
her and it's like, man,
it's so so crushing. Yeah, dude,

353
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:08.960
it's the worst. Well, I
mean, just second hand from this,

354
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:14.200
I mean I started feeling residual effects, you know, like you were

355
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:18.119
saying, reading just the text messages
of this. So I can imagine or

356
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:23.000
I can only imagine. Let me
ask you this when I came across her

357
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:30.599
profile on the Incest Forum and she
says, quote, I'm a single mom

358
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:37.680
raising two daughters in a very open
mother daughter relationship. Do you think that

359
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.880
that this could they could get her
on, like I'm worried for her kids

360
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:48.720
honestly at this point. And there's
no yeah, there's no there's no evidence

361
00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:56.240
that Joel Hoppy, who's a federal
judge and her ex husband, there's no

362
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.440
evidence that he had anything to do
with this. But I'm sure people are

363
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.759
going to be looking at him like, you know, did you know were

364
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:07.119
you helping her? Yeah? I
mean I think he's a magistrate, but

365
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.920
he, um, what is by
the way, what is a magistrate a

366
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:15.480
federal magistrate judge? It's it's not
quite like a full blown judge. He's

367
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:19.359
not going to be sitting on major
criminal cases or major civil cases like kind

368
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:26.519
of those magistrates handle more administrative type
hearings typically like federal type stuff. As

369
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:29.880
far as yeah, like he's not
a full blown judge, I mean,

370
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:33.160
it's it's definitely considered in the in
you know, a judge ship, but

371
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:37.880
it's not like would you typically expect
from like a judge that is hearing the

372
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:45.160
major cases. But with respect to
those allegations, man, you know,

373
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:48.920
I mean, I'm assuming that what
they're doing immediately after she's charged with this

374
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:55.400
and after they see that, is
there like on a state level that you

375
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:59.960
go to a child advocacy center and
they interview the kids to find out if

376
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.759
or is abuse going on. So
I'm assuming that that happened or something to

377
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:08.799
that effect. Now, those would
be state charges, they wouldn't be federal.

378
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:15.880
But I guarantee you that whatever county
she's living in, that they're absolutely

379
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:21.319
like because I'm sure whatever they call, you know, the Child and Family

380
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.759
Services in Virginia like here it's DCFS, Department of Children Family Services, it's

381
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:33.119
like whatever their version of that is
there is definitely conducting their own investigation and

382
00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:37.000
then when those results come back.
The state will be all over that like

383
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.000
that. They'll be looking at that
and being like, all right, you

384
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.599
know, both kids made an emission. If they get an emission from DCFS.

385
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:51.319
But then you've got dad who's going
to you know, I mean,

386
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:55.319
like there's a lot of things intertwined
here. You know, he's got a

387
00:29:55.319 --> 00:30:00.119
massive reputation as well, because no
matter what level of judge he is in

388
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:03.279
the federal system, he's still a
federal judge of sorts, you know what

389
00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.799
I'm saying. So he's got a
reputation. This is tarnishing every like you

390
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:11.720
know, it's just guilt by association. Yeah, you know, I mean

391
00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:15.880
that's the thing. Like, like
I highly doubt he had anything to do

392
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:17.720
with it. I mean, of
course I don't know him from right,

393
00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:19.240
right, old and ground, but
I mean, guy, you know,

394
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:23.319
but like you just wouldn't expect your
wife to be doing that. But you

395
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.519
know, I mean maybe you see
glimpses of it, sure, you know

396
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:32.759
what I mean, Like, obviously
he's he was onto this. You know

397
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:37.799
the fact that she she had some
sexual issues, clearly clearly this was something

398
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:42.400
that like he was onto her with
respect to these extra marital affairs. She

399
00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:48.039
was having like he was clearly you
know, he was doing his due diligence

400
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.039
in terms of that, you know. So I mean there were clearly things

401
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.880
going on with her. So I
mean maybe he had you know, might

402
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:59.880
have had suspicions or yeah, but
is he that dad who's working all the

403
00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:03.160
time and if he's not at work, you know, so the girls don't

404
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:07.319
have that kind of relationship with them
or they're afraid to wrap their mother out

405
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:08.759
if she's abusing that, you know. I mean, it's like it's said,

406
00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:15.240
it's always the worst thing about abuse
man, as the kids feel powerless

407
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:17.799
in terms of who do they tell, who can they trust to tell?

408
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:19.240
You know, are they going to
get in trouble? Are they you know,

409
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:23.400
because they always take on that blame
themselves, which you know, It's

410
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:26.720
like I've been teaching my kids since
they could talk. I'm like, if

411
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.119
anyone ever I'm like, the first
thing, and this is what I told

412
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.640
both of my kids when they were
probably younger than they needed to be.

413
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:36.759
But I'm like, I like,
I don't I don't care. I'm preparing

414
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:40.200
my kids for the ugliness of these
smart as I see it. And I'm

415
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:44.599
like, if anybody ever tells you
that we're going to keep a secret,

416
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:49.200
you know immediately that you have to
come and tell me because that person's trying

417
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:52.880
to do something they shouldn't be doing. Like that's it, that's all.

418
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:56.000
That's all. Yeah, that's the
if you hear those words we have to

419
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.680
keep this a secret, you know
that they're trying to do something that they

420
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.160
should be doing, and you come
to me immediately, and then they're dealing

421
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:07.359
with me, you know, so
it's like you know me, but who

422
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:09.960
knows what happens. But yeah,
I would anticipate that there will see if

423
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:15.480
in fact, there was some abuse
that's going on, if the kid's give

424
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:20.119
an outcry, you know, because
this might empower the kids. Yeah,

425
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:23.720
because obviously now dad's got them full
time, and you know, I mean,

426
00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:28.000
and he's certainly going to be asking
them, which is a very awkward

427
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:31.839
conversation for especially a father to have
with his daughters, you know, I

428
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:37.839
mean, that's typically mom's purview.
No, that's the big mystery right now

429
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:43.039
for me too, because none of
this has been reported in any news or

430
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:50.839
even like any true crime sleuth.
Like I think besides for myself and the

431
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:54.599
FEDS and her, I don't think
anybody's found this profile yet, and no

432
00:32:54.599 --> 00:33:01.000
one has heard that phrase that we
have a very open mother daughter relationship.

433
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:06.799
So I don't know if he even
knows. It's not in the complaint at

434
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:10.960
all, which is surprised. Isn't
that a little bit surprising that that isn't

435
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.680
in the complaint? Or no,
I mean it isn't. It isn't because

436
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:20.000
for their purposes, it doesn't move
their case forward, you know what I'm

437
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:22.960
saying, Because it's like that,
That's what I mean, like that missing.

438
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.759
Like the first thing that we were
looking up is like where's the interstate?

439
00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:28.839
It's got to be like an order
for him. You know, you've

440
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:30.319
got mail fraud, wire fraud,
all that kind of stuff. That's how

441
00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:34.319
they always nail people on, you
know, like bankfully, you know,

442
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:40.440
all those different types of fraud.
Now the FEDS would have some obligation like

443
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.799
are you fairly convinced something's in motion? Though, just from my own peace

444
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:51.799
of mind that you know, they've
told the dad that this was on here,

445
00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:55.960
or they have told the state or
somebody is investigating this, yes,

446
00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.079
okay, i'd be I'd be shocked
if they do. I mean, that's

447
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:04.160
what I would say, but yeah, okay, yeah, if the FEDS

448
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:07.400
are aware of a statement like that, yeah, you know, and I

449
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.719
mean, could it just be puffery
from her angle? You know? I

450
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:15.320
mean, yeah, yeah, right, that's what she'll say. But you

451
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:19.719
know, I mean she's doing it, you know what I mean, or

452
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:25.679
she's attempting to do it in real
life. She takes the steps to pack

453
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:31.880
a bag to drive to meet,
engages in over nearly a month of text

454
00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:37.000
messages talking about you know, great
details. I mean, this is clearly

455
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:45.280
something that this woman is either into
actively or has reached the point where she's

456
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:50.440
acting on whatever her you know,
her fantasies are, is twisted and warped

457
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.320
as they are, you know what
I mean. So I would I would

458
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:58.519
be stunned, and frankly, i'd
be furious. Yeah, okay, if

459
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:01.199
you know, I mean, if
I'm you and I kind of dug this

460
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:07.599
thing up, you know, I
maybe I'm shooting dude an email saying hey,

461
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:09.119
you know, I like, I'm
not trying to, you know,

462
00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:14.960
I just want to be completely transparent
here. You know, I happen to

463
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:19.559
be covering your ex wife's case on
my podcast, and I happen to come

464
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:23.039
upon this information I just want to
make sure that you're made aware of it

465
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:27.280
and you can take whatever steps you
deem necessary. But you know, I

466
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.920
like, you know what I'm saying. I meanly, like, if if

467
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:35.440
I'm getting that and I don't and
I hadn't heard from the FEDS the information

468
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:40.000
you've given me, I'd be yeah, fucking furious, man, I'd be

469
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:43.639
what you know, so, I
don't know, man, I mean,

470
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:49.360
it couldn't hurt to be honest with
you. Well, that's uh yeah,

471
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.960
yeah, okay, I mean it's
pro it's a proactive move, dude,

472
00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.559
you know, to be honest with
you. I mean so, like,

473
00:35:55.400 --> 00:36:00.360
I certainly would support the let me
ask you, and I'm gonna I'm gonna

474
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.719
follow up on that with you.
Let me ask you about something else we

475
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:09.559
found on the fetish website, which
is dude, even even like to talking

476
00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:14.320
about this stuff gives me a little
bit of the spooks, knowing how big

477
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:17.119
her connections are. But I'm gonna
go ahead and say it, which is

478
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:23.199
preferred family member. One of the
things she says is I always love the

479
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:29.559
training sessions led by my stepfather,
and I have no idea. I didn't

480
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:32.239
even know she had, you know, it's like I didn't know she had

481
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:37.039
a stepfather. I don't know any
of her family relations, but it's starting

482
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:44.000
to like build this kind of like
network of abuse or it's the beginnings of

483
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:50.480
that that kind of spooks me out. Do you have any feedback on like

484
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:53.800
what to should I just I mean, I don't even know where I would

485
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:57.920
go with that. There's really nowhere
I can think of to go except just

486
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:00.840
I put her in the podcast.
But yeah, I mean, as far

487
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:07.239
as I mean that, that's like
Murdock level type shit, except with like

488
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.559
sexual abuse as opposed to him,
you know what I mean, it's like

489
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:15.920
you're talking about like you know,
because it's like it's got that feeling right,

490
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:20.519
You're talking about like three generations on
you know, her birth side,

491
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.440
you know, her bioside, and
then like they've injected this step parent in

492
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:29.639
like you know, and who knows
where you know. I mean, it's

493
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:35.280
like that's interesting, like we do
we know? So was it her stepfather?

494
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:40.840
Here's the full comment and it's short, but it says preferred family member

495
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:46.559
question mark. That's the thread that
she's putting in, and she says stepbrother

496
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:52.320
and whichever male cousin he shared me
with and I always love the training sessions

497
00:37:52.440 --> 00:38:00.800
led by my stepfather. Jeez.
So yeah, clearly her parents were Yeah,

498
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:06.400
I mean and like they're like in
Illinois, there's no statute of limitations

499
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:09.280
on that, like anymore. There
used to be like if if you know,

500
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:14.000
there used to be like a statute
on that, like you you'd be

501
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:15.920
in the clear if a certain amount
of time. Like I don't know what

502
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:20.400
the statutes are there, but in
terms of like a statute of limitations and

503
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.599
when they could bring the bring a
case, you know, like I might

504
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:27.079
even be dead. She's forty five, you know what I'm staying. I

505
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.960
don't know. Yeah, that that's
like you're gonna have to like decide like

506
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:35.000
how big of a rabbit hole you're
willing to dive into, and like how

507
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:37.719
how like potentially dirty you want to
get your hand to like going in down

508
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.719
that thing. Man, I just
like you said, I just want to

509
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:49.280
stay alive, honestly, right is
how people disappear, that's dude, trust

510
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:51.840
me. I know. It's like
when we were doing Gaycy, it was

511
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:59.000
like Darren and I were basically just
sort of saying that that ROSSI was ga

512
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:04.280
like Gaycy's accomplice. You know that
he was like definitely complicit, you know,

513
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:10.519
and Rossi had been protected because it
came to be known that Rossi's grandfather

514
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:17.480
was this Victor Marsulo who was old
Man Daily, like the you know,

515
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:22.559
powerful Chicago mayor before his son became
mayor. You know, old Man Daily

516
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:27.480
was the Chicago democratic machine, which
back at that time for him, was

517
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.760
the most powerful democratic machine in the
country. Man. I mean, the

518
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:34.920
guy had a ton of power,
like way more than a mayor typically would

519
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:39.800
have. And you know, it
turned out that like Rossi's grandfather was a

520
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:44.880
was a mob guy, you know. So like like even when we were

521
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:51.480
doing like our pod forty years later, like when I was sending clips of

522
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:55.199
some of the tapes to like local
news stations to kind of promote the pod

523
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:59.960
when it was coming out, come
back to like, yeah, our lawyer

524
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.360
so he can't use the Rossy stuff. I'm like what hey, wow,

525
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:06.360
And I'm like what are you talking
about it. He's like, well,

526
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:08.159
like they just won't let us use
it. I'm like what, you know,

527
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:14.679
because I knew back then that it
had become known that that he was

528
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:19.199
connected, like Rossy was connected,
and you know, but I didn't think

529
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.360
it would survive this long, you
know what I mean, because it's like

530
00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:25.440
when I read the books that were
written back in the day, you know,

531
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:30.440
closer to when the case was,
It's like they had used pseudonyms for

532
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:34.039
ROSSI, but they had named Cram
the other guy. There were two of

533
00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:36.679
them, you know, you know, so it was like it was one

534
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:38.039
of those things. So when Darren, I were like, man, you

535
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:42.760
know, and Darren, you know, he he packs heat. You know,

536
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:45.320
he's not playing. You know,
I'm not a gun guy. Darren's

537
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.920
a gun guy. And I'm like, I'm like, hey man, you

538
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:52.480
got that piece of it. I
don't know if it gonna be like rolling

539
00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:53.719
up on us, like if he
catches window it, because it's like,

540
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:58.519
you know, we're assuming that there
the pods are going to become well known,

541
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:00.360
and then you know that he's going
to catch wind of it. And

542
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:04.719
he's still alive. Because I reached
out to him like hey man, you

543
00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:07.280
want to come on. He's like, you got fifty fifty grand. I'm

544
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:09.360
like, well, what to have
you deny shit? I'm like, I'll

545
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:13.599
pay you fifty grand if you're gonna
admit that you're you know, a complicity.

546
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:17.320
Yeah, so it's you know,
like that actually didn't take place,

547
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:20.840
But like Darren and I, that's
how we played it out in our minds,

548
00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:22.760
like we should call ROSSI. We
kept saying it for months and months,

549
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:25.480
like we should call ROSSI, we
could really call ROSSI when we never

550
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:30.320
called ROSSI. So but we did. We did know that the producer of

551
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.960
The Devil and Disguise had tried to
get him and she he told her that

552
00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:37.079
he was going to charge fifty grand
for an interview, and it would have

553
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:42.800
been him just denying shit. So
right, right, Well, I have

554
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.559
to give a plug. Now,
anybody who's listening tapes from the Dark Side

555
00:41:45.639 --> 00:41:52.320
hasn't checked out Bob's pod defense diaries, and I gotta give just the little

556
00:41:52.360 --> 00:42:00.320
spiel, which is Bob is the
son of the defense, the main defense

557
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:06.960
attorney for John Wayne Gacy. And
when Bob turned twenty one, his dad

558
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:14.079
gifted him a box of tapes of
pre trial interviews with the lawyers and gay

559
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:22.000
Cy and they've unearthed all this new
insights and coverage of the case that has

560
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:27.039
never been heard before. So it's
if you like mainstream cases, you'll like

561
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:32.559
it because it's Gaysey. But if
you want something that's not the typical story

562
00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:37.119
you've heard of Gaysey, you'll also
like it. So there's really no excuse

563
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:44.039
not to listen to it. So
I am converted Defense Diaries groupie, and

564
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:47.800
you guys got to check it out. Checkout Defense Diaries and yeah, a

565
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:54.280
lot of similar vibes here. Bob
the EPA hunting junior, So he's technically

566
00:42:54.280 --> 00:43:00.039
the third in line who started the
law firm. He was president of the

567
00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:07.800
Virginia State Bar Association. He was
president of the fredericks Fredericksburg Potomac Railroad.

568
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:13.239
He was in the House of Delegates. You know, it's just crazy how

569
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.920
far a lot of power there.
Man, a lot of power there,

570
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:19.840
and a family of Democrats too,
which you know, I'm sure, I'm

571
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:23.519
sure we're giving all the um oh
what do you call a qan on guys

572
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:30.519
fire for their fuel for their fire. But you know, you can be

573
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:35.000
Republican or Democrat and be a child
molester or a rapist, right. I

574
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:38.039
don't think it follows, uh,
I don't think it follows political lines at

575
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:42.519
all. I I really don't think
that's that's part of the I don't think

576
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:44.920
that's part of the mix. But
maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong.

577
00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:46.559
I don't know. It doesn't seem
like it though, it doesn't seem like,

578
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:52.719
yeah, so far we haven't found
the uh, the DNA that shares

579
00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:59.360
the pedophile in democrat gene or a
Republican and pedophile j Yeah, it seems

580
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:02.480
to go with ways so um.
And you had brought up like an interesting

581
00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:07.840
point about like when I was listening
to your part one in part two about

582
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:13.400
you know, there's kind of always
that that argument that comes up in these

583
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:16.119
types of cases, and you know, I mean it's pretty well known that

584
00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:21.920
you know, typically kids that were
abused grow up to be abusers. And

585
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:27.119
you know, but like you had
made that poignant comment that you know that

586
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:30.679
doesn't that doesn't give you a free
pass to then become a pedophile yourself,

587
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:34.840
right, and which is true.
You know, it's like that that that

588
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:39.000
kind of that mindset that you know, clearly the person's been damaged at some

589
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:45.519
point, you know, but there's
got to be you know, I mean,

590
00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.880
I guess there's maybe the litment like
the limited circumstances where I like,

591
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:55.639
the person doesn't have actual conscious memories
of it, and it's like buried there

592
00:44:55.679 --> 00:45:00.960
in the in the deep recesses of
their subconscious they were abused, you know

593
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:07.440
what I'm saying, Like and they
can't understand why they're having these feelings.

594
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:14.400
But the argument ends there because when
you realize that you're having those feelings,

595
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:21.320
it's at that point that it's in
your power to do something to try to

596
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.599
figure out what's going on with you. You know what I mean? Like

597
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:30.199
that, like for what what whatever
sympathy I have for that person in terms

598
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:37.119
of them being a victim themselves,
and now they've become the perpetrator. You

599
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.639
know, it stops at that line
when they begin having the realization that they

600
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:46.760
themselves have for even if they don't
know why, like they like I don't

601
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:50.559
understand why I'll feel like why do
I feel like this? Like why do

602
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:54.239
I have these urges? You know? But but that knowledge within your own

603
00:45:54.280 --> 00:46:00.199
mind that you're having these thoughts,
because like, it doesn't go zero to

604
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:05.000
pedophile. It's like a it's a
it's a long process, you know,

605
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:07.519
where they dabble in it and the
like they build their way up to it

606
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:13.280
in terms of actually committing the acts. You know what I'm saying, it's

607
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:19.280
like and putting themselves in positions of
power around children, which is very common,

608
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:23.320
like we saw with Eleanor It's yeah, it's and for me it's really

609
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:30.320
not. I'm pretty pragmatic about it. And maybe maybe that's a luxury I

610
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:35.599
have because I don't have kids.
I don't really carry or I try not

611
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:40.880
to carry too much moral judgments because
everybody fucks up. I mean, this

612
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.519
is more than just a mistake.
It's it's one of the most mysterious mistakes

613
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:51.559
or things you could do. But
I just feel like you do that you

614
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:57.559
need to be removed from society for
a long enough time that you know.

615
00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:00.400
I mean, I think there's certain
crimes like this. I think that this

616
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:07.239
qualifies you to be removed from society
for your life. I mean, you

617
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:15.159
know, I mean you're you're it's
attacking the innocent, like the most innocent,

618
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:21.280
you know, like children are just
such you know, it's like you

619
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:27.159
know, your own, like the
the corruption of your mind to do that

620
00:47:27.239 --> 00:47:31.800
to your own Like there's something even
further genetically, not saying that that's proven,

621
00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:36.719
that's all alleged. Yeah, I
think it's a combination of both.

622
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.599
I think it's a nature nurture.
If nurture is even the correct word for

623
00:47:39.679 --> 00:47:43.559
it, you know what I'm saying. I think it's like like when you

624
00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:47.199
get that, you know, where
you come from a family, that there's

625
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:52.079
that kind of abuse going on and
you're a victim to it, you know,

626
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:57.480
I think that that becomes kind of
ingrained in you. And like so

627
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:00.840
I think that there's a genetic aspect
to it, but I also think that

628
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:05.880
it's learned, you know, in
a way too. And especially you know,

629
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:10.559
if you've got like a situation where
they're you know, the abusers making

630
00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:15.000
it seem that it's normalcy, you
know, and it goes on for a

631
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:19.440
long enough period of time, or
the kid believe because kids always want to

632
00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:22.199
believe their parents, you know what
I mean. It's that like talking about

633
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:28.559
a position of authority and trust,
there's no position as to a child that

634
00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:32.000
has more authority and trust than the
parent. You know, forget about preachers

635
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:37.519
and teachers and all that your parent, Like that is the ultimate betrayal,

636
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:40.280
you know, when you do that
to your own child. Man, And

637
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:46.199
that if you put it in their
mind that this is normal, this is

638
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:50.639
the way, like they don't have
any way until they're out in the world

639
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:55.280
and then they have the wherewithal or
the ability or the courage to talk to

640
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.920
like another friend and bring up like
you know what I mean, It's like

641
00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:05.639
that thing where it's like, how
do they find out that that's not normal,

642
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:07.599
that it's not okay? You know
what I mean? If they're being

643
00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:12.199
told by the parent, the person
they trust most in the world, that

644
00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:14.960
this is the way it is,
is how it you know what I mean,

645
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:19.360
It's like such a warped, warped
thing man in it. It's like

646
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:24.199
there's something almost like even more for
me, there's something almost even more insidious

647
00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:31.559
about this case because you read so
much about like the mom who was a

648
00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:37.360
crackhead and like sold her daughter into
prostitution, or you know, left the

649
00:49:37.639 --> 00:49:42.599
meth out and the kids smoked meth, or was being abused by a boyfriend

650
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:45.039
or what. I'm not saying though
all those cases are absolutely horrible, But

651
00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:52.559
this woman seemed like a normal,
normal mother, is well adjusted, She

652
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:54.960
held down a job, you know, they had on the appearances, they

653
00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.679
were both in private school, you
know they were. They had a roof

654
00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:06.079
over the her head food and it
seems like the abuse was such a covert,

655
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:13.599
you know, disgusting, a slippery
kind of way that she And again

656
00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:15.840
I keep saying this all alleged because
I don't want to get sued off the

657
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:21.440
face of the planet. But yeah, it seems like almost worse or a

658
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:25.719
different kind of evil than the complete
where you can grow up and you can

659
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:29.119
just say, well, yeah,
my mother was a monster. You know,

660
00:50:29.239 --> 00:50:34.239
she smoked crack and sold us to
the town pimp. Versus. Yeah,

661
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:37.719
my mother took care of us,
fed us, clothed us, educated

662
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.000
us, loved us. But then
she also raped us. You know,

663
00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:46.000
it's like she Jesus Christ. It's
way worse because there's no there's no excuse,

664
00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:51.079
you know, with the like with
the with the addict, you know,

665
00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:54.079
you can say, okay, well, at least, even though it

666
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:58.840
certainly doesn't justify it in any sense
of the word, at least it gives

667
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:01.840
me an answer as to why potentially, you know what I mean, Whereas

668
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:06.679
with this we don't get that answer, you know what I'm saying, Like

669
00:51:06.679 --> 00:51:09.440
what you're just left with somebody who, for all intents and purposes, seems

670
00:51:09.480 --> 00:51:15.400
like a well adjusted, loving mother, but she's got this like just this

671
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:21.280
vein of evil that's running through her
to where she could do like the most

672
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.199
damage you could do to a kid, you know. I mean, it's

673
00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:28.800
like like that that kind of damage
is forever damage. You know. It's

674
00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:34.920
like it's like I've I've I've made
the argument that it's it's worse than murder

675
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:42.199
because it's like a continuing to trauma
that it lives with them throughout lives.

676
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:44.519
Man. You know, it's like
it never ends. It's like never,

677
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:47.519
you know. I mean obviously they're
you know, the victims aren't thinking about

678
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:52.119
it every second of every day,
but it's always there, you know what

679
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.800
I mean, And like it's going
to be a trigger for them when they're

680
00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:59.360
subjected to, you know, hearing
about it happening to you know what I

681
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:02.320
mean. It's just it's that thing
that's always with them forever, you know.

682
00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:05.519
And like what you were saying,
man, like you know, if

683
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:12.599
you got somebody who's either massively mentally
ill or an addict, you know,

684
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:15.639
like, well, while of course
it doesn't justify the actions, at least

685
00:52:15.639 --> 00:52:20.840
it gives us as human beings like
okay, well, at least at least

686
00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:24.159
there's that that I can kind of
understand what would put them in that place

687
00:52:24.199 --> 00:52:28.880
where they could do that. Whereas
with this that just it doesn't exist,

688
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:35.000
you know, just like there's no
rational for like normal people to understand how

689
00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:37.480
they could do that, you know. So it's like, yeah, it's

690
00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:42.000
a it's a disturbing case, man
is. I'm surprised it didn't get more,

691
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:49.679
specially because of like that's where I
think the influence and the power of

692
00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:53.960
the family came in. I think
that they really like tampered down like the

693
00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:59.079
news cycle on this thing, like
especially locally, like because when you when

694
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:01.639
you gave me the intel and the
data and stuff, you know, I

695
00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:05.559
obviously was googling it seeing what I
could pull up, and I mean there

696
00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:08.519
were a few articles like but I
was running into the same couple that you

697
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:14.320
sent me, Like it just wasn't
a story where there's this big of a

698
00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:19.159
family name involved. You would expect
to hear a lot more about it,

699
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.320
you know what I'm saying. It's
just like it's one of those That's what

700
00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:30.639
that kind of spooked me a little
bit too, was that lack of Well,

701
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:32.039
let me ask you this, because
I want to get your I want

702
00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:37.920
to get your feedback on on the
opposite direction, So you brought up you

703
00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:42.760
know that I made that statement about
if you know if you're abuse, it

704
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:46.079
doesn't give you right to abuse someone. On the I've been debating whether to

705
00:53:46.360 --> 00:53:52.000
leave this inner take it out,
which I guess if you're listening right now,

706
00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:57.280
I probably left it in. I
give that that kind of intro when

707
00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:02.039
I play. I found that clip
of Eleanor's voice when she is on the

708
00:54:02.119 --> 00:54:06.360
Big Brothers and Big Sisters, and
I kind of say, you know,

709
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:14.000
I think it's important that we remember
these people are human beings and like are

710
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:19.360
shared. It's kind of a philosophical
thing. Is there a shared responsibility?

711
00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:22.559
Obviously we're not responsible for the stuff
she did, but we live in the

712
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:30.599
society, we perpetuate this society,
and I think we might not be capable

713
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:34.440
of this specific crime, but I
think we all have that capacity for evil

714
00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:37.639
within us. I was just going
to get your take on how that landed.

715
00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:45.760
If that was too if that seemed
blase or out of place, you

716
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:47.719
can be totally honest with me,
because Okay, yeah, no, I

717
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:52.920
think I think that's absolutely true.
You know, I think that all of

718
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:58.119
us have that that deep inside of
us. I mean, anybody you know,

719
00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:01.159
under the right circumstances or wrong circumstances, whatever the case may be.

720
00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:07.880
You know, can can be driven
to do things that are against our typical

721
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:12.719
nature. You know, I think
that exists in all of us. Man.

722
00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:14.840
It's like I say it all the
time in my pot I man,

723
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:17.960
man like, life is brutal,
like for all of us, Like I

724
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.280
don't give a shit if you have
money, I don't give a shit what

725
00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:25.719
your circumstances. Life is just a
series of body blows one after the other,

726
00:55:27.559 --> 00:55:31.079
you know, and you know with
intermittent bouts of joy. You know,

727
00:55:31.159 --> 00:55:35.960
it's like like the most like the
for for all of us. Man

728
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:40.039
Like, Like I mean, how
many famous people who have money and wealth

729
00:55:40.119 --> 00:55:45.320
and fame do you see committing suicide? Man, It's like it's just you

730
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:47.960
know, like we all have our
demons, all of us. Like there's

731
00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:52.760
no one on the planet anybody that
says that they have they've had an absolutely

732
00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:57.679
perfect life. It's full of shit
because all of us have demon It's like

733
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:00.920
like I don't know what it may
be, you know, but all of

734
00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:05.400
us have have our quirks, all
of us have our into idio secrecies,

735
00:56:05.480 --> 00:56:08.440
all of us have our demons,
and you know, some of us are

736
00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:12.840
able to manage manage them better than
others, you know, And it's one

737
00:56:12.880 --> 00:56:16.320
of those things, but that that
underlying thought of that we're all capable of

738
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:21.559
it, as I think absolutely true, and it's scary, yeah, you

739
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:25.719
know, but it's like it's it's
one of those things where you know,

740
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:30.960
like if you get you know,
like I've kind of wanted I haven't done

741
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:35.800
it, but I've contemplated, like
I wanted to try and do like a

742
00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:39.079
high wasket thing like travel down to
like South America and like do the full

743
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:43.280
blown you know, because I've I've
had friends that have done it, you

744
00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:46.039
know, lawyers and stuff, you
know, like professionals and like of like,

745
00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:50.039
yeah, I wanted to go do
this. And it's typically people that

746
00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:53.280
have experienced trauma, you know,
whether it be like they lost like a

747
00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:58.559
loved one, like a a an
opportune time, or it was something that

748
00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:00.719
shouldn't have happened, and you know
what I mean, whatever the case may

749
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:05.039
be, you know, they've suffered
some kind of trauma and they want to

750
00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:10.679
try to go and have this experience
because it's supposed to be just transcendental.

751
00:57:10.840 --> 00:57:15.360
You know. It's like it's like
it brings you into a different like mind

752
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:20.519
frame. It taps into like the
synaptics that we don't typically tap into on

753
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:22.920
a on a general, you know, everyday basis, and it like you're

754
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:28.800
you're seeing deeper into yourself and it
can be terrifying. Like like I've talked

755
00:57:28.840 --> 00:57:30.719
to so many people that have done
it and they're like, man, it

756
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:34.159
was horrifying, you know, like
I was seeing that, like you know,

757
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:37.960
so it's like those kind of recesses
of our mind which you're just like

758
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:42.039
just we'd never get to, you
know what I mean. And like,

759
00:57:42.679 --> 00:57:47.000
like I'm always fascinated about like the
DMT thing in terms of like the studies

760
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:52.920
have been going on with that obviously, the psilocybin LSD where you're you're like

761
00:57:52.000 --> 00:58:00.000
triggering these synaptic responses that you're typically
not not getting into on an everyday basis,

762
00:58:00.039 --> 00:58:04.679
where you're seeing things differently, you
know, you're viewing things differently,

763
00:58:04.679 --> 00:58:08.239
you're thinking about things differently than you
normally would, and it's like I think

764
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:13.280
there's there's insight there, you know
what I mean. It's like, so

765
00:58:13.440 --> 00:58:15.719
yeah, man, I think I
think what you said is absolutely true.

766
00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:20.119
I think that there's you know,
I mean, we know that we only

767
00:58:20.199 --> 00:58:23.320
use about ten percent of our minds. You know, that's a that's a

768
00:58:23.320 --> 00:58:27.679
lot of dormant brain dude. You
know what I'm saying, that's a lot

769
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:31.239
that we're not using. And I'm
assuming that it's got some value, you

770
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:35.679
know. I mean, I'm assuming
that there there's you know, I mean,

771
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:37.440
we could get it like super weird
into it, like you know,

772
00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:42.800
with like you know, the ability
like you know, do do people actually

773
00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:46.920
do some people have the ability to
you know, communicate with people that are

774
00:58:46.960 --> 00:58:52.599
no longer here, to people have
the ability to be able to stee into

775
00:58:52.639 --> 00:58:53.960
the future. I mean, who
knows, like you know, I mean

776
00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:58.320
it's like I always tend to say, well, it's bullshit, you know,

777
00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:00.480
because it's the easy thing to say. But is it seems like it's

778
00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:05.440
bullshit right because I can't do it
right and you know, it's like anything

779
00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:07.280
that I can't do and like sounds
like bullshit. Man, you know.

780
00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:12.159
So but it's like, who's to
say that that that doesn't exist, you

781
00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:15.599
know, especially when there's just so
much of our our mind that we can't

782
00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:21.320
access. You know that I'm sure, like I said, has value.

783
00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:24.480
You know, there's probably a use
for it, and like you know,

784
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:30.239
in in ten thousand years, if
our species survives that long, I mean,

785
00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:35.719
who knows where we're going to be
in terms of how much of our

786
00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:37.559
brain we're using at that point,
you know. I mean, like we're

787
00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:45.119
in the scope of time, we're
infants, like the human human beings like

788
00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:49.119
you know. I mean, we've
been around for a blink of an eye

789
00:59:49.559 --> 00:59:52.360
in comparison to the planet, you
know. I mean, so it's like,

790
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:55.679
I mean, it's I don't know, Yeah, I think it's,

791
00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:59.760
uh, it's definitely worth keeping in
there because I think there's a lot of

792
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:02.079
true to it. Even if people
don't want to hear it, I'm sure

793
01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:07.599
I'll get a couple angry emails,
but I okay, that's good. Yeah,

794
01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:10.519
I mean, because it's it's not
just it's not just like like pedophilia.

795
01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:16.119
It's like anything like violence. It's
like, I mean, hey,

796
01:00:16.159 --> 01:00:23.000
you're gonna have that reaction to this
episode. People who feel violent urges because

797
01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:28.639
they heard this, that want it
murder somebody or hurt somebody in their life,

798
01:00:28.760 --> 01:00:30.800
or you know what I mean.
It can just trigger totally. So

799
01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:35.440
yeah, absolutely, man, I
mean you're you're definitely gonna have the triggered

800
01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:37.559
warnings and this one you do.
I mean I heard it. It's like,

801
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:42.440
you know, when you need to
because it's like this will like you

802
01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:46.199
know, especially especially victims man,
like when they hear this kind of stuff.

803
01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:51.000
Man, it like I can't even
imagine it because I was fortunate enough

804
01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:53.400
not to have been a victim,
you know. So it's like it doesn't

805
01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:57.679
trigger me in that way, but
it triggers me as a as a father,

806
01:00:58.639 --> 01:01:00.800
you know what I'm saying, Like
it's sus me is to like,

807
01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:07.159
like the thought of that happening to
my kid, you know, by anybody,

808
01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:12.280
you know, lawyer or not.
That guy's gonna like, that person's

809
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:15.519
gonna have a problem, you know. And it's like I like to think

810
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:20.079
that I'll be able to stand back
and let you know, justice take its

811
01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:24.199
course. But like I don't know
what my instinct would be, you know,

812
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:28.320
I tend to think I know what
it would be. Like. I

813
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:32.280
mean, like you know, whoever, if anybody were ever the misfortunate of

814
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:36.239
abusing one of my kids, I
mean, they probably wouldn't want to find

815
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:37.639
out, like you know what I
mean. But like it's one of those

816
01:01:37.639 --> 01:01:43.239
things where you know, like and
I'm a I'm a I'm a peace loving

817
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:46.440
guy, you know, by nature, I'm not a violent person. Like

818
01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:52.519
I don't I never switched to violence. Violence is not my default at all,

819
01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:55.440
you know, Like I'll always try
to, you know, like talk,

820
01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:59.760
talk through things first, because it's, you know, typically the best

821
01:01:59.800 --> 01:02:02.559
way to do it. But man, like when it's like guttural, when

822
01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:07.000
it's like when you're when you're you
know, your your children have been attacked,

823
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:12.400
it becomes you know, then it's
just nature. Yeah, it is

824
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:15.559
each its nature to take it course, man, you know, And it's

825
01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:20.320
like, you know, do do
man made constructs such as laws at that

826
01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:23.719
point do they matter? You know? It's like that, like that is

827
01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:28.639
the only time when you kind of
like can look at something in terms of

828
01:02:28.679 --> 01:02:32.880
like imprisonment as being a true deterrent. Like like I like, I've never

829
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:37.639
felt like the death penalty was a
deterrent to a serial killer. They don't

830
01:02:37.639 --> 01:02:39.119
give a shit. They're not sitting
around thinking about, oh, all right,

831
01:02:39.679 --> 01:02:42.880
if you do this, I'm going
to get the death penalty. That's

832
01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.320
not a thought in their mind,
right, I mean, of course,

833
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:50.239
evasion of being caught is a thought
in their mind. But like the thought

834
01:02:50.280 --> 01:02:52.840
of getting the death penalty, even
get caught, is not deterring them from

835
01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:57.320
doing it, whereas in a situation, a situation like that, like if

836
01:02:57.719 --> 01:03:01.320
I found out somebody was abusing one
of my kids and I was murderous about

837
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:06.480
it, you know that that would
probably be a deterrent, even though they

838
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:10.880
don't have death penalty and Illinois,
but being having my life stripped away from

839
01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:15.360
me, you know, being able
to spend my life with my kids and

840
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:19.440
my wife and my family. You
know, like that that would be a

841
01:03:19.519 --> 01:03:22.039
deterrent to me in that sense.
You know what I'm saying. It's it's

842
01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:27.360
just different because I'm rational, you
know what I'm saying, Like you're an

843
01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:31.199
irrational mindset right now, like logically
thinking about it. Yeah, exactly,

844
01:03:31.239 --> 01:03:37.639
I totally agree with that. Let
me get your take on one more aspect

845
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:43.920
of this story, which is Andrew
Hersey, who was who is this retired

846
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:52.480
artist lives in Virginia. He's the
one who was caught photographing Eleanor Hoppy in

847
01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:59.000
the state park and you know,
it didn't really seem like anything was there,

848
01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:05.679
but then I found this case where
he was accused by multiple people back

849
01:04:05.800 --> 01:04:12.079
in twenty eighteen. I think it
was of you know, engaging in this

850
01:04:12.280 --> 01:04:19.559
very inappropriate sexual harassment during an art
modeling session, and then a history of

851
01:04:19.559 --> 01:04:24.559
this kind of behavior according to the
university. Again, I mean, I

852
01:04:24.559 --> 01:04:28.199
don't know how much you can comment
on this, because you know, we

853
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:31.960
only have the information that we have. But it just seems like another one

854
01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:35.920
of those you know, little tip
of a thread that you begin to pull

855
01:04:36.719 --> 01:04:42.039
and what the fuck is this leading
down to? And how is she relate

856
01:04:42.119 --> 01:04:45.360
back to? I mean, my
first thought is child pornography. You got

857
01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:49.119
this guy who likes to take pictures, you got this woman who likes to

858
01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:55.280
abuse children. I mean, I
don't know, do you have any thoughts

859
01:04:55.360 --> 01:04:59.039
or just anything on that. Yeah, well, I mean my first thought.

860
01:04:59.480 --> 01:05:02.199
And then I say it all the
time because it's true in life,

861
01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:05.239
and I'm old enough to have realized
it. I don't think you realize it

862
01:05:05.320 --> 01:05:12.079
until like you're in your like forties. Is that like always finds like in

863
01:05:12.119 --> 01:05:18.360
this world it's weird, like like
you know, whether it be sinister things

864
01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:24.280
that you're into, whether it be
music, whether it be like whatever,

865
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:30.480
whatever it is that you're into,
you tend to gravitate towards people that enjoy

866
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:36.559
the same things like in this case, we're talking about two people that obviously

867
01:05:36.679 --> 01:05:44.719
have issues, you know, of
the sexual abuse type type vibe. You

868
01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:48.119
know, So it's like they just
tend to like find each other in terms

869
01:05:48.159 --> 01:05:54.079
of whether or not there's because I
mean, like like you said, I

870
01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:58.480
mean we don't know. Like it
sounds like like how they kind of met

871
01:05:58.920 --> 01:06:01.880
was pretty innocuus us, you know, right, it was like it was

872
01:06:01.920 --> 01:06:05.199
another one of these It was like
a chat room or something like that.

873
01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:10.880
Right, we don't know how they
how they met there, there's no information.

874
01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:15.079
We just know they were both arrested
in pocahonas State part together. She

875
01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:21.679
was charged with undressing where prohibited.
He was charged with operating a business without

876
01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:25.920
a commercial license because he was taking
pictures. I guess she paid him to

877
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:29.960
take artistic pictures. That's all we
know. We don't know how they met,

878
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:32.880
what the extent of their relationship was, or anything. Yeah, I

879
01:06:32.920 --> 01:06:38.679
mean there's clearly that thought. You
know, when we get the background of

880
01:06:38.719 --> 01:06:44.639
what she's into, you know that
there's something more nefarious that could certainly be

881
01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:50.480
brewing with that relationship. You know, you've got you've got the guy who's

882
01:06:50.519 --> 01:06:57.199
the photograph guy and you've got the
woman who is the procureur, you know.

883
01:06:57.480 --> 01:06:59.880
I mean yeah, I mean you
could get into a deep, deep

884
01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:03.199
rabbit hole with that thing in terms
of where that could go, you know.

885
01:07:03.280 --> 01:07:08.199
And it's like it's the same like
everything leads back to Gaycy with me,

886
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:10.400
you know, and it was like
the same ship with him. Like

887
01:07:10.760 --> 01:07:16.239
there's like a huge kind of like
section of people in the true crime world

888
01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:18.679
that are like, oh yeah,
he was definitely a part of a like

889
01:07:18.760 --> 01:07:24.199
a larger sex trafficking right even back
in the early seventies, you know that,

890
01:07:25.079 --> 01:07:29.400
like you know, because you have
the John David Norman guy who was

891
01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:33.840
a Chicago guy. There was this
Cram connection with him and this guy who

892
01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:39.719
was like Norman's like Lackey Like Cram
and this guy had a relationship. So

893
01:07:39.800 --> 01:07:44.320
there's like one degree of separation between
Gaycy and this guy. And when this

894
01:07:44.360 --> 01:07:49.480
guy ended up getting busted in his
office, they found like ten cabinets full

895
01:07:49.480 --> 01:07:55.960
of like dossiers of like kids that
this guy was like you know, there

896
01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:59.159
was a whole network. You know, he's still like even when he was

897
01:07:59.199 --> 01:08:02.599
in prison, he had as like
newsletter you know, like the kind of

898
01:08:02.599 --> 01:08:06.199
shit that they used to do back
in the day, like throwing like a

899
01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:11.519
little like you know, like a
little not a want ad per se,

900
01:08:11.559 --> 01:08:15.720
but like just a little blurb in
the back of like these magazines where people

901
01:08:15.760 --> 01:08:19.039
would put in comments like, oh, I'm looking for a person I met

902
01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:26.399
here at a connection yeah whatever,
those you know so like and they would

903
01:08:26.399 --> 01:08:30.520
like put their little things in there, and people in that network knew how

904
01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:32.920
to look for him because this is
obviously pre Internet. You know, it's

905
01:08:32.920 --> 01:08:38.199
like like what exists now with these
chats and these fetish websites and all this

906
01:08:38.439 --> 01:08:42.520
dark nut shit. It's like it's
the same thing, except it's it's easier

907
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:46.039
now, you know, in terms
of it's easier and it's harder because it's

908
01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:51.159
easier to catch, you know,
it's trying to get caught. Definitely.

909
01:08:51.319 --> 01:08:55.840
That's a beautiful thing. Is like, you know, I talked to Justin

910
01:08:55.960 --> 01:08:59.479
Drown. I need to get you
in touch with him. Is awesome with

911
01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:04.159
hosts of Obscura, and he said
he has a view because I always struggle

912
01:09:04.239 --> 01:09:11.680
with the morality of or just my
own personal ethics of I'm constantly trying to

913
01:09:11.760 --> 01:09:15.239
ask myself why I'm covering true crime, why I'm covering a specific story,

914
01:09:16.039 --> 01:09:20.640
what my motives are, how I'm
covering it, And he said, you

915
01:09:20.680 --> 01:09:25.479
know, he said that he just
views true crime in general as such a

916
01:09:25.479 --> 01:09:30.560
good thing for society because it raises
awareness not only for victims, but I

917
01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:35.279
think, you know, especially potential
perpetrators. It's like, you hear a

918
01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:38.960
story like this, You're like,
Okay, I don't want to go in

919
01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:43.199
a fucking chat room and get caught
by FBI, like, you know,

920
01:09:43.399 --> 01:09:45.159
fucking stay away from that, you
know, hopefully, I mean that's the

921
01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:49.439
hope. But I agree with that
completely. I mean, to me,

922
01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:58.239
like true crime is the like the
fascination with it, like nationally or even

923
01:09:58.279 --> 01:10:04.319
internationally, is that it's really the
you know, the human condition like on

924
01:10:04.439 --> 01:10:10.479
trial, you know, I mean, it just shows just how fucking warped

925
01:10:10.520 --> 01:10:13.960
we are like as a species,
man, you know. And it's like

926
01:10:14.000 --> 01:10:17.840
it's it's real, Like it's as
real as as you can get, you

927
01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:21.600
know. And like you said,
man in terms of you know, like

928
01:10:23.760 --> 01:10:29.279
trying to shed light on behalf of
victims if you're doing it ethically, but

929
01:10:29.439 --> 01:10:33.560
also you know, as a cautionary
tale, you know, for people like

930
01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:38.199
you said that are contemplating, like
like I'm reading through this thing, and

931
01:10:38.239 --> 01:10:42.279
I'm like, how the fuck is
this woman like not figuring out this?

932
01:10:42.520 --> 01:10:45.479
Like this is a sting, you
know what I mean. It's like,

933
01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:49.239
like, are you like, like
anybody in this day and age that like

934
01:10:49.640 --> 01:10:55.399
has their head out of their ass
would have to be thinking, all right,

935
01:10:55.560 --> 01:10:58.880
like there's probably a pretty good chance
I'm going down on this. There's

936
01:10:58.920 --> 01:11:03.640
probably a good chance. It's like
like she's taking you know, fifteen twenty

937
01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:10.000
text messages where she's considering that to
be all right. I vetted him like

938
01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:13.600
like I feel secure that this guy's
not a cop, right. I mean,

939
01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:16.760
like you can see that early on
in the chat thing where you know,

940
01:11:16.840 --> 01:11:20.399
and then where he's digging around like
oh yeah, you know, he's

941
01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:26.560
trying to find some some sites that
had you know, fathers abusing their kids,

942
01:11:26.560 --> 01:11:30.279
and you know it seems like they
shut them down or they're they're broken,

943
01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:33.079
the link is broken. And then
you know, so he's he's tempting

944
01:11:33.119 --> 01:11:36.359
her. He's like putting it out
there that all like this is my ship

945
01:11:36.479 --> 01:11:42.199
and I can't find it in order
to draw her to the point where she's

946
01:11:42.239 --> 01:11:45.520
going to to you know, she's
going to distribute what she did to him,

947
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:48.680
you know, so she sends them
the video, you know, and

948
01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:54.439
it's like that kind of thing.
Man, is like like how do you

949
01:11:55.359 --> 01:11:59.600
like just in the like unless you're
just completely oblivious to what's going on in

950
01:11:59.640 --> 01:12:02.840
the war world on a daily basis, Like how are you not suspicious of

951
01:12:02.880 --> 01:12:06.680
it? You know, like it
like like it was funny when you were

952
01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:12.159
talking about like when you like you
were talking about like how like you actually

953
01:12:12.159 --> 01:12:16.520
when you you copied whatever, heard
that sixty eight digit code watching you put

954
01:12:16.520 --> 01:12:19.800
it in and you got on your
like holy shit, dude, like immediately

955
01:12:19.880 --> 01:12:24.920
like you're you're microwaving your fucking computer, you know, because it's like even

956
01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:30.520
like touching it. Yeah, you
know, being on that forum felt fucked

957
01:12:31.039 --> 01:12:36.920
like I had to actually make an
account and yeah, I was like there's

958
01:12:38.039 --> 01:12:42.399
like guilty association shit, dude,
Like like the mere fact that you took

959
01:12:42.439 --> 01:12:45.880
the risk to even put your shit
out there, you know, it is

960
01:12:45.960 --> 01:12:48.159
like like you had to be thinking
like, oh my god, like am

961
01:12:48.159 --> 01:12:53.800
I really going like I'm really deep
diving? Like my hope my listeners appreciate

962
01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:58.199
this because I'm like actually actually like
on the fucking radar now because I went

963
01:12:58.199 --> 01:13:04.600
into this chat like my name or
whatever. I used my fucking podcast email

964
01:13:04.640 --> 01:13:10.159
and I made the count just named
Chasing Tory because I'm like, okay,

965
01:13:10.319 --> 01:13:14.079
maybe they'll get the drift. I
didn't make any post, of course,

966
01:13:14.199 --> 01:13:17.760
but yeah, I was like,
and actually this is kind of crazy,

967
01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:21.640
but I think I figured out who
the FBI agent is on the site.

968
01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:27.640
I think I found his profile because
it's like a I mean, dude,

969
01:13:28.279 --> 01:13:30.039
like you're saying, like, how
did she not clock this guy? Here?

970
01:13:30.119 --> 01:13:33.880
Wait, I'll show you his profile
picture. If I was going to

971
01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:40.720
like make a and you know what, maybe this is part of it is

972
01:13:40.800 --> 01:13:45.359
like do you know those scammers who
you'll get an email that's like broken English,

973
01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:48.720
I'm in Africa and I have ten
million dollars, you know. They

974
01:13:49.199 --> 01:13:54.479
they word it like that. Whether
they started that intentionally or not, it's

975
01:13:54.560 --> 01:14:00.600
brilliant because it self filters out anyone
who had two brain cells, so you're

976
01:14:00.640 --> 01:14:04.640
only going to get the people who
are gonna fall for it to even reply.

977
01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:10.279
So I wonder if if there was
a similar thing with this guy,

978
01:14:11.000 --> 01:14:14.119
because it's like, you look at
his profile, you're like, oh,

979
01:14:14.119 --> 01:14:17.239
this dude's probably FBI. At least
that was that was my first thought.

980
01:14:17.359 --> 01:14:23.000
Let me send you his Oh wait, can I share it? She let

981
01:14:23.039 --> 01:14:27.000
me see share a screen. I
mean, I don't know. Again,

982
01:14:27.039 --> 01:14:32.239
but this is the only guy she
was talking to that had a Virginia address.

983
01:14:33.039 --> 01:14:38.000
You see that guy totally looks like
a fun dude. Right, I'm

984
01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:42.439
like, he didn't even try,
Like what the fuck right he's I mean,

985
01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:49.079
he basically looks like Hank from Breaking
Bad. But I wonder if this

986
01:14:49.159 --> 01:14:54.159
was part of the strategy. Like, but this is a scary thing too.

987
01:14:54.840 --> 01:15:01.439
How many people did did eleanor abuse
to be so brazen about this approach,

988
01:15:01.560 --> 01:15:08.399
like just fucking taking a picture of
like tit her face, sending child

989
01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:15.000
porn to just random people. It's
like this was going like great detail about

990
01:15:15.720 --> 01:15:21.520
like that whole thing about like that
that hazy dreamlike state. Man was like,

991
01:15:21.600 --> 01:15:25.560
this is like a bit she's done
this shit exactly, you know what

992
01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:30.119
I mean, Like that that is
just not something that somebody's kind of like

993
01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:34.279
just materializing in their mind thinking about
it. That's actually they gave me.

994
01:15:34.319 --> 01:15:38.840
Like I'm like, oh man,
this this woman's been doing this with their

995
01:15:38.920 --> 01:15:42.319
kids. Man, Like she's in
there fucking creeping in her kid's rooms when

996
01:15:42.319 --> 01:15:46.079
they're fucking like in the dead to
the world sleeping and you know they're like

997
01:15:46.159 --> 01:15:49.199
out of it and they're not you
know, not really realize. Yeah,

998
01:15:49.239 --> 01:15:55.399
man, dude, it's like yeah, well that yeah, it's it's uh

999
01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:59.279
disturbing. Shit. Man. Oh
this is the website, by the way,

1000
01:15:59.439 --> 01:16:05.079
and again that's the profile pick it
can pretty much you know at adult

1001
01:16:05.199 --> 01:16:10.279
two kids. Wow. And then
that that one last post, it was

1002
01:16:10.319 --> 01:16:15.439
their last ever post on the website
on March tenth, was for us.

1003
01:16:15.439 --> 01:16:18.520
It was really easy to just recognize
nudity. We all sleep naked and when

1004
01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:21.079
we wake up in the morning,
we just don't put our clothes on.

1005
01:16:23.239 --> 01:16:26.960
It's just pretty easy and lets the
rhythm of our day and relationship flow.

1006
01:16:27.680 --> 01:16:32.039
So it's like not full out coming
on to like not a full on confession,

1007
01:16:32.199 --> 01:16:39.960
but is as pretty much so like
when did she get divorced from dude

1008
01:16:41.119 --> 01:16:45.880
twenty night? Actually, let me
pull this up. That's a good question.

1009
01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:50.439
I think it was twenty nineteen,
So I mean, let's assume that

1010
01:16:50.439 --> 01:16:54.880
that's true, that that's like what
goes on at the house. Is that

1011
01:16:55.000 --> 01:16:59.439
like post divorce, right or was
that like you know, because then that

1012
01:16:59.479 --> 01:17:03.039
trigger is like do we need to
look into dude, right because like dudes,

1013
01:17:03.119 --> 01:17:08.920
Like if dude was a part of
the nudist colony with the family nudist

1014
01:17:08.960 --> 01:17:13.159
colony, then it changes it.
But you know, this is what we're

1015
01:17:13.279 --> 01:17:17.520
going on after the divorce, when
the kids are splitting time between the houses.

1016
01:17:17.560 --> 01:17:23.039
But then you know, like when
the girls are at Dad's house and

1017
01:17:23.159 --> 01:17:27.399
Dad's and his pajamas and then they
go back home and like like are the

1018
01:17:27.479 --> 01:17:30.920
girls saying, Daddy, why?
Like why is mommy always naked around?

1019
01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:34.119
You know what I mean. It's
like those conversations you would think that would

1020
01:17:34.119 --> 01:17:39.600
occur. But again, man,
it's like one of those things were so

1021
01:17:39.800 --> 01:17:44.880
hard to know. I think the
divorce records would tell us a lot.

1022
01:17:45.000 --> 01:17:48.039
They're sealed, but I mean,
I don't know if the Daily Mail,

1023
01:17:48.600 --> 01:17:51.880
it's probably impossible to get in contact
with them. But they say they got

1024
01:17:51.920 --> 01:17:59.760
a five page complaints that lists Joels, you know, his list of com

1025
01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:03.720
lance um, you know, and
that's where it talks about bringing somebody into

1026
01:18:03.720 --> 01:18:09.920
the house. And so I would
imagine, but there's no way he alleged

1027
01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:15.840
child abuse and then they gave her
shared custody. So that's why I'm thinking

1028
01:18:15.920 --> 01:18:20.920
he didn't know he didn't know or
else he was like an active participant.

1029
01:18:20.960 --> 01:18:28.640
And then but yeah, there's no
evidence or he knew and he wasn't an

1030
01:18:28.640 --> 01:18:34.359
active participant, and but he was
inactive in terms of stopping it, right,

1031
01:18:34.479 --> 01:18:36.720
you know what I mean. It's
like that which is which is even

1032
01:18:36.920 --> 01:18:41.680
which is just as bad, you
know what I mean, Like like he's

1033
01:18:41.720 --> 01:18:46.520
worried about his reputation, his job
and you know what his what that would

1034
01:18:46.560 --> 01:18:50.560
do to his career, So he
kept it, you know, under wraps.

1035
01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:55.560
You know that's or in the other
well not or but to add on

1036
01:18:55.720 --> 01:19:00.960
to that the whole you know,
because he so hoppy, he's not related

1037
01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:09.199
to her legal dynasty in terms of
blood. So I wonder if Dad comes

1038
01:19:09.239 --> 01:19:14.159
in and starts putting pressure, like
no, you're not gonna like I'll ruin

1039
01:19:14.239 --> 01:19:19.279
you if you if you spread these
sad I wonder if it's even beyond that.

1040
01:19:19.399 --> 01:19:25.439
I wonder if Dad is the one
who got him as shit, you

1041
01:19:25.479 --> 01:19:28.199
know what I'm saying. I mean, it's like like you're coming from like

1042
01:19:28.359 --> 01:19:32.399
that, You've got this like three
generations of power in tons of relationships,

1043
01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:39.399
and you know, his daughter's husband
could use a little bump and like this

1044
01:19:39.439 --> 01:19:41.960
guy makes it happen for him,
you know what I mean, It's like

1045
01:19:42.239 --> 01:19:47.199
there's probably the more likely scenario,
you know, So then like like like

1046
01:19:47.359 --> 01:19:51.439
Dad's got all this leverage on him, and and then like you know,

1047
01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:54.840
it's like we do we touched upon
it, and neither of us will want

1048
01:19:54.880 --> 01:19:57.520
to get sued, so we don't
want to try to speculate too much about

1049
01:19:57.560 --> 01:20:00.159
what was going on with that family. But you know, it's like this

1050
01:20:00.199 --> 01:20:03.119
whole thing, I mean, and
that's where you get into that that kind

1051
01:20:03.159 --> 01:20:06.680
of mindset, like man, how
deep does this shit go? You know?

1052
01:20:06.840 --> 01:20:11.720
Just how nefarious is this? Is
this something that's been generational in that

1053
01:20:11.800 --> 01:20:15.760
family? You know what I mean? Who knows? Where would where would

1054
01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:20.319
you recommend? Because there is one
last angle that I want to research on

1055
01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:27.159
this case on my own, which
is the step father angle, which,

1056
01:20:27.199 --> 01:20:30.399
by the way, if I go
missing you, I'm I'm I'm passing a

1057
01:20:30.520 --> 01:20:35.720
burden on to you to continue this. But where would I go to even

1058
01:20:36.119 --> 01:20:44.279
look up try to find who Eleanor's
stepfather was. I mean, typically if

1059
01:20:44.319 --> 01:20:49.920
you could figure out like you'd have
to do basically like a like a family

1060
01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:54.760
treat type thing to try to figure
out, you know, like I would

1061
01:20:54.800 --> 01:20:57.359
work my way backwards, Like if
I were a PI, I'd say,

1062
01:20:57.359 --> 01:21:00.399
all right, well, I'm gonna
try to figure out when her phone got

1063
01:21:00.399 --> 01:21:03.880
divorced, right what county they got
divorced in, And then that's going to

1064
01:21:03.960 --> 01:21:08.680
give me a pretty good idea.
And like because they like typically, i'd

1065
01:21:08.680 --> 01:21:12.760
pay for a background check and I'd
find out for the last, you know,

1066
01:21:12.800 --> 01:21:15.199
as far back as they can go
in terms of records, you know,

1067
01:21:15.600 --> 01:21:19.920
birth birth records, death records,
you know where they've lived, because

1068
01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:24.479
you like, you if you can
kind of triangulate where they lived, and

1069
01:21:24.560 --> 01:21:30.680
you've got access to a county courthouse
if if the divorce happened there, and

1070
01:21:30.720 --> 01:21:35.560
then if you go to you know, you can simply go to the what

1071
01:21:35.640 --> 01:21:40.640
do they call it? Where you
where you record your marriage license? What

1072
01:21:40.840 --> 01:21:42.880
you have to do, like you
know, no, you have to record

1073
01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:45.199
your marriage license. So I'd start
at that county to see if, by

1074
01:21:45.279 --> 01:21:48.359
chance, wherever wherever she lived,
because then you're going to be able to

1075
01:21:48.359 --> 01:21:53.119
figure out, you know, where
where are this guy's from, Like where

1076
01:21:53.239 --> 01:21:55.920
the where are the step dads from? Like who, like what his whole

1077
01:21:55.960 --> 01:22:00.000
deal is, because that that's the
key to finding it is is kind of

1078
01:22:00.119 --> 01:22:04.720
going back like in trying to geolocate
where where they would have been at the

1079
01:22:04.720 --> 01:22:09.920
time that they were divorced, and
when it sounds like mom got remarried,

1080
01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:13.560
you know what I'm saying, so
it was clearly it was their stepfather or

1081
01:22:13.640 --> 01:22:16.680
mother got remarried, you know,
and that that's how you have to do

1082
01:22:16.680 --> 01:22:20.960
it. It's it's it's all all
accessible pretty much by the internet, you

1083
01:22:20.960 --> 01:22:26.640
know, except for when you got
to go to the recorder's office and try

1084
01:22:26.640 --> 01:22:30.960
to get you know, the marriage
certificate right, you know, to see

1085
01:22:30.960 --> 01:22:33.680
if they were today because he always
has to register your your marriage certificate.

1086
01:22:34.479 --> 01:22:39.439
You know, that'll exist in the
world somewhere in their public records, their

1087
01:22:39.479 --> 01:22:43.960
public records. You don't have to
have any kind of special authority to get

1088
01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:47.119
that stuff. Okay, let me
ask you. I think this would be

1089
01:22:47.159 --> 01:22:54.159
my last question for you. Is
so the upcoming court case against Eleanor.

1090
01:22:55.039 --> 01:22:59.279
June sixth, we had our last
update, so that's been a little while

1091
01:22:59.359 --> 01:23:08.000
now, but they granted a sixty
day delay so that the defense could review

1092
01:23:08.119 --> 01:23:18.920
discovery. That that request was by
an assistant federal public defender. Why would

1093
01:23:19.439 --> 01:23:26.439
like, is there a way before
trial. That public defender then becomes an

1094
01:23:26.520 --> 01:23:31.119
actual legal team. And how was
she even able to be appointed a defender

1095
01:23:31.199 --> 01:23:38.199
if she had the means or like
what's the she must have come? Like

1096
01:23:38.840 --> 01:23:45.399
the only thing I can think is
she was unemployed and that her family cut

1097
01:23:45.399 --> 01:23:48.000
her off, Like that's you know, she has to like to get appointed

1098
01:23:48.039 --> 01:23:50.920
a PD, you have to be
indigent, like you know that, like

1099
01:23:51.000 --> 01:23:54.720
whether it's federal or state. I
mean, you have to be indigent.

1100
01:23:55.039 --> 01:23:58.359
There's got to be you know,
like the threat of being incarcerated for over

1101
01:23:58.399 --> 01:24:01.079
a year, and you have to
be broke. So like the I mean,

1102
01:24:01.119 --> 01:24:04.560
she could hire a private council at
any point, and private council could

1103
01:24:04.600 --> 01:24:09.399
come in and just the defenders off
the case, Like they're not gonna be

1104
01:24:09.640 --> 01:24:12.800
like the defender. They're gonna build
a team, Like you know, the

1105
01:24:13.239 --> 01:24:16.279
federal defender is just going to represent
her or a trial if she doesn't get

1106
01:24:16.319 --> 01:24:19.840
private counsel. So yeah, man, I mean it depends like when when

1107
01:24:19.840 --> 01:24:23.479
when was she arrested? Like what
date was that, Like she was arrested

1108
01:24:23.479 --> 01:24:29.199
in what March marchin it was April, but yeah, right around April March.

1109
01:24:30.199 --> 01:24:32.199
Yes, So I mean look like
any any case, it's going to

1110
01:24:32.319 --> 01:24:38.399
drag on. Federal cases moved much
quicker than state cases a general proposition,

1111
01:24:39.039 --> 01:24:41.479
Um, so it's not going to
take as long as the state case would.

1112
01:24:41.520 --> 01:24:44.399
But yeah, I mean, she
had to claim that she was indigent.

1113
01:24:44.560 --> 01:24:47.880
I mean, she probably was not
self employed. She probably was receiving

1114
01:24:47.960 --> 01:24:51.399
child support, you know, from
the husband. Like, like, I

1115
01:24:51.439 --> 01:24:55.000
mean, was she working at that
point? Did we read anything about that

1116
01:24:55.000 --> 01:24:59.680
she actually had a job. She
you know, she probably she was incenseport.

1117
01:25:00.199 --> 01:25:02.439
Yeah, she claims she was getting
ready to take a job, but

1118
01:25:02.720 --> 01:25:05.560
she hadn't yet. I think,
yeah, see, if we could get

1119
01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:10.520
into those divorce proceedings, I'm sure
that not only did he seek to have

1120
01:25:11.039 --> 01:25:15.479
the kids moved over to him,
but I'm sure he saw it obviously determinate

1121
01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:18.520
child support as well as any kind
of maintenance he was paying. He's like,

1122
01:25:18.520 --> 01:25:24.479
like maintenance for what She's going to
be incarcerated more likely than not,

1123
01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:27.439
you know what I mean. Like
if that was her gravy train and it

1124
01:25:27.640 --> 01:25:31.159
dried up and she's got no doubt, man, then you know, because

1125
01:25:31.239 --> 01:25:36.199
yeah, typically you would think like
that coming from the family that she comes

1126
01:25:36.279 --> 01:25:43.239
from. It's weird. It does
not does not at all man like,

1127
01:25:43.239 --> 01:25:45.520
Like, that's what you're saying,
Daddy, I like, you know,

1128
01:25:45.560 --> 01:25:49.239
I need money because I just did
something super stupid and horrible. You know,

1129
01:25:49.279 --> 01:25:51.840
will you help me with the lawyer? You know what I'm saying Like

1130
01:25:51.920 --> 01:25:57.920
that, The fact that she has
a federal defender is pretty stunning to me.

1131
01:25:57.960 --> 01:26:00.479
Actually, okay, that's what I
was thinking, but I just had

1132
01:26:00.560 --> 01:26:05.760
no I thought I read and I
wish I had saved it. I found

1133
01:26:05.800 --> 01:26:11.880
a way kind of like off the
path website. It was more of like

1134
01:26:11.920 --> 01:26:16.640
a gossip community, you know,
like a next door or like a Facebook

1135
01:26:16.640 --> 01:26:21.720
group almost for a community. It
was called I even saved it. It's

1136
01:26:21.760 --> 01:26:28.279
called DC urban mom dot com.
And they were talking about this case and

1137
01:26:28.439 --> 01:26:31.800
somebody brought that up, the fact
that she had a public defender and they

1138
01:26:31.840 --> 01:26:35.319
said, oh, yeah, like
I think this is what she's doing,

1139
01:26:35.359 --> 01:26:42.560
which is it. I can't remember
exactly, but some kind of delay thing

1140
01:26:42.640 --> 01:26:47.039
with the public defender while her dad
was getting ready his lawyers to swoop in

1141
01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:50.239
or something. And I wish I
brought it, could bring it up.

1142
01:26:50.279 --> 01:26:56.520
But it's like it's four or four
now, But I mean typically like on

1143
01:26:56.680 --> 01:27:00.119
your first court date. Yeah,
like you like, if say you get

1144
01:27:00.199 --> 01:27:04.359
arrested on like a Friday night and
like you're in front of a judge for

1145
01:27:04.399 --> 01:27:11.199
a bond hearing on a Saturday morning, even if you have means you didn't

1146
01:27:11.239 --> 01:27:15.079
have the opportunity to be able to
get an attorney, you know, like

1147
01:27:15.199 --> 01:27:18.239
say if you didn't have family that
was calling and trying to get the service

1148
01:27:18.239 --> 01:27:21.479
as a private council like that night
so that they can appear for the bond

1149
01:27:21.479 --> 01:27:26.840
hearing. They're going to appoint you
a public defender at that time for like

1150
01:27:26.880 --> 01:27:30.520
the purposes of the bond hearing.
You know. But whether or not that

1151
01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:33.399
that council is going to stay on
it's gonna it has to be based on

1152
01:27:33.960 --> 01:27:38.359
the indigency of the like they have
to be broke man like. It just

1153
01:27:38.399 --> 01:27:43.439
can't like they're they're not Like she
had to have like cried poor at some

1154
01:27:43.600 --> 01:27:46.600
point, like depending on how many
court court dates there's been like that,

1155
01:27:47.439 --> 01:27:49.319
you know. I mean there they're
going, like I said, they're going

1156
01:27:49.359 --> 01:27:53.079
to accelerate it because it's the federal
court, but there's still going to be

1157
01:27:53.520 --> 01:27:57.279
continuances because they do have to go
through discovery. They're they're gonna have to

1158
01:27:57.279 --> 01:28:00.199
go through and frankly what's going on
right now is all the back room shit

1159
01:28:00.920 --> 01:28:06.279
with with her attorney and the AUSA
saying look, you know, they're emailing

1160
01:28:06.279 --> 01:28:10.039
each other like this is what we're
looking at with her, this is our

1161
01:28:10.079 --> 01:28:15.880
offer initially, you know, because
ultimately the different thing with again with the

1162
01:28:15.920 --> 01:28:20.840
federal courts is like, typically if
I go into state court and I've I've

1163
01:28:21.319 --> 01:28:28.439
arranged for a plea agreement between the
state and my client, the judges is

1164
01:28:28.880 --> 01:28:31.800
a general rule, will accept whatever
we've come up with in terms of the

1165
01:28:31.800 --> 01:28:36.279
plea agreement, Like the judge has
to. Ultimately it's their decision to either

1166
01:28:38.199 --> 01:28:41.359
concur with it and enter it or
they can say, well, I don't

1167
01:28:41.399 --> 01:28:43.920
agree with this and I'm not going
I want to sentence you on my own.

1168
01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:49.239
So with federal court, even when
they're pleading out, it's it's like

1169
01:28:49.279 --> 01:28:54.000
they're not agreeing to a number that's
going to be left to the judge.

1170
01:28:54.279 --> 01:28:59.800
Like ultimately, now typically will the
judge like like the lawyers are doing all

1171
01:28:59.800 --> 01:29:02.920
the work because I said, like
that federal sentencing guideline is like a massive

1172
01:29:02.960 --> 01:29:08.199
amount of work, and you're reaching
this number, and then the judges are

1173
01:29:08.239 --> 01:29:15.039
going to look at it in terms
of what the government is suggesting and typically

1174
01:29:15.039 --> 01:29:16.159
but at the end of the day, it's going to be up to that

1175
01:29:16.239 --> 01:29:20.199
judge, like the like the federal
government, the Feds. The government's not

1176
01:29:20.239 --> 01:29:25.800
saying, Okay, we're agreeing to
twenty years, you know, like they

1177
01:29:25.840 --> 01:29:30.039
could say, well, we're agreeing
to this this number within the guidelines like

1178
01:29:30.199 --> 01:29:34.079
this range, like and it can
fall anywhere in between there, like,

1179
01:29:34.119 --> 01:29:40.800
so the judge ultimately has to agree
with the sentencing guideline range and then the

1180
01:29:40.880 --> 01:29:43.760
judge is the one that comes up
with the number. So like, you

1181
01:29:43.800 --> 01:29:45.920
know, so it's different than state
court, but you know in terms of

1182
01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:50.439
like, yeah, her having a
like a federal defender, and I forget

1183
01:29:50.479 --> 01:29:56.159
what they call like public defenders,
Like I think honestly the federal defenders.

1184
01:29:56.479 --> 01:30:00.439
Maybe it's a federal pellate defender like
that handle the appeals out of it.

1185
01:30:00.479 --> 01:30:02.439
But like maybe they are just the
federal offender or defenders. I don't know,

1186
01:30:03.279 --> 01:30:06.199
but yeah, that's interesting, man, that could she could she get

1187
01:30:06.279 --> 01:30:15.720
that federal defender and then like her
dad come in and yeah, and and

1188
01:30:15.800 --> 01:30:20.239
that like to to going to whatever
that little community DC urban moms thing,

1189
01:30:20.319 --> 01:30:26.239
Like that's that's what they're saying,
because that can buy you time. Like

1190
01:30:26.680 --> 01:30:30.079
ms language, is the judge off
if the judge is going to allow private

1191
01:30:30.079 --> 01:30:35.279
council to come in, So if
she's keeping the the you know, the

1192
01:30:35.439 --> 01:30:40.079
federal defender on in order to kind
of stretch the thing out, and then

1193
01:30:40.119 --> 01:30:42.840
she's saying, oh, well,
I came up with the money to hire

1194
01:30:42.840 --> 01:30:45.920
a private counsel. The judge is
going to have to give new counsel time

1195
01:30:45.920 --> 01:30:49.199
to get up the speed, you
know what I'm saying, So that that

1196
01:30:49.319 --> 01:30:54.840
does buy her time. But I
mean, what is her is she Is

1197
01:30:54.840 --> 01:31:00.199
she in the mcc or is she
like on home detention or what no h

1198
01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:06.239
no bond was issue. She's in
jail, so too much of a threat

1199
01:31:06.319 --> 01:31:11.319
to the community. So right,
that would be my counter argument as to

1200
01:31:12.159 --> 01:31:15.600
why is she trying to waste time? Right? Like that doesn't make any

1201
01:31:15.600 --> 01:31:18.399
sense to me. It's like that
that's that's if you're out Like when I've

1202
01:31:18.439 --> 01:31:23.680
got clients that are out on bond, I'm trying to drag that shit like

1203
01:31:23.760 --> 01:31:26.800
forever. If it looks like they're
going in, you know what I mean,

1204
01:31:26.920 --> 01:31:29.319
It's like there are in no hurry
to go to prison. It might

1205
01:31:29.359 --> 01:31:32.039
be. I mean, this is
just a guess in the dark, but

1206
01:31:32.239 --> 01:31:39.279
I looked into hunting Andrews and Kurth
and like some of the lawsuits they've they've

1207
01:31:39.279 --> 01:31:42.359
been involved in, like defending.
In fact, it's kind of weird,

1208
01:31:42.439 --> 01:31:48.239
but they've been involved in quite a
few defense cases against schools where kids had

1209
01:31:48.279 --> 01:31:55.479
been sexually abused systematically, and and
a lot of these the way they were

1210
01:31:55.640 --> 01:31:59.720
able to get out of them was
loopholes. And I mean, I take

1211
01:31:59.760 --> 01:32:04.600
your your in defense diaries. No
such thing as a technicality come up,

1212
01:32:05.000 --> 01:32:10.640
but you know, things that maybe
you wouldn't think of, Oh this is

1213
01:32:10.640 --> 01:32:15.319
the angle we're gonna go with to
try to get you know, you know,

1214
01:32:15.439 --> 01:32:17.760
not get prosecuted for this. Do
you think it could be just them

1215
01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:24.720
combing through every single little bit to
try to find some angle, because this

1216
01:32:24.760 --> 01:32:29.600
case seems so airtight. It's like
they're just trying just buying as much time

1217
01:32:29.640 --> 01:32:33.000
to try to find anything they can. Nah, I think that, you

1218
01:32:33.039 --> 01:32:39.279
know, depending on what it is
in terms of because I'm just telling you,

1219
01:32:39.319 --> 01:32:41.640
man, what the Feds when they
come at them with the case,

1220
01:32:42.640 --> 01:32:46.039
you know, they've almost always got
them dead to rights, like like Allison

1221
01:32:46.119 --> 01:32:53.399
has won a couple of federal trials
and it's been like mind blowing, you

1222
01:32:53.479 --> 01:32:57.560
know, Like like one of them
was a crazy case where her client was

1223
01:32:57.600 --> 01:33:03.039
accused of, like the sent he
was a trucker who had for the story

1224
01:33:03.199 --> 01:33:09.880
was that these two girls who were
working at the you know, prostitutes at

1225
01:33:09.880 --> 01:33:13.359
the at the truck stop, you
know, and like that's kind of a

1226
01:33:13.359 --> 01:33:15.319
common thing, like it truck stops, you know, truckers because they're over

1227
01:33:15.359 --> 01:33:19.560
the road, they're lonely whatever,
you know, sometimes prostitutes will work in

1228
01:33:19.600 --> 01:33:23.600
those areas. Sex workers will be
over there and they'll be like, Okay,

1229
01:33:23.920 --> 01:33:26.720
they'll hook up and they'll make money
because they're just going into the cab

1230
01:33:26.800 --> 01:33:29.279
of the truck and you know,
blah blah blah blah. So this guy

1231
01:33:29.359 --> 01:33:34.119
was accused of basically kidnapping them,
binding them both, you know, raping

1232
01:33:34.119 --> 01:33:38.640
them both, and then you know, threatening to kill them, and then

1233
01:33:38.760 --> 01:33:42.760
like they both like lived, and
like Alison took it to trial. She

1234
01:33:42.840 --> 01:33:45.279
ended up winning the case because he
was saying that they were lying, they

1235
01:33:45.279 --> 01:33:48.680
were trying to extort money out of
them, you know, and because there

1236
01:33:48.680 --> 01:33:53.960
were two of them and their stories
were consistent. And then she she won

1237
01:33:54.039 --> 01:33:57.159
another one, and it was a
big case in Chicago. It was a

1238
01:33:57.239 --> 01:34:01.800
seventh seventh Circuit and now it was
in federal court in Chicago at the Dirks.

1239
01:34:01.800 --> 01:34:06.800
And it was an aunt who was
alleged to have given the gun to

1240
01:34:06.920 --> 01:34:12.319
her fifteen year old niece who had
used it on the South side of Chicago,

1241
01:34:12.479 --> 01:34:15.800
like in Englewood, which is,
you know, like the heavy gang

1242
01:34:15.880 --> 01:34:18.319
area, and she used to kill
another fifteen year old girl, like on

1243
01:34:18.359 --> 01:34:23.039
some bullshit, and you know,
so they were trying to get the aunt

1244
01:34:23.079 --> 01:34:26.439
for being the one who gave her
the gun. And so that went to

1245
01:34:26.520 --> 01:34:30.960
trial and like Derek Rose, the
old bull that like paid for the funeral.

1246
01:34:30.039 --> 01:34:33.880
So it was a real high publicity
casing and Allison beat it. And

1247
01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:38.439
like that's the case she got dan
on, Like that's the case, like

1248
01:34:38.479 --> 01:34:42.960
the famous case where Alison was like
the judge went back into chambers, who,

1249
01:34:43.720 --> 01:34:46.479
by the way, the same judge
Trump tried to appoint to the Supreme

1250
01:34:46.520 --> 01:34:51.319
Court, Like her name was being
cost out there, and she just she

1251
01:34:51.399 --> 01:34:56.439
was so pissed that Alison won that
case. That because Alison. The story

1252
01:34:56.560 --> 01:35:03.560
was that Alison had been walking back
to council table after an adverse ruling led

1253
01:35:04.680 --> 01:35:08.520
like, well, the judge ruled
against her on an argument so like in

1254
01:35:08.880 --> 01:35:12.800
Alison said under her breath, which
I know was true. Like Alison said

1255
01:35:12.800 --> 01:35:15.880
that was fucking bullshit, and like
it just sat down and like so the

1256
01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:19.439
judge like there's no way that jury
could have heard it, you know,

1257
01:35:19.479 --> 01:35:24.359
but like in federal courtrooms, it's
all miked up. Like so the judge

1258
01:35:24.479 --> 01:35:28.199
was so furious, like after the
trial that she went back and said that

1259
01:35:28.239 --> 01:35:31.920
she was listening to all the recordings
of like the like the day's events,

1260
01:35:31.960 --> 01:35:35.520
and she said that she she heard
her say it, but she you know,

1261
01:35:35.560 --> 01:35:39.479
and so like when it got published
in the newspapers, it was like,

1262
01:35:39.520 --> 01:35:44.640
oh, you know, defense attorney
yells fucking bullshit and open court when

1263
01:35:44.680 --> 01:35:46.840
it's like her, and like she
got dinged on it, Like she got

1264
01:35:46.880 --> 01:35:50.960
like a three month suspension for like
that. That fu yeah dude, And

1265
01:35:51.039 --> 01:35:56.760
it was like, yeah, so
she won the case and she won that

1266
01:35:56.840 --> 01:36:00.800
case. Had she had she not
won that case, she wouldn't have gotten

1267
01:36:00.880 --> 01:36:05.319
the day like that. If she
would have lost that case, the judge

1268
01:36:05.319 --> 01:36:11.319
would have let it go. Yeah, that's some petty shit. That's some

1269
01:36:11.479 --> 01:36:16.920
petty bullshit. Dude. So yeah, you know, it's a perfect time

1270
01:36:17.039 --> 01:36:23.479
for me to say again to my
listeners. Maybe you haven't heard Bob's podcast

1271
01:36:24.239 --> 01:36:29.239
Defense Diaries. The first season is
the first season just called the Gaysy Tapes.

1272
01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:32.920
Yeah, gay Tapes, and yeah, just start at the very beginning.

1273
01:36:33.279 --> 01:36:38.640
It's incredible. It really is a
production that you would kind of expect

1274
01:36:38.720 --> 01:36:45.920
from like an NPR Presents or something
that's professional, polished research, fact checked

1275
01:36:47.000 --> 01:36:51.039
music, but not overwhelming. Man, I can't wait to have you on

1276
01:36:51.319 --> 01:36:56.560
to the True Crime Pod because I'm
going to break down, like I want

1277
01:36:56.560 --> 01:37:01.239
to hear all about like all these
different aspects of the podcast. But dude,

1278
01:37:01.279 --> 01:37:05.640
yeah, we'll definitely do it.
Um, it'll be like a seven

1279
01:37:05.680 --> 01:37:12.119
hour episode. Just hell yeah,
it'll be the longest fucking episode you've done,

1280
01:37:12.199 --> 01:37:15.319
dude, guaranteed, Like like no
one can do longer episodes than me.

1281
01:37:15.359 --> 01:37:16.880
I could talk forever, you know
this. I like we've been on

1282
01:37:17.000 --> 01:37:23.680
for going on three hours now,
So it does. It does. So

1283
01:37:23.920 --> 01:37:27.359
uh yeah, like my socials like
Twitter, as you know, I'm super

1284
01:37:27.399 --> 01:37:34.359
active, I'm there, I mau
what's primarily at Defense at Defense Underscore Diaries,

1285
01:37:35.079 --> 01:37:39.159
Like I'm such a fucking idiot.
I when I was starting all the

1286
01:37:39.199 --> 01:37:43.960
accounts, I forgot that I created
at Defense Diaries because I let Twitter like

1287
01:37:44.079 --> 01:37:46.560
kind of followed the wayside. So
I was trying to get my older kids.

1288
01:37:46.560 --> 01:37:48.680
I'm like, yo, man,
I need your help with the socials.

1289
01:37:48.720 --> 01:37:53.520
I can't handle like the time constraints
with it. So my son's like,

1290
01:37:53.600 --> 01:37:56.119
he was like, well somebody took
Defense Diaries. I'm like, oh,

1291
01:37:56.159 --> 01:37:59.000
well, fuck it. Like he's
like, I do Defense Underscore Diaries,

1292
01:37:59.279 --> 01:38:03.920
not realize zing that I had created. Yeah, what a fucking idiot.

1293
01:38:03.960 --> 01:38:06.960
Man. I'm like, oh my
god. So yeah, Defense Diaries,

1294
01:38:08.079 --> 01:38:12.199
Defense Underscore. But you know,
at Defense Diaries for Instagram and Facebook,

1295
01:38:12.199 --> 01:38:15.640
and we got a great group which
you're active in, you know,

1296
01:38:15.680 --> 01:38:17.960
which is the Insider It's Through.
Yeah, it's good man. It's it's

1297
01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:23.239
about two thousand strong and they're they're
active, they're you know, they're they're

1298
01:38:23.239 --> 01:38:25.800
into it man. So it's it's
cool. You know, it's cool to

1299
01:38:25.800 --> 01:38:30.279
be able to you know, like
you know it as a creator, like

1300
01:38:30.319 --> 01:38:32.560
when you read like people may not
realize how much of an impact that has

1301
01:38:32.600 --> 01:38:35.399
on us. When people read like
man, I love your shit, Like,

1302
01:38:35.520 --> 01:38:38.880
thank you so much for doing what
you do. Thank you for you

1303
01:38:38.920 --> 01:38:43.000
know, you know, because it's
like we're it reinforces what we're doing and

1304
01:38:43.039 --> 01:38:46.439
it keeps us going like doing what
we do because you know, believe it

1305
01:38:46.479 --> 01:38:49.840
or not, we're not making jack
shit doing this like now, I mean,

1306
01:38:49.840 --> 01:38:53.720
the hope is that we will down
the road, but you know it's

1307
01:38:53.760 --> 01:38:56.000
a it's a it's a hope and
a prayer, you know. And it's

1308
01:38:56.000 --> 01:39:00.760
like we rely on word of mouth
from all of our listeners to spread the

1309
01:39:00.800 --> 01:39:03.840
love, spread the word because that's
when you don't have a giant pile of

1310
01:39:03.880 --> 01:39:08.399
money to go pay for Apple to
put our ship in the top, you

1311
01:39:08.439 --> 01:39:12.039
know, top fifty or whatever,
you know, because like they're there.

1312
01:39:12.079 --> 01:39:15.279
They could tell me whatever they want
to tell me about their algorithm. But

1313
01:39:15.720 --> 01:39:19.760
like when some ship from Audio Chuck
comes out into debuts at number one that's

1314
01:39:19.840 --> 01:39:24.760
bought and paid for because they can't
it can't be based on downloads because they

1315
01:39:24.800 --> 01:39:28.479
don't have any yet, so you
know what I'm saying. So it's like

1316
01:39:28.479 --> 01:39:31.239
we like we've got his indies,
We've got that uphill battle, and we

1317
01:39:31.319 --> 01:39:36.800
rely exclusively on our listeners man in
social media to promote our shit. And

1318
01:39:36.960 --> 01:39:41.079
each other. You know. It's
like, like, I like, I

1319
01:39:41.159 --> 01:39:43.680
love you, man, I'll always
promote your show because I think you have

1320
01:39:43.680 --> 01:39:47.640
a great show, you know.
And as we progress in our careers as

1321
01:39:47.680 --> 01:39:51.239
podcasters, you know, you kind
of you're able to pick and choose what

1322
01:39:51.399 --> 01:39:56.159
pods you want to align yourself with, and you know what you're willing to

1323
01:39:56.640 --> 01:39:59.560
go out there and promote. And
like the ones that I promote and the

1324
01:39:59.800 --> 01:40:03.800
guy in Gals that I love,
I love them because I love their podcast,

1325
01:40:03.880 --> 01:40:08.239
you know what I mean. And
you're most definitely one of those dudes.

1326
01:40:08.279 --> 01:40:11.079
I've always loved your pod. I
loved your pod, Like I don't

1327
01:40:11.119 --> 01:40:13.800
listen to many pods, Like honestly, I don't. I just don't have

1328
01:40:13.880 --> 01:40:16.119
time, like you know how it
is doing our own shit, you know.

1329
01:40:16.199 --> 01:40:19.199
And it's like you like to try
to, you know, but yours.

1330
01:40:19.199 --> 01:40:25.199
When I listened to your first season, man, I was just just

1331
01:40:25.359 --> 01:40:29.359
completely encaptured. Man, Like,
I loved it. I love the way

1332
01:40:29.359 --> 01:40:32.279
you did it. I thought it
was ingenious, and I loved your vibe

1333
01:40:32.399 --> 01:40:35.359
so like I was a fan of
yours right away too, So man,

1334
01:40:35.439 --> 01:40:41.239
it was definitely mutual admiration as far
as you went as far as I was

1335
01:40:41.279 --> 01:40:43.560
concerned, you know, because like
I like, in all honesty, I

1336
01:40:43.640 --> 01:40:47.239
really don't listen to many pods.
Man. I listened to yours. I

1337
01:40:47.359 --> 01:40:53.760
listened to Josh's True Crime bullshit.
I listened to Brett and Alice because I

1338
01:40:53.760 --> 01:40:56.920
love hearing their side of it,
you know, because it's just interesting.

1339
01:40:57.000 --> 01:41:00.119
It's like for me, that's a
peek behind the curtain of who were my

1340
01:41:00.199 --> 01:41:03.279
adversaries for twenty years, you know, like how they fucking work, you

1341
01:41:03.279 --> 01:41:08.439
know. For me, I love
that for a completely different perspective. It's

1342
01:41:08.479 --> 01:41:12.359
like they're not they're not teaching me, like like their listeners love them because

1343
01:41:12.359 --> 01:41:14.520
they you know, they do the
same thing that I do. They teach

1344
01:41:14.560 --> 01:41:18.119
your listeners about the law and how
it operates, which gives people contexts people

1345
01:41:18.119 --> 01:41:21.159
that love true crime. You know. That's one of the good things the

1346
01:41:21.279 --> 01:41:26.159
gifts that I give them is I
help them understand what the fuck they're watching

1347
01:41:26.159 --> 01:41:30.560
and listening to and understanding it,
because it it's more enjoyable if you understand

1348
01:41:30.600 --> 01:41:32.039
it, you know. It just
is so like for me, it's a

1349
01:41:32.039 --> 01:41:34.119
different angle than that. It's like, like I said, I get to

1350
01:41:34.159 --> 01:41:39.640
see behind the curtain of how their
minds operate when they're trying to decide whether

1351
01:41:39.760 --> 01:41:42.479
or not which way to go on
a case and things like that, you

1352
01:41:42.520 --> 01:41:45.399
know, and just how they think. So I love that side of it

1353
01:41:45.399 --> 01:41:47.600
too. But yeah, there's so
like I don't really listen to any of

1354
01:41:47.640 --> 01:41:51.359
the mainstream, like the big media
company stuff. I mean, I've dabbled

1355
01:41:51.439 --> 01:41:56.039
with them, obviously. I listened
to Cereal, you know, and it's

1356
01:41:56.039 --> 01:41:59.640
like I just they're so formulaic,
man, you know, and there's just

1357
01:41:59.720 --> 01:42:02.039
like very little substance. It's just
not my shit, man, And people

1358
01:42:02.119 --> 01:42:06.159
love them. People like a nice
easy listen. I mean, my you

1359
01:42:06.199 --> 01:42:09.760
know, like you both of our
pods, it's like you've got to actually

1360
01:42:09.800 --> 01:42:12.680
pay attention to what the fuck we're
saying or you're gonna miss shit. Like

1361
01:42:12.760 --> 01:42:15.640
we don't have the kind of thing
where you can zone out for eight minutes

1362
01:42:15.640 --> 01:42:18.239
and then kind of tune back in. You've missed a lot of shit,

1363
01:42:18.520 --> 01:42:23.239
you know. It's like you got
to have the pause button ready if you're

1364
01:42:23.279 --> 01:42:27.079
gonna be exactly something else. Yeah, because we don't. We don't have

1365
01:42:27.159 --> 01:42:30.039
filler, man. It's all meat, man. There is no there is

1366
01:42:30.039 --> 01:42:32.279
no bullshit in our pods. So
yeah, so you know, for my

1367
01:42:32.399 --> 01:42:36.319
listeners out there that happen to jump
over here because you hear that I'm on

1368
01:42:36.359 --> 01:42:42.920
this on equivocally listen to tapes because
it's fucking great. Tapes with a d

1369
01:42:42.880 --> 01:42:45.880
Our Side is one of my favorite
pods out there. And I guarantee you.

1370
01:42:46.239 --> 01:42:48.880
I said it when you post it
in my group, and I meant

1371
01:42:48.880 --> 01:42:53.680
it like you'll thank me later.
It's just it's a great pod. You

1372
01:42:53.760 --> 01:42:57.159
take, you do your you do
your fucking work. Man. You come

1373
01:42:57.159 --> 01:43:00.279
in with the knowledge you're not coming
in half ass. You're not just watching

1374
01:43:00.319 --> 01:43:02.960
a date, lying and duking up
some bullshit. You know. You dig

1375
01:43:03.000 --> 01:43:06.920
into shit, which I respect and
I love that. So thanks man,

1376
01:43:09.199 --> 01:43:13.119
right back at you. And of
course I'm hoping that even though you like

1377
01:43:13.199 --> 01:43:16.960
my podcast, you like my memes
just as much. I love your memes.

1378
01:43:17.039 --> 01:43:19.800
You know you know how much I
love your memes. Man. I

1379
01:43:19.960 --> 01:43:25.479
love you're bringing. I'm bringing a
new energy to the meme the Defense Diary

1380
01:43:25.520 --> 01:43:29.439
Meme game, which if you're not
come and check out, like Bob was

1381
01:43:29.439 --> 01:43:32.520
saying, the Defense Diaries Insiders group. I think if you just search Defense

1382
01:43:32.560 --> 01:43:38.960
Diaries Insiders on Facebook, it should
come up. And thank you so much,

1383
01:43:39.000 --> 01:43:43.239
Bob, my pleasure. Always love
you too, man. Anytime you

1384
01:43:43.319 --> 01:43:45.760
hit me up, you know I'm
always I'm always ready to hang with you.

1385
01:44:00.119 --> 01:44:02.800
And now, for our Patreon members, here's a little peek behind the

1386
01:44:02.880 --> 01:44:10.119
scenes of my conversation with Bob before
we started officially recording this episode, and

1387
01:44:10.199 --> 01:44:15.640
then the after after show which comes
after them