S11, Chapter 10: False Start

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Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions
of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion is

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advised. Sbara just stood up here
and said, what if this was an

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awful accident. Bart Halderson was shot
in the back twice. You do not

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fall down and shoot yourself in the
back twice. Bart Holderson and Christal Holderson

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had their heads chopped off, had
their arms and legs removed. That was

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an awful accident. Think of for
a second. You heard about the bones.

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You saw those marks and the bones, those attempts, some of them,

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some of them ten, some of
them five false starts is what the

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anthropologists called them. That is,
someone on their hands and knees Chandler apparently,

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which was just as we was saying, I guess we're admitting to that

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now. They lied and chopped him
up and hit him around the state on

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his hands and knees, some of
them from the front to back, meaning

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probably could see the face of his
mom and his dad as that saw moved

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back and forth, back and forth. And you just saw the bones.

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But what's before the bones, the
skin, the blood, the muscle,

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the fat, the smell that they
had been produced, the blood of his

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own parents, who would do this? And you're gonna leave this room.

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Six of you are going to go
home. Twelve are you gonna go into

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a room and talk to each other? And you're never gonna have an answer

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to that question, because who would
do this? And the common sense meaning

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of it does something like this,
But that's not the role of a jury.

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You're answering a different question, which
is who did this? Not who

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would do this? Because for the
life of you, I bet before you've

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got that notice in the mail a
couple of months ago saying you had to

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come here, you would say nobody. You would have said nobody. Nobody

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would shoot their dad in the back
twice? Who would kill their mom?

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Lay them on the ground in front
of their family fireplace, Take scissors and

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pruning shears, took a hack saw, took a keyhole saw and saw off

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their heads, arms, legs,
burn him in the fireplace. Over a

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hundred fragments of human bone found in
that fireplace. You would say, no

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one would do this, But you
got your jury summons and you ended up

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here and you found out that someone
did do it. Chandler Halderson didn't.

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I think every one has a bit
of a fascination of the dark side.

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I myself Walls love the dark side
as well. I think it's something that

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everyone secretly longs for moves, especially
in this case when you're thinking about the

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femur. The femur is one of
the thickest bones in your body. It

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takes a lot of energy and a
lot of force to cut through that bone.

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The dark side, the dark,
the dark. Your name for the

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record, Stephen Greiber. And what
do you do for a living, sir?

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I'm retired. What are you retired
from law enforcement? In what capacity

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were you in law enforcement? I
was an investigator or a detective for most

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of my years. A say that
I was a law enforcement officer. This

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is yet another retired police officer in
the Holderson neighborhood. In full transparency,

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at times, you and I have
worked together in our careers. Yes,

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we're at at the Dane County's Attorney's
office. And how long were you?

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How long were you at the district
Attorney's office? Twelve years? Fair to

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say, Since you've retired, unfortunately
we haven't kept in contact or anything.

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Correct? Correct? Okay, where
do you live, sir? In relation

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to Bart and Krista Halderson I lived
directly across the street. If our houses

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are almost like your image of each
other, phone out my driveway across the

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street or go into their driveway,
So just face each other in front of

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our houses, face each other.
In the early part to the mid part

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of July of last year, was
there some significant police presence in your neighborhood?

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Yes, and was that for an
ongoing period of time? Yes.

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At some point, did you talk
to a police officer about something you perhaps

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noticed or remembered from July first,
twenty twenty one, Yes, I did.

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Just First of all, if you
could set the stage, what were

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you doing that day July first?
Well, July first, Initially, I

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had been up at a I have
a garden that's away from my property.

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It's relatively large, a vegetable garden, so I'd been up there most of

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the day. And then later in
the day my granddaughter had a softball game,

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so I had attended that softball game, which was like around six o'clock

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in the evening. About what time
in the day were you out in your

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lawn clean or the driveway they're cleaning
the radishers. It was probably about seven

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o'clockish, somewhere around that time.
And what did you notice that around that

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time that caught your attention? Well, what caught my attention was while I

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was there doing that for a period
of time, all of a sudden I

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could detect a strong order just of
burning wood. And so I thought someone

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maybe had a fireplace, or I
should say, a fire pit or something

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outside going they're just burning some firewood. But about five minutes or so later,

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all of a sudden, that oder
a burning wood became a distinct order

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that was more like in the line
of what I thought someone was like barbecuing

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a large pork, like in one
of these large barbaricue barbecue pits or whatever

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that can hold a whole pork.
Okay, And how long did that smell

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persist in your neighborhood, Well,
for the remainder of the time I was

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outside, it was present, kind
of became real strong, kind of like

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a pungent smell, to the point
that I actually walked down my driveway half

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the distance is kind of looked up
and down the street to see if anybody

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was doing anything like grilling or something
else was going on, and I didn't

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see anything at that point. Chandler
spent the better part of the night of

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July first and the early morning hours
of July second, chopping up his parents

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into more manageable sized pieces. Like
most things in his life, Chandler had

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not planned well for this. He
didn't have the tools needed for such an

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intensive job, and so he may
do with what he had. Kitchen scissors,

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heavy duty pruning shears, the kind
with the long handles that can snap

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a thick branch, a keyhole saw, a hack saw, and an axe.

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These were all items that he found
in the basement or around his house.

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Just as Chandler wasn't so good at
planning, he also wasn't that good

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at researching. If he had just
spent a few extra minutes searching the basement,

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he would have found an electric sawsaw
that his father Bart owned that would

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have made the job ahead much easier. When was picking the anatomical locations where

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to sever the limbs from his parents'
torsos, you could tell that he failed

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anatomy. He chose to saw right
through both femurs on each of his parents.

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The femur is not a particularly small
bone. In fact, the femur

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is the largest bone in the human
body, both by mass and size.

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An adult femur is around eighteen inches
long and one inch in diameter or two

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point five centimeters. The femur is
also the strongest bone in the human body,

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capable of supporting thirty times the weight
of a human. Now, I

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want to play for you an extensive
portion of the Chief medical Examiner's testimony.

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She'll help us better understand exactly what
happened to part in Christa's bodies on the

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night of July first. Good morning. My name is Agnyashka Ragoalska. I

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am the Chief Medical Examiner of Dane
County. And approximately how many autopsies have

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you performed during your career? I
did the numbers a few days ago and

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actually somewhere around four thousand, a
little over four thousand and Slide thirteen.

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You're looking at the cut end of
the skin of the right leg. What

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I'm showing here is that the thigh
has relatively clean cuts along the edge of

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the skin with a couple of triangular
what are known as skin tags. One

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of the ways to distinguish a sharp
force injury that's incurred by a sharp implement

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such as a glass, a knife, pair of scissors, is that the

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edge is going to be clean and
relatively able to be put together. A

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blunt trauma that breaks skin what's known
as a laceration. So let's say that

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it's a fall and somebody tears that
skin apart. That skin becomes very jagged

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and irregular. There's usually some scraping
of the skin on the outside, and

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that helps us distinguish these two.
The features that we're seeing here are relatively

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clean incisions, so this was done
by a sharp object. The irregular fragments,

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those skin tags that are outlined by
some of the red arrows, those

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are telling us that there's motion.
This wasn't just a clean cut that went

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all the way around. This was
a cut and a stop, and either

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the weapon is removed and put back
in, which is what usually happens if

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you think about cutting something that's the
length of a thigh. The sharp implement

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goes in and out, and every
time it does it doesn't go back in

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exactly into the same place, So
you end up with a little bit of

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a skin tag. And just for
the record, your hand kind of made

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what I would describe as a sawing
motion. As you explained that, is

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that accurate? Correct? Yes,
basically I was demonstrating sharp implement moving in

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and out as it's being either going
across or into the object that it's cutting.

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Slide fourteen, we're seeing that the
bone here on the femur has been

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cut. So now we're looking at
the bone or that leg flipped over to

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the other side, and what,
if anything can you tell us about this

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cut. The most important thing has
been outlined by the red arrow. It's

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a little bit hard to see because
even though on the outside the tissue is

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brown and mummified, when we flip
it over, on the inside everything looks

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gray. That's because it's essentially putrefying
and it changes to that gray, homogeneous

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color. But the red arrow is
pointing to where the femur ends. That's

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the bone of the thigh. You
can see that this bone is also relatively

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smooth with a cut end. It
doesn't look like if you think of a

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chicken bone that you break, for
example, you can see that it has

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splinters or jagged edges on the sides. Here we can see that that bone

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is relatively smooth and cut off in
a diagonal. So on slide fifteen,

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we're again looking at the right leg, and now we're looking at the back.

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This is the popliteal fossa, or
that little area behind your knee,

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and within that area is a single
tear drop shaped defect. And what would

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cause something like that? There are
multiple explanations, the first one being that

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it's possible insect activity. However,
as you may have seen in a previous

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presentation and even on these photographs,
you might note as well, the little

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holes that are associated with maggot activity, called burholes, tend to be very

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small and round. They're usually just
a few millimeters or fractions of an inch

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wide. This is a relatively large
hole. It has characteristics that are similar

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to a stab wound. On one
end closest to that gray part of the

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ruler that has our medical examiner number, you can see that the end is

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pointed, but the opposite side is
blunt. Now, with the amount of

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damage to the tissue in putrefaction,
I can't say definitively that this is a

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stab wound, but it is suspicious
for an injury with a sharp force injury

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such as a single edged knife.
The muscle inside is putrefied. It's brown

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and yellow. But the interesting thing
about it is that except in the areas

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of insect activity, at the edges. There is no blood, there is

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no hemorrhage. There's no area here
that says that there was blood flow at

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the time any of these injuries were
incurred. In Slide eighteen, you're looking

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at the foot but at the cut
end. So now the sole of the

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foot is on the table and you're
basically looking down at the cut edge of

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the bone. Identified with the red
arrows. You can essentially see what we

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talked about the skin. There is
a nice smooth incision. It's basically a

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very smooth, linear cut edge all
the way around. You can see that

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the bone also is relatively smooth.
However, you can also see, identified

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by the green arrows, that there
appear to be kind of steps in the

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bone. Again, this is consistent
with a sharp force injury that can be

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sawing or some sort of cutting.
But again we have movement and we have

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a rich it's not just cut clean
through. At the very end, it

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almost looks as if there's a possibility
that it was broken. Again, I

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would refer that to the forensic anthropologist
about the very details of it, but

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from my perspective, I can see
that the bone is being cut and at

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some point the cuts are irregular and
they're making little steps, and also there

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may be some breakage of the bone
as well. Towards the end and Slide

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twenty one, we're looking at the
left thigh. The white arrows in the

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middle are identifying the types of holes
that we see from maggot activity. We

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see this very commonly and mummified remains, and you can actually see them in

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museum exhibits if you're ever looking at
a mummy. These are these nice small

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round holes that a maggot makes in
order to get into the tissue or to

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get back out. In contrast to
that and the red arrows on the sides,

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again we're looking at incisions or sharp
force injuries on the skin. You

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can see the cuts are very broad
and very jagged. You'll see them on

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both sides of the picture and also
both sides of the cut ends of the

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thigh. Excuse me, so you
can see cut ends on the distal portion

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as well as the proximal portion.
Again, sharp incisions with skin tags.

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Inside the red circle, you're looking
at the bone the femur, and you

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can see that it also has a
partially smooth edge. Now it's also making

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a jagged point suggesting that we have
both sharp and blunt force injuries involved.

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Turning to slide twenty two, what
is the jury observing in Slide twenty two.

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In Slide twenty two, we're again
looking at the left thigh, but

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now we're looking at a closeup of
the bone, and the yellow arrow is

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showing us a nice smooth edge.
Again this is where the bone is being

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cut, but the red arrows are
showing that we have jagged ends in part

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of the cortex or the kind of
circular rim, the hard part of the

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bone, and that is indicative of
a blunt force injury, meaning not something

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that's done with a knife, but
it could be either done with a different

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tool or it could be broken.
In picture twenty three, we're looking straight

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down into that bone. Normally you
would when you would look down at bone,

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you would see a nice circular rim
which is a hard cortex, and

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inside is the medulla, the soft
part where blood cells are made. But

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within that red circle inside of the
marrow, which you actually see a fragment

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of bone. So this indicates that
not only was this bone cut as we've

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already seen in other photographs, but
it confirms the fact that there was blunt

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trauma as well, because now a
broken fragment of bone is actually tightly jammed

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into the marrow. The chief medical
examiner's testimony is the main thing we'll have

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to rely on to understand this part
of the crime. Well, the pictures

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were shown in the trial of exactly
what he was describing. They were not

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broadcasts, which actually might be a
small blessing in disguise, as the picture

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of Bart's torso was more than enough
to get an idea of the graphic nature

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of the manner in which Chandler Holderson
dismembered his parents. But on this podcast,

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as you know, we like to
dive deep, sometimes deeper than maybe

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we should. Yet the facts of
this crime are staring back at us with

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an unyielding ferocity. Over a period
of hours, Chandler Alderson used rudimentary handsaws,

213
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keyhole saw scissors, and axe and
hedge clippers to break down his parents'

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00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:30.200
bodies into parts that would be manageable
to fit into the family fireplace. He

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saw it through femurs, tibias,
fibulous. He even decapitated both of his

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00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:41.400
parents, chopped their hands off,
chopped their legs off. There was not

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a single piece of flesh or bone
that would stop Chandler on his mission to

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hide his pathetic, terrible crime.
The medical examiner used a couple of phrases

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that painted a picture in my mind
that was initially incorrect or at least somewhat

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flawed. The main phrase I got
caught up on was blunt trauma, which

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seemed to be in contrast to when
she was describing the use of ant saws

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and cutting tools. She also described
a broken fragment of bone jammed into the

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marrow. What I thought this might
be implying was that Chandler sawed most of

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the way through the flesh and then
through the bone, and then, perhaps

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00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:37.799
getting impatient, just stomped on the
arm or twisted a body part to finish

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the break. But I wasn't really
sure if that made sense in this case,

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Not that it really matters, but
I wanted to get a picture of

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exactly what happened, whereas close to
what the facts describe. So I reached

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out to a friend of the show
who is in the medical field. They're

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not an MD quite yet, but
they're in medical school and just about to

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00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:07.640
start residency. For now, they
asked I just call them Ronnie Ronnie said

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that what makes more sense, at
least from the details that I conveyed to

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them and the testimony I sent to
them from the medical examiner. He said

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what was most likely was that Chandler
was leaning on the body part, possibly

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putting something under the leg, perhaps
to prevent the downward movement of the thigh,

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00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.000
and then as the saw made its
way through the bone, likely towards

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the end, it did have somewhat
of a break, but it was unlikely

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from the details they heard that it
was sheer force as far as a twisting

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00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.440
motion. They said, if he
was just leaning into what he was doing,

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it would likely do something similar to
what the medical examiner described. Line

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00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:00.559
twenty four. We're looking at a
very close up view of the thigh bones

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00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.559
from the left extremity. The green
arrow is again showing us those nice,

243
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:10.799
relatively smooth cut edges. They do
have some irregularity to it, but in

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00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.200
comparison to those identified by the red
arrow, where we have peaks and valleys

245
00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.319
up and down, the green arrow
is showing us sharp force injuries. The

246
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.960
red arrows are showing us fragmented bone, so likely blunt force trauma or breakage

247
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.880
of the bone. And in the
middle of the photograph, in the white

248
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:32.279
box, you can see that you
have linear cuts on the bone. So

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00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:37.680
these linear incisions are essentially sharp force
injuries or cuts that are made on the

250
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.839
bone, most likely as the soft
tissue or the skin is being cut.

251
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:49.119
On slide twenty six, now we're
looking at the left knee that was recovered

252
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:57.039
separately. The white arrows are pointing
toward the femur, so that's the leg

253
00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:03.480
part, the thigh part, and
the double arrows in yellow are showing the

254
00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:11.920
tibia and the fibula, so those
are the bones of the leg. Here

255
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:15.400
on slide twenty seven, we are
looking at the distal or the far portion

256
00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.000
of the leg where the tibia and
fibula are. What you're seeing identified by

257
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.400
the white arrows is the edge of
the skin, and you can see a

258
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:27.119
very nice smooth cut all the way
around. There are a few areas where

259
00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:33.079
it's jagged with those triangular skin tags
or maybe some steps in the skin,

260
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.880
but for the most part, it's
a smooth cut all the way On this

261
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.119
side, doctors the cuts, some
of them have been really smooth, some

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00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:47.079
of them have been more jagged.
What would account for that many different things

263
00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.519
would account for it. It could
be the result of using different tools,

264
00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:55.079
It could be the result of somebody
being tired, it could be the result

265
00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:03.440
of different condition of the tissue.
As essentially, they're indicators of motion,

266
00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:08.480
so it basically means that the sharp
object is moving either back and forth or

267
00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:11.440
in and out in a stab wound. Every time we have one of those

268
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.839
irregularities, you know that the knife
has come in a different direction, or

269
00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:23.000
the glass or whatever sharp implement you're
using. We'll take a quick break and

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00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:27.559
when we come back, we'll hear
the end of the medical examiner's testimony,

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00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:33.000
and then we'll hear directly from the
forensic anthropologist. One of the reasons why

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00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.119
I'm very interested in false starts is
because it gives me a lot of information.

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00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.680
The deeper the false start, the
more information I'm going to get about

274
00:23:41.680 --> 00:24:04.279
the tool. Don't go anywhere.
On slide twenty eight, we're looking at

275
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:10.079
the left knee again and we're looking
at the femur. So in the big

276
00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:14.559
white square in the middle, you
can see again those kind of linear horizontal

277
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.279
cuts on the bone. Those can
be as a result of either cutting away

278
00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.880
the soft tissue or initial attempts at
cuts that just didn't go all the way

279
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:26.559
through. The red arrows are identifying
the jagged edges of the bone. Again,

280
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:33.160
this is indicative of blunt trauma,
a fracture, or a blow with

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00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.960
a heavy object. So Slide twenty
nine is demonstrating again that right knee,

282
00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.880
but now we're looking at it kind
of upside down. So what we're looking

283
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.319
at are the tibia and the fibula, And just like we've seen in the

284
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.599
other tissue, we're seeing both the
smooth edge as it's cut. You can

285
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:55.480
see that it's almost a flat end
right, and that's demonstrated by the red

286
00:24:55.599 --> 00:25:00.720
arrows, but the green arrow is
showing you step or an irregular regularity excuse

287
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.640
me, in the way that that
bone is cut. So we're seeing some

288
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.920
evidence of a sharp forest that's not
clean all the way through, but kind

289
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:12.960
of jagged cuts on top of the
bone. In slide thirty, now we

290
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:18.920
have reflected the skin from that knee. You can see that this looks very

291
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:23.200
different from the remainder of the tissue
on the outside. It wasn't as parchment

292
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:26.160
like, it wasn't as dried,
and you can also see here that the

293
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:30.039
fat has stayed yellow as it would, and that the muscle is pink.

294
00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:37.759
So this bone and muscle tissue and
soft tissue is better preserved than that right

295
00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:42.400
leg, left thigh, and left
foot. Again, there's no hemorrhage here

296
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.759
either. Even though we have very
good soft tissue, we don't have a

297
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:52.039
lot of putrefaction and no artifact.
There's absolutely no hemorrhage here. You can

298
00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:57.640
see identified by the L shaped ruler. You can actually see the linear,

299
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:04.039
irregular kind of line across the bone
that is where the end of the left

300
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:07.759
sigh and the end of the femur
of the knee are put back together,

301
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:12.000
and that they approximate very nicely.
They come right back together like pieces of

302
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:18.599
a puzzle. So does that suggest
that they were at one point the full

303
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:21.880
leg? To me, yes,
this indicates that these pieces of bone are

304
00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:27.480
from the same leg. And turning
to your last slide, what does slide

305
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:37.039
thirty two show us Slide thirty two
is that same process remove the bone from

306
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:41.440
the distal portion or the entire knee, and I put that left foot and

307
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:45.119
the left leg back together. You
can see that the large bone right in

308
00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:51.279
the front of the photograph has a
bit of a gap that's just a bone

309
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.519
that's gone and not going to be
recovered, probably because of the tool that

310
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:57.680
was used to separate them. But
those pieces do come together, and to

311
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:00.400
the left of that you can see
the fibula and you can see how those

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00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.240
two pieces of bone come nicely together. Now, doctor, you have a

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00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:12.680
name on your report of who you
believed these legs belong to, Krystal Halderson.

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00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:18.920
Is that correct? Correct? So
I don't actually know what injury caused

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00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.839
the death of Crystal Halderson, but
I believe that she died as a result

316
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:27.279
of some violence, a non natural
death, and the cause of death is

317
00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:34.200
described as a homicidal violence. We
just heard from the chief medical Examiner,

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00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:41.519
who is basically like a forensic pathologist. Oftentimes the terms are used interchangeably.

319
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:49.160
Just a brief description of the differences
between a pathologist and an anthropologist. So

320
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:56.559
a pathologist is mainly investigating the cause
of death, and they performed the autopsy,

321
00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:02.039
I think scalpels, microscopes, that
kind of thing. That's an extreme

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00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:07.559
simplification, but we'll stick to that
for now. A forensic anthropologist, on

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00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:12.319
the other hand, really focuses on
bones. They are bone experts. They'll

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00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:19.039
use calipers, rulers, and measurement
devices, focusing on any in every detail

325
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:25.519
that someone's bones might be able to
tell us about how they were killed or,

326
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:30.160
in this case, how they were
dismembered. The forensic anthropologist in this

327
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.960
case also spends a good bit of
time explaining exactly what she does in more

328
00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:40.400
detail. So I won't belabor you
with the same exact thing. I'll just

329
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:44.599
go ahead and play her testimony for
you. Good mornings. Please state your

330
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:48.000
name for us, Christina Piero A
Soto And what do you do for a

331
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.319
living doctor? I work for the
Dane County Medical Examiner as a forensic anthropologist

332
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:57.079
and chief of Investigations. Doctor.
Do you hold any post graduate degrees?

333
00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:03.319
So? I have a master's friensic
anthropology at Texas State University. They do

334
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:07.079
have one of the largest decomposition research
facilities in the country, or what we

335
00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:12.720
usually call a body farm. I
also hold a PhD again in forensic anthropology

336
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:18.119
from the University of Tennessee and Knoxville. This is the university where you could

337
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.000
consider the pioneer of Fransic anthropology.
Again, with another body farm in place,

338
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:27.039
once we search, once we recover, once we identified then we look

339
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:32.799
for trauma. Our main goal is
to a identify the type of trauma that

340
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:37.519
it is, second to locate where
is the trauma located in the body,

341
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:44.279
and third mostly trying to figure it
out how that trauma had something to do

342
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:47.599
with the cause and the manner of
death. You're not a medical doctor,

343
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:49.920
correct, I am not. Could
you explain how your job as a forensic

344
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:56.079
anthropologist is different from their job.
Sure, I work with the heart tissue,

345
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:59.799
and the pathologists focus is on the
soft tissue, so I focus on

346
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:03.680
the bone itself, But the soft
tissue is very important to me, so

347
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.960
that's why I have to work along
with the pathologist. Just to give you

348
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:11.279
an example, if I see a
bone still during autopsy and I see a

349
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.440
potential fracture, I always like to
look at the tissue because there might be

350
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:18.759
hemorrhage there. So we kind of
need to work together. So my focus

351
00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:23.519
is on the bone itself. Doctor. Were you asked to become involved into

352
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:29.359
the investigation of the homicides of Bart
and Crystal Holderson and as well as obviously

353
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:33.200
some remains or bone fragments found at
the home on Oak Springs in the town

354
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.240
of Windsor. I was, and
you performed quite a bit of work in

355
00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:41.599
this case, did you not I
did you have written four separate reports?

356
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:47.119
I did, One involving Bart Holderson. That's correct, one involving Krista.

357
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:52.480
That's correct, one involving the remains
found near Krista that hadn't been DNA determined

358
00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:55.960
to be Krista correct. That's correct, and then lastly one regarding items found

359
00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.319
at the home on Oak Springs that
is correct. When you use the phrase

360
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:03.559
anthropolae logical tool mark analysis, what
do you mean by that? What are

361
00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:08.519
you trying to determine? Anthropological tool
mark analysis focuses on the characteristics, right,

362
00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:14.279
I'm looking at the characteristics that were
left on the bone and how those

363
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:22.400
characteristics actually are similar or dissimilar to
any other tool or potential characteristics of other

364
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.519
tools that were found near the discedent, or anything that is of potential evidence.

365
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.680
Could you tell me a little bit
about the general condition of the remains

366
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:38.319
when you had access to them.
Sure, specifically for the discedent, there

367
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:44.359
was a lot of changes, especially
on the torso. There was marbling,

368
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:49.359
there was skin slippage, there was
maggot activity. So pretty much once the

369
00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:57.079
autopsy was completed. Doctor Corey Breslauer
was the one who actually dissected the elements

370
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:02.640
that were needed for analysis. Once
the elements were dissected, the elements were

371
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:07.200
macerated in water, which is just
pretty much cleaning in water, and then

372
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:12.359
after that there were dried for about
two weeks. The elements that were removed

373
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:20.240
from the body that had dismember men
trauma were pretty much both arms and both

374
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.000
femur or the legs. There are
photographs of bones and these are in fact

375
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:27.160
the bones of Bart Holderson. We're
going to look at. That's correct,

376
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.400
Okay. The first thing that I
noticed is that there is dismemberment trauma on

377
00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:36.519
the skeleton, and it is consistent
with transsection via sawing. When I'm doing

378
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:40.279
an anthropological tool mark analysis, I'm
trying to focus on several things. One

379
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:45.079
of them is false starts, also
the distance between the teeth of whatever tool

380
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:50.519
we're using, and then also the
direction of blade, a direction of progress

381
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:53.960
progress of the blade, and also
of the cutting stroke. Sure, so

382
00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:57.680
a false start is just a cut
that did not go through right, that

383
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:01.319
it did not separate the bone completely. One of the reasons why I'm very

384
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:06.519
interested in false starts is because it
gives me a lot of information. The

385
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:09.720
deeper the false start, the more
information I'm going to get about the tool.

386
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:14.640
One of them is the minimum curve. The curve is just a fancy

387
00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:17.880
word for the walls, the walls
of that false start. So the width,

388
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:23.079
the minimum width of that false start
is actually going to give me information

389
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:28.039
about the width of the set of
the blade. If you think about it,

390
00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:31.440
the knife goes through the bone.
So whatever false start I have and

391
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:37.039
whatever width I have is directly correlated
with the width of that blade. And

392
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.720
an example I think maybe you and
I talked about meeting in December, was

393
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:45.039
I talked about cutting down my Christmas
tree and where I pushed this saw through

394
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:46.720
and it got stuck and I pulled
it out. That's a false start.

395
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:52.519
Yes, that is a good example
of a false start. Okay, we're

396
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:58.400
talking a little bit today about breakaway
notches and directions of blade progress. What

397
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:01.079
do we mean by this and what
is this the slide telling us whenever we

398
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:06.559
go all the way down so we
successfully cut whatever we need in two halves,

399
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:09.159
sometimes we're going to get a breakaway
notch or a spur. So a

400
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:14.599
breakaway notch is just simply a projection
of the bone in this case. So

401
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:19.559
that projection is actually very important for
me because it gives me some information.

402
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:24.719
First, it gives me information about
the energy or how much force was used.

403
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:30.559
So we usually try to say the
smaller the breakaway notch or the smaller

404
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:37.519
the breakaway spurs, the less energy. And that's usually related to potentially a

405
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:40.559
handsaw if we are using something with
more energy, right, if we're using

406
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:45.519
a power driven saw, that is
going to give me a bigger breakaway notch.

407
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:47.639
So it gives me a little bit
of information about the type of energy.

408
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:52.079
So let's start talking about mister Alderson
now using all of those tools in

409
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:55.039
our tool belt. In terms of
what we're looking at, Let's talk about

410
00:34:55.039 --> 00:35:00.199
the top certical vertebrae where mister Alderson
appears to have been and beheaded at some

411
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.599
point. Could you talk about what
you were able to observe on that fourth

412
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:07.639
cervical vertebrae. I only included the
fourth cervical vertebrae because that was the only

413
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:09.880
one that actually had dismemberment trauma.
I don't know if you notice on the

414
00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:14.199
other photos, it seems like this
one is a little bit different. The

415
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:17.239
reason for that is because we're missing
the top. So if you can see,

416
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:22.280
most of the inside of the bone
looks very brittle, almost like a

417
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:27.199
sponge. So that is actually the
inside of the bone. Inside of that

418
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:30.079
bone you need almost like a like
a cap. That cap is missing,

419
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:36.119
so that tells me that at some
point there was some transsection or some dissection

420
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:40.119
or dismemberment of that area. False
starts none were identified. One of the

421
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:44.199
reasons for that is because of the
type of bone that we have, it

422
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:49.719
almost looks like a sponge. Those
don't record the characteristics of the tool very

423
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:55.039
well. So usually on more long
bones we will record a better characteristics.

424
00:35:55.239 --> 00:36:00.159
But usually on these what we call
irregular bones, the false starts are not

425
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:05.559
as common. Let's talk about the
left arm or the left humorous. Talk

426
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:07.679
to me about the false starts that
you were able to identify. On this

427
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.719
one. We do have a little
bit more false starts. So we have

428
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:17.039
about eleven cut marks that are consistent
with a false start. Again, you're

429
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:22.719
looking at non uniform striations, right, So those striations are non uniform that

430
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:28.239
is a reciprocating motion with a straight
blade. Because those are actually straight Let's

431
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:30.199
start talking about the legs. Let's
start with the right leg, the right

432
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:36.119
femur. So in the right femur, I actually saw two cut marks which

433
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:39.239
are consistent with false starts. Sure, and just to point out, the

434
00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:43.360
jury is able to actually see them. Those are those red lines on that

435
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:46.119
left picture. Correct, So those
represent times that the saw hit the bone

436
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.360
cut but didn't go all the way
through, and then it was attempted again.

437
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:55.599
That is correct. The left femur. Here, were you able to

438
00:36:55.599 --> 00:37:00.320
observe any false starts? I was. In this case, we were able

439
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:04.960
to see one cut mark, which
is consistent with a false start. This

440
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:08.360
false star was actually very informative.
Remember when I mentioned the deeper the false

441
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:12.480
start, the better, so this
one was quite deep. It gave me

442
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:15.840
information about the width of the blade, which was point zero four, and

443
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:21.119
also told me that there was a
wavy set blade that is usually related to

444
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:25.880
fine tooth hack saw blades. So
this bone was actually cut from back to

445
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:32.880
front, and the cutting stroke is
telling me that the blade entered through the

446
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:37.599
back of the bone and it went
through the front. So anatomically, if

447
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:42.559
a person standing up literally from their
back for yes, when it comes to

448
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.760
mister Halderson and We're going to go
to some more summary slides in a second.

449
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:49.239
But when it comes to the dismemberment
of his head, his arms,

450
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.159
and his legs, were any of
those dismemberments in your view, performed with

451
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:57.199
power saws. No. I would
say at this point, the examination in

452
00:37:57.239 --> 00:38:02.159
the analysis really goes towards a handsaw. Again, we're looking at very inconsistent

453
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:07.800
cuts. We're also looking at destritions. Right, those striations are telling me

454
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:13.079
that there is a straight blade,
it's not a circular blade. In addition

455
00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:15.360
to that, you want to look
at the breakaway spur. That breakaway spur

456
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:19.840
is very important, and they're not
quite they're not very big, which is

457
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:22.559
indicative that there was not a lot
of energy. That's one of the reasons

458
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:25.920
why you know you want to use
a power a power driven saw, right,

459
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:30.920
because you want to have a clean
cut that is consistent and there's a

460
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:35.679
lot of energy there. Right when
you're using your hands, there's not going

461
00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:38.559
to be a lot of energy there. So therefore the breakaway spur is going

462
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:43.639
to be small and the cut is
going to be inconsistent. Because especially in

463
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:46.119
this case, when you're thinking about
the femur, the femur is one of

464
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:50.960
the thickest bones in your body.
So it takes a lot of energy and

465
00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:52.960
a lot of force to cut through
that bone, and you can kind of

466
00:38:53.000 --> 00:39:00.559
see it here on that microscopic view
is it is quite thick. So in

467
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:06.039
this case, I can say that
the class characteristics that I saw on the

468
00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:10.960
elements or on the skal To elements
are consistent with the class characteristic of those

469
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:16.679
two tools that were found at the
site. Sure are all of them consistent

470
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:20.360
with the same tool, or is
are one of them consistent more with one

471
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:23.760
tool than others? Yeah? So, actually the fourth cervical vertebrae seems to

472
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:29.119
be a little bit more consistent with
the broken hacksaw and then the other elements

473
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.679
are right humorous, the left humorous, The right femur, and the left

474
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:38.039
femur are more consistent with the keyhole
or the alway super soare So if we

475
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:43.159
go back a slide, you're saying
the vertebrae and the fourth cervical vertebrae where

476
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.079
the head was removed, consistent with
that image on the right of the broken

477
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:49.800
hacksaw blade, and the limbs consistent
with the all way saw on the left.

478
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:58.920
That is correct Okay, coming up
on the next episode of Tapes from

479
00:39:59.039 --> 00:40:02.559
the Dark Side, move to the
next slide. You found a number of

480
00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:06.519
teeth in that astrap, correct,
I did, all right, So we'll

481
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:12.000
look at some photographs. Just what
are we looking at them? At the

482
00:40:12.119 --> 00:40:15.639
end of this episode, as well
as every episode this season, included a

483
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:20.639
little bit of bonus footage, so
stay tuned till after the credits roll.

484
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:24.199
I'm tz I've been your host today. I want to thank you for listening

485
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Truly, without a listener, there's really

486
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487
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488
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I think we're on episode number nine.

507
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That's a Patreon and Apple Plus exclusive
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508
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509
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514
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You have to remember the show,
Okay. Our new dark Siders this

515
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529
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530
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that incorrectly. By the way,
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531
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:34.239
your name and you'd like it corrected, I'd be happy to do that.

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Tapes from the dark Side pod at
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533
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Thank you Nigel and Kristin Rice.
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540
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six hundred that's two zero six one
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541
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ed. He allowed us to adapt
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542
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:46.800
You can find all of twenty six
hundred's music on Spotify and you can

543
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find his links in our show notes. Thank you to Augusta Trevor Roam,

544
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who created original music for the show
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545
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:04.480
to Trevor Orham's music is also on
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546
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:08.360
links in the show notes as well. Special thank you to Ronnie, who

547
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:15.119
is our medical expert in training who
helped me break down some of the medical

548
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:22.199
examiner's testimony today and real quick,
I want to say, if you can't

549
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afford to donate to the show,
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550
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558
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559
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enough. And thank you to everyone
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560
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:20.760
to you. You're the reason that
four years later, I'm still sitting here

561
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:27.440
talking to you. I'm editing a
new Night Terror for you guys. It'll

562
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:31.719
be up on Patreon right around July
first. I'm excited to share this one

563
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:37.280
with you guys. It's one of
the weirdest stories I've ever read online and

564
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:43.239
it kind of ties in a little
bit to season one and the red Wine

565
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:45.960
story. I'm excited to hear what
you guys will think. It's a weird,

566
00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:52.039
wild one. That's all I have
for you this week. Until next

567
00:47:52.039 --> 00:48:37.320
time, try to enjoy the daylight. I'm trying to get across the street.

568
00:48:39.079 --> 00:48:42.760
They have a little bit more room. They go to wreck once a

569
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:49.960
week except there's no personal cells.
So mm hmm. Yeah, and I

570
00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:53.719
mean you probably have a shower with
people. No, they're private showers or

571
00:48:53.800 --> 00:49:01.719
like the individuals, they're not.
It's not a group shower. So yeah,

572
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:06.800
I'm trying. So it's always the
Oranges that doing black showers. You

573
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:15.920
know, I never saw that.
So they look like metal coffins. Oh

574
00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:25.599
yeah, yeah, orange is just
been blacks. It's like falls and then

575
00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:30.920
like but there's like classic in the
Seen Them I think, and then the

576
00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:36.840
Curtains of Prep two. But in
the movie Gothica they all just stand under

577
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:47.440
shower heads all naked. Mhm.
Yes, yeah, that's that's not here.

578
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:53.039
Yeah. Oh they get them at
all the prisons as group showers.

579
00:49:53.079 --> 00:50:00.039
They're not individual oh in the prison. Yeah, I guess trying. I

580
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:15.679
have to go to prison. Yeah
m hm. So Kristen, was that

581
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:22.400
I said kiss me? Then I
made a kissie sound. I found that

582
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:27.079
old video. You come in and
I'll try to be aggressively kissing your camera.

583
00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:37.360
I know I wanted it, all
right, Yeah you counted to me

584
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:40.000
because you had to do it,
but I wanted it, and so I

585
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:45.199
hold it to my forehead and I
pretend you're kissing level with him, and

586
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:49.920
this is why kat has a therapist. Now, yeah, it really is

587
00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:57.519
fun. M hm. Hopefully they
can get you someone. Yeah, I'm

588
00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:01.159
just something to talk to you.
I suppose that would be nice. I

589
00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:06.800
mean, can you not talk to
Katie you're investigating. They're really busy.

590
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:12.320
I don't really want to bother them. M hm. I'm sure she wouldn't

591
00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:17.000
you give them more insight on me
as a person. They don't have to

592
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:22.840
proof, or they don't really need
to know I'm a good person or not.

593
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:27.480
They just said that do their job. I suppose. I don't really

594
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:34.440
think they're interested in my character.
M hm. Try to do it as

595
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:44.079
well as they can at their job. Yeah. Yeah, well I'm sure

596
00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:55.599
they still care about you, hopefully. Yeah. Tony Do is a good

597
00:51:55.880 --> 00:52:02.800
lawyer from what I've heard, h
h its Goal. I've heard people told

598
00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:07.639
me she's pretty good. I actually
haven't heard anything about her from anyone in

599
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:12.440
here. Everyone's seen me with her
on TV, but I know the younger

600
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:21.719
one, Crystal Vera. Oh yeah, I haven't seen class. I've heard

601
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:30.480
from other inmates about her in passing. Oh just Crystal. Yeah. No,

602
00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:37.800
one actually really knows about uh,
freak. Yeah. Yeah, she

603
00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:42.760
had a pretty big case in like
two thousand and five or sometime. Huge.

604
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:46.280
I guess it's find down a bit. Oh, she's like a manager,

605
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:53.480
so she's probably really busy with other
managerial things, m overseeing all the

606
00:52:53.639 --> 00:53:00.039
dreams Cuthy that she was a top
dollar I guess. Yeah. Hopefully they

607
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:12.239
can get my message out. Mm
hmm. There's a bunch of pencil writing

608
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:17.840
right in front of where I where
I stand and call mm hmm, what

609
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:25.280
I would say, fear coat.
It's a q O t h f A

610
00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:34.760
no f A I r q O
t H fair quest a I r q

611
00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:42.199
U p h q O t H
no use o t H fair calls.

612
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:45.519
I don't know. I don't know. I've never seen a Q without a

613
00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:52.320
U behind it. Mm hmm.
I'll just say square, but that's wrong.

614
00:53:54.039 --> 00:54:00.760
Could be quote or quail, but
those have views name. Well,

615
00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:13.159
it's going to be a mystery.
Oh m hm, let mess you let

616
00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:17.599
me see you. I'm trying to
think of an idea to draw for you

617
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:22.840
because I haven't. I don't have
any new drawings to send. Mm hmmm.

618
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:28.000
It's coming week, you know,
A awsome dogs dogs I can't try

619
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:31.920
a thing like animals. Maybe I
can. I'll do my best. Okay,

620
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:40.559
okay, draw like was a easy
tebocket and muffins. Yesterday was the

621
00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:47.320
anniversary of us getting Muffin. By
the way, Oh happy, she's well,

622
00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:52.639
happy birthday to Muffin late birthday a
month ago. Yeah, that's totally

623
00:54:52.840 --> 00:55:04.960
but I'm sure she didn't. H
still cringey. I remember when she's asleep

624
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:09.239
on me. Yeah, when she
was really tinny. I think pictures pop

625
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:15.440
up in my snapchat memories of her
sleeping on me. Oh gosh, when

626
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:21.840
she was drooling where she was my
eater. She really thought she was a

627
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:28.199
toy. I think she really thought
she was food. And then I gave

628
00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:35.719
her a bones for Christmas. Did
you hear about Rise's heritage results, Yeah,

629
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:40.559
I wanted some border collie. I
was with you. Oh yeah,

630
00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:45.400
her family tree is a reef.
That's just not true. She's too small

631
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:52.440
to be an actual border guy.
I mean she could be like just really

632
00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:55.800
impressed, you know what I mean. That's why I said her family tree

633
00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:01.400
is a wreath. Mm hmm,
okay, okay, yeah, a circle.

634
00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:09.400
It's like I feel like she was
probably like inbread and then like just

635
00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:14.320
the once of the letter or something. M yeah, that could be.

636
00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:22.960
She's also super fair, so like
you just gotta learn picked up traits from

637
00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:34.320
a Yeah, mm hmm. I
watched Birds We're hitting. I watched Birds

638
00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:40.320
of Prey and Harley Quinn has a
hyena. Mm hmm, it's pretty cool.

639
00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:46.920
Yeah, I didn't see Birds will
pray. We'll have to watch.

640
00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:59.079
It's okay. It's on the calls
for like twenty nine minutes. I'm just

641
00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:02.559
giving you a couple of minutes warning
because I don't know officially. When we

642
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:07.599
started the call, I thought we
were doing a ten minute and I realized

643
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:12.239
it's been longer than ten minutes,
hasn't it. Yeah, it's okay,

644
00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:15.760
it's not It's not a lot of
money. Just in case. I hope

645
00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:19.119
you have a great day. I
love you, have a good lunch.

646
00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:25.079
Should throughout the day yet? Should
I message you throughout the day still?

647
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:32.800
Or is this messaging? It's the
car light of Monday? Yeah, me

648
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:42.920
too. And the pictures mhm.
Then in the pictures, yeah, I'm

649
00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:46.400
still gonna find them. We had
to rush back and so I kind of

650
00:57:46.599 --> 00:57:52.159
through everything. Mm hmm. You
like I've unpacked, but it's most even

651
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:59.000
like my tots and bins and like
fags. Oh yeah, I got I

652
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:01.239
haven't yeah, I haven't been able
to go through my apartments of stuff.

653
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:12.400
That's all right, you take your
time. Mm hmm mm hmmm. A

654
00:58:12.760 --> 00:58:15.440
dark side Scott