S8, AFTERSHOW: tori4fun w/ Bob Motta

0:00 Today. My guest on the after show is Bob Mada from the podcast Defense Diaries. He is a former defense attorney and he's going to help us break down the legal case against Eleanor Hunton Hoppy. We also review some information from this case that we haven't yet covered, And just to let you all know, I'm keeping an eye on the updates about this trial and if anything else comes out, then I'll be adding more episodes this season. My conversation with Bob lasted over an hour and a half, which will probably be more than enough to keep you interested and entertained. But just as what happened with the last time I talked with Bob, we got into a discussion of plenty of other stuff, including psychedelics, some of the cases he's covering next, and what happened with the case of Lucy Study, which is a particularly interesting story.

0:58 The pre and post co versation that I had with Bob he's allowed me to include in the Patreon version of this episode. It's about forty five minutes extra, and I've tagged it onto the end of this podcast for our Patreon and Apple Plus subscribers, So stick around if you're hearing this on our Premium version, and after the credits music plays out, I'll put the bonus conversation in there for you. Thank you to everyone who supports us on Patreon. Independent podcasts like this one really only exists truly because of you guys and your generosity. If you want to support the show, go to patreon dot com.

1:38 Slash Tapes from the dark Side side descriptions of violence than sexuality. Listener discretion is advice. Yeah, yeah, welcome to the Tapes from the Dark Side After show Today, I have with me Bob Matta once again from the fabulous podcast Defense Diaries. It's now in its second season with also an offshoot side show called The Docket. Thank you so much for being with us today, Bob. My pleasure t Z. You know I love hanging with you man. Yeah, our second meeting. Here we go. Let's see how far into Aliens, how fast we can get into Aliens and chat Gypt without talking to me. This case is nasty, dude, so it's like, you know, and it's all that tech shit, so you never know.

2:58 Well, no, that's a good leadway because I just kind of wanted to get your initial thoughts about this case. We're talking about the Tory for fun two episodes and it's the case of Eleanor Hunting Hoppy, And I was going to get your initial thoughts and also if you've ever worked a case like this or anything of that sort. Yeah, So I had not heard of the case until you hit me up and you had sent me both your rough cuts for part one and part two. I listened to those. I also read the articles, so I kind of familiarized myself with the case. I additionally also like started doing a little research to see if I could dig up anymore shit, which you know, I found some stuff. I'm sure you'd seen it as well, like the kind of the most interesting thing that I found was the actual complaint that the Feds filed, which kind of lays out, you know, how they got her, and like the graphic details in which some of these text messages were being exchanged between the undercover and her. You know. But my first thought, you know, when when I kind of like dug into what what you were putting down, man, I'm like, wow, you know, this is unusual because it's usually men that are fucking creeps like that, you know, not not women. So that that took me aback, like that that kind of level of abuse coming from a woman, from a mother really kind of shocked me. It's not to say that that you know, obviously that doesn't exist in the world that you know.

4:30 I guess mothers will abuse their their children and in a sexual way, but I don't think it's nearly as prevalent as men doing it. So yeah, that that was, you know, And that was just like before I read anything, you know what I'm saying. So like, when I start like reading the text messages, the message is going back and forth between these two man, it it like it rocked me a little bit. I was like, wow, man, this this woman is nasty. You know. It was like, man, it's it like it kind of hit me in a way that like I hadn't I've never tried a case where I've had a client that was a woman doing that. I've had cases, unfortunately, where it was men doing that. You know. That's what I'm saying, Like I've like the frequency is infrequent in terms of it being a woman perpetrator and these types of things. I mean just generally speaking, like you know, if I'm in court, I rarely ever, if I'm just sitting there in a full courtroom waiting for my cases to get called, and you know, the judges running through the docket, and you know, they'll always step up and depending on what's you know, being heard that particular morning, if it's an arrangement, I want to hear what people are charged with, you know, and there's full courtroom, so I'm usually hearing a lot of what is going down, man. And I can honestly say in my twenty years that I don't know I've ever heard a woman in my county or the counties that I

6:00 practiced and getting charged with these things. Now, these are federal obviously, and like kind of delineation right from the forefront in terms of why it's federal is because it involved interstate travel. You know, she was she was leaving Virginia and heading to where were they going to meet in DC? Well, originally that that was actually a question I had for you, because they were going to meet him Warrington, Virginia, so I don't think it was interstate. So I was also wondering, why is it just because the FEDS picked her up? Or is it because it was internet communication? Or Yeah, I mean there's that aspect of it, but the the other aspects there had to a bit hold on. I'm looking through the complaint here because I want to see, yeah, because she lived outside of Charlottesboro or sorry, Charlottesville, and then they were going to meet him Warrington, which is not false from DC and the complaint that says. On March twenty twenty three, while discussing the sexual abuse that she intended to perpetrate against the UC's daughter, it is it hopie or a hop or hope hope our sorry hoppy hoppy hoppy okay, wrote the following quote, A great think. It's a type of obviously to do is to wake her up by trying new things in that hazy slash backslash dream like state is perfect intro date. Yeah, introduce a variety of new things, especially with someone to help with the positioning her body. And

7:32 then when you fall, let her fall right back to sleep and then the next payer episodes. A few days later, on March twelve, twenty twenty three, while discussing the plan to travel to DC, so that that's it, that's where they get there, that's where you know, it's like wherever they ultimately pulled her to come, like her impression because it was going to travel to DC to sexually abuse the UC's purported eight year old daughter, because that was the original meeting place, So that must have been that's why because DC is technically a federalist right though it says because it does say that. During the afternoon hours of March sixteen, twenty twenty three, after some additional chat exchanges, Hopie or Hoppy and the UC agreed that she would travel from her home in Charlottesville, VA to a hotel located in Warranton, VA.

8:22 At the time, she believed that the UC would be bringing his proport That's where it is. That that's our answer. So she believed that he would bring be bringing his purported eight year old daughter from Washington, d C to the hotels, so that a Hopie or how do you say it, hoppy hoppy hoppy Okay, and the UC could sexually abuse a little girl together. So that there's our answer. So the answer is that it was like there was still interstate travel involved, you know, the the UC, the undercover was just bringing the child to her so intense still there location. That's because even though DC's in Virginia, it's technically a separate what would you call it your stiction or territory or yeah, it's a yeah, it's a commonwealth.

9:07 It's right, commonwealth or is it a commonwealth? I think it's. I think it's a commonwealth. So yeah, it's it's technically like not a not a state. I got you, Okay, okay, you know what I'm saying. Like, so it's its own though. As a as a side note about the pronunciation, I actually went through in the entire first episode, I called her is because an article something I found miss name to her middle name. They said Eleanor Hunter, and I said Hope because I just assumed, which is a horrible idea. I assumed it was Hope. So the entire episode I recorded and I called, I said Eleanor Hunter, Hope, and I had to go back and rerecord every time I said her name.

9:54 So don't feel bad about it. Yeah, Well, dude, I like I grew up with a like a kid name, Glenn Hoppy, so like that's how I would have pronounced it, like he was like. There would be others and the Happy Brothers, and my dad called them the Destructive Twins. They were two like red haired, like red haired kids like gingers that were like super destructive. So that was funny. I mean, they were my best friends, but yeah, they were, so that that's why. So yeah, that's pronounced the same way they pronounced their name. So yeah, so that answers that question. So, so it's the District of Columbia and commonly called DC. I want him to see if it's considered if that is what it's called a commonwealth because it's not a state, right, it is the district it is it is. It's the District Columbia. They used to formally call it that, but all right, well whatever, but whatever the case may be, for the purposes of federal statutes, it qualifies as crossing state lines or interstate ravel. Well, this is a good This leads into a question I had for you, which is the sentencing. So she's facing up to life in prison, which, right off the bat, I'm not saying I'm against that because I think, you know, considering the evidence and the crime she was trying to commit. But my question is how it

11:24 seems like, Okay, I read cases of like child abuse and it's like one year, six months, just these very pedestrian sentences. So for somebody who didn't even commit a crime, or did commit a crime but didn't actually abuse someone that they can prove of. Yet, how could it be? How could it be life in prison? Well, I mean it, so, federal sentencing is vastly different. So I'm going to read you one of the So I pulled up the federal statutes that she's been charged with. I don't want to read you a couple of them. So the first one is section twenty four twenty two, and that's the coercion and enticement. There's an A and a bee there. B is the one that applies to her, and it's it reads as follows, whoever, using the mail or facility, or means of interstate or foreign commerce, or within the specified maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States, knowingly persuades, induces, entices, or courses any individual who has not attained the age of eighteen to engage in prostitution or any sexual activity for which any person could be charged with a criminal offense, or attempts to do so. Okay, that's like, that's where we're getting her with all of the attempt. The attempt and the eyes of the federal statutes respect to these particular offenses is the same as doing it okay, And so the penalty is she shall be fined under this title and imprisoned for not

12:54 less than ten or for life. So there's a mass of like a massive gap there. So essentially what we'll go on depending on how this thing shakes down. If she goes to trial and she's found guilty, then then the sensing will happen. If she takes a plea. The way sentencing works in federal with the Federal guidelines is vastly completely different than the state. So, I mean, it's an entire like if you were if I were to send you the like the Federal sentencing guidelines, it's it's probably about a seven hundred page book. So yeah, and it basically it's a point system where they you know, you you gain points, you lose points based on various things.

13:41 Typically, when you're negotiating with an a USA, which is an Assistant US attorney, you know you're trying to knock off a point or two because those points are would give you the range, the sentencing range. So you know, considering that she probably has no priors other than the one, you know, the little weird thing that she got worse, she's out nude getting photographed at the end. She's a she's a strange bird. I mean, she doesn't she doesn't have anything like this right right, you know, and she didn't have anything substantial. She definitely had that one charge, you know, which you know, it wasn't a felony, but they'll they'll see it and it was sexual in nature. So it's not going to be helpful, you know, for her at all in terms of, you know, when they're trying to negotiate, if she's going to plead, you know, because when the Feds come after you man, they don't lose. They rarely, rarely lose. They're you know, they're typically their conviction rate is in the ninety eight nine conviction like you just, they don't lose. They take they take a long time to bring things to court. You know, they take a long time to charge people, like they'll sit on things and just build their case. It's it's vastly different again, not only in sensing, but how they build their case in terms of the amount of time that they take to to build their case so that they know that they're coming in with a bulletproof case. Do you think that the Feds could bring up her divorce, like her marriage and the divorce records in the case. Yeah, I mean

15:13 in terms of I mean, are you talking about the fact that her husband like after the charges were her Well, let me let me read this to you because I I just found out this information on the Daily Mail. Actually, I think I had come across it very early, and then this article got buried in my bookmarks. I just found it again and it's the only place I've found this information. So let me just read this to you real fast. It says in his five page complaint, obtained by dailymail dot Com. This is Joel Hope or Joel Hoppies, you know, part of their divorce records quote honor. About August seven, twenty nineteen, defendant initiated sexual conduct and committed adultery by having oral sex with a male partner not her spouse.

16:03 On August twenty second, defendant has sexual intercourse with a mail in the city of Charlottesville, Virginia. Subsequent to those two sexual encounters, defendant has on frequent occasions attempted to engage other men and women for sexual encounters and then, adding upon reasonable belief, defendant has brought a sexual partner into the marital residence while minor children were present. The AfOR said behavior exposes the minor children to risk of emotional harm. So I mean, it'll be like I would assume that the government would argue that it's four four B, you know, it's prior bad acts that they want to try to get it in just to show her sexual proclivities. Obviously, the defense will argue that it's not relevant to this case, you know, because the one thing you can't do with that FOURL four B stuff is it can't be character assassination, you know.

16:57 I mean, ultimately the reality of how it plays out is that's the way that it it actually plays out. But like you know, by the letter of the law, it can't be your intent. You can't be using it to show that you know, this person is a bad character. So I mean, I'm certain that the Feds will try to get it in, whether or not that the judge will allow. They'll they'll have they'll have hearings on it, you know, because it's it is, it's relevant in a sense, you know, and it's also not relevant. Like I mean, I could certainly craft an argument as to why it's not relevant as to what we're talking about with these charges. I mean, we're talking about adults. They're you know that like adultery old school was it was a crime, It's not so much anymore. I mean, I think it's still on the books in some states, but you know, and in some states like Illinois, adultery is not a factor in terms of the divorce itself when they're trying to delineate how to split up the marital assets, like in New York State, if I if I'm correct, I believe that it is here. It doesn't matter, you know, because when I would occasionally do a divorce case and I had a client who's like, oh, my wife cheated on me, so I have the divorce her. But he was the breadwinner, and he's a wait, like, but she cheated on me, and now I have to pay her maintenance because I don't want to be married to her anymore. You Like, that was a very difficult, difficult pill for me to get my

18:33 client at to swallow man in which understandably, you know, I like, I like that that's kind of a hiccup in the law there, because it's like, that's a tough thing, that's that's a kind of situation where where people get crazy. You know what I mean that that kind of situation is where people do crazy shit. You know, So let me let me ask you just off maybe your instinct, if you just had to make a guess first you think the case will go to trial, and if you do, how much time? What would just be your shot in the dark around what kind of sentence she actually would receive. It depends on what what she ends up pleading out to. Like, I think they've got her on the distribution of child pornography, Like, I mean that that they got her nailed pretty good. They're going to be able to show that it was her phone, that it was her account, that it was her doing the messaging, you know, because when they ended up picking her up, when they arrest her, they grab her phone, you know, and there, there he's actually able to see because at some point they switched from using what'sapp or signal or whatever they were using whatever encrypted app they were using, to like just texting.

19:47 From the forensic tech side of it, there, they've got it that it's her and that it was her using phone. Because typically, you know, you're only going to be able to make the argument that it wasn't me. You know, like, if you have the situation where somebody's distributing child porn, it's typically, well, it could have been anybody in my house, somebody else, you know, people have access to it, like you know, trying to throw the other people now so under the boss. But you're creating, you're trying to create like reasonable doubt that it did. You know, it could have been multiple people. It wasn't necessarily me. You know, So with this, with it being her phone, and they had her showing her bare breast and her face exactly with her with her thumb in the picture and you can see the bottom of her Yeah, she's done on that. The more interesting arguments are going to be the two other charges because her like and she clearly was thinking about this ahead of time, you know, in terms of like, well what happens if this is like a reverse sting, Because she immediately waived her Miranda rights and went in and gave a statement, and in that statement she says, I I wasn't coming here to abuse that child. It was coming here to save that child from her father, right, and then you know, so she she makes that statement, she's like, I wasn't like that's not what I was I was doing the opposite of what you think I was coming here to do. And then you know, when they search your vehicle, then they of course find the bag with the you know, the little pink robe she was talking about that she was bringing the big girl robe and then like some kind of a mother should pink backpack. Yeah, yeah, so that that kind of stuff. You

21:21 know, it doesn't bode well for her. So if I had to guess, and it's tough, I mean, she's going to get If I had to guess, i'd I'd say somewhere between seventeen and twenty years. Like, I don't think she'll get life, even though she maybe she might deserve it well being forty five, you know, right, she'll be sixty five. You know that's that's close to your life. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, and kind of like you brought it up towards the end of the second part that her family happens to run this you know what the second biggest law firm and what in the states or in the country. It was like a huge firm, right, that's her family's firm. Yeah, ninety plus lawyers in twenty countries and that's huge twenty cities sorry, multi national.

22:11 Yeah, yeah, it's it's a huge, huge term man. So there's there's a lot of power in there. There's a lot of sway, there's a lot of relationships. She's put a lot of people in a like a very bad position to be in. You know, it's like if you're in that firm and it's your child, like assume assuming her father or grandfather, somebody you know, and her her direct family, immediate family probably is connected with that firm. I don't know, do you know who it is? You know, like Epa Hunting, So Epa Hunting the third founded the law firm in the late eighteen hundreds, and then Epa hunt In the fourth was his son, and then Epa hunt In the fifth is her father, So it was her great grandfather founded the firm. Yeah her, Yeah, but Ipa hunt In the fifth he's still a very prominent lawyer in Virginia.

23:11 She chose not to get involved in law. You know, she's done work for child organizations, which is not surprising, which is sad, but it's a terrifying right yeah, you know, very very terrifying. Like big brothers, big sisters, Like she was part of Big Brothers, Big Sisters. And there was another one kind of more local to Virginia that I forget the name of, but yeah, ready start or something, But yeah, yeah, I mean, you know those kind of like back room discussions they're going on with a Virginia lawyer who's talking to the people. I mean, we're talking about three generations of prominent attorneys in an area that's basically you know, the suburbs of DC. You know that he's going to know people, you know, and obviously the response he's getting from the government is like, man, this is this is not the kind of shit we can help you out with, you know. But that being said, you know, you just never know. It's there's such a political element to the federal court system and to you know, everyone all those judges are appointed, you know what I mean. It's like it's a it's a very political system, the federal system.

24:26 It's it's much different than state. So, you know, whatever leveraged relationships can help her, I'm sure they're going to try to do it, you know. Ultimately, I think you know, it'll be along the lines of, all right, well, the first thing we got to get her off is that bullshit story that she wasn't going to abuseless kid. She's going to have to own that, you know, and she's going to have to she gonna basically, you know, because they'll they'll do what's called a proffer at some point with her to see if she's got any other information, if she can help them in any other their cases, you know, because this was a sting. You know, this is a joint task force that they put together. You know, they're trying to they're trying to collect as many of these creeps as they can. You know, when they're doing this, and like when you're reading through the texts, you know, from the undercover I mean they're you know, they're selling it, you know. I mean you're reading those texts and you're like, Jesus, the guy's like a it seems like a creep himself, you know what I mean. Like they're they're not giving any indication that they're a fed Sitting on the other side, you know, they sound just like you know, it's like I always think about man like that undercover work, Like I've seen enough movies or these guys you know, are so deep undercover that you know they start to you know, they start to kind of become what they're pretending to be. It was a certain extent, you know, and it's like I always wonder I like this kind of like back and forth, you know, for months at a time like this, you know, this this sexual texting and like because these aren't

25:57 robots, you know what I mean. And I'm certainly not trying to cash shade on a fed saying oh, well, they're going to turn into a you know, pedophile by doing this, but it's it's a weird. It's a weird thing to do. Like, like I like any cases I've ever handled were I'm defending somebody who's been charged with anything related to sexual abuse of children or child pornography. It's like really hard for me, Like, especially with the child porn stuff. We're like, you know, I'm having to go through the images that were distributed online, and you know, because what I'm trying to fear because it's a defense to those cases where if there was a like an actual belief that the child was over eighteen, like that's that's an actual, like an affirmative defense to these cases. So like I've got to go through these pictures, you know, and try to say well, you know that could could definitely be eighteen, you know, you know whatever her and it's like, man, it's so so crushing. Yeah, dude, it's the worst. Well, I mean, just second hand from this, I mean I started feeling residual effects, you know, like you were saying, reading just the text messages of this. So I can imagine or I can only imagine. Let me ask you this when I came across her profile on the Incest Forum and she says, quote, I'm a single mom

27:30 raising two daughters in a very open mother daughter relationship. Do you think that that this could they could get her on, like I'm worried for her kids honestly at this point. And there's no yeah, there's no there's no evidence that Joel Hoppy, who's a federal judge and her ex husband, there's no evidence that he had anything to do with this. But I'm sure people are going to be looking at him like, you know, did you know were you helping her? Yeah? I mean I think he's a magistrate, but he, um, what is by the way, what is a magistrate a federal magistrate judge? It's it's not quite like a full blown judge. He's not going to be sitting on major criminal cases or major civil cases like kind of those magistrates handle more administrative type hearings typically like federal type stuff. As far as yeah, like he's not a full blown judge, I mean, it's it's definitely considered in the in you know, a judge ship, but it's not like would you typically expect from like a judge that is hearing the major cases. But with respect to those allegations, man, you know, I mean, I'm assuming that what they're doing immediately after she's charged with this and after they see that, is there like on a state level that you go to a child advocacy center and they interview the kids to find out if or is abuse going on. So I'm assuming that that happened or something to

29:03 that effect. Now, those would be state charges, they wouldn't be federal. But I guarantee you that whatever county she's living in, that they're absolutely like because I'm sure whatever they call, you know, the Child and Family Services in Virginia like here it's DCFS, Department of Children Family Services, it's like whatever their version of that is there is definitely conducting their own investigation and then when those results come back. The state will be all over that like that. They'll be looking at that and being like, all right, you know, both kids made an emission. If they get an emission from DCFS.

29:45 But then you've got dad who's going to you know, I mean, like there's a lot of things intertwined here. You know, he's got a massive reputation as well, because no matter what level of judge he is in the federal system, he's still a federal judge of sorts, you know what I'm saying. So he's got a reputation. This is tarnishing every like you know, it's just guilt by association. Yeah, you know, I mean that's the thing. Like, like I highly doubt he had anything to do with it. I mean, of course I don't know him from right, right, old and ground, but I mean, guy, you know, but like you just wouldn't expect your wife to be doing that. But you know, I mean maybe you see glimpses of it, sure, you know what I mean, Like, obviously he's he was onto this. You know the fact that she she had some sexual issues, clearly clearly this was something that like he was onto her with respect to these extra marital affairs. She was having like he was clearly you know, he was doing his due diligence in terms of that, you know. So I mean there were clearly things going on with her. So I mean maybe he had you know, might have had suspicions or yeah, but is he that dad who's working all the time and if he's not at work, you know, so the girls don't have that kind of relationship with them or they're afraid to wrap their mother out if she's abusing that, you know. I mean, it's like it's said, it's always the worst thing about abuse man, as the kids feel powerless in terms of who do they tell, who can they trust to tell?

31:18 You know, are they going to get in trouble? Are they you know, because they always take on that blame themselves, which you know, It's like I've been teaching my kids since they could talk. I'm like, if anyone ever I'm like, the first thing, and this is what I told both of my kids when they were probably younger than they needed to be. But I'm like, I like, I don't I don't care. I'm preparing my kids for the ugliness of these smart as I see it. And I'm like, if anybody ever tells you that we're going to keep a secret, you know immediately that you have to come and tell me because that person's trying to do something they shouldn't be doing. Like that's it, that's all. That's all. Yeah, that's the if you hear those words we have to keep this a secret, you know that they're trying to do something that they should be doing, and you come to me immediately, and then they're dealing with me, you know, so it's like you know me, but who knows what happens. But yeah, I would anticipate that there will see if in fact, there was some abuse that's going on, if the kid's give an outcry, you know, because this might empower the kids. Yeah, because obviously now dad's got them full time, and you know, I mean, and he's certainly going to be asking them, which is a very awkward conversation for especially a father to have with his daughters, you know, I mean, that's typically mom's purview. No, that's the big mystery right now for me too, because none of this has been reported in any news or even like any true crime sleuth. Like I think besides for myself and the

32:50 FEDS and her, I don't think anybody's found this profile yet, and no one has heard that phrase that we have a very open mother daughter relationship. So I don't know if he even knows. It's not in the complaint at all, which is surprised. Isn't that a little bit surprising that that isn't in the complaint? Or no, I mean it isn't. It isn't because for their purposes, it doesn't move their case forward, you know what I'm saying, Because it's like that, That's what I mean, like that missing. Like the first thing that we were looking up is like where's the interstate? It's got to be like an order for him. You know, you've got mail fraud, wire fraud, all that kind of stuff. That's how they always nail people on, you know, like bankfully, you know, all those different types of fraud. Now the FEDS would have some obligation like are you fairly convinced something's in motion? Though, just from my own peace of mind that you know, they've told the dad that this was on here, or they have told the state or somebody is investigating this, yes, okay, i'd be I'd be shocked if they do. I mean, that's what I would say, but yeah, okay, yeah, if the FEDS are aware of a statement like that, yeah, you know, and I mean, could it just be puffery from her angle? You know? I mean, yeah, yeah, right, that's what she'll say. But you know, I mean she's doing it, you know what I mean, or she's attempting to do it in real life. She takes the steps to pack

34:25 a bag to drive to meet, engages in over nearly a month of text messages talking about you know, great details. I mean, this is clearly something that this woman is either into actively or has reached the point where she's acting on whatever her you know, her fantasies are, is twisted and warped as they are, you know what I mean. So I would I would be stunned, and frankly, i'd be furious. Yeah, okay, if you know, I mean, if I'm you and I kind of dug this thing up, you know, I maybe I'm shooting dude an email saying hey, you know, I like, I'm not trying to, you know, I just want to be completely transparent here. You know, I happen to be covering your ex wife's case on my podcast, and I happen to come upon this information I just want to make sure that you're made aware of it and you can take whatever steps you deem necessary. But you know, I like, you know what I'm saying. I meanly, like, if if I'm getting that and I don't and I hadn't heard from the FEDS the information you've given me, I'd be yeah, fucking furious, man, I'd be what you know, so, I don't know, man, I mean, it couldn't hurt to be honest with you. Well, that's uh yeah, yeah, okay, I mean it's pro it's a proactive move, dude, you know, to be honest with you. I mean so, like, I certainly would support the let me ask you, and I'm gonna I'm gonna

36:00 follow up on that with you. Let me ask you about something else we found on the fetish website, which is dude, even even like to talking about this stuff gives me a little bit of the spooks, knowing how big her connections are. But I'm gonna go ahead and say it, which is preferred family member. One of the things she says is I always love the training sessions led by my stepfather, and I have no idea. I didn't even know she had, you know, it's like I didn't know she had a stepfather. I don't know any of her family relations, but it's starting to like build this kind of like network of abuse or it's the beginnings of that that kind of spooks me out. Do you have any feedback on like what to should I just I mean, I don't even know where I would go with that. There's really nowhere I can think of to go except just I put her in the podcast. But yeah, I mean, as far as I mean that, that's like Murdock level type shit, except with like sexual abuse as opposed to him, you know what I mean, it's like you're talking about like you know, because it's like it's got that feeling right, You're talking about like three generations on you know, her birth side, you know, her bioside, and then like they've injected this step parent in like you know, and who knows where you know. I mean, it's like that's interesting, like we do we know? So was it her stepfather?

37:36 Here's the full comment and it's short, but it says preferred family member question mark. That's the thread that she's putting in, and she says stepbrother and whichever male cousin he shared me with and I always love the training sessions led by my stepfather. Jeez. So yeah, clearly her parents were Yeah, I mean and like they're like in Illinois, there's no statute of limitations on that, like anymore. There used to be like if if you know, there used to be like a statute on that, like you you'd be in the clear if a certain amount of time. Like I don't know what the statutes are there, but in terms of like a statute of limitations and when they could bring the bring a case, you know, like I might even be dead. She's forty five, you know what I'm staying. I don't know. Yeah, that that's like you're gonna have to like decide like how big of a rabbit hole you're willing to dive into, and like how how like potentially dirty you want to get your hand to like going in down that thing. Man, I just like you said, I just want to stay alive, honestly, right is how people disappear, that's dude, trust me. I know. It's like when we were doing Gaycy, it was like Darren and I were basically just sort of saying that that ROSSI was ga like Gaycy's accomplice. You know that he was like definitely complicit, you know, and Rossi had been protected because it came to be known that Rossi's grandfather

39:10 was this Victor Marsulo who was old Man Daily, like the you know, powerful Chicago mayor before his son became mayor. You know, old Man Daily was the Chicago democratic machine, which back at that time for him, was the most powerful democratic machine in the country. Man. I mean, the guy had a ton of power, like way more than a mayor typically would have. And you know, it turned out that like Rossi's grandfather was a was a mob guy, you know. So like like even when we were doing like our pod forty years later, like when I was sending clips of some of the tapes to like local news stations to kind of promote the pod when it was coming out, come back to like, yeah, our lawyer so he can't use the Rossy stuff. I'm like what hey, wow, And I'm like what are you talking about it. He's like, well, like they just won't let us use it. I'm like what, you know, because I knew back then that it had become known that that he was connected, like Rossy was connected, and you know, but I didn't think it would survive this long, you know what I mean, because it's like when I read the books that were written back in the day, you know, closer to when the case was, It's like they had used pseudonyms for ROSSI, but they had named Cram the other guy. There were two of them, you know, you know, so it was like it was one of those things. So when Darren, I were like, man, you know, and Darren, you know, he he packs heat. You know,

40:42 he's not playing. You know, I'm not a gun guy. Darren's a gun guy. And I'm like, I'm like, hey man, you got that piece of it. I don't know if it gonna be like rolling up on us, like if he catches window it, because it's like, you know, we're assuming that there the pods are going to become well known, and then you know that he's going to catch wind of it. And he's still alive. Because I reached out to him like hey man, you want to come on. He's like, you got fifty fifty grand. I'm like, well, what to have you deny shit? I'm like, I'll pay you fifty grand if you're gonna admit that you're you know, a complicity. Yeah, so it's you know, like that actually didn't take place, But like Darren and I, that's how we played it out in our minds, like we should call ROSSI. We kept saying it for months and months, like we should call ROSSI, we could really call ROSSI when we never called ROSSI. So but we did. We did know that the producer of The Devil and Disguise had tried to get him and she he told her that he was going to charge fifty grand for an interview, and it would have been him just denying shit. So right, right, Well, I have to give a plug. Now, anybody who's listening tapes from the Dark Side hasn't checked out Bob's pod defense diaries, and I gotta give just the little spiel, which is Bob is the son of the defense, the main defense attorney for John Wayne Gacy. And when Bob turned twenty one, his dad gifted him a box of tapes of pre trial interviews with the lawyers and gay

42:14 Cy and they've unearthed all this new insights and coverage of the case that has never been heard before. So it's if you like mainstream cases, you'll like it because it's Gaysey. But if you want something that's not the typical story you've heard of Gaysey, you'll also like it. So there's really no excuse not to listen to it. So I am converted Defense Diaries groupie, and you guys got to check it out. Checkout Defense Diaries and yeah, a lot of similar vibes here. Bob the EPA hunting junior, So he's technically the third in line who started the law firm. He was president of the Virginia State Bar Association. He was president of the fredericks Fredericksburg Potomac Railroad.

43:08 He was in the House of Delegates. You know, it's just crazy how far a lot of power there. Man, a lot of power there, and a family of Democrats too, which you know, I'm sure, I'm sure we're giving all the um oh what do you call a qan on guys fire for their fuel for their fire. But you know, you can be Republican or Democrat and be a child molester or a rapist, right. I don't think it follows, uh, I don't think it follows political lines at all. I I really don't think that's that's part of the I don't think that's part of the mix. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. It doesn't seem like it though, it doesn't seem like, yeah, so far we haven't found the uh, the DNA that shares the pedophile in democrat gene or a Republican and pedophile j Yeah, it seems to go with ways so um. And you had brought up like an interesting point about like when I was listening to your part one in part two about you know, there's kind of always that that argument that comes up in these types of cases, and you know, I mean it's pretty well known that you know, typically kids that were abused grow up to be abusers. And you know, but like you had made that poignant comment that you know that doesn't that doesn't give you a free pass to then become a pedophile yourself, right, and which is true. You know, it's like that that that kind of that mindset that you know, clearly the person's been damaged at some

44:39 point, you know, but there's got to be you know, I mean, I guess there's maybe the litment like the limited circumstances where I like, the person doesn't have actual conscious memories of it, and it's like buried there in the in the deep recesses of their subconscious they were abused, you know what I'm saying, Like and they can't understand why they're having these feelings. But the argument ends there because when you realize that you're having those feelings, it's at that point that it's in your power to do something to try to figure out what's going on with you. You know what I mean? Like that, like for what what whatever sympathy I have for that person in terms of them being a victim themselves, and now they've become the perpetrator. You know, it stops at that line when they begin having the realization that they themselves have for even if they don't know why, like they like I don't understand why I'll feel like why do I feel like this? Like why do I have these urges? You know? But but that knowledge within your own mind that you're having these thoughts, because like, it doesn't go zero to pedophile. It's like a it's a it's a long process, you know, where they dabble in it and the like they build their way up to it in terms of actually committing the acts. You know what I'm saying, it's

46:13 like and putting themselves in positions of power around children, which is very common, like we saw with Eleanor It's yeah, it's and for me it's really not. I'm pretty pragmatic about it. And maybe maybe that's a luxury I have because I don't have kids. I don't really carry or I try not to carry too much moral judgments because everybody fucks up. I mean, this is more than just a mistake. It's it's one of the most mysterious mistakes or things you could do. But I just feel like you do that you need to be removed from society for a long enough time that you know.

46:58 I mean, I think there's certain crimes like this. I think that this qualifies you to be removed from society for your life. I mean, you know, I mean you're you're it's attacking the innocent, like the most innocent, you know, like children are just such you know, it's like you know, your own, like the the corruption of your mind to do that to your own Like there's something even further genetically, not saying that that's proven, that's all alleged. Yeah, I think it's a combination of both. I think it's a nature nurture. If nurture is even the correct word for it, you know what I'm saying. I think it's like like when you get that, you know, where you come from a family, that there's that kind of abuse going on and you're a victim to it, you know, I think that that becomes kind of ingrained in you. And like so I think that there's a genetic aspect to it, but I also think that it's learned, you know, in a way too. And especially you know, if you've got like a situation where they're you know, the abusers making it seem that it's normalcy, you know, and it goes on for a long enough period of time, or the kid believe because kids always want to believe their parents, you know what I mean. It's that like talking about a position of authority and trust, there's no position as to a child that

48:28 has more authority and trust than the parent. You know, forget about preachers and teachers and all that your parent, Like that is the ultimate betrayal, you know, when you do that to your own child. Man, And that if you put it in their mind that this is normal, this is the way, like they don't have any way until they're out in the world and then they have the wherewithal or the ability or the courage to talk to like another friend and bring up like you know what I mean, It's like that thing where it's like, how do they find out that that's not normal, that it's not okay? You know what I mean? If they're being told by the parent, the person they trust most in the world, that this is the way it is, is how it you know what I mean, It's like such a warped, warped thing man in it. It's like there's something almost like even more for me, there's something almost even more insidious about this case because you read so much about like the mom who was a crackhead and like sold her daughter into prostitution, or you know, left the meth out and the kids smoked meth, or was being abused by a boyfriend or what. I'm not saying though all those cases are absolutely horrible, But this woman seemed like a normal, normal mother, is well adjusted, She held down a job, you know, they had on the appearances, they were both in private school, you know they were. They had a roof

49:59 over the her head food and it seems like the abuse was such a covert, you know, disgusting, a slippery kind of way that she And again I keep saying this all alleged because I don't want to get sued off the face of the planet. But yeah, it seems like almost worse or a different kind of evil than the complete where you can grow up and you can just say, well, yeah, my mother was a monster. You know, she smoked crack and sold us to the town pimp. Versus. Yeah, my mother took care of us, fed us, clothed us, educated us, loved us. But then she also raped us. You know, it's like she Jesus Christ. It's way worse because there's no there's no excuse, you know, with the like with the with the addict, you know, you can say, okay, well, at least, even though it certainly doesn't justify it in any sense of the word, at least it gives me an answer as to why potentially, you know what I mean, Whereas with this we don't get that answer, you know what I'm saying, Like what you're just left with somebody who, for all intents and purposes, seems like a well adjusted, loving mother, but she's got this like just this vein of evil that's running through her to where she could do like the most damage you could do to a kid, you know. I mean, it's like like that that kind of damage is forever damage. You know. It's like it's like I've I've I've made the argument that it's it's worse than murder

51:35 because it's like a continuing to trauma that it lives with them throughout lives. Man. You know, it's like it never ends. It's like never, you know. I mean obviously they're you know, the victims aren't thinking about it every second of every day, but it's always there, you know what I mean, And like it's going to be a trigger for them when they're subjected to, you know, hearing about it happening to you know what I mean. It's just it's that thing that's always with them forever, you know. And like what you were saying, man, like you know, if you got somebody who's either massively mentally ill or an addict, you know, like, well, while of course it doesn't justify the actions, at least it gives us as human beings like okay, well, at least at least there's that that I can kind of understand what would put them in that place where they could do that. Whereas with this that just it doesn't exist, you know, just like there's no rational for like normal people to understand how they could do that, you know. So it's like, yeah, it's a it's a disturbing case, man is. I'm surprised it didn't get more, specially because of like that's where I think the influence and the power of the family came in. I think that they really like tampered down like the news cycle on this thing, like especially locally, like because when you when you gave me the intel and the data and stuff, you know, I obviously was googling it seeing what I could pull up, and I mean there

53:05 were a few articles like but I was running into the same couple that you sent me, Like it just wasn't a story where there's this big of a family name involved. You would expect to hear a lot more about it, you know what I'm saying. It's just like it's one of those That's what that kind of spooked me a little bit too, was that lack of Well, let me ask you this, because I want to get your I want to get your feedback on on the opposite direction, So you brought up you know that I made that statement about if you know if you're abuse, it doesn't give you right to abuse someone. On the I've been debating whether to leave this inner take it out, which I guess if you're listening right now, I probably left it in. I give that that kind of intro when I play. I found that clip of Eleanor's voice when she is on the Big Brothers and Big Sisters, and I kind of say, you know, I think it's important that we remember these people are human beings and like are shared. It's kind of a philosophical thing. Is there a shared responsibility?

54:19 Obviously we're not responsible for the stuff she did, but we live in the society, we perpetuate this society, and I think we might not be capable of this specific crime, but I think we all have that capacity for evil within us. I was just going to get your take on how that landed. If that was too if that seemed blase or out of place, you can be totally honest with me, because Okay, yeah, no, I think I think that's absolutely true. You know, I think that all of us have that that deep inside of us. I mean, anybody you know, under the right circumstances or wrong circumstances, whatever the case may be.

55:02 You know, can can be driven to do things that are against our typical nature. You know, I think that exists in all of us. Man. It's like I say it all the time in my pot I man, man like, life is brutal, like for all of us, Like I don't give a shit if you have money, I don't give a shit what your circumstances. Life is just a series of body blows one after the other, you know, and you know with intermittent bouts of joy. You know, it's like like the most like the for for all of us. Man Like, Like I mean, how many famous people who have money and wealth and fame do you see committing suicide? Man, It's like it's just you know, like we all have our demons, all of us. Like there's no one on the planet anybody that says that they have they've had an absolutely perfect life. It's full of shit because all of us have demon It's like like I don't know what it may be, you know, but all of us have have our quirks, all of us have our into idio secrecies, all of us have our demons, and you know, some of us are able to manage manage them better than others, you know, And it's one of those things, but that that underlying thought of that we're all capable of it, as I think absolutely true, and it's scary, yeah, you know, but it's like it's it's one of those things where you know, like if you get you know, like I've kind of wanted I haven't done it, but I've contemplated, like I wanted to try and do like a

56:35 high wasket thing like travel down to like South America and like do the full blown you know, because I've I've had friends that have done it, you know, lawyers and stuff, you know, like professionals and like of like, yeah, I wanted to go do this. And it's typically people that have experienced trauma, you know, whether it be like they lost like a loved one, like a a an opportune time, or it was something that shouldn't have happened, and you know what I mean, whatever the case may be, you know, they've suffered some kind of trauma and they want to try to go and have this experience because it's supposed to be just transcendental. You know. It's like it's like it brings you into a different like mind frame. It taps into like the synaptics that we don't typically tap into on a on a general, you know, everyday basis, and it like you're you're seeing deeper into yourself and it can be terrifying. Like like I've talked to so many people that have done it and they're like, man, it was horrifying, you know, like I was seeing that, like you know, so it's like those kind of recesses of our mind which you're just like just we'd never get to, you know what I mean. And like, like I'm always fascinated about like the DMT thing in terms of like the studies have been going on with that obviously, the psilocybin LSD where you're you're like triggering these synaptic responses that you're typically not not getting into on an everyday basis, where you're seeing things differently, you know, you're viewing things differently, you're thinking about things differently than you normally would, and it's like I think

58:08 there's there's insight there, you know what I mean. It's like, so yeah, man, I think I think what you said is absolutely true. I think that there's you know, I mean, we know that we only use about ten percent of our minds. You know, that's a that's a lot of dormant brain dude. You know what I'm saying, that's a lot that we're not using. And I'm assuming that it's got some value, you know. I mean, I'm assuming that there there's you know, I mean, we could get it like super weird into it, like you know, with like you know, the ability like you know, do do people actually do some people have the ability to you know, communicate with people that are no longer here, to people have the ability to be able to stee into the future. I mean, who knows, like you know, I mean it's like I always tend to say, well, it's bullshit, you know, because it's the easy thing to say. But is it seems like it's bullshit right because I can't do it right and you know, it's like anything that I can't do and like sounds like bullshit. Man, you know.

59:07 So but it's like, who's to say that that that doesn't exist, you know, especially when there's just so much of our our mind that we can't access. You know that I'm sure, like I said, has value. You know, there's probably a use for it, and like you know, in in ten thousand years, if our species survives that long, I mean, who knows where we're going to be in terms of how much of our brain we're using at that point, you know. I mean, like we're in the scope of time, we're infants, like the human human beings like you know. I mean, we've been around for a blink of an eye in comparison to the planet, you know. I mean, so it's like, I mean, it's I don't know, Yeah, I think it's, uh, it's definitely worth keeping in there because I think there's a lot of true to it. Even if people don't want to hear it, I'm sure I'll get a couple angry emails, but I okay, that's good. Yeah, I mean, because it's it's not just it's not just like like pedophilia.

1:00:10 It's like anything like violence. It's like, I mean, hey, you're gonna have that reaction to this episode. People who feel violent urges because they heard this, that want it murder somebody or hurt somebody in their life, or you know what I mean. It can just trigger totally. So yeah, absolutely, man, I mean you're you're definitely gonna have the triggered warnings and this one you do. I mean I heard it. It's like, you know, when you need to because it's like this will like you know, especially especially victims man, like when they hear this kind of stuff. Man, it like I can't even imagine it because I was fortunate enough not to have been a victim, you know. So it's like it doesn't trigger me in that way, but it triggers me as a as a father, you know what I'm saying, Like it's sus me is to like, like the thought of that happening to my kid, you know, by anybody, you know, lawyer or not. That guy's gonna like, that person's gonna have a problem, you know. And it's like I like to think that I'll be able to stand back and let you know, justice take its course. But like I don't know what my instinct would be, you know, I tend to think I know what it would be. Like. I mean, like you know, whoever, if anybody were ever the misfortunate of abusing one of my kids, I mean, they probably wouldn't want to find out, like you know what I mean. But like it's one of those things where you know, like and I'm a I'm a I'm a peace loving

1:01:43 guy, you know, by nature, I'm not a violent person. Like I don't I never switched to violence. Violence is not my default at all, you know, Like I'll always try to, you know, like talk, talk through things first, because it's, you know, typically the best way to do it. But man, like when it's like guttural, when it's like when you're when you're you know, your your children have been attacked, it becomes you know, then it's just nature. Yeah, it is each its nature to take it course, man, you know, And it's like, you know, do do man made constructs such as laws at that point do they matter? You know? It's like that, like that is the only time when you kind of like can look at something in terms of like imprisonment as being a true deterrent. Like like I like, I've never felt like the death penalty was a deterrent to a serial killer. They don't give a shit. They're not sitting around thinking about, oh, all right, if you do this, I'm going to get the death penalty. That's not a thought in their mind, right, I mean, of course, evasion of being caught is a thought in their mind. But like the thought of getting the death penalty, even get caught, is not deterring them from doing it, whereas in a situation, a situation like that, like if I found out somebody was abusing one of my kids and I was murderous about it, you know that that would probably be a deterrent, even though they don't have death penalty and Illinois, but being having my life stripped away from me, you know, being able to spend my life with my kids and

1:03:15 my wife and my family. You know, like that that would be a deterrent to me in that sense. You know what I'm saying. It's it's just different because I'm rational, you know what I'm saying, Like you're an irrational mindset right now, like logically thinking about it. Yeah, exactly, I totally agree with that. Let me get your take on one more aspect of this story, which is Andrew Hersey, who was who is this retired artist lives in Virginia. He's the one who was caught photographing Eleanor Hoppy in the state park and you know, it didn't really seem like anything was there, but then I found this case where he was accused by multiple people back in twenty eighteen. I think it was of you know, engaging in this very inappropriate sexual harassment during an art modeling session, and then a history of this kind of behavior according to the university. Again, I mean, I don't know how much you can comment on this, because you know, we only have the information that we have. But it just seems like another one of those you know, little tip of a thread that you begin to pull and what the fuck is this leading down to? And how is she relate back to? I mean, my first thought is child pornography. You got this guy who likes to take pictures, you got this woman who likes to

1:04:49 abuse children. I mean, I don't know, do you have any thoughts or just anything on that. Yeah, well, I mean my first thought. And then I say it all the time because it's true in life, and I'm old enough to have realized it. I don't think you realize it until like you're in your like forties. Is that like always finds like in this world it's weird, like like you know, whether it be sinister things that you're into, whether it be music, whether it be like whatever, whatever it is that you're into, you tend to gravitate towards people that enjoy the same things like in this case, we're talking about two people that obviously have issues, you know, of the sexual abuse type type vibe. You know, So it's like they just tend to like find each other in terms of whether or not there's because I mean, like like you said, I mean we don't know. Like it sounds like like how they kind of met was pretty innocuus us, you know, right, it was like it was another one of these It was like a chat room or something like that.

1:06:05 Right, we don't know how they how they met there, there's no information. We just know they were both arrested in pocahonas State part together. She was charged with undressing where prohibited. He was charged with operating a business without a commercial license because he was taking pictures. I guess she paid him to take artistic pictures. That's all we know. We don't know how they met, what the extent of their relationship was, or anything. Yeah, I mean there's clearly that thought. You know, when we get the background of what she's into, you know that there's something more nefarious that could certainly be brewing with that relationship. You know, you've got you've got the guy who's the photograph guy and you've got the woman who is the procureur, you know.

1:06:57 I mean yeah, I mean you could get into a deep, deep rabbit hole with that thing in terms of where that could go, you know. And it's like it's the same like everything leads back to Gaycy with me, you know, and it was like the same ship with him. Like there's like a huge kind of like section of people in the true crime world that are like, oh yeah, he was definitely a part of a like a larger sex trafficking right even back in the early seventies, you know that, like you know, because you have the John David Norman guy who was a Chicago guy. There was this Cram connection with him and this guy who was like Norman's like Lackey Like Cram and this guy had a relationship. So there's like one degree of separation between Gaycy and this guy. And when this guy ended up getting busted in his office, they found like ten cabinets full of like dossiers of like kids that this guy was like you know, there was a whole network. You know, he's still like even when he was in prison, he had as like newsletter you know, like the kind of shit that they used to do back in the day, like throwing like a little like you know, like a little not a want ad per se, but like just a little blurb in the back of like these magazines where people would put in comments like, oh, I'm looking for a person I met here at a connection yeah whatever, those you know so like and they would like put their little things in there, and people in that network knew how

1:08:30 to look for him because this is obviously pre Internet. You know, it's like like what exists now with these chats and these fetish websites and all this dark nut shit. It's like it's the same thing, except it's it's easier now, you know, in terms of it's easier and it's harder because it's easier to catch, you know, it's trying to get caught. Definitely. That's a beautiful thing. Is like, you know, I talked to Justin Drown. I need to get you in touch with him. Is awesome with hosts of Obscura, and he said he has a view because I always struggle with the morality of or just my own personal ethics of I'm constantly trying to ask myself why I'm covering true crime, why I'm covering a specific story, what my motives are, how I'm covering it, And he said, you know, he said that he just views true crime in general as such a good thing for society because it raises awareness not only for victims, but I think, you know, especially potential perpetrators. It's like, you hear a story like this, You're like, Okay, I don't want to go in a fucking chat room and get caught by FBI, like, you know, fucking stay away from that, you know, hopefully, I mean that's the hope. But I agree with that completely. I mean, to me, like true crime is the like the fascination with it, like nationally or even internationally, is that it's really the you know, the human condition like on

1:10:04 trial, you know, I mean, it just shows just how fucking warped we are like as a species, man, you know. And it's like it's it's real, Like it's as real as as you can get, you know. And like you said, man in terms of you know, like trying to shed light on behalf of victims if you're doing it ethically, but also you know, as a cautionary tale, you know, for people like you said that are contemplating, like like I'm reading through this thing, and I'm like, how the fuck is this woman like not figuring out this? Like this is a sting, you know what I mean. It's like, like, are you like, like anybody in this day and age that like has their head out of their ass would have to be thinking, all right, like there's probably a pretty good chance I'm going down on this. There's probably a good chance. It's like like she's taking you know, fifteen twenty text messages where she's considering that to be all right. I vetted him like like I feel secure that this guy's not a cop, right. I mean, like you can see that early on in the chat thing where you know, and then where he's digging around like oh yeah, you know, he's trying to find some some sites that had you know, fathers abusing their kids, and you know it seems like they shut them down or they're they're broken, the link is broken. And then you know, so he's he's tempting her. He's like putting it out there that all like this is my ship

1:11:36 and I can't find it in order to draw her to the point where she's going to to you know, she's going to distribute what she did to him, you know, so she sends them the video, you know, and it's like that kind of thing. Man, is like like how do you like just in the like unless you're just completely oblivious to what's going on in the war world on a daily basis, Like how are you not suspicious of it? You know, like it like like it was funny when you were talking about like when you like you were talking about like how like you actually when you you copied whatever, heard that sixty eight digit code watching you put it in and you got on your like holy shit, dude, like immediately like you're you're microwaving your fucking computer, you know, because it's like even like touching it. Yeah, you know, being on that forum felt fucked like I had to actually make an account and yeah, I was like there's like guilty association shit, dude, Like like the mere fact that you took the risk to even put your shit out there, you know, it is like like you had to be thinking like, oh my god, like am I really going like I'm really deep diving? Like my hope my listeners appreciate this because I'm like actually actually like on the fucking radar now because I went into this chat like my name or whatever. I used my fucking podcast email and I made the count just named Chasing Tory because I'm like, okay,

1:13:10 maybe they'll get the drift. I didn't make any post, of course, but yeah, I was like, and actually this is kind of crazy, but I think I figured out who the FBI agent is on the site. I think I found his profile because it's like a I mean, dude, like you're saying, like, how did she not clock this guy? Here? Wait, I'll show you his profile picture. If I was going to like make a and you know what, maybe this is part of it is like do you know those scammers who you'll get an email that's like broken English, I'm in Africa and I have ten million dollars, you know. They they word it like that. Whether they started that intentionally or not, it's brilliant because it self filters out anyone who had two brain cells, so you're only going to get the people who are gonna fall for it to even reply.

1:14:05 So I wonder if if there was a similar thing with this guy, because it's like, you look at his profile, you're like, oh, this dude's probably FBI. At least that was that was my first thought. Let me send you his Oh wait, can I share it? She let me see share a screen. I mean, I don't know. Again, but this is the only guy she was talking to that had a Virginia address. You see that guy totally looks like a fun dude. Right, I'm like, he didn't even try, Like what the fuck right he's I mean, he basically looks like Hank from Breaking Bad. But I wonder if this was part of the strategy. Like, but this is a scary thing too.

1:14:54 How many people did did eleanor abuse to be so brazen about this approach, like just fucking taking a picture of like tit her face, sending child porn to just random people. It's like this was going like great detail about like that whole thing about like that that hazy dreamlike state. Man was like, this is like a bit she's done this shit exactly, you know what I mean, Like that that is just not something that somebody's kind of like just materializing in their mind thinking about it. That's actually they gave me. Like I'm like, oh man, this this woman's been doing this with their kids. Man, Like she's in there fucking creeping in her kid's rooms when they're fucking like in the dead to the world sleeping and you know they're like out of it and they're not you know, not really realize. Yeah, man, dude, it's like yeah, well that yeah, it's it's uh disturbing. Shit. Man. Oh this is the website, by the way, and again that's the profile pick it can pretty much you know at adult two kids. Wow. And then that that one last post, it was their last ever post on the website on March tenth, was for us.

1:16:15 It was really easy to just recognize nudity. We all sleep naked and when we wake up in the morning, we just don't put our clothes on. It's just pretty easy and lets the rhythm of our day and relationship flow. So it's like not full out coming on to like not a full on confession, but is as pretty much so like when did she get divorced from dude twenty night? Actually, let me pull this up. That's a good question. I think it was twenty nineteen, So I mean, let's assume that that's true, that that's like what goes on at the house. Is that like post divorce, right or was that like you know, because then that trigger is like do we need to look into dude, right because like dudes, Like if dude was a part of the nudist colony with the family nudist colony, then it changes it. But you know, this is what we're going on after the divorce, when the kids are splitting time between the houses.

1:17:17 But then you know, like when the girls are at Dad's house and Dad's and his pajamas and then they go back home and like like are the girls saying, Daddy, why? Like why is mommy always naked around? You know what I mean. It's like those conversations you would think that would occur. But again, man, it's like one of those things were so hard to know. I think the divorce records would tell us a lot. They're sealed, but I mean, I don't know if the Daily Mail, it's probably impossible to get in contact with them. But they say they got a five page complaints that lists Joels, you know, his list of com lance um, you know, and that's where it talks about bringing somebody into the house. And so I would imagine, but there's no way he alleged child abuse and then they gave her shared custody. So that's why I'm thinking he didn't know he didn't know or else he was like an active participant.

1:18:20 And then but yeah, there's no evidence or he knew and he wasn't an active participant, and but he was inactive in terms of stopping it, right, you know what I mean. It's like that which is which is even which is just as bad, you know what I mean, Like like he's worried about his reputation, his job and you know what his what that would do to his career, So he kept it, you know, under wraps. You know that's or in the other well not or but to add on to that the whole you know, because he so hoppy, he's not related to her legal dynasty in terms of blood. So I wonder if Dad comes in and starts putting pressure, like no, you're not gonna like I'll ruin you if you if you spread these sad I wonder if it's even beyond that.

1:19:19 I wonder if Dad is the one who got him as shit, you know what I'm saying. I mean, it's like like you're coming from like that, You've got this like three generations of power in tons of relationships, and you know, his daughter's husband could use a little bump and like this guy makes it happen for him, you know what I mean, It's like there's probably the more likely scenario, you know, So then like like like Dad's got all this leverage on him, and and then like you know, it's like we do we touched upon it, and neither of us will want to get sued, so we don't want to try to speculate too much about what was going on with that family. But you know, it's like this whole thing, I mean, and that's where you get into that that kind of mindset, like man, how deep does this shit go? You know?

1:20:06 Just how nefarious is this? Is this something that's been generational in that family? You know what I mean? Who knows? Where would where would you recommend? Because there is one last angle that I want to research on this case on my own, which is the step father angle, which, by the way, if I go missing you, I'm I'm I'm passing a burden on to you to continue this. But where would I go to even look up try to find who Eleanor's stepfather was. I mean, typically if you could figure out like you'd have to do basically like a like a family treat type thing to try to figure out, you know, like I would work my way backwards, Like if I were a PI, I'd say, all right, well, I'm gonna try to figure out when her phone got divorced, right what county they got divorced in, And then that's going to give me a pretty good idea. And like because they like typically, i'd pay for a background check and I'd find out for the last, you know, as far back as they can go in terms of records, you know, birth birth records, death records, you know where they've lived, because you like, you if you can kind of triangulate where they lived, and you've got access to a county courthouse if if the divorce happened there, and then if you go to you know, you can simply go to the what do they call it? Where you where you record your marriage license? What

1:21:40 you have to do, like you know, no, you have to record your marriage license. So I'd start at that county to see if, by chance, wherever wherever she lived, because then you're going to be able to figure out, you know, where where are this guy's from, Like where the where are the step dads from? Like who, like what his whole deal is, because that that's the key to finding it is is kind of going back like in trying to geolocate where where they would have been at the time that they were divorced, and when it sounds like mom got remarried, you know what I'm saying, so it was clearly it was their stepfather or mother got remarried, you know, and that that's how you have to do it. It's it's it's all all accessible pretty much by the internet, you know, except for when you got to go to the recorder's office and try to get you know, the marriage certificate right, you know, to see if they were today because he always has to register your your marriage certificate.

1:22:34 You know, that'll exist in the world somewhere in their public records, their public records. You don't have to have any kind of special authority to get that stuff. Okay, let me ask you. I think this would be my last question for you. Is so the upcoming court case against Eleanor. June sixth, we had our last update, so that's been a little while now, but they granted a sixty day delay so that the defense could review discovery. That that request was by an assistant federal public defender. Why would like, is there a way before trial. That public defender then becomes an actual legal team. And how was she even able to be appointed a defender if she had the means or like what's the she must have come? Like the only thing I can think is she was unemployed and that her family cut her off, Like that's you know, she has to like to get appointed a PD, you have to be indigent, like you know that, like whether it's federal or state. I mean, you have to be indigent.

1:23:55 There's got to be you know, like the threat of being incarcerated for over a year, and you have to be broke. So like the I mean, she could hire a private council at any point, and private council could come in and just the defenders off the case, Like they're not gonna be like the defender. They're gonna build a team, Like you know, the federal defender is just going to represent her or a trial if she doesn't get private counsel. So yeah, man, I mean it depends like when when when was she arrested? Like what date was that, Like she was arrested in what March marchin it was April, but yeah, right around April March. Yes, So I mean look like any any case, it's going to drag on. Federal cases moved much quicker than state cases a general proposition, Um, so it's not going to take as long as the state case would.

1:24:41 But yeah, I mean, she had to claim that she was indigent. I mean, she probably was not self employed. She probably was receiving child support, you know, from the husband. Like, like, I mean, was she working at that point? Did we read anything about that she actually had a job. She you know, she probably she was incenseport. Yeah, she claims she was getting ready to take a job, but she hadn't yet. I think, yeah, see, if we could get into those divorce proceedings, I'm sure that not only did he seek to have the kids moved over to him, but I'm sure he saw it obviously determinate child support as well as any kind of maintenance he was paying. He's like, like maintenance for what She's going to be incarcerated more likely than not, you know what I mean. Like if that was her gravy train and it dried up and she's got no doubt, man, then you know, because yeah, typically you would think like that coming from the family that she comes from. It's weird. It does not does not at all man like, Like, that's what you're saying, Daddy, I like, you know, I need money because I just did something super stupid and horrible. You know, will you help me with the lawyer? You know what I'm saying Like that, The fact that she has a federal defender is pretty stunning to me.

1:25:57 Actually, okay, that's what I was thinking, but I just had no I thought I read and I wish I had saved it. I found a way kind of like off the path website. It was more of like a gossip community, you know, like a next door or like a Facebook group almost for a community. It was called I even saved it. It's called DC urban mom dot com. And they were talking about this case and somebody brought that up, the fact that she had a public defender and they said, oh, yeah, like I think this is what she's doing, which is it. I can't remember exactly, but some kind of delay thing with the public defender while her dad was getting ready his lawyers to swoop in or something. And I wish I brought it, could bring it up.

1:26:50 But it's like it's four or four now, But I mean typically like on your first court date. Yeah, like you like, if say you get arrested on like a Friday night and like you're in front of a judge for a bond hearing on a Saturday morning, even if you have means you didn't have the opportunity to be able to get an attorney, you know, like say if you didn't have family that was calling and trying to get the service as a private council like that night so that they can appear for the bond hearing. They're going to appoint you a public defender at that time for like the purposes of the bond hearing. You know. But whether or not that that council is going to stay on it's gonna it has to be based on the indigency of the like they have to be broke man like. It just can't like they're they're not Like she had to have like cried poor at some point, like depending on how many court court dates there's been like that, you know. I mean there they're going, like I said, they're going to accelerate it because it's the federal court, but there's still going to be continuances because they do have to go through discovery. They're they're gonna have to go through and frankly what's going on right now is all the back room shit with with her attorney and the AUSA saying look, you know, they're emailing each other like this is what we're looking at with her, this is our offer initially, you know, because ultimately the different thing with again with the federal courts is like, typically if I go into state court and I've I've

1:28:21 arranged for a plea agreement between the state and my client, the judges is a general rule, will accept whatever we've come up with in terms of the plea agreement, Like the judge has to. Ultimately it's their decision to either concur with it and enter it or they can say, well, I don't agree with this and I'm not going I want to sentence you on my own. So with federal court, even when they're pleading out, it's it's like they're not agreeing to a number that's going to be left to the judge. Like ultimately, now typically will the judge like like the lawyers are doing all the work because I said, like that federal sentencing guideline is like a massive amount of work, and you're reaching this number, and then the judges are going to look at it in terms of what the government is suggesting and typically but at the end of the day, it's going to be up to that judge, like the like the federal government, the Feds. The government's not saying, Okay, we're agreeing to twenty years, you know, like they could say, well, we're agreeing to this this number within the guidelines like this range, like and it can fall anywhere in between there, like, so the judge ultimately has to agree with the sentencing guideline range and then the judge is the one that comes up with the number. So like, you know, so it's different than state court, but you know in terms of like, yeah, her having a like a federal defender, and I forget what they call like public defenders, Like I think honestly the federal defenders.

1:29:56 Maybe it's a federal pellate defender like that handle the appeals out of it. But like maybe they are just the federal offender or defenders. I don't know, but yeah, that's interesting, man, that could she could she get that federal defender and then like her dad come in and yeah, and and that like to to going to whatever that little community DC urban moms thing, Like that's that's what they're saying, because that can buy you time. Like ms language, is the judge off if the judge is going to allow private council to come in, So if she's keeping the the you know, the federal defender on in order to kind of stretch the thing out, and then she's saying, oh, well, I came up with the money to hire a private counsel. The judge is going to have to give new counsel time to get up the speed, you know what I'm saying, So that that does buy her time. But I mean, what is her is she Is she in the mcc or is she like on home detention or what no h no bond was issue. She's in jail, so too much of a threat to the community. So right, that would be my counter argument as to why is she trying to waste time? Right? Like that doesn't make any sense to me. It's like that that's that's if you're out Like when I've got clients that are out on bond, I'm trying to drag that shit like forever. If it looks like they're going in, you know what I mean,

1:31:26 It's like there are in no hurry to go to prison. It might be. I mean, this is just a guess in the dark, but I looked into hunting Andrews and Kurth and like some of the lawsuits they've they've been involved in, like defending. In fact, it's kind of weird, but they've been involved in quite a few defense cases against schools where kids had been sexually abused systematically, and and a lot of these the way they were able to get out of them was loopholes. And I mean, I take your your in defense diaries. No such thing as a technicality come up, but you know, things that maybe you wouldn't think of, Oh this is the angle we're gonna go with to try to get you know, you know, not get prosecuted for this. Do you think it could be just them combing through every single little bit to try to find some angle, because this case seems so airtight. It's like they're just trying just buying as much time to try to find anything they can. Nah, I think that, you know, depending on what it is in terms of because I'm just telling you, man, what the Feds when they come at them with the case, you know, they've almost always got them dead to rights, like like Allison has won a couple of federal trials and it's been like mind blowing, you know, Like like one of them was a crazy case where her client was

1:32:57 accused of, like the sent he was a trucker who had for the story was that these two girls who were working at the you know, prostitutes at the at the truck stop, you know, and like that's kind of a common thing, like it truck stops, you know, truckers because they're over the road, they're lonely whatever, you know, sometimes prostitutes will work in those areas. Sex workers will be over there and they'll be like, Okay, they'll hook up and they'll make money because they're just going into the cab of the truck and you know, blah blah blah blah. So this guy was accused of basically kidnapping them, binding them both, you know, raping them both, and then you know, threatening to kill them, and then like they both like lived, and like Alison took it to trial. She ended up winning the case because he was saying that they were lying, they were trying to extort money out of them, you know, and because there were two of them and their stories were consistent. And then she she won another one, and it was a big case in Chicago. It was a seventh seventh Circuit and now it was in federal court in Chicago at the Dirks.

1:34:01 And it was an aunt who was alleged to have given the gun to her fifteen year old niece who had used it on the South side of Chicago, like in Englewood, which is, you know, like the heavy gang area, and she used to kill another fifteen year old girl, like on some bullshit, and you know, so they were trying to get the aunt for being the one who gave her the gun. And so that went to trial and like Derek Rose, the old bull that like paid for the funeral. So it was a real high publicity casing and Allison beat it. And like that's the case she got dan on, Like that's the case, like the famous case where Alison was like the judge went back into chambers, who, by the way, the same judge Trump tried to appoint to the Supreme Court, Like her name was being cost out there, and she just she was so pissed that Alison won that case. That because Alison. The story was that Alison had been walking back to council table after an adverse ruling led like, well, the judge ruled against her on an argument so like in Alison said under her breath, which I know was true. Like Alison said that was fucking bullshit, and like it just sat down and like so the judge like there's no way that jury could have heard it, you know, but like in federal courtrooms, it's all miked up. Like so the judge was so furious, like after the trial that she went back and said that she was listening to all the recordings of like the like the day's events,

1:35:31 and she said that she she heard her say it, but she you know, and so like when it got published in the newspapers, it was like, oh, you know, defense attorney yells fucking bullshit and open court when it's like her, and like she got dinged on it, Like she got like a three month suspension for like that. That fu yeah dude, And it was like, yeah, so she won the case and she won that case. Had she had she not won that case, she wouldn't have gotten the day like that. If she would have lost that case, the judge would have let it go. Yeah, that's some petty shit. That's some petty bullshit. Dude. So yeah, you know, it's a perfect time for me to say again to my listeners. Maybe you haven't heard Bob's podcast Defense Diaries. The first season is the first season just called the Gaysy Tapes.

1:36:30 Yeah, gay Tapes, and yeah, just start at the very beginning. It's incredible. It really is a production that you would kind of expect from like an NPR Presents or something that's professional, polished research, fact checked music, but not overwhelming. Man, I can't wait to have you on to the True Crime Pod because I'm going to break down, like I want to hear all about like all these different aspects of the podcast. But dude, yeah, we'll definitely do it. Um, it'll be like a seven hour episode. Just hell yeah, it'll be the longest fucking episode you've done, dude, guaranteed, Like like no one can do longer episodes than me.

1:37:15 I could talk forever, you know this. I like we've been on for going on three hours now, So it does. It does. So uh yeah, like my socials like Twitter, as you know, I'm super active, I'm there, I mau what's primarily at Defense at Defense Underscore Diaries, Like I'm such a fucking idiot. I when I was starting all the accounts, I forgot that I created at Defense Diaries because I let Twitter like kind of followed the wayside. So I was trying to get my older kids. I'm like, yo, man, I need your help with the socials. I can't handle like the time constraints with it. So my son's like, he was like, well somebody took Defense Diaries. I'm like, oh, well, fuck it. Like he's like, I do Defense Underscore Diaries, not realize zing that I had created. Yeah, what a fucking idiot.

1:38:03 Man. I'm like, oh my god. So yeah, Defense Diaries, Defense Underscore. But you know, at Defense Diaries for Instagram and Facebook, and we got a great group which you're active in, you know, which is the Insider It's Through. Yeah, it's good man. It's it's about two thousand strong and they're they're active, they're you know, they're they're into it man. So it's it's cool. You know, it's cool to be able to you know, like you know it as a creator, like when you read like people may not realize how much of an impact that has on us. When people read like man, I love your shit, Like, thank you so much for doing what you do. Thank you for you know, you know, because it's like we're it reinforces what we're doing and it keeps us going like doing what we do because you know, believe it or not, we're not making jack shit doing this like now, I mean, the hope is that we will down the road, but you know it's a it's a it's a hope and a prayer, you know. And it's like we rely on word of mouth from all of our listeners to spread the love, spread the word because that's when you don't have a giant pile of money to go pay for Apple to put our ship in the top, you know, top fifty or whatever, you know, because like they're there.

1:39:12 They could tell me whatever they want to tell me about their algorithm. But like when some ship from Audio Chuck comes out into debuts at number one that's bought and paid for because they can't it can't be based on downloads because they don't have any yet, so you know what I'm saying. So it's like we like we've got his indies, We've got that uphill battle, and we rely exclusively on our listeners man in social media to promote our shit. And each other. You know. It's like, like, I like, I love you, man, I'll always promote your show because I think you have a great show, you know. And as we progress in our careers as podcasters, you know, you kind of you're able to pick and choose what pods you want to align yourself with, and you know what you're willing to go out there and promote. And like the ones that I promote and the guy in Gals that I love, I love them because I love their podcast, you know what I mean. And you're most definitely one of those dudes.

1:40:08 I've always loved your pod. I loved your pod, Like I don't listen to many pods, Like honestly, I don't. I just don't have time, like you know how it is doing our own shit, you know. And it's like you like to try to, you know, but yours. When I listened to your first season, man, I was just just completely encaptured. Man, Like, I loved it. I love the way you did it. I thought it was ingenious, and I loved your vibe so like I was a fan of yours right away too, So man, it was definitely mutual admiration as far as you went as far as I was concerned, you know, because like I like, in all honesty, I really don't listen to many pods. Man. I listened to yours. I listened to Josh's True Crime bullshit. I listened to Brett and Alice because I love hearing their side of it, you know, because it's just interesting.

1:40:57 It's like for me, that's a peek behind the curtain of who were my adversaries for twenty years, you know, like how they fucking work, you know. For me, I love that for a completely different perspective. It's like they're not they're not teaching me, like like their listeners love them because they you know, they do the same thing that I do. They teach your listeners about the law and how it operates, which gives people contexts people that love true crime. You know. That's one of the good things the gifts that I give them is I help them understand what the fuck they're watching and listening to and understanding it, because it it's more enjoyable if you understand it, you know. It just is so like for me, it's a different angle than that. It's like, like I said, I get to see behind the curtain of how their minds operate when they're trying to decide whether or not which way to go on a case and things like that, you know, and just how they think. So I love that side of it too. But yeah, there's so like I don't really listen to any of the mainstream, like the big media company stuff. I mean, I've dabbled with them, obviously. I listened to Cereal, you know, and it's like I just they're so formulaic, man, you know, and there's just like very little substance. It's just not my shit, man, And people love them. People like a nice easy listen. I mean, my you know, like you both of our pods, it's like you've got to actually pay attention to what the fuck we're saying or you're gonna miss shit. Like we don't have the kind of thing where you can zone out for eight minutes and then kind of tune back in. You've missed a lot of shit, you know. It's like you got to have the pause button ready if you're gonna be exactly something else. Yeah, because we don't. We don't have

1:42:27 filler, man. It's all meat, man. There is no there is no bullshit in our pods. So yeah, so you know, for my listeners out there that happen to jump over here because you hear that I'm on this on equivocally listen to tapes because it's fucking great. Tapes with a d Our Side is one of my favorite pods out there. And I guarantee you. I said it when you post it in my group, and I meant it like you'll thank me later. It's just it's a great pod. You take, you do your you do your fucking work. Man. You come in with the knowledge you're not coming in half ass. You're not just watching a date, lying and duking up some bullshit. You know. You dig into shit, which I respect and I love that. So thanks man, right back at you. And of course I'm hoping that even though you like my podcast, you like my memes just as much. I love your memes.

1:43:17 You know you know how much I love your memes. Man. I love you're bringing. I'm bringing a new energy to the meme the Defense Diary Meme game, which if you're not come and check out, like Bob was saying, the Defense Diaries Insiders group. I think if you just search Defense Diaries Insiders on Facebook, it should come up. And thank you so much, Bob, my pleasure. Always love you too, man. Anytime you hit me up, you know I'm always I'm always ready to hang with you.

1:44:00 And now, for our Patreon members, here's a little peek behind the scenes of my conversation with Bob before we started officially recording this episode, and then the after after show which comes after them