S7, BONUS: My full conversation with Eric

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Tomorrow is thirty six years since Jacob
died April tenth, so he would have

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been thirty six, almost thirty seven
years old. It makes me think about

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what his life might be like had
he lived, you know, would it

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be an uncle. I think that's
the part that hurts the most, you

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know, is thinking about what could
have been. The Dark Side contains descriptions

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of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion
is advised. This episode is the last

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bit of audio I have for you
in the Jacob Jeremiah Lundeen case, but

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I like to think I've saved the
best for last. It's my full unedited

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interview with Eric Carter lundein the Older
Brother of Jacob. As you know,

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if you've heard the season. If
you haven't, i'd recommend go back and

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listen to the full season and listen
to the interview that he did with his

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mother that's also on our feed.
You may have already heard a little bits

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and pieces of this interview in the
episode, and that's because I actually interviewed

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Eric before the full season was out. This is when I called up Eric

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and had some very important questions I
needed to ask him. Eric has become

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one of my dear podcasting friends,
and I would really appreciate it if you

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go subscribe to his show. It's
called True Consequences, and it's one of

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the absolute best victim focused true crime
pods out there. In fact, it

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doesn't even need a qualifier. It's
one of the best true crime pods out

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there. So go subscribe to True
Consequences today, And without further ado,

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here is the full conversation that I
had with Eric carter lundein Welcome to the

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Tapes from the dark Side after show. My guest today is Eric carter lundein

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from the podcast True Consequences. This
episode was about his experience losing his brother,

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and I appreciate you coming on and
talking with us. To Eric,

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thank you so much. It's an
honor to be here. Tz. And

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as I was just telling Eric,
there are parts of this small snippets that

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you might have heard in the actual
episode. I had some questions for Eric,

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and I figured we would do an
after show and I would use some

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of this talk that we're talking about
today in that episode. So first of

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all, let me ask you this. How many podcasts have covered Jacob's story.

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Oh man, I'm gonna get this
wrong. It's a lot. It's

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it's over twelve, wow, and
you had some some large shows. Yeah,

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did Voices for Justice cover Yeah?
Sarah Sarah covered it about two years

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ago, and this is something I
know. I think she started her show

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in regards to her sister's case,
and I just kind of assumed that you

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had started True Consequences to cover Jacob's
case, whether it was the first case

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or maybe you would get to it. But researching this case and listening to

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your podcast or I learned that you
actually you wanted to do this to cover

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victims stories, and you really weren't
sure if you were and you really didn't

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think you were going to cover Jacob's
case in the beginning. Is that right,

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Yeah, that's right. I didn't
want to talk about it. It's

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something that is extremely traumatic for me
and my family. It's a situation that

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is the worst situation that we've ever
had as a family, and so it

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was not something that I was excited
to do. I created the show in

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honor of Jacob because I wanted to
help people who are in the same situation

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as my family, and I wanted
to give a voice to people who are

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being ignored by the system. And
I wanted to provide a platform where families

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could share their stories and their words
without having to worry about being edited for

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content or having their words taken out
of context. So it initially I wasn't

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going to do Jacob's story at all. I mostly wanted to not only help

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families, but also highlight a lot
of the injustice that happens, especially with

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when it comes to child abuse cases
in New Mexico, and we have a

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really high rate of child abuse and
child death from abuse, and so it

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was something that more of for me. It was like a love letter to

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Jacob. That's really sweet. Can
you tell me about your decision to cover

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Jacob's case. Was there something a
specific event that caused you to want to

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cover his case? Yeah. I
was talking to the mom of a murder

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victim. Her name was Amanda.
Her teenage son and his best friend were

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taken out into the desert and brutally
murdered. One of the kids Amanda's son,

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but the other kid was a target
of some drug dealers and her son

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ended up in the car, not
really on purpose, it was more of

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a mistaken identity thing. And so
she came on the show to talk about

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the case talk about her fight for
justice, and we were having a conversation

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and I said to her something along
the lines of, whatever you ignore,

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you allowed to continue. And if
you're not willing to talk about these things,

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then you can't expect them to change. And I'm really good at introspection.

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I'm really good at, you know, thinking about what I'm saying,

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and I strive really hard to not
be a hypocrite. So when I said

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that, I kind of felt like
I slapped myself in the face and decided

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in that moment that I was gonna
I was going to be true to that.

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I'm not just going to say something
like that and not be true to

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it. So as soon as that
interview was over, I called my mom

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and I asked her if she wanted
to be interviewed on the podcast to talk

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about Jacob, because I thought it
would be a good opportunity for us to

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one finally have a conversation about something
we've never talked about, and to hopefully

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it would create some kind of catharsis
for us to have that kind of off

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of our shoulders. And then the
third goal was maybe it could help some

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other people who are maybe in a
similar situation or might help somebody avoid a

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similar situation. So those were kinds
of the things going on in my mind.

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Of course I wanted justice for Jacob, but at that point I was

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really feeling like it wasn't possible.
That was a very powerful interview that you

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had with your mom. I remember, you know, listening to that for

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the first time, and it pulled
a lot of that for my episode that

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I'm covering Jacob's case. Now,
there's a number of questions I want to

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get into here, but the first
thing to address, I think is you

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chose not to use the suspect's real
name, and so in my episode,

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I call him John. If I
have to use this last name, I

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just used John Smith, right,
and so that's how I'll refer to him

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in this interview. If that's okay
with you, Yeah, Can you first

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just talk about how you came to
that decision to not did you know,

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like right from the beginning you didn't
want to use his real name, And

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in talking with you, I've understood
that a lot more. But maybe for

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the audience, who for the first
time is you know, hearing this story

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and they're like, you know,
we want justice, we want this guy

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named. I want to I want
to know who he is, you know,

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I want to know his face.
What would you how would you respond

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to that? Yeah, I get
it. I understand the story is going

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to ignite emotions in people, and
you know, I get it. I'm

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very emotional about the case myself.
But the challenge that I'm basing in.

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Before I even aired my interview with
my mom, my mom and I had

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decided not to name him because we
didn't really feel like we wanted him to

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get any kind of recognition for anything. That was initially why we didn't name

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him in our in our conversation,
but I was also talking to my friend

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Edna, who is a former prosecutor
for the state of New Mexico, and

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trying to understand the case through her
eyes, through a prosecutor's eyes, and

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trying to understand why prosecutors were so
hesitant to do anything about this case.

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And one of the things she asked
me right away was are you going to

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name him in this podcast? And
I said, I don't think so.

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My mom and I don't want to, and she said, I don't think

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you should because in New Mexico,
there is a constitutional guarantee to a speedy

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trial for any defendant who goes through
the justice system, and it's been argued

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in the past that the trial could
start in the public, so defense attorneys

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could argue that he would not be
able to receive a fair trial or a

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speedy trial because of the way that
he is presented in the public. And

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so rather than take the risk of
any chance of prosecution, my mom and

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I decided that it was best to
not name him at all. That makes

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sense, and it also tell me
if I'm getting this right, But at

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least when I was thinking about this, it seems like you guys have a

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limited amount of power in this relationship. You know, you've been trying to

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get this guy prosecuted for decades now
and it hasn't happened, and he hasn't

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reached out to you, as far
as I know, he hasn't. You

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know, he hasn't posed a threat. But there's always that thought in the

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back of your mind, your mom's
mind, And so maybe this is also

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a little bit of a card in
your back pocket that if shit hits the

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fan, you have this power where
you haven't named him, but you know

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it's there, and maybe that's in
his mind Is that something that you've thought

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about. It's like you're reading my
mind. Yeah, exactly, That's always

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in the back of my mind.
Right If the Attorney General comes back and

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says we're not doing anything, well, then maybe it's time to sue him

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in you know, civil court for
a wrongful death. I don't know,

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but that would change the game,
and that would change the conversation, and

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I wouldn't necessarily be worried about naming
him. And so far, I think

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part of it too, Like you
said, there was an element of safety

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in that. I think almost like
I'm daring him to show his hand,

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right, and he hasn't, So
he's obviously I know that he's aware of

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what's going on. I know that
he's aware of the push that I'm doing

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to get justice for Jacob so and
I know through his family. Can you

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tell me about John's relationship with your
mom, which is something I didn't know

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you were telling me where we were
chatting, that she actually knew him from

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childhood, which I thought it was
just kind of like this boyfriend who she

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had just met. Can you give
us a little bit of background on that.

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Yeah, I think that there's a
misconception out there in the world that

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abusers have to be strangers, they
have to be people that you don't know

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well. And normally, I think
the majority of abusers are people that you

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do know, people that you do
trust, people that appear to everybody else

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as an upstanding member of society,
people who present a persona to the public

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of a great guy. But behind
closed doors there's something else. They become

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something else. And that's exactly who
John was. You know, my mom

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described him as a chameleon. And
yes, they went back all the way

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to childhood. So his dad was
a minister in town. My mom,

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my grandma, my grandpa, my
aunts and uncles, they all went to

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the church, so the kids all
grew up together. His sister married my

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mom's brother. His aunt is my
godmother. So we had known this family.

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We had known him for a long
time. He was also my dad's

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best friend and my dad was being
mentored by his dad. My dad was

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pre or he was trying to get
in there and try to become, you

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know, this big evangelist. And
so this person was not a stranger.

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This person was somebody that we all
knew. It was somebody my whole family

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knew. Did you know his father
edel Yes, Yeah, what what was

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that relationship? Like? Had you
ever seen his father be abusive to anyone?

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No? No, And I think
that probably John was abused at some

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point. I believe that in my
heart. I think that's why he behaves

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the way that he does. But
I don't know that it was his father.

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It could have been anybody. Now, this kind of is something that

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I just heard in the conversation that
you had with your mom on your podcast,

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and it was just a brief comment, but I wanted to see if

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you if you had insight into it. She mentioned that she started dating John

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after she divorced your dad, and
a little bit of that dynamic was to

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maybe make him jealous, maybe hopes
that they would get back together. Can

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you speak to that at all.
Yeah, I don't know that it was

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hopes that they would get back together. So my mom and dad, they

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were very young when they got married. My mom was seventeen, I think

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my dad was maybe twenty. And
my dad had aspirations of being like a

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really famous televangelist. That was his
goal, and so he spent a lot

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of time on the road and my
mom was stuck with me and Jacob trying

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to figure out how to feed us
because she couldn't work because she had a

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baby and a preschooler, and so, you know, there were times where

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we didn't have any food in our
house and we didn't know where we were

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going to get food from. And
then my mom finds out through John that

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my dad was having an emotional affair
with another woman. I don't believe that

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it was a physical affair. I
think that they were just spending a lot

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of time together. But for my
mom it was very it was a betrayal.

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It was a huge betrayal of her
trust. You know, she's struggling

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to keep food on the table,
struggling to keep hold of the house and

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take care of the kids and all
this other stuff, and my dad's just

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out hanging out with his friends.
So she laughed, and she did see

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John as this potential revenge against my
dad. She wanted to hurt him in

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the way that he hurt her,
and John was already grooming her for this

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anyway, Like he swooped in as
soon as she came to down and started

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trying to sweep her off her feet. So it was, you know,

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I think that's where my mom's motivation
was it was probably due to her age

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and her heart being broken and all
the pain that she endured and stress that

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she had. And how old was
she and how old were you at that

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time? So she's twenty years older
than me, So I was five and

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she was twenty five. And then
because Jacob is your full brother, so

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there was a time when she got
back together with your dad while dating John.

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No, Jacob was born before that. Oh, okay, Okay,

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God true, so it would have
been right right at that time. Basically,

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Jacob was about three months old when
they separated. Okay, this is

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another difficult topic that you just mentioned
in passing on your podcast. You said

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that John began molesting you after Jacob's
death, And I know you know,

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I'm not going to ask you any
specific topics on that unless you wanted to

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go into it, but I just
wanted to confirm had you ever seen John

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sexually abusing Jacob or any suspicions around
that. No, I don't remember him

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doing anything like that to anybody.
The only time I knew about it was

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when he started doing it to me, But he'd never abused anybody else in

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front of me. In these questions
too. I've got another couple here that

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are difficult, and they might seem
maybe confrontational, but they're not meant to

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be that way, and I would
just want to explain that this whole podcast,

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I've definitely taken your point of view
and to present your story, and

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in every case I've covered up to
this point, I've also tried to maintain

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an amount of neutrality, and so
I've kind of forced myself to see the

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opposite side too, and to try
to just take that into perspective. Not

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to I'm probably making these questions sound
worse than they are, but they're not

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really. And like I said before, if there's anything you don't want to

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answer, you're totally open to.
Had you ever seen John firsthand physically abused

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00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:45.400
Jacob? No, did John ever
tell you directly to tell people that you

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were physically abusing Jacob? Not directly, but he did when he was telling

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my grandmother and other people at certain
times when he was telling them about me

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being jealous of Jacob and her writing
Jacob. There's one time I remember him

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getting in front of me and like
squeezing my arms and saying, don't lie,

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don't lie. You know what happens
to people who lie. So that's

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pretty much. I mean, we
could take that, take it for whatever

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it is. I guess, yeah, yeah, I mean I think we

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all know what he was implying there. Okay, And then this is these

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are difficult questions too, and this
is kind of what I was asking when

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we were talking on the phone.
Mer Linda is your grandmother on your mom's

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side, So she's Brenda's mother yea. In this statements on Sue to Waltz

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police report, she mentions that she
had seen you. You know, she

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basically has a paragraph there which unfortunately
we don't have any any direct transcript,

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we don't have an audio recording,
and so it's just, yeah, it's

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secondhand and for me because it's sued
to Waltz a description of a conversation with

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her. But she said that Eric
had been extremely jealous of Jacob ever since

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Jacob was born. Now, I
know you said you were very excited to

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have a brother before he was born, and I knew you were only six,

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so it's very normal to have jealous
emotions. But do you remember him

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being born in like some of that
excitement dissipating or how would you describe it.

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I think that as he got older
and I started to notice that people

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were definitely more interested in him.
You know, I'm going from an only

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child to a second child. Was
I think probably challenging for me and my

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limited emotional capacity at the time.
I don't remember being jealous of Jacob to

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the point that I wanted to hurt
him. I remember being jealous of his

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name. I remember thinking that he
had a prettier name than I did.

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And it's possible, you know,
that I was that jealous of him.

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It's possible that I did pinch him
or hit him. I don't recall doing

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that. I was very small,
but it's possible. I mean, kids

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do get jealous of other kids.
Yeah, definitely, that's one. That's

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the other thing I was going to
say. She said that when Eric would

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walk past the baby, he would
hit or kick him. It's what Merlinda

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said. And that's hard to that's
hard to really interpret as far as I

251
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have a hard time believing that she
meant that literally every time you would walk

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past him, right, And so
do you think that that's I mean,

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you don't remember every time. I
mean, it's like you might have been

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jealous, you might have pinched him
or something like that. I mean,

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I'm sure there were times where I
hit him or you know, pinched him

256
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or something. There were times where
he pulled my hair, you know.

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So I don't know. I mean, I don't remember having this kind of

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like jealous rage that seems to be
like the theme of what people are saying

259
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here or what my grandmother's saying.
But maybe maybe I did. I don't

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know. In the two events that
were kind of cited, as you know,

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the ones that come up in the
medical reports are this incident where John

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and this is what I found out
A belief from you was that, or

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it might have been in the report
that John had left you to babysit Jacob

264
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at six years old. And then
I guess he came back and claims that

265
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you took him out of the crib
and dropped him. Yeah, that's a

266
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strange one. I don't remember that
happening. But I find it really hard

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to believe that any responsible parent would
leave a six year old in charge of

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a six month old baby. Like, I don't see that as something normal.

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It's from the objectively abusive. Yeah, definitely negligent, definitely negligent.

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Yeah, so I don't recall that
happening. According to his story, I

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was alone with Jacob and Jacob was
crying and I picked him up out of

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the crib and he fell and that's
how he fractured his skull and had fluid

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building up on his brain. So, yeah, did he ever? Did

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he or even your mom ever explained
why if they had suspicions that you were

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doing this, why they would have
left you alone with Well that's the thing,

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right, Well, my mom wouldn't
left me alone. My mom was

277
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at work, so it would have
just been him. And so that's that's

278
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:06.759
the question. If you're so concerned
about me hurting Jacob, then why would

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00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:11.079
you leave me alone with Jacob?
And that's not even the worst Why would

280
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you leave me alone? Like I'm
six years old? Why would you leave

281
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:17.039
me alone with Jacob? Yeah,
that's the worst one, But the secondary

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00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:21.799
one is definitely that. The thing
that's important to understand is that crib was

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very tall. I mean it must
have been. The rails must have been

284
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up to like five foot tall.
So in order for me to get Jacob

285
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out of there, I would have
had to have moved a chair I suspect

286
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.480
up against the crib and then tried
to pick him up. He was a

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00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:45.720
big baby. He weighed ten pounds
when he was born. By that point

288
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he was probably twenty pounds. I
would have been lucky if I was forty.

289
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So, yeah, you know,
physics alone, Let's say I do

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manage to get him out of there. Okay, maybe I could have dropped

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him off the chair. I don't
know. I don't recall that happening.

292
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:07.599
I feel like I would have,
right, And then there was one other

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00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:12.519
incident, and this is the last
thing in regards to this, but Jacob

294
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:15.960
in the medical report had a bruised
rib. Yeah. I don't know if

295
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:21.680
it was fully broken. I think
it's a broken heeled, broken heeled,

296
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:26.359
right. Yeah, And you had
one memory of kicking or correct me if

297
00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:30.440
I'm wrong, but I think you
said you had a memory of kicking Jacob

298
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:33.039
one time. Yeah, you do. You can you tell us what you

299
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:38.000
remember from that. We were laying
on the floor and he was kind of

300
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clawing on my leg, and so
I kicked, and like it wasn't very

301
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.920
hard. I don't think I would
have had strength to fracture his skull,

302
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:53.200
but I do remember my leg kicked
out and it did it, did him,

303
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:56.200
you know, on the top of
his not the top of his head,

304
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but like his forehead. And this
was a separate time and the crib

305
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:07.880
incident or this alleged crib alleged right
right, yeah, yeah, okay,

306
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.200
so this was not anything to do
with a rib a rib though, No,

307
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:15.440
oh no. And from that rib
do we have any was there any

308
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:23.400
ever, ever, any um hypothetical
situation put forth like the crib or the

309
00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:30.599
kicking that anybody to explain the rib? M No, none of them.

310
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:37.039
Nobody really knows when that happened or
or how long it had been. He

311
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.079
had been fussy a lot, and
it makes sense now knowing how much paint

312
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.960
he was in. He was pretty
fussy after shortly after he started we started

313
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:53.559
living with John. And another thing
that Merlinda said, this is not about

314
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:57.440
the abuse, but she said John
doesn't take care of Jacob very often.

315
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.480
Is that true because it seemed like
he was actually taking care of Jacob quite

316
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.160
so. Yeah, So what she's
talking about is after I was sent to

317
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.720
California to be with my dad,
my mom really stopped allowing Jacob to be

318
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:18.119
alone with John for extended periods of
time. And so that one night when

319
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.039
there was no other person laughed,
she had to leave him with him for

320
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:30.319
an hour. That's when he died. That's but it had been weeks.

321
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.279
It had been like maybe nine or
ten weeks where he hadn't been alone with

322
00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:41.279
Jacob. And did you I mean
you were in another city and you were

323
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.680
only six, So maybe in retrospect, did you ever hear from your mom

324
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:52.319
was he upset that it seemed like
he wasn't being trusted with Jacob anymore.

325
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:56.359
I don't know that he was upset. I would have to ask my mom

326
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.559
that. That's not a question I've
ever asked her, because I could see

327
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:04.039
his personality from what I've gleaned from
reading the reports and talking to you,

328
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:11.240
that perhaps that made him mad and
maybe he had some resentment towards Jacob for

329
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.279
that. He definitely resented Jacob.
I mean, there were times where he

330
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:21.519
screamed at my mom for turning down
the radio because Jacob was sleeping. You

331
00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:26.400
know. There were just several incidents
where he kind of burst out and broke

332
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:33.200
through his facade and yelled and got
kind of scary. But I think those

333
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:37.599
were the only times that he gave
any indication that he had some like anger

334
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:41.279
or rage issues. And there was
an incident too that I'm going to talk

335
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:48.359
I talked about in the episode where
it seemed like he went to hold Jacob.

336
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:55.880
Jacob had a very negative reaction and
started crying. Yeah. So one

337
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:00.519
of the things about Jacob is we'll
be right back after a brief commercial break.

338
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:07.440
One ad free episodes are available at
patreon dot com slash tapes from the

339
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:15.799
Dark Side He went to hold Jacob, Jacob had a very negative reaction and

340
00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:22.039
starts crying. Yeah. So,
one of the things about Jacob is he

341
00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:29.759
was adventurous. He was a daredevil. He liked crazy things. He liked

342
00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.799
to play Superman, you know.
He liked when people put him over their

343
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:37.279
heads and pretended like he was flying, And he liked to grab the front

344
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:41.880
legs of the baby swing so that
the whole thing would fall backwards. He

345
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:49.680
was a crazy kid. And then
his personality changed. He stopped liking people

346
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:56.440
putting him over their heads. My
grandmother pointed out to my mom and said,

347
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:00.599
look, he's acting really weird.
Normally he likes me to do this,

348
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:04.920
Now he doesn't, And so she
shows my mom and he's trying to

349
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.079
jump out of her arms to go
into my mom's arms, and he's crying

350
00:31:08.119 --> 00:31:12.640
and screaming and clawing at my grandma's
hair, and so my mom goes to

351
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:18.079
John and says, you know,
are you hurting Jacob? Like what's going

352
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.880
on? He's acting really weird.
He's afraid of things that he's never been

353
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:25.799
afraid of before. And John picks
him up and says, no, all

354
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:27.559
I do is this and starts to
put him over his head, and Jacob

355
00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:33.160
again is freaking out, trying to
jump out of his arms into my mom's

356
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:34.960
arms, and my mom tells him, like, don't ever do that again.

357
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:44.119
He doesn't like it, stop doing
that to him. I was also

358
00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:48.680
going to share story with you when
I was about two years old, and

359
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.920
I'm not sure if this is going
to be in the episode. It might

360
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:56.079
be I. Oh, well,
I don't have memory this, but I

361
00:31:56.160 --> 00:32:00.759
was told I was on the beach
with my sister, a younger sister who's

362
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:06.359
about a year and a half younger, and so she was under a year

363
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:09.559
old. I was about to and
I took a big handful of sand and

364
00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:15.599
went over to her little crib and
just threw it directly into her eyes.

365
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:22.440
And you know, I've I've also
slammed her finger in the door when we

366
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.680
were growing up and she had to
have stitches, and threw a pencil at

367
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:30.839
her and almost hit her in the
eyeball, and you know, she was

368
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.440
bleeding on her face. And of
course I got in trouble for all these

369
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:39.400
things. But if you took every
incident where you know, I had hurt

370
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:45.039
my sister, you could easily build
a case where I was a you know,

371
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.359
and I remember you talking about this
with the lawyer, how it's very

372
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:55.279
normal for there to be some level
of not physical abuse, but physical interaction

373
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:59.839
between kids and people get hurt,
you know, yeah, you know,

374
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:06.119
not to the point of death.
But yeah, reading reading this and just

375
00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:10.759
my perspective, I read it the
first time, I couldn't believe how obviously

376
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.599
guilty it's pure. John was.
And then when you told me, well,

377
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:21.519
you know I did Jacob one time, and you know I was jealous

378
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:23.000
of him, I started thinking,
well, wait a second, I got

379
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:28.440
to investigate this side of it and
try to remain neutral. And then I

380
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:32.119
come back to it and I'm like, yeah, there's really there's really nothing

381
00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:38.240
here, I mean, nothing that
could say you were responsible for this in

382
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:44.960
any in my mind, in any
sense of that. Yeah, I'm sure

383
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:49.960
that a defense team could find experts
who would disagree with you though, right

384
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.720
right, I mean, you know, everybody deserves their day in court,

385
00:33:53.920 --> 00:34:04.240
even if they are even if they
are potentially Yeah, can you update us,

386
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:08.440
even if it's in a vague way, the legal case against him.

387
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:15.679
I know you said in your interview
with your legal friends that it seemed like

388
00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:22.880
prosecution or getting this to court is
seeming less likely. But you did say

389
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:28.559
the case is technically reopened or or
I don't know if we can say that.

390
00:34:28.639 --> 00:34:30.679
Ye, take that, we can
talk about that, yeah, okay,

391
00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:34.639
yeah, or whatever you want to
speak to that. And it's interesting

392
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:40.760
because tomorrow is thirty six years since
Jacob died April tenth, April tenth,

393
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:45.360
so he would have been thirty six, almost thirty seven years old. It

394
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:52.519
makes me think about what his life
might be like had he lived, you

395
00:34:52.599 --> 00:35:01.679
know whatever, be an uncle.
Um, that wasn't the question you asked,

396
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:06.719
No, no, But that's that's
I did to you post that on

397
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:12.079
social media. And it's hard,
you know, it is. It's tragic

398
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:15.360
every time you think about it.
Yeah, I think that's the part that

399
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:20.519
hurts. The most, you know, is thinking about what could have been

400
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:27.159
and what my family's life could have
been like. But as far as the

401
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:32.079
case goes, a couple of years
ago, we did a campaign for the

402
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:37.199
Ten Days of Jacob. We started
April first, and we went into April

403
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:43.400
tenth, and we asked anybody who
cared about Jacob's case, who cared about

404
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:47.000
justice, to email the DA,
to call the DA, and to write

405
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:53.159
the DA in Socorro County. And
I think it was two days two days

406
00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:59.639
later, the DA called or emailed
me and said, please make this stop.

407
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:05.719
We're running on unlimited staff because of
the pandemic. We can't handle all

408
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:09.280
these calls and emails. So he
only made it to two days at Jacob

409
00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:16.760
before he asked us to stop,
which felt pretty good actually. And the

410
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:21.599
other thing he did was he copied
the Attorney General at the time, Hector

411
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:23.719
bald at Us in the email and
said, I'm turning the case over to

412
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:31.800
the Attorney General's office. And so
we immediately stopped all that activity and allowed

413
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:37.480
the Attorney General some time to review
the case. I sent everything that I

414
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:44.239
have to them. And it's been
a couple of years. We have a

415
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.199
new Attorney General now, but Hector
bald at Us did reopen the case.

416
00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:52.559
I don't really know what's happening right
now with it because I've been waiting for

417
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:58.159
the new administration to get settled.
So it's probably about time for another call

418
00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:06.880
with them. But continuing to push
on other shows because this Attorney General is

419
00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:14.960
the type of person who cares about
electability and re electability, and so in

420
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:21.000
order for this case to become a
priority in that office, it needs to

421
00:37:21.079 --> 00:37:25.960
have more people listening to it and
hearing it and learning about it and talking

422
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:30.519
about it. And the more that
happens, the less likely he is to

423
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:36.199
ignore us. Our last conversation with
the Attorney General's office and the advocate,

424
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:44.760
we were asked to go and find
evidence for them, which you know,

425
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:47.480
I mean, I'm willing to help
my brother's case, But like, the

426
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:54.480
reason we're here is because of the
state. So like we shouldn't have been

427
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:59.039
here thirty six years later. This
should not have happened. I shouldn't have

428
00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:02.960
had to endure sexual abuse. My
mom shouldn't have had to endure all of

429
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:07.760
the you know, violence that she
had to endure after Jacob died. None

430
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:12.880
of that was necessary. If they
would have just tried a little bit.

431
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:19.559
I mean, how is it?
And I'm just going off on a rant

432
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.719
and I'm sorry, but I think
it's just the anniversary. It's got me

433
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:28.239
riled up, but it actually is
going to lead into a good question.

434
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:31.079
But keep going finished. I want
you to keep ranting. I might steal

435
00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:37.159
your thunder here a little bit,
because how is it that this person confessed?

436
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:44.000
And how is there no recording?
How is there no transcript? How

437
00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:55.519
is there no summary of that confession? That's absurd to me. That's exactly

438
00:38:55.559 --> 00:39:00.000
what I wanted to ask you about, which is on a twentieth, nineteen

439
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:07.960
eighty seven, we had the first
confession where a polygraph examination was scheduled and

440
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:15.400
they called it off. We're actually
sorry. April fourteenth, nineteen eighty seven.

441
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:21.400
And then on April twentieth, Sue
de Walt talked with assistant chief Johnny

442
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:31.599
Trujillo, who said that he obtained
a full confession and do you have any

443
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:37.320
have you received any explanation, because
as per what you just said and what's

444
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:45.039
in the episode, that confession summary, audio transcript, everything is missing.

445
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:51.239
Do you have they given you any
explanation of what happened. It's a really

446
00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:59.320
old case and things go missing all
the time, because that's kind of in

447
00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:02.480
my mind. That's I mean,
we do have the polygraph and we have

448
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:12.159
the admission afterwards, but that's that's
huge evidence. I did read in so

449
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:21.079
in nineteen ninety two in the Affidavid
for a Rest, we have an explanation

450
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:25.920
of what happened in that confession,
but that was, you know, five

451
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.679
years later, going off of the
memory. And also, I don't know

452
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:36.760
that I believe him. Who is
that Johnny True? Yeah? No?

453
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.639
John? Oh right, right,
because the story has changed so many times.

454
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:46.519
Right. Have you ever talked to
John assistant chief Johnny Trujillo. Do

455
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:52.639
you know if he still works for
socorro skorro Skora. Oh? Thank you,

456
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:57.360
Yeah, you're welcome. I don't
know that he still works for them.

457
00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:08.079
I this can't go on the record, but I'm hm, so stay

458
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:13.199
tuned for that. Wow, that
would be well, I'll have it cute

459
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:19.880
up to listen to it. Yeah. Man, there's there's so much stuff

460
00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:23.840
in here, but you've addressed so
much of it in your first interview with

461
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:29.079
your mom that I'm gonna be using
so much of that. Okay, um,

462
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:36.960
trying to just review this. Those
are my major questions. Did you

463
00:41:38.119 --> 00:41:45.320
have anything you wanted to add to
this? Can I talk to your listeners

464
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:49.320
for a second, please? Please? All right? So I just want

465
00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:53.599
to say, um, thank you
so much for listening to Jacob's story.

466
00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:59.119
It means the world that you care
enough to listen. And I hope that

467
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:02.280
you can just take one small action
for me today if you can just share

468
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:07.840
Jacob's story, whether it's on Tz's
podcast tapes from the Dark Side, or

469
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:13.639
any other episode of Jacob's that has
been produced out there. The more we

470
00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:16.280
can get this out, the more
likely we are to get our day in

471
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:22.320
court. And Jacob deserves that,
my mom deserves that. We've been waiting

472
00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:29.360
for thirty six years. It's time. It's time. So if you could

473
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:30.840
help with that, it would mean
the world to me. I know it

474
00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:34.480
seems like a little thing, but
it is so much bigger than you can

475
00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:42.440
imagine. It really helps and I
appreciate it. And you deserve that too,

476
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.440
man. I know you said Jacob
and your mom, but you deserve

477
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:52.400
that. Thank you. Love you, dude, love you too. Thanks

478
00:42:52.440 --> 00:43:01.599
man. I think yeah, that's
powerful. Good stuff. Man. Every

479
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:06.239
year I think it's not gonna get
to me, but it does. It's

480
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.360
getting to me, and I've you
know, I'm so far removed from it,

481
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:15.760
so it's I can only imagine,
man, It's it's just awful.

482
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.039
Thank you for thank you for doing
this. Man, it means a lot.

483
00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:22.519
I'm sorry I didn't do it sooner. I just get caught up in

484
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:28.360
my own world and no worries.
Yea. Honestly, I feel very honored

485
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:30.159
to be able to cover it and
to be able to talk to you man.

486
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:36.599
And yeah, it's gonna be a
great episode. I can't wait to

487
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:36.920
hear it.