S11, Chapter 10: False Start

0:05 Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion is advised. Sbara just stood up here and said, what if this was an awful accident. Bart Halderson was shot in the back twice. You do not fall down and shoot yourself in the back twice. Bart Holderson and Christal Holderson had their heads chopped off, had their arms and legs removed. That was an awful accident. Think of for a second. You heard about the bones.

0:56 You saw those marks and the bones, those attempts, some of them, some of them ten, some of them five false starts is what the anthropologists called them. That is, someone on their hands and knees Chandler apparently, which was just as we was saying, I guess we're admitting to that now. They lied and chopped him up and hit him around the state on his hands and knees, some of them from the front to back, meaning probably could see the face of his mom and his dad as that saw moved back and forth, back and forth. And you just saw the bones. But what's before the bones, the skin, the blood, the muscle, the fat, the smell that they had been produced, the blood of his own parents, who would do this? And you're gonna leave this room.

1:48 Six of you are going to go home. Twelve are you gonna go into a room and talk to each other? And you're never gonna have an answer to that question, because who would do this? And the common sense meaning of it does something like this, But that's not the role of a jury. You're answering a different question, which is who did this? Not who would do this? Because for the life of you, I bet before you've got that notice in the mail a couple of months ago saying you had to come here, you would say nobody. You would have said nobody. Nobody would shoot their dad in the back twice? Who would kill their mom? Lay them on the ground in front of their family fireplace, Take scissors and pruning shears, took a hack saw, took a keyhole saw and saw off their heads, arms, legs, burn him in the fireplace. Over a hundred fragments of human bone found in that fireplace. You would say, no one would do this, But you got your jury summons and you ended up here and you found out that someone did do it. Chandler Halderson didn't.

2:58 I think every one has a bit of a fascination of the dark side. I myself Walls love the dark side as well. I think it's something that everyone secretly longs for moves, especially in this case when you're thinking about the femur. The femur is one of the thickest bones in your body. It takes a lot of energy and a lot of force to cut through that bone. The dark side, the dark, the dark. Your name for the record, Stephen Greiber. And what do you do for a living, sir?

3:46 I'm retired. What are you retired from law enforcement? In what capacity were you in law enforcement? I was an investigator or a detective for most of my years. A say that I was a law enforcement officer. This is yet another retired police officer in the Holderson neighborhood. In full transparency, at times, you and I have worked together in our careers. Yes, we're at at the Dane County's Attorney's office. And how long were you? How long were you at the district Attorney's office? Twelve years? Fair to say, Since you've retired, unfortunately we haven't kept in contact or anything. Correct? Correct? Okay, where do you live, sir? In relation to Bart and Krista Halderson I lived directly across the street. If our houses are almost like your image of each other, phone out my driveway across the street or go into their driveway, So just face each other in front of our houses, face each other. In the early part to the mid part of July of last year, was there some significant police presence in your neighborhood?

4:48 Yes, and was that for an ongoing period of time? Yes. At some point, did you talk to a police officer about something you perhaps noticed or remembered from July first, twenty twenty one, Yes, I did. Just First of all, if you could set the stage, what were you doing that day July first? Well, July first, Initially, I had been up at a I have a garden that's away from my property. It's relatively large, a vegetable garden, so I'd been up there most of the day. And then later in the day my granddaughter had a softball game, so I had attended that softball game, which was like around six o'clock in the evening. About what time in the day were you out in your lawn clean or the driveway they're cleaning the radishers. It was probably about seven o'clockish, somewhere around that time. And what did you notice that around that time that caught your attention? Well, what caught my attention was while I was there doing that for a period of time, all of a sudden I could detect a strong order just of burning wood. And so I thought someone maybe had a fireplace, or I should say, a fire pit or something outside going they're just burning some firewood. But about five minutes or so later, all of a sudden, that oder a burning wood became a distinct order that was more like in the line of what I thought someone was like barbecuing

6:24 a large pork, like in one of these large barbaricue barbecue pits or whatever that can hold a whole pork. Okay, And how long did that smell persist in your neighborhood, Well, for the remainder of the time I was outside, it was present, kind of became real strong, kind of like a pungent smell, to the point that I actually walked down my driveway half the distance is kind of looked up and down the street to see if anybody was doing anything like grilling or something else was going on, and I didn't see anything at that point. Chandler spent the better part of the night of July first and the early morning hours of July second, chopping up his parents into more manageable sized pieces. Like most things in his life, Chandler had not planned well for this. He didn't have the tools needed for such an intensive job, and so he may do with what he had. Kitchen scissors, heavy duty pruning shears, the kind with the long handles that can snap a thick branch, a keyhole saw, a hack saw, and an axe.

7:36 These were all items that he found in the basement or around his house. Just as Chandler wasn't so good at planning, he also wasn't that good at researching. If he had just spent a few extra minutes searching the basement, he would have found an electric sawsaw that his father Bart owned that would have made the job ahead much easier. When was picking the anatomical locations where to sever the limbs from his parents' torsos, you could tell that he failed anatomy. He chose to saw right through both femurs on each of his parents. The femur is not a particularly small bone. In fact, the femur is the largest bone in the human body, both by mass and size.

8:24 An adult femur is around eighteen inches long and one inch in diameter or two point five centimeters. The femur is also the strongest bone in the human body, capable of supporting thirty times the weight of a human. Now, I want to play for you an extensive portion of the Chief medical Examiner's testimony. She'll help us better understand exactly what happened to part in Christa's bodies on the night of July first. Good morning. My name is Agnyashka Ragoalska. I am the Chief Medical Examiner of Dane County. And approximately how many autopsies have you performed during your career? I did the numbers a few days ago and actually somewhere around four thousand, a little over four thousand and Slide thirteen.

9:11 You're looking at the cut end of the skin of the right leg. What I'm showing here is that the thigh has relatively clean cuts along the edge of the skin with a couple of triangular what are known as skin tags. One of the ways to distinguish a sharp force injury that's incurred by a sharp implement such as a glass, a knife, pair of scissors, is that the edge is going to be clean and relatively able to be put together. A blunt trauma that breaks skin what's known as a laceration. So let's say that it's a fall and somebody tears that skin apart. That skin becomes very jagged and irregular. There's usually some scraping of the skin on the outside, and that helps us distinguish these two. The features that we're seeing here are relatively clean incisions, so this was done by a sharp object. The irregular fragments, those skin tags that are outlined by some of the red arrows, those are telling us that there's motion. This wasn't just a clean cut that went all the way around. This was a cut and a stop, and either the weapon is removed and put back in, which is what usually happens if you think about cutting something that's the length of a thigh. The sharp implement goes in and out, and every time it does it doesn't go back in exactly into the same place, So you end up with a little bit of a skin tag. And just for the record, your hand kind of made

10:45 what I would describe as a sawing motion. As you explained that, is that accurate? Correct? Yes, basically I was demonstrating sharp implement moving in and out as it's being either going across or into the object that it's cutting. Slide fourteen, we're seeing that the bone here on the femur has been cut. So now we're looking at the bone or that leg flipped over to the other side, and what, if anything can you tell us about this cut. The most important thing has been outlined by the red arrow. It's a little bit hard to see because even though on the outside the tissue is brown and mummified, when we flip it over, on the inside everything looks gray. That's because it's essentially putrefying and it changes to that gray, homogeneous color. But the red arrow is pointing to where the femur ends. That's the bone of the thigh. You can see that this bone is also relatively smooth with a cut end. It doesn't look like if you think of a chicken bone that you break, for example, you can see that it has splinters or jagged edges on the sides. Here we can see that that bone is relatively smooth and cut off in a diagonal. So on slide fifteen, we're again looking at the right leg, and now we're looking at the back.

12:05 This is the popliteal fossa, or that little area behind your knee, and within that area is a single tear drop shaped defect. And what would cause something like that? There are multiple explanations, the first one being that it's possible insect activity. However, as you may have seen in a previous presentation and even on these photographs, you might note as well, the little holes that are associated with maggot activity, called burholes, tend to be very small and round. They're usually just a few millimeters or fractions of an inch wide. This is a relatively large hole. It has characteristics that are similar to a stab wound. On one end closest to that gray part of the ruler that has our medical examiner number, you can see that the end is pointed, but the opposite side is blunt. Now, with the amount of damage to the tissue in putrefaction, I can't say definitively that this is a stab wound, but it is suspicious for an injury with a sharp force injury such as a single edged knife. The muscle inside is putrefied. It's brown and yellow. But the interesting thing about it is that except in the areas of insect activity, at the edges. There is no blood, there is no hemorrhage. There's no area here that says that there was blood flow at

13:37 the time any of these injuries were incurred. In Slide eighteen, you're looking at the foot but at the cut end. So now the sole of the foot is on the table and you're basically looking down at the cut edge of the bone. Identified with the red arrows. You can essentially see what we talked about the skin. There is a nice smooth incision. It's basically a very smooth, linear cut edge all the way around. You can see that the bone also is relatively smooth. However, you can also see, identified by the green arrows, that there appear to be kind of steps in the bone. Again, this is consistent with a sharp force injury that can be sawing or some sort of cutting. But again we have movement and we have a rich it's not just cut clean through. At the very end, it almost looks as if there's a possibility that it was broken. Again, I would refer that to the forensic anthropologist about the very details of it, but from my perspective, I can see that the bone is being cut and at some point the cuts are irregular and they're making little steps, and also there may be some breakage of the bone as well. Towards the end and Slide twenty one, we're looking at the left thigh. The white arrows in the middle are identifying the types of holes that we see from maggot activity. We

15:09 see this very commonly and mummified remains, and you can actually see them in museum exhibits if you're ever looking at a mummy. These are these nice small round holes that a maggot makes in order to get into the tissue or to get back out. In contrast to that and the red arrows on the sides, again we're looking at incisions or sharp force injuries on the skin. You can see the cuts are very broad and very jagged. You'll see them on both sides of the picture and also both sides of the cut ends of the thigh. Excuse me, so you can see cut ends on the distal portion as well as the proximal portion. Again, sharp incisions with skin tags. Inside the red circle, you're looking at the bone the femur, and you can see that it also has a partially smooth edge. Now it's also making a jagged point suggesting that we have both sharp and blunt force injuries involved.

16:07 Turning to slide twenty two, what is the jury observing in Slide twenty two. In Slide twenty two, we're again looking at the left thigh, but now we're looking at a closeup of the bone, and the yellow arrow is showing us a nice smooth edge. Again this is where the bone is being cut, but the red arrows are showing that we have jagged ends in part of the cortex or the kind of circular rim, the hard part of the bone, and that is indicative of a blunt force injury, meaning not something that's done with a knife, but it could be either done with a different tool or it could be broken. In picture twenty three, we're looking straight down into that bone. Normally you would when you would look down at bone, you would see a nice circular rim which is a hard cortex, and inside is the medulla, the soft part where blood cells are made. But within that red circle inside of the marrow, which you actually see a fragment of bone. So this indicates that not only was this bone cut as we've already seen in other photographs, but it confirms the fact that there was blunt trauma as well, because now a broken fragment of bone is actually tightly jammed into the marrow. The chief medical examiner's testimony is the main thing we'll have to rely on to understand this part of the crime. Well, the pictures

17:37 were shown in the trial of exactly what he was describing. They were not broadcasts, which actually might be a small blessing in disguise, as the picture of Bart's torso was more than enough to get an idea of the graphic nature of the manner in which Chandler Holderson dismembered his parents. But on this podcast, as you know, we like to dive deep, sometimes deeper than maybe we should. Yet the facts of this crime are staring back at us with an unyielding ferocity. Over a period of hours, Chandler Alderson used rudimentary handsaws, keyhole saw scissors, and axe and hedge clippers to break down his parents' bodies into parts that would be manageable to fit into the family fireplace. He saw it through femurs, tibias, fibulous. He even decapitated both of his parents, chopped their hands off, chopped their legs off. There was not a single piece of flesh or bone that would stop Chandler on his mission to hide his pathetic, terrible crime. The medical examiner used a couple of phrases that painted a picture in my mind that was initially incorrect or at least somewhat flawed. The main phrase I got caught up on was blunt trauma, which

19:11 seemed to be in contrast to when she was describing the use of ant saws and cutting tools. She also described a broken fragment of bone jammed into the marrow. What I thought this might be implying was that Chandler sawed most of the way through the flesh and then through the bone, and then, perhaps getting impatient, just stomped on the arm or twisted a body part to finish the break. But I wasn't really sure if that made sense in this case, Not that it really matters, but I wanted to get a picture of exactly what happened, whereas close to what the facts describe. So I reached out to a friend of the show who is in the medical field. They're not an MD quite yet, but they're in medical school and just about to start residency. For now, they asked I just call them Ronnie Ronnie said that what makes more sense, at least from the details that I conveyed to them and the testimony I sent to them from the medical examiner. He said what was most likely was that Chandler was leaning on the body part, possibly putting something under the leg, perhaps to prevent the downward movement of the thigh, and then as the saw made its way through the bone, likely towards the end, it did have somewhat of a break, but it was unlikely from the details they heard that it was sheer force as far as a twisting

20:44 motion. They said, if he was just leaning into what he was doing, it would likely do something similar to what the medical examiner described. Line twenty four. We're looking at a very close up view of the thigh bones from the left extremity. The green arrow is again showing us those nice, relatively smooth cut edges. They do have some irregularity to it, but in comparison to those identified by the red arrow, where we have peaks and valleys up and down, the green arrow is showing us sharp force injuries. The red arrows are showing us fragmented bone, so likely blunt force trauma or breakage of the bone. And in the middle of the photograph, in the white box, you can see that you have linear cuts on the bone. So these linear incisions are essentially sharp force injuries or cuts that are made on the bone, most likely as the soft tissue or the skin is being cut.

21:45 On slide twenty six, now we're looking at the left knee that was recovered separately. The white arrows are pointing toward the femur, so that's the leg part, the thigh part, and the double arrows in yellow are showing the tibia and the fibula, so those are the bones of the leg. Here on slide twenty seven, we are looking at the distal or the far portion of the leg where the tibia and fibula are. What you're seeing identified by the white arrows is the edge of the skin, and you can see a very nice smooth cut all the way around. There are a few areas where it's jagged with those triangular skin tags or maybe some steps in the skin, but for the most part, it's a smooth cut all the way On this side, doctors the cuts, some of them have been really smooth, some of them have been more jagged. What would account for that many different things would account for it. It could be the result of using different tools, It could be the result of somebody being tired, it could be the result of different condition of the tissue. As essentially, they're indicators of motion, so it basically means that the sharp object is moving either back and forth or in and out in a stab wound. Every time we have one of those irregularities, you know that the knife has come in a different direction, or

23:15 the glass or whatever sharp implement you're using. We'll take a quick break and when we come back, we'll hear the end of the medical examiner's testimony, and then we'll hear directly from the forensic anthropologist. One of the reasons why I'm very interested in false starts is because it gives me a lot of information. The deeper the false start, the more information I'm going to get about the tool. Don't go anywhere. On slide twenty eight, we're looking at the left knee again and we're looking at the femur. So in the big white square in the middle, you can see again those kind of linear horizontal cuts on the bone. Those can be as a result of either cutting away the soft tissue or initial attempts at cuts that just didn't go all the way through. The red arrows are identifying the jagged edges of the bone. Again, this is indicative of blunt trauma, a fracture, or a blow with a heavy object. So Slide twenty nine is demonstrating again that right knee, but now we're looking at it kind of upside down. So what we're looking at are the tibia and the fibula, And just like we've seen in the other tissue, we're seeing both the smooth edge as it's cut. You can

24:49 see that it's almost a flat end right, and that's demonstrated by the red arrows, but the green arrow is showing you step or an irregular regularity excuse me, in the way that that bone is cut. So we're seeing some evidence of a sharp forest that's not clean all the way through, but kind of jagged cuts on top of the bone. In slide thirty, now we have reflected the skin from that knee. You can see that this looks very different from the remainder of the tissue on the outside. It wasn't as parchment like, it wasn't as dried, and you can also see here that the fat has stayed yellow as it would, and that the muscle is pink.

25:32 So this bone and muscle tissue and soft tissue is better preserved than that right leg, left thigh, and left foot. Again, there's no hemorrhage here either. Even though we have very good soft tissue, we don't have a lot of putrefaction and no artifact. There's absolutely no hemorrhage here. You can see identified by the L shaped ruler. You can actually see the linear, irregular kind of line across the bone that is where the end of the left sigh and the end of the femur of the knee are put back together, and that they approximate very nicely. They come right back together like pieces of a puzzle. So does that suggest that they were at one point the full leg? To me, yes, this indicates that these pieces of bone are from the same leg. And turning to your last slide, what does slide thirty two show us Slide thirty two is that same process remove the bone from the distal portion or the entire knee, and I put that left foot and the left leg back together. You can see that the large bone right in the front of the photograph has a bit of a gap that's just a bone that's gone and not going to be recovered, probably because of the tool that was used to separate them. But those pieces do come together, and to the left of that you can see the fibula and you can see how those two pieces of bone come nicely together. Now, doctor, you have a

27:06 name on your report of who you believed these legs belong to, Krystal Halderson. Is that correct? Correct? So I don't actually know what injury caused the death of Crystal Halderson, but I believe that she died as a result of some violence, a non natural death, and the cause of death is described as a homicidal violence. We just heard from the chief medical Examiner, who is basically like a forensic pathologist. Oftentimes the terms are used interchangeably. Just a brief description of the differences between a pathologist and an anthropologist. So a pathologist is mainly investigating the cause of death, and they performed the autopsy, I think scalpels, microscopes, that kind of thing. That's an extreme simplification, but we'll stick to that for now. A forensic anthropologist, on the other hand, really focuses on bones. They are bone experts. They'll use calipers, rulers, and measurement devices, focusing on any in every detail that someone's bones might be able to tell us about how they were killed or, in this case, how they were dismembered. The forensic anthropologist in this case also spends a good bit of time explaining exactly what she does in more detail. So I won't belabor you with the same exact thing. I'll just

28:40 go ahead and play her testimony for you. Good mornings. Please state your name for us, Christina Piero A Soto And what do you do for a living doctor? I work for the Dane County Medical Examiner as a forensic anthropologist and chief of Investigations. Doctor. Do you hold any post graduate degrees? So? I have a master's friensic anthropology at Texas State University. They do have one of the largest decomposition research facilities in the country, or what we usually call a body farm. I also hold a PhD again in forensic anthropology from the University of Tennessee and Knoxville. This is the university where you could consider the pioneer of Fransic anthropology. Again, with another body farm in place, once we search, once we recover, once we identified then we look for trauma. Our main goal is to a identify the type of trauma that it is, second to locate where is the trauma located in the body, and third mostly trying to figure it out how that trauma had something to do with the cause and the manner of death. You're not a medical doctor, correct, I am not. Could you explain how your job as a forensic anthropologist is different from their job. Sure, I work with the heart tissue, and the pathologists focus is on the soft tissue, so I focus on the bone itself, But the soft tissue is very important to me, so that's why I have to work along with the pathologist. Just to give you an example, if I see a bone still during autopsy and I see a

30:11 potential fracture, I always like to look at the tissue because there might be hemorrhage there. So we kind of need to work together. So my focus is on the bone itself. Doctor. Were you asked to become involved into the investigation of the homicides of Bart and Crystal Holderson and as well as obviously some remains or bone fragments found at the home on Oak Springs in the town of Windsor. I was, and you performed quite a bit of work in this case, did you not I did you have written four separate reports? I did, One involving Bart Holderson. That's correct, one involving Krista. That's correct, one involving the remains found near Krista that hadn't been DNA determined to be Krista correct. That's correct, and then lastly one regarding items found at the home on Oak Springs that is correct. When you use the phrase anthropolae logical tool mark analysis, what do you mean by that? What are you trying to determine? Anthropological tool mark analysis focuses on the characteristics, right, I'm looking at the characteristics that were left on the bone and how those characteristics actually are similar or dissimilar to any other tool or potential characteristics of other tools that were found near the discedent, or anything that is of potential evidence.

31:26 Could you tell me a little bit about the general condition of the remains when you had access to them. Sure, specifically for the discedent, there was a lot of changes, especially on the torso. There was marbling, there was skin slippage, there was maggot activity. So pretty much once the autopsy was completed. Doctor Corey Breslauer was the one who actually dissected the elements that were needed for analysis. Once the elements were dissected, the elements were macerated in water, which is just pretty much cleaning in water, and then after that there were dried for about two weeks. The elements that were removed from the body that had dismember men trauma were pretty much both arms and both femur or the legs. There are photographs of bones and these are in fact the bones of Bart Holderson. We're going to look at. That's correct, Okay. The first thing that I noticed is that there is dismemberment trauma on the skeleton, and it is consistent with transsection via sawing. When I'm doing an anthropological tool mark analysis, I'm trying to focus on several things. One of them is false starts, also the distance between the teeth of whatever tool we're using, and then also the direction of blade, a direction of progress progress of the blade, and also of the cutting stroke. Sure, so a false start is just a cut that did not go through right, that

32:57 it did not separate the bone completely. One of the reasons why I'm very interested in false starts is because it gives me a lot of information. The deeper the false start, the more information I'm going to get about the tool. One of them is the minimum curve. The curve is just a fancy word for the walls, the walls of that false start. So the width, the minimum width of that false start is actually going to give me information about the width of the set of the blade. If you think about it, the knife goes through the bone. So whatever false start I have and whatever width I have is directly correlated with the width of that blade. And an example I think maybe you and I talked about meeting in December, was I talked about cutting down my Christmas tree and where I pushed this saw through and it got stuck and I pulled it out. That's a false start.

33:47 Yes, that is a good example of a false start. Okay, we're talking a little bit today about breakaway notches and directions of blade progress. What do we mean by this and what is this the slide telling us whenever we go all the way down so we successfully cut whatever we need in two halves, sometimes we're going to get a breakaway notch or a spur. So a breakaway notch is just simply a projection of the bone in this case. So that projection is actually very important for me because it gives me some information. First, it gives me information about the energy or how much force was used. So we usually try to say the smaller the breakaway notch or the smaller the breakaway spurs, the less energy. And that's usually related to potentially a handsaw if we are using something with more energy, right, if we're using a power driven saw, that is going to give me a bigger breakaway notch.

34:45 So it gives me a little bit of information about the type of energy. So let's start talking about mister Alderson now using all of those tools in our tool belt. In terms of what we're looking at, Let's talk about the top certical vertebrae where mister Alderson appears to have been and beheaded at some point. Could you talk about what you were able to observe on that fourth cervical vertebrae. I only included the fourth cervical vertebrae because that was the only one that actually had dismemberment trauma. I don't know if you notice on the other photos, it seems like this one is a little bit different. The reason for that is because we're missing the top. So if you can see, most of the inside of the bone looks very brittle, almost like a sponge. So that is actually the inside of the bone. Inside of that bone you need almost like a like a cap. That cap is missing, so that tells me that at some point there was some transsection or some dissection or dismemberment of that area. False starts none were identified. One of the reasons for that is because of the type of bone that we have, it almost looks like a sponge. Those don't record the characteristics of the tool very well. So usually on more long bones we will record a better characteristics.

35:55 But usually on these what we call irregular bones, the false starts are not as common. Let's talk about the left arm or the left humorous. Talk to me about the false starts that you were able to identify. On this one. We do have a little bit more false starts. So we have about eleven cut marks that are consistent with a false start. Again, you're looking at non uniform striations, right, So those striations are non uniform that is a reciprocating motion with a straight blade. Because those are actually straight Let's start talking about the legs. Let's start with the right leg, the right femur. So in the right femur, I actually saw two cut marks which are consistent with false starts. Sure, and just to point out, the jury is able to actually see them. Those are those red lines on that left picture. Correct, So those represent times that the saw hit the bone cut but didn't go all the way through, and then it was attempted again.

36:50 That is correct. The left femur. Here, were you able to observe any false starts? I was. In this case, we were able to see one cut mark, which is consistent with a false start. This false star was actually very informative. Remember when I mentioned the deeper the false start, the better, so this one was quite deep. It gave me information about the width of the blade, which was point zero four, and also told me that there was a wavy set blade that is usually related to fine tooth hack saw blades. So this bone was actually cut from back to front, and the cutting stroke is telling me that the blade entered through the back of the bone and it went through the front. So anatomically, if a person standing up literally from their back for yes, when it comes to mister Halderson and We're going to go to some more summary slides in a second.

37:45 But when it comes to the dismemberment of his head, his arms, and his legs, were any of those dismemberments in your view, performed with power saws. No. I would say at this point, the examination in the analysis really goes towards a handsaw. Again, we're looking at very inconsistent cuts. We're also looking at destritions. Right, those striations are telling me that there is a straight blade, it's not a circular blade. In addition to that, you want to look at the breakaway spur. That breakaway spur is very important, and they're not quite they're not very big, which is indicative that there was not a lot of energy. That's one of the reasons why you know you want to use a power a power driven saw, right, because you want to have a clean cut that is consistent and there's a lot of energy there. Right when you're using your hands, there's not going to be a lot of energy there. So therefore the breakaway spur is going to be small and the cut is going to be inconsistent. Because especially in this case, when you're thinking about the femur, the femur is one of the thickest bones in your body. So it takes a lot of energy and a lot of force to cut through that bone, and you can kind of see it here on that microscopic view is it is quite thick. So in this case, I can say that the class characteristics that I saw on the elements or on the skal To elements are consistent with the class characteristic of those two tools that were found at the site. Sure are all of them consistent

39:16 with the same tool, or is are one of them consistent more with one tool than others? Yeah? So, actually the fourth cervical vertebrae seems to be a little bit more consistent with the broken hacksaw and then the other elements are right humorous, the left humorous, The right femur, and the left femur are more consistent with the keyhole or the alway super soare So if we go back a slide, you're saying the vertebrae and the fourth cervical vertebrae where the head was removed, consistent with that image on the right of the broken hacksaw blade, and the limbs consistent with the all way saw on the left. That is correct Okay, coming up on the next episode of Tapes from the Dark Side, move to the next slide. You found a number of teeth in that astrap, correct, I did, all right, So we'll look at some photographs. Just what are we looking at them? At the end of this episode, as well as every episode this season, included a little bit of bonus footage, so stay tuned till after the credits roll.

40:21 I'm tz I've been your host today. I want to thank you for listening to Tapes from the Dark Side. Truly, without a listener, there's really no point in me sitting here talking to myself in a dark room, which I do enough of that anyways, So thank you for being here. If every person listening was able to give one dollar a month, the show would be financially secure for the foreseeable future, pretty much the rest of my life. Now, I know that's not possible. Not everybody has a dollar to give, especially right now. The economy's tough. Inflation is kind of crazy. But let's say you do have a dollar, maybe five dollars to spare per month. Check us out on Patreonpatreon dot com slash Tapes from the Dark Side. I wouldn't be asking you unless we truly needed it to survive.

41:15 We're small indie podcast, and we survive because you are generous. Thank you to everyone who has ever given a dollar to the show. Truly grateful for you. In return for your Patreon pledge, we can offer you some pretty cool stuff. The coolest thing I think we offer right now is our Premium Feed, which basically includes every single episode of the main feed, the episode you're listening to right now, AD free in boosted audio quality, so it's at three hundred and twenty kilobytes per second. The regular feed is around two hundred. You'll also get all of our bonus episodes, including our new monthly series exclusive to Patreon called Night Terrors, to one off episodes delving into some kind of true crime footage from a particular case. I am really enjoying doing that show, and so far people have seemed to really enjoy listening to it, so we're gonna keep doing that. I think we're on episode number nine.

42:20 That's a Patreon and Apple Plus exclusive now. Like I say at the end of every show, and I truly mean this, if you can't afford to give right now, then hit me up on Instagram. At the dark Side Pod, which go follow us anyways if you're on Instagram and shoot me a message there and we'll hook you up with all of the night Terrors we've done so far for free. That's if you cannot afford a monthly subscription right now, which I understand. The only caveat is if you win the lottery. You have to remember the show, Okay. Our new dark Siders this week are Kevin Bailey, Caitlin A, Jennifer Martinez, om LTTIL, which I hope I'm saying that right there from Norway, so thank you all the way to Norway, Lynette Russo, Sarah Schmutz, Megan Brokenboro, Lisa Schmid, Carmen m Sarah Klausen, Steph Cowells, Camilla Shuesmith, and Melody wolf Conroy and also Michelle Bronowitz joined again for a year membership, which if you do that you get two months free, so keep that in mind if you're thinking about joining a different tier upgrading. Remember you can cancel any time.

43:44 You can switch membership Tears. There's no penalty, there's no hard feelings. If you come for one month, two months. We have a lot of people that come in check us out, maybe leave, maybe come back. I totally understand that and encourage it. So don't be afraid to sign up to our Patreon because you think you're going to be locked into some ongoing subscription. You can leave any time you'd like, but if you do join for a year, you get that two months free. Our newest producers are Melanie Otis Reck. That's spelled r e k vee. I apologize if I pronounce that incorrectly. By the way, let me know if I do mess up your name and you'd like it corrected, I'd be happy to do that.

44:34 Tapes from the dark Side pod at gmail dot com. Nigel from New Zealand. Thank you Nigel and Kristin Rice. Thank you to all of our producers who we read out every episode. So grateful to you all. You guys are the MVPs, Jesse Bateman, Mariah, Monique Wilkinson, Jeff Long, Teddy Redman, Jason Irvin, Jessica Cooper, Fiona Gibson, Jody c Sundan, Jamie Hill and Bellina Juyce, Lovelace Ilseekatalon Malory Bitterman, Santana Savine, Vanessa Miller, Jonathan Cox, genoe Y Bunco, Tyler Ernster, Sherry Sly, Shelley Jones, Alexis, Kathleen and Greg b. Thank you to twenty six hundred that's two zero six one hundred spelled out h U N D R ed. He allowed us to adapt one of his songs for our main theme.

45:43 You can find all of twenty six hundred's music on Spotify and you can find his links in our show notes. Thank you to Augusta Trevor Roam, who created original music for the show today and throughout our many seasons. August to Trevor Orham's music is also on Spotify and you can find all of his links in the show notes as well. Special thank you to Ronnie, who is our medical expert in training who helped me break down some of the medical examiner's testimony today and real quick, I want to say, if you can't afford to donate to the show, there is something else you can do that is almost as important and might be equally as important, which is tell a friend about the show. Just a handful of people listening today. Telling a handful of people about the show helps us stay alive. Truly, it can make a difference. Maybe you're in a Facebook group and somebody's asking for a recommendation on a new podcast. Chop our name out there. That kind of thing is greatly appreciated. Or maybe just text a friend, hey, check out this new series. Maybe you know they're in true crime or they like kind of dark stuff. Every single person who does that adds up and it really makes a difference at the end of the day. I cannot overstate that enough. And thank you to everyone who has shared the show. Eternally grateful

47:15 to you. You're the reason that four years later, I'm still sitting here talking to you. I'm editing a new Night Terror for you guys. It'll be up on Patreon right around July first. I'm excited to share this one with you guys. It's one of the weirdest stories I've ever read online and it kind of ties in a little bit to season one and the red Wine story. I'm excited to hear what you guys will think. It's a weird, wild one. That's all I have for you this week. Until next time, try to enjoy the daylight. I'm trying to get across the street.

48:39 They have a little bit more room. They go to wreck once a week except there's no personal cells. So mm hmm. Yeah, and I mean you probably have a shower with people. No, they're private showers or like the individuals, they're not. It's not a group shower. So yeah, I'm trying. So it's always the Oranges that doing black showers. You know, I never saw that. So they look like metal coffins. Oh yeah, yeah, orange is just been blacks. It's like falls and then like but there's like classic in the Seen Them I think, and then the Curtains of Prep two. But in the movie Gothica they all just stand under shower heads all naked. Mhm. Yes, yeah, that's that's not here.

49:49 Yeah. Oh they get them at all the prisons as group showers. They're not individual oh in the prison. Yeah, I guess trying. I have to go to prison. Yeah m hm. So Kristen, was that I said kiss me? Then I made a kissie sound. I found that old video. You come in and I'll try to be aggressively kissing your camera.

50:30 I know I wanted it, all right, Yeah you counted to me because you had to do it, but I wanted it, and so I hold it to my forehead and I pretend you're kissing level with him, and this is why kat has a therapist. Now, yeah, it really is fun. M hm. Hopefully they can get you someone. Yeah, I'm just something to talk to you. I suppose that would be nice. I mean, can you not talk to Katie you're investigating. They're really busy. I don't really want to bother them. M hm. I'm sure she wouldn't you give them more insight on me as a person. They don't have to proof, or they don't really need to know I'm a good person or not.

51:22 They just said that do their job. I suppose. I don't really think they're interested in my character. M hm. Try to do it as well as they can at their job. Yeah. Yeah, well I'm sure they still care about you, hopefully. Yeah. Tony Do is a good lawyer from what I've heard, h h its Goal. I've heard people told me she's pretty good. I actually haven't heard anything about her from anyone in here. Everyone's seen me with her on TV, but I know the younger one, Crystal Vera. Oh yeah, I haven't seen class. I've heard from other inmates about her in passing. Oh just Crystal. Yeah. No, one actually really knows about uh, freak. Yeah. Yeah, she had a pretty big case in like two thousand and five or sometime. Huge.

52:43 I guess it's find down a bit. Oh, she's like a manager, so she's probably really busy with other managerial things, m overseeing all the dreams Cuthy that she was a top dollar I guess. Yeah. Hopefully they can get my message out. Mm hmm. There's a bunch of pencil writing right in front of where I where I stand and call mm hmm, what I would say, fear coat. It's a q O t h f A no f A I r q O t H fair quest a I r q U p h q O t H no use o t H fair calls.

53:42 I don't know. I don't know. I've never seen a Q without a U behind it. Mm hmm. I'll just say square, but that's wrong. Could be quote or quail, but those have views name. Well, it's going to be a mystery. Oh m hm, let mess you let me see you. I'm trying to think of an idea to draw for you because I haven't. I don't have any new drawings to send. Mm hmmm. It's coming week, you know, A awsome dogs dogs I can't try a thing like animals. Maybe I can. I'll do my best. Okay, okay, draw like was a easy tebocket and muffins. Yesterday was the anniversary of us getting Muffin. By the way, Oh happy, she's well, happy birthday to Muffin late birthday a month ago. Yeah, that's totally but I'm sure she didn't. H still cringey. I remember when she's asleep on me. Yeah, when she was really tinny. I think pictures pop up in my snapchat memories of her sleeping on me. Oh gosh, when

55:15 she was drooling where she was my eater. She really thought she was a toy. I think she really thought she was food. And then I gave her a bones for Christmas. Did you hear about Rise's heritage results, Yeah, I wanted some border collie. I was with you. Oh yeah, her family tree is a reef. That's just not true. She's too small to be an actual border guy. I mean she could be like just really impressed, you know what I mean. That's why I said her family tree is a wreath. Mm hmm, okay, okay, yeah, a circle.

56:05 It's like I feel like she was probably like inbread and then like just the once of the letter or something. M yeah, that could be. She's also super fair, so like you just gotta learn picked up traits from a Yeah, mm hmm. I watched Birds We're hitting. I watched Birds of Prey and Harley Quinn has a hyena. Mm hmm, it's pretty cool. Yeah, I didn't see Birds will pray. We'll have to watch.

56:46 It's okay. It's on the calls for like twenty nine minutes. I'm just giving you a couple of minutes warning because I don't know officially. When we started the call, I thought we were doing a ten minute and I realized it's been longer than ten minutes, hasn't it. Yeah, it's okay, it's not It's not a lot of money. Just in case. I hope you have a great day. I love you, have a good lunch. Should throughout the day yet? Should I message you throughout the day still? Or is this messaging? It's the car light of Monday? Yeah, me too. And the pictures mhm. Then in the pictures, yeah, I'm still gonna find them. We had to rush back and so I kind of through everything. Mm hmm. You like I've unpacked, but it's most even like my tots and bins and like fags. Oh yeah, I got I haven't yeah, I haven't been able to go through my apartments of stuff.

58:02 That's all right, you take your time. Mm hmm mm hmmm. A dark side Scott