S11, Chapter 20: She Posed as a Romantic Interest (Interview w/ Lisa G)

0:04 Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion is advised. He would call me, you know, once or twice a week when he would get his free calls. I knew not to he won't talk on the recording. That's why I made That's why I visited him in person. The first day I sat down with him, he said, I hope you know I won't hurt you and I won't kill you. I think everyone has a bit of a fascination with the dark side.

0:50 I myself, Wallis love the dark side as well. I think it's something that everyone secretly longs for. Alves was like six months into it. He's like, oh, I love you. I went and visited him in person and he has he admitted to me that he did do it. The Darks Darks Darks. In the last episode, I talked about how I found a forum through the website Read It where I put out an open call to interview anyone associated with the Chandler Halderson case and I got no replies except for a couple of Chandler's ex romantic interests who eventually backed out. Well, that's until I was contacted by a woman named Lisa g. On August twenty second, twenty twenty four, she messaged.

1:57 Me, hey. I responded, and Chandler Alderson's read it. I'm willing to interview, not for fame or profit, just to say what I learned over two years was diced on this sub before too. Here's some proof. She sent me a variety of screenshots and a picture of her and Chandler Holderson. We began conversation, she messaged me back. I haven't spoke out previously because I was getting death threats to my Facebook and Instagram and I was doxsed. I've seen what people thought of me and didn't know how to address it or it would have blown my cover. To him, I see there's someone sharing letters. I do believe it was one of his celli's. He's in the same unit as Chris Watts as well. I had blocked Chandler a while back. Oh no, I was never in love.

2:47 It was a ruse for my thesis project. It had to be a current case, and back then his trial was fresh in my mind. I'm a trial nerd. She does have other women, I believe writing him and ment to I do have information and I'm willing to do an interview with you. I'd like to put out what I know and found out and clear my name. Thank you for reaching me. Appreciate it too. When I finally got Lisa on the phone, we talked for nearly an hour and a half, and I have to say it was a rather strange interview. It might have been the connection, and there really is a very good chance of that, but it often felt like I couldn't get a question out before Lisa would respond. That could also be the result of being nervous, which I could understand. But at the end of the day, Lisa provided some fascinating information on Chandler. She even discusses how he confessed to her the crime. This interview left me with as many answers as questions. I wanted to know if I could read a copy of Lisa's thesis. I had questions about the romance, the fake romance that she had with Chandler. I wanted to know more about police sending her into interview rooms to interview potential suspects. And I've already reached out to Lisa. Her number change, but I've now got her new number and I'm trying to see if maybe she'd be willing to do a short follow up interview, but for now, let's start at the

4:18 beginning my conversation with Lisa g Okay. So, do you remember the first time you heard about the Chandler case? Was it during I think the trial? I got an email from Court TV about an upcoming trial coming up in January, and that was for his trial. So I had already been watching trials, and so I saw it was a parasite and so I'm like, oh, I'm going to have to watch. So I watched every single day of the trial. Oh wow, you watched it live? Well. I got the email probably in December from court TV and my email like it was before Christmas time, I remember, and then his trials started on that January.

5:00 Watch it all lot? Was what was happening? I watched a lot of those. It was happening. Yes, wow? And then like, what took it to the next level? You were going in doing that? I was actually in the yes, yes, I was doing a thesis paper and it had to be on a current trial or current case. It was actually six weeks of. Work and parts of this paper and his trial had just ended, but he hadn't been a sentence yet, And since that was so fresh in my head and I watched everything, I did use his case as for my THESS, and part of the thesis was the evidence. So I had toally be able to pick one.

5:40 So I used the fireplace, and I had to go into the THESS and kind of like break it down, explain it into like psychology terms with the criminal justice and kind of say, like why it could only have been him? Can you talk a little bit more about the fireplace as far as you said you had to pick one? Yes, so there's one piece of evidence. So I used the fireplace because during the trial it stuck out to me and I was the forensic expert broke down the like just how it all came to being caught, like the bone being in the fireplace with the you know, I kind of know a little bit more, but the fireplace. The forensic expert, she broke that down really well. So was able to piggyback off what I've learned in school and then be able to use what she said and then utilize what I learned so from the trial, which was the parts of the ash the pieces going down to the ash trap through to the basement, of the fireplace in those little pieces of evidence, and like all those all those different pieces of evidence being in there, it's just in that one alone evidence is just already.

6:56 You know, without other evidence of like the. Luminol and the basement and all the other stuff going on. That was what stood out to me the most when I watched the trial, So I used that fireplace, and that expert witness was really well first on her knowledge. That's so interesting you you mentioned that, because that's the exact point we are in our coverage where actually the next episode is going to be ashes Dashes. We're going into the ash trap and exam, you know. Listening to Christina Figueroa, so I know, I remember her name listening to her footage so much in the last few days.

7:37 But yeah, she does such an excellent job of explaining it in you know, understandable terms. Especially for somebody who's not in school like me. So let's I think she explains it very well for people who was just like regular people who watch trial. Since I watched it, since I am did get a degree and I do this for a degree, I just you know, I've been watching it kind of understood it. She was saying, but I feel like she really breaks it down for the public very well. Yeah, absolutely, Okay, so the paper, it was like a component of the paper. Yeah, so I needed to eat. That was for my graduation. So part of the paper when I was writing it was I decided I would try to reach out to Chandler.

8:22 And when I decided to reach out, I kept going back and forth in my head if I should or not. But because my detectives have utilized me to get information in the past, I thought what harm could it do. I didn't realize that the public and stuff was going to actually find my name and put my name out there and make it more to assume things. So I sent, I wrote him, and I wrote him first April fifteenth, at twenty twenty two. I didn't graduate until May, and so that was I needed to do that as part of my graduation processing. So I wrote him on the text behind because there at Dodge they cannot receive like mail.

9:03 You have to send it through a third party, and I didn't know if I would hear from him. I did not hear from him right away. I remember it was around. Easter weekend and I sent a second like little thing just kind of like, hey, you know, I don't know if you want to talk, but here's my phone number. I figured if another and make got my information or someone, I could just block the prison or call. And have them block me or something. So I received a call in the next following probably that weekend Saturday Sunday in April twenty twenty two, and it was from Dodge Correctional and it was the ICs Solutions and it was Chandler calling me. It's so when you call, it's like press press five and you can block people and stuff like that. So I was really nervous because I was like, oh gosh, I don't know what I was supposed to say, beause I didn't really know if he was going to contact me back, especially being like that kind of I've never reached out to someone on my own and like that I've seen on TV or like trial. It's always been like my cases are like local Novada cases, so they've really not I've never had to be in the public, so I just didn't really because I've been into been watching trials and everything.

10:12 I just you know, kind. Of utilize how I how the detectives had trained me to speak. When I speak to suspects, and so I started off and I was very He did question me for the first couple times of calling me. He asked me on the first call, oh are you trying to do? Because I said I was in criminal justice, like I was finishing my degree. He asked me if I was going to be what did he say? Criminal minds. I've not personally watched that Netflix show, however, that's where it ties in. A lot of the things that he tried to do to hide this crime was based off television shows and off of what he saw. I'm like, well, I've never seen that show. I do know that obviously that's kind of like serial killer profile type thing. But I couldn't let him know this kind of stuff. So I was like, oh no, I was just reaching out, you know, I watched your child and I kind of kept it like very like that. So he would call me, you know, once or twice a week when he would get his free calls, and then he would start.

11:14 He started. I didn't give him my address right away, but I did give him my address, and he would send me letters here and there. He can send letters, but like I said, I have to send it through either electronic communication or to the third party, which is still get sent to Dodge and they. Printed out for him. In the beginning, when I wrote him, other people were writing him, so he was getting a lot of hate letters, he was getting fan letters, he was getting like just people, just like random stuff. In the beginning, he did lie to me. He told me nobody else was talking to him and stuff like that, and that this comes into play because it's going to come into his psychology. So in the beginning, yeah, we were just friends, and like I talked to him like as I was just his friend and didn't try to get information from him because I knew he wasn't going to say anything over anything.

12:03 He is trying to appeal and he does hopefully he thinks he will get out and thinks hopefully one day there's gonna be a legislation change in this and all this stuff. So I knew not to he won't talk on the recording. That's why I made That's why I visited him in person. So I just started doing like the little zoom they had, like free zoom visits. I go on here and there and go visit with him again. Very just very basic stuff. He told me how he grew up. He told me a lot of stuff, like about his family vacations, Bob Bart and Christa, about Mitch, about his grandma. Another thing is it was always positive stuff.

12:48 I never heard anything. He was never abused. We're into Chandler. Mitchell had good grades in school, and he used to give his brother rides to him from school because he didn't like to drive Mitch, and that's this is allegedly from him. So, but they were brothers and they did go on family vacations. He talked to me about going to Florida with his dad and brother, and Krista was there too, But they went out to Florida every like glades and what gator hunting and stuff like that. He was in Boy Scouts and then he went to Eagle Scouts and he was on the swim team in high school. Those three things are true. Now, as far as him being on a shooting team or anything else that was being sent in some of the other stuff, he's never brought that up to me.

13:33 I do know those three things are true. He felt out that his family because Mitche did well in school and he did. Not do as well in school. His grades were not a's and b's so he felt that his parents kept wanting His parents wanted him to, like, you know, elevate himself and do better. According to him, Bart and Christa couldn't understand why he was different than his brother, why he didn't get the same grades. Don't I think in his head he. Felt there was some type of competition or he they were trying to make him be like his brothers. How I felt like I got from him, and so he every memory he said was positive. His grandma all right. Now, the court has no contact. He's not allowed to contact any of his family and they're not allowed to contact him.

14:22 He has had some contact with his grandma on Bart's side, but he I know, yes, it's only through the social worker, and the grandma still will not help him and basically just wanted to make sure he was all right in there. And I don't think he has hied from her since like last Christmas or December of twenty twenty three. Social Yeah, it's. A legal order of if you go in the Department of if you go on the West Wisconsin courts, you can also see it's on there. So people always assume that maybe it's wonder if his family can contact him. They can't. Even if Mitch wants to contact him, they're not allowed to. It has to go through his social worker at Dodge.

15:03 So his grandma is Mitch has never and Mitch has never reached out, right, So if they really wanted to, he could try to reach out, go through the social worker and has to be approved. Then he writes the letter to his grandma, gives it to the social worker. She has to review it, and then send it to his grandma. So this is like an extra step where when he sends me the letter, he just given it to the CEO. So I thought it's because there are victims of the crime as well. So that is why he's not allowed to have contact and they cannot have contact with. Him either, right, Yeah, when I talked to I don't know if oh yeah, I think you saw on Reddit there was a guy who was his bunk mate, and I know what that is. He did an interview with me, and he didn't come right on and say it, but he seemed to imply that yeah, And it wasn't like a direct. He really didn't want to talk about it, so I didn't press him on it, but he did at one point seemed to imply that Chandler wanted his defense team to put forth the defense that Mitch had committed the murder and that's why he wasn't guilty. Did you ever get the sense of anything like that.

16:20 I'll be honest. I went and visited him in person, and he has he admitted to me that he did do it. He told me it was them or it was them or him. Mitch wasn't even around. He's never brought up Mitch at all our blaming it. He told me that the defense that he wanted was like more of a self defense he he wants he's trying to He tried to play it to me. The evidence says otherwise. But I kind of know what kind of happened from what he had told me, and bushing his dad in the basement and pushing his mom as she walked in the front door. That's why there's drywall missing. Before all this happened, he told me his father and him were renovating the so he knew already how to do a lot of handy work, a lot of stuff from the Boy Scouts and Eagle Scouts and a lot of things that dad showed him. So their basement wasn't all the way finished at the time of the crime, and so he tried to spin it to me, is it more of like it was? That's why he said, I don't want my grandma, she's ninety, coming to see me here.

17:22 And this was in person. I talked to him. He said, because she's going to wonder what happened, and he's afraid if he told her she was going to tell the cops that like, well what really happened, which is what. He told me. Well, why don't we rewind real quick and just go back to that first visit when you went to see him in person? Today I want to share with you guys websites. The person who created this website is actually a supporter of Tapes from the Dark Side on Patreon, and the website is open class action dot com. Have you ever wished that there was a way that you could just spend a couple minutes online and make a few extra dollars. I've had that feeling before when I'm waiting for a piece of audio to render an export and I have a few minutes to burn and I really don't know what to do with the time. Well, here's a way to earn a couple dollars and no strings attached. If you qualify for a claim, you can forget about it and then in a few months you might get some cash in the mail. I'm actually going to try this out again. The website is openclassactions dot Com.

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20:00 I went out on a Monday. I flew from Vegas to Wisconsin on September twenty sixth, twenty twenty two, and I went to Dodge that day and I went the next day as well, So each time was three hours. It's a little scary because I never had to go into a person like that before. Plus Dodge, obviously, I saw Chris Watts case and so I was like, Oh, I can't believe I'm even going into this prison right now. Whoever, like who. Walks into who will and Lee Gos walks into a prison. But the visiting always starts that you have to be there by three fifteen, so you have to be fifteen minutes early. So I park it around three and then that cuts into your visit time. So in the visitors room, you go in, you go through the metal detector. They give you a little stamp you go through and out and there's a lot of barricade electronic gates. Then you go to the visitors center and they have to go get him, and so you sit at this like I want.

20:53 To call it kindergarten table. It's very little table, and he sits across and I sit there. He's not allowed to get up during the whole business, so I would have to get up. So if I want to get a soda, I would get up to get the soda type thing. So that's when we were able to talk. He was very cautious of cameras because both days they set us by the camera. So in the visitors room there's cameras on the ceilings, but some of the visitors tables are lacking a camera above it, but the tables they put us at or that. Now this comes into play because he had is on medicine through the prison for paranoid delusions, so he takes medication and he takes other medicine that kind of numbs him out. So he I feel like he was very kind of paranoid that so he'd be whispering things to me, and that's when he was telling me about the day of like everything going down. So I felt a little nervous going in there, and I didn't know what to expect. Like I gave him like a brief like hug, You're only allowed like a couple of seconds, you know, to have contact type thing.

22:01 And so. The first day was a little awkward silence here and there because I didn't want to bring up anything and like try to badger him with questions. So it was more on the second day is when I was able. Because I was able to, I didn't even ask. He kind of was just giving me the information. And this is before his u This is when he was still with his working on his appeal. Before that they they had filed the no merit. So he kept thinking he was gonna he's going to get out and he was going to get a new trial and show that this was self defense. That's what his end goal was. His end goal is to try to get a new trial. So he talked to me about Mitch. He told me they they played video games together, like they did online gaming together, but they were not close in their adult life.

22:50 He kind of gave me, He told me he was isolating himself and that the whole reason is he started lying and then he kept lying and lying, and. He couldn't get himself out of any of those lies. Now, what he applied to me was that cat his ex girlfriend and knew more at the end, not of. What happened that time. He did that himself, but that she knew when she was cleaning up on her stuffs. Now this is allegedly, and that's from him. I don't want to, you know, put anything or accuse anybody, but that was kind of what his defense or what he was telling me is. And then I told him, well, you know they she offered the phone this this so like she probably if if anybody, you know, I'm sure she probably signed a paper. Also, the friend that gave him the gun, he also said the friend did not know that that and that he did not give him that gun. He bought the gun from him with cash. He also told me chambler that he was I don't believe the story he told me.

23:47 I don't know if it's true enough. Allegedly he told me how he was getting his money leading up to this, a couple months before this all went down, and he was running guns and weapons through to Mexico. I don't know if that's even true. Like I said, this guy is a like, very big like he believes some of it. I don't even think he believes his own lies. When I've caught him in lies and when he's confronted, he gets very angry, and then he actually has to he actually admits to it, so he I don't feel like he believes his own lie. He knows what he's doing. He's very covert, narcissistic. He very is like I'm the victim, I'm insecure, but he doesn't actually feel that way when he would call me and talk to me about his He has a job, so he worked in the kitchen for a little bit and then he worked at the dental office, so.

24:38 They have to have a job there. He only makes twenty one dollars a month, so they don't make very good money there, but he is able to buy whatever he needs because of working facility. At the dodge there. The classification is a little different, so there is a few family murderers in there. So like Chris Watts and him are in the same unit. Chris Wats is more of a protective custody. However, he has worked out with Chris Watson and they know about me, so Chris Wats will be like, oh, Lisa this and they knew my name, which kind of scared me because Chris Watts's mom goes on Reddit and because Redda had found me, it kind of spread throughout that prison, which made him look good, is what he told me, because now they think he's like talking to someone and everybody just made this assumption about me from that.

25:26 Speaking to him, he. Would say like, oh if I oh, they were telling me I didn't do this right today, but I did it all right, and I'm the best person at I'm the best one working there in this kitchen would fall apart if I wasn't working the value. That's exactly how he would talk. Can you think of an example of you said you catch him in a lie and he would kind of react in a particular way. Yes. So when his forty eight Hours episode was going to air, he asked me if I saw any preview about his case and I was like, no, I don't. I didn't see anything, Like why And he started kind of like on the phone, starting to get nervous sounding and started kind of getting angry, and I'm like, why are you getting angry?

26:11 I don't understand. He's like, well, I need to tell you. I need to tell you before airs. I'm like, well, what he's like, don't watch it, don't watch of course I watched it. He's like, they're going to interview all these my exes and they're going to say all this bad stuff about me. He admitted to me in person. I went to visit those days that he did cheat on all his girlfriends. He cheated on like Cat. He told me the story about how the girl that has been on Reddit, she and Kat I think knew each other were friends in some sort of way, and she had been sick, and so Kat and Chandler had went to visit her and that's how they started talking type of thing. But he had been He told me I wouldn't ever do that, though I would, I don't cheat.

26:52 So he's like, oh, well, I need to tell you something. I'm like what he says. I've actually been getting fan mail and people have been sending me money gifts. He told me this whole time that he's been alone like that, he didn't have anybody helping him, and so he thought that The forty eight Hours was going to actually have like more people on there when it aired. I guess he did see that it was. He said that that one aunt he hadn't seen in a decade, and his roommate. He'd told me those roommates didn't know anything I was doing because they were at the place at different times. But then he didn't. He told me he was like talking to others. He's talking to women. He was getting stuff from like other men, and he was getting all of his things paid for.

27:39 That was in there. But before all this, he would tell me that, you know, he know I was the only one. He didn't know if he would be so alone if I if he didn't if he couldn't. Call me, which ended up being false. And a lot of stuff. Yeah, So he'd send me home like made cards, and I have one, and so he would in that. I asked him, how do you know how to word these things? And he told me in the prison library there's books of poetry and poems and other ways of wording. He's also told me that he his whole life has mimicked other people's emotions and how other people behave, and so like here's one. So he says, Lisa, another year with you is another year with a full heart and a huge smile. I hope you have a great Easter and eat all the candy.

28:30 Read from him, so probably from a prison book. But yeah, so he did lie about he has lied. I don't even know who else he talks to, but yeah, he's I'm sure he's still. He's been still sending me letters here and there as I have him blocked and I haven't been talking to him for months and months and months, and he sends me angry letters. The only emotion I've ever got from him is anger or anger agree and he he and then every time I have. Yeah, the anger kind of start coming out towards you.

29:14 It started around the forty eight Hours episode, so he was because it hadn't even aired yet, it was going to air. And that's when he started telling me that he had other girls. I had a lot of other girls writing him. They were sending him money, buying him stuff, buying his canteen, like property packages and things like this. He thought that they were going to. Be on the forty hours and forty Hours was going to expose him and he was gonna and I wasn't gonna talk to him, so he had no he had no choice but to tell me. But then it never happened like that. So then I we. Didn't talk, like I was answering his calls here and there, and then he would be very apologetic, I'm sorry, oh this, this, this, like I'm not I'm not going to talk to anybody.

29:56 Da da da, So. That that's not true, because I have a recent one for about a month or so ago that he does say he's talking back with the same growth who was writing him a long time before this three hours. Episode ever aired. So when he thought he was going to get exposed, his only time he ever tells the truth, and then he tries to be play like, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it, I'm sorry, I won't do it again. So you got the sense that he was kind of in your communication. He was always kind of running a road honest. Yeah, he was always running a romance kind of game with me, and I already knew that right away. So he would not ask me for money or anything like he doesn't come out for us and asks you. He won't be like, oh, can I have money, He'll do it in a way like, oh, my shoes have a hole in it and I can't get any shoes. Like he'll he'll play off a sympathy type thing, and that's why people need to be leary and careful of him.

30:53 I already had known, although I'm empathetic and an empathetic person, I already knew what he was trying to run game on me. And more so it was kind of like, since he was calling me here and there, I didn't know how to break that contact. Besides this completely block and kind of ghost him, which has angered him now because he doesn't let it go, like he won't well, he doesn't leave it be. So he very much is a very smooth talker, very that's what I'm saying. The covert narcissism. He he will play off it like he's insecure and but he's not. And he does it in a very manipulative way. Where I've dealt with other narcissist who are grandiose or you can tell that they're very cocky in that from the outright, his is hidden and then he has the pathological line in there, and then he's and then very manipulative because he would have he would even you know, have like write letters or draw do drawings or paintings for other inmates and they would send that to girls to like run game on.

31:56 Other girls that are in there. Oh wow, So his side is like the family murderer side and then they have like their little like other side. But like we took our picture together that I shared with you, the inmate that he was in there for killing his father, and so I had to keep like a poker face because I was like, my energy is being mixed around all this now these and when it's like not mutually exclusive, I find that out, especially even when I've gone to talk to suspects in my local cases. A person can still have like their human side and show you who they are and you wouldn't probably know they did something, But then they are have the evil to them inside, and that's how he is, and that's how a few of them are.

32:42 When I was in the prison like interacting, so I. Feel like, yeah, it's not it's like I think everybody thinks like, oh, you're gonna realize this person is a cycle or they have a certain look or a certain way they act, and I don't find that to be true. They can act just choking and laughing and you wouldn't know if he walked past them on your daily life. And that's what's really creepy and scary about it too. Very much like social chameleons, they're able to blend in. Yeah, how many times. It was very hard for me to be in person because every time I was looking at his hands, I kept thinking about him dismembering his parents. So it was very hard for me to try to like to like play it off. But yeah, so he gad a lot of weights.

33:31 He's like one ninety now because of the prison food and all that. And he telled me that because he was pretending to work and all that kinds of school, he actually was playing the video game in isolating himself in his room. He wouldn't eat, So I think when he was arrested me he was like one thirty five or something around there. So he's pretty tall. He's probably about six foot. I'm very tying in like five to two. So there is a credit like a pretty big size difference. And when I the first day I sat down with him, he said, I hope you know I won't hurt you and I won't kill you. He said that to me, Oh, well, one of the first. Yes, and so that kind.

34:13 Of alerted me because I'm like, wait, what is like that's just a weird thing for someone to say, and so I just was like, oh, okay, Like, well, no, you're not going to or kill me because you're in prisoned. So was he handcuffed when you talked with. No, he's there. They're not handcuffed. So they come in and they have a little like station where they have to have strip search, and they come into the visiting room and they're allowed to just walk up to the table, but they're not allowed to get up. The whole time. There's guards always constantly around and like walking around all the time. Like I said, ours was always under kind of like a camera, so I know he wasn't. He's very very very reserved and quiet, so you wouldn't know he even he even like if you didn't know the crime he did, you you wouldn't even guess that he did that. He was polite in person, and he's he's always put on the mimicking. And that's when he started telling me he's always watched shows, lots of shows, alien shows, which ties into the using the foil on the phones, very into aliens, very into sci fi shows. He has watched some of the true crime stuff and some of the fiction shows which kind of like the criminal minds with like like FBI and have that, the fictional show.

35:33 So he's getting his stuff from you know, these TV shows. And he told me that's how he learned to be, how he learned to behave was to mimic other people. He's very robotic and you can it's like he does not his void of feelings unless he does have his angry side. Otherwise he's very very reserved, flat toned, and kind of just like the way he talked. I did go and listened to some recordings that were out with Kat and him and the mother, and the way he talked to them is the same way he talked to me. Oh, how you doing today? Oh I'm gonna be fine. Oh it's this.

36:14 He's never been upset, He's never showed any remorse. He's never said he regrets it. He told me he didn't regret anything. When his household. I did tell him, you know, your house is for sale and it's and it's sold. I saw it on Reddit. And then he said, well, I hope Mitch gets that money for it. That's all. He never brings up Mitch or anything. And he just said he just very void of any type of emotion or feeling of anything he's done. One of the. Mitch he didn't. He didn't seem resentful. He's very flat when he said it, like I hope he gets the money from the house, he said, I guess, I admit I would. He's probably married by now. I think that was like with the time. I think I think Mitch was just had a fiance and they hadn't gotten married yet, and so I didn't feel like any there was any resentment in that moment of that and just kind of like and that's the time he brought up about his grandma, like I don't want my nine year old grandma coming to prison, And he was more so didn't want his family coming there because he thinks they're going to ask why, and then they're going to go tell and he's going to ruin his appeal. I don't know if he'll ever get out. Yeah, And I don't know if he ever will or want to ever talk to Mitch. He's never even brought up the fact of even missing any of his family or Mitch or anybody.

37:36 His dogs is the only thing he says he misses or bring up that he missed is his dogs. His two dogs in his mind when he tells me, unless I bring her up, he never thinks about her, and he doesn't care about her, and he never thinks about her. He recently just said that when I had like try keys, he had trying to write me letters, and I told him he needs to start taking accountabilities for his actions and what he's done to everybody else, including like. Me, because you know he's not. He's not. He doesn't take any accountability. He doesn't care. It doesn't seem like he even cared. He gave me, like I said. He to me said that she knew what was going on during the cleanup and afterwards that part of the reason why he did what he did was because he needed the life insurance money so that he could provide her the house and all they that in Florida.

38:33 Right when he did the fall and hurt his neck. He did tell me that he went he met with them, and he went to dinner. So he feels if his cat and her mother backstabbed him, that they that they shouldn't have went to Core and they should have had his back, and that they should have defended him, and that they He also did lie to me because I found out recently when I was listening to some of those recordings, isn't he doesn't know that. I realized this now, but he had told me they stopped talking to him months and months before they actually really did stop talking to him. He told me they never helped him when he was in there in County, and obviously that was not true. So it's very manipulative, very like he's the victim all the time.

39:17 How many times did you go to see him? And when did he was it on the first meeting that he started talking about? Second time and on September twenty seventh, twenty twenty two. I've talked to him like on the phone and stuff like visiting. Obviously I'm on the list and all that. I he kept wanting me to go back in person, but I just didn't go. I didn't want to go back, honestly, so I kind of was just, Oh, it's not the right time. All I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and it's kind of like, yeah, I just got stuck in this situation like where like sometimes I wouldn't answer his calls, and sometimes I would if I didn't answer his calls, and the times that I did, he keeps calling over and over, and so I eventually had to end up blocking him from calling my phone. He also spoke to me about very resentful towards his parents. He said how they wouldn't help him, so they wouldn't give him money, and his dad is very frugal and they christa helicopter mom and she was always in his business or going into his room. He told me that they did not let him so he couldn't have a car, so up until he did what he did, which was used as evidence in the trial, because I could think he was driving his dad's super rue, which was something very rare.

40:25 He didn't even have a car. It was cat doing everything for him. And that's why I don't believe him about him going to Mexico or all that, and that he had his own money like he said to me, because he was asking her for like five dollars, so I don't believe that. So in person, he told me his parents would not give him any money. They wanted him out of the house. He believed that his dad. He didn't know until the discovery came out that there was never actually an interview with the college. So when Bart told him, we need to go to the college. We're going to see what's going on. You know, I have a meeting at the college. That is why he laid wait and ambush his father in the basement, because he told me he thought he was going to get forced to go in the car and that he was going to go to the college and then his whole lid was going to get blown on this lie. And that is also why he unplugged the computer. He's very watched a lot of stuff, so he thinks everything is listening to him. So he thinks your computer is listening to you or your software.

41:23 Even before he did the crime, he was in that paranoid mindset. So he's been in a paranoid mindset and because of his lies. So he told me he was trying to back out of the lie. So when he he said he did kind of fall down the stairs and did have a little bit like kind of did hurt himself. He did trip on the dog. He just exaggerated it more to get out of I'm. I can't go work at SpaceX. I need to get out of this with Kat and her family and so they when he told me, they go to Buffalo Wild Wings for the Tuesday Wings Special every Tuesday, and so he told them there and that's he told me that he never asked to live there. The mom at him. But again he's going to make himself be the victim. But he was trying to get somewhere to stay because he already kind of had he he was trying to get himself out of these lies because he's like to him, he had been lying. So he was lying about his job, he was lying about going to college, and then he was just lying about everything and he didn't He told me he didn't want to lose the roof over his head with his parents, and he felt that they would kick him out and he was going to be homeless. So instead of him just being know an adult and trying to actually get a job or tell his parents or like say the truth, he took it to the extreme level because he just thought all of his lives are going to be exposed.

42:39 And that is what he told me, So he admitted to the ambush approach of it. We'll be right back after a quick ad. If you want to skip the ads, then consider joining us on Patreon. For the next twenty four hours, we're offering thirty three percent off your first month or your first year of membership. That's thirty three percent off. Use code darker at checkout, or it should apply automatically, but if it asks for a code, use code darker. That's Patreon dot com slash tapes from the Dark Side. We'll be right back after a quick ad break.

43:23 Thank you to everyone who supports the show. He admitted to the ambush approach on his dad, but he also had this idea of like a self defense. Can you how did he explain that? Do you remember? So that day that they were supposed to go, I think goes around like three pm or so. He said that his dad was trying to find him and calling out for him, looking for him, and he already had the rifles. So he told the reason he had his vase hidden is because his family doesn't even agree. They didn't want him smoking or vaping in the house, so he was hiding the vape in the parts of the vape in the wall with that gun because he told me his family was very liberal and they wouldn't be okay.

44:11 They weren't okay with the vaping, and they were not okay with having a gun in the house, so they didn't even know about that gun. So it was already in the position of that. So he had that night before when he was texting Cat, his mind was already spinning. He told me that he needed to do something. Because he overheard Bart and Chris are talking and them saying Bart like heaching on that this is really what's going on. He's like didn't finish school and they were kind of questioning, like why why didn't he just tell them? And he overheard a conversation. That's when he texts Cat like, I think that he said something about like his life's fucked up or something like something like that. And so his head already started spinning.

44:53 And so when she left for work and he was home and his dad told him they had that meeting, he believed there was a meet and I think that his dad is probably just going to confront him, ask him what's going on. That's why he asked his mom. He delayed his mom's time coming home with the soda because he was lying in wait, because he told me his dad was looking for him, and because the basement still was not finished. There's a little side room they're like kind of off to the back where you can lay and like stand in and he can come out, and his dad walked down to find him. He just put the gun to his dad's back and shot him, so to him, So his dad never really confronted him, but he wanted. To spin it like that.

45:34 In his head, he's self defending himself because they're gonna find his lives and they're gonna kick him out. And then he told me when his mom came home after she came home at five something, he ambushed her when she came in the front door, and then he brought her down. To the basement, wow and shut. He ambushed her. And then that is. Why there's the pieces of drywall missing, he told me, because he had to cut the blood evidence out of the wall. And he also told me it was over a few days. That's why he wasn't seeing cats. He didn't just do this like dump their bodies in one trip. He told me. He took extra trips in the day and at night to different rivers in Wisconsin.

46:16 To cover it up. And that's why he was googling because he was all paranoid that he was going to get like the bodies that are going to be discovered. So he tried to burn them at first and realized how hard it was when. It blew up. Now me, as I listening to this and I studied this, I know forensically you cannot burn a body is That's not how it's going to work. He did not. He sees this on a movie. He get this from a movie and tried to do what he sees on a movie in real life. When that plan didn't work out, he had to start going to dump the body parts. He told me he couldn't lift his parents. It was too hard to move them. It was very and he told me in person that it was hard to dismember them as well. He said, it's not like the movies or the TV shows. I could barely cut through and it was very hard to sit there and hear all that and me to speak on this right now because it's very gruesome.

47:04 And yeah. He did it over a period of days, on days at different places across Wisconsin and places he was familiar with and had been to. And the reason why he did on the cat's mother's property there because he didn't think the cops were gonna put He thought he was smarter than the police and that the cops were not gonna they'd have to get a search warrant for the property. Never thought she was gonna call in anything with the turkey vultures. He figured that the best way was like, oh, they can't get a search warrant. Her mom and no Cat and them are gonna protect me. So I'm going to use their property. It'll be harder to get a search warrant than how he was leaving the body parts throughout Wisconsin River and all those kinds of stuff. He used to go fishing a lot, so he knew a lot of different spots, a lot of spots with his dad and parents and Mitch where they went fishing, and that he would go swimming with Cat and friends from high school, he told me.

47:54 So he utilized familiar places. So I don't know where else he put but he went to different rivers, Yeah, over the course of days. And he did it in the day and at nighttime so that it wouldn't be caught. And so he used to feutilize the freezer. And he put the body parts in the freezer on ice and then took his backpack. He told me he. Because his garage is how his house was set up. His garage is connecteds. You pull into the garage and you can go into the house from the garage, but you can shut your garage door. That was how he was able to kind of get away with loading into the trunk. Of the car.

48:35 Did he ever say directly that kat was helping him or did he kind of imply it? Or he did? He did? He told me, He told me a few times. He said that she. Knew when she was cleaning up the blood in the bathroom because there was so much blood that she knew, and that they had a talk in person without their phones and stuff being electronics being present so that nothing could hear. Now, I don't know if that's true that she knew, because that was the only way in his mind, she really wanted to be with him and start a life with him and want this house and all the stuff that he couldn't even do. So he wanted that life insurance money and so that he told her we're going to be fine, and we're gonna be set because I'm going to get this insurance money.

49:17 That's what he told me. That she thought that they were gonna And that's why I think it's gets a little touchy because he felt like that. The mom and them. He always led me to believe the cat, and her mom did kind of know more, but I don't know if they really did or if they really just believed him because he's so manipulative. But he told me that when she was helping with the cleanup process, and it's a little weird because he was driving the dad's car and any other time before that, she always had to give him a ride. So he said unless she was if she was working, and she was a pharmacy tech, she was working or something. He didn't have a ride anywhere, and his dad would not let him use the Subaru, and his mom worked too, and they were very He said his dad was frugal and his parents did not want him using the cars, and they would not even buy him his own car. That's so he didn't have anything.

50:05 I think he was just resentful because he sees like, you know, he's just home and he has no way to even go anywhere. He's I think he did this as a way that he thought he'd get a house, money, have cars, and even at the time he still didn't even have that much money, because he told me he didn't even have really money to eat or anything like that. He was using his dad. He went to get used the free coffee, and he was using different reward points and other like other food and stuff like that to even get by. He told me he was going to try to find a job, and I'm like thinking, like find a job now, like after he's already done all this stuff. So he was very very delusional, like before he got caught. Yeah, Betel, Yeah, so he was like in the stages of cleaning and all that.

50:50 So he said when she brought the swiffer and the H two. O and all that kind of stuff, that she did know that what was the what was going on. I don't know if she really did, but that after that he thought he would get away with it and then he was going to try to find an actual job. But app get a job, Yeah, he. Did think that he would. Yeah, and he's never really worked because he lied about it. He's never really held a job even at the prison. He's kind of switched around jobs, been in trouble, Like it's just like very lazy, wants things handed to him.

51:31 Now, you said he couldn't lift, did he he told you he couldn't lift the bodies? Did he say? Someone? That's why he he told me, that's why he decided to dismember them because he could not move them, and that he told me he wasn't eating at the time and stuff like that because being isolated in his room whatever and pretending to work in school. And he was already one hundred and thirty I think he was only one hundred and thirty five pounds, So he didn't he physically couldn't. And he did say he impered it to a movie and TV show. It's not like the movie or TV shows. I couldn't, like couldn't move them, and he had to move them all the way from the basement to go to the garage that's attached to the house. So he decided to dismember. And he also told me that dismemberment was actually harder than he thought. He thought he was going to be able to saw through and all this stuff. He used multiple different tools to try to cut through because he couldn't get it to cut, get the bodies to cut. So he went out and got ice, and then he pulled all the fruit out of his chest freezer that was down the stairs, put the ice in there, and then put the body parts in there and move them.

52:35 He told me, over days. How are you feeling when he was telling you all this, Was it surprising you that he was just opening up about it. I was. I was not as so surprised, just because the detective sending me in and like having people talk, and it took me months and months and months to get this rapport so he would even tell me anything. But I was very grossed and sickened and like very the grew someone, especially losing my own mother. I don't I don't understand because he always said his parents were always told me his parents were loving and and stuff like that. It wasn't even anything to do with that. They it was just tight up. He said he lied for too many years that he couldn't get out of it. And he said that they kept nagging. It's like his words was nagging when they would go and her mom would be like, oh, what are you going to provide for my daughter? He felt very how he said, was very pressured by everyone and pressured by his family.

53:33 Why why is Mitch? Why is Mitch? Like have this life and have a house, and you're still in our house and you still don't have anything. Where's your paycheck? H Where's where's your degree? And that's when his father started catching on, and so that's when he said that night before the night before, he overheard his parents talking in the room and Bart telling Christa that he was he knew Chandler was lying and he really didn't finish school. And that's when he told him how he called the college. And then the next day that's when he was gonna, you know, they're gonna go. He thought they actually had a meeting. Unfortunately, I don't know. I think he would have done it either way. But there was never a fight.

54:15 His dad never got to confront him. He told me his dad didn't even know what happened, Like his dad never saw him, wow, because he came out and his dad's back was to him and then he just put the gun to his back. So his dad never never even probably knew what was even happening to him in that moment. But his mom, his mom knew he came in the front door and she and she came in the front door and she had the soda and stuff, and he just came out from the side and then he shot. Her too twice and then he had to try to drag. Her body down to there. He dragged her down there because he had a hard time.

54:59 It was like taking him, like he said, it was really hard for him, hard with his He said, I wasn't strong. I wasn't strong. I didn't know, so I was like he would utilize. That's why a lot of the stuff was moved in the living room because he was trying to utilize different pieces of like carpet and other stuff to help drag the body to bring it down into the to the basement where his dad already was. The reason he had his mom be delayed is because he was trying to already cover up what he did with his dad so that when she came home, he was going to be set up for her. So she walked into the situation when she saw she was just coming home from work. Did he say if she knew or did he shoot her from behind?

55:39 She knew, she knew, she knew, she saw she saw him before. In that moment about you said, detectives will send you in to kind of get information, Like what's that like? Detectives will send you in to kind of get information, like what's that like? Yeah, because I am a missing person avocan am my degree and all that I've worked with some of the detectives in Vegas and Carson City. They won't talk to some of the police Sola and I was, I've been on this case four years now and my mother was missing her son. They're actually from California, and they were doing a kind of deal out here in Nevada, illegal kind of drug trade type weed thing with cash, and her son went missing, and they had they sent me in there to talk to some of They sent me in there.

56:37 When they finally caught onto the suspects, they tried to flee the country, so I think the FBI and them raided them in Montiana. So I ended up being an FBI case. And so before it turned to FBI case, it was just a little Mono county, little small like he's the only prisoner in the like not prisoner, but in the jail, him and his wife and someone else. But they would have me talk to people to try to figure out where, you know, people's remains were, and I would actually like go on search parties and like lead search parties, search and rescue to help try to find And we did end up finding her son, but they they dumped him like eighty minutes away, so every area we were looking was actually wrong. And so the detectives would coach me and tell me this is how you talk to someone, and like, tell me how you want to utilize. Uh, it's kind of manipulation back to them.

57:33 You don't want to sit there, you don't want to badger with questions right away. So I never asked him. He offered the information to me Chandler, And so that's kind of like what I would do. They send me in. I would go in as if I'm like, you know, just this normal person, like hey, okay, not really say that I'm working with the police and things like this. And then I tried to figure out and get them to talk to me to figure out where remains are so that I can reunite the person with their family. And so those people did get caught, and that's now a federal case and the trial is this year. And and so we did we did find her son, but it did take us to two years two years or so.

58:18 To even find her son. So there wasn't very much left, but she at least we did a celebration of life. I helped the family plan it all. And so what I did was I went out to California and reading and I helped with the mom. I helped she went to different events. I also went to lawyers with her, So I kind of knew and utilized all my kind of tools that all the detectives and I've used to you know, locate missing people. I've had local cases like a husband killer's wife and try to like that type. That one was a weird case for me because he was calling them false tips. Whenever I would get these leads or tips, they always somehow linked back to him. So we kind of started knowing he did get guilt.

59:00 See he didn't get the we have death penalty here. He didn't get the death penalty because he did take that plea. But yeah, so I've been I've been doing it before I even a new Chandler's case since twenty twenty. So I kind of just utilize my empathetic and just kind of like giving. My ears so he won't he It was. It was hard, and still I still think there's things that I he didn't tell me, and there's probably stuff that I still don't know about everything. You know, I don't think he said everything. And I think that he played victim a lot because he did that. He's always said he. Did it by himself to me, and I don't think he had any help at all within me. I don't even think he knew that a clean up. I think she just was manipulated and brainwashed. I don't think that people want to believe that someone like that could actually like he's very reserved and quiet, so I don't think they.

59:54 Thought he was even capable of doing that. I just don't understand because it did find the body on the prop property type thing, and that's when he was saying why they didn't cover for him that they knew, which always was a little weird to me because it is kind of true, like if I had if someone put if there's a body found my property and it was I don't know why they were still talking to him, but they were sending him like money and gifts and sweatshirt. He said he started sweatshirt from them. They could just have been very manipulated by him and just not wanting to believe it. How he talks on the prison calls is how he speaks to it. Hey, how you doing, like, oh, what's going on today? Like you would never even know he did anything. Yeah, it seemed like they just didn't want to accept the fact. And it sounded like too that that might have been part of the reason Dull Dulcey and her fiance broke up, because I know they surely they.

1:00:49 Were fighting over it. Yeah, they were fighting over it, because I think that what he said, Yeah he said, so he. Lied to me. So he told me they stopped talking to him sooner than they did. But they'd actually talked to me for a lot on those recordings, and I had confronted him again, and guess he got angry and said, I don't know why you keep bringing up Cat. I never think about her or her mom, And who cares if my timeline was off by four or five months? What right? Four or five months? They still talk to him, and he's telling me they abandoned him and they left him and they got him in trouble and they knew what was going on, but I but that's it. They were sending him stuff and she said that the mom. Would you know he still has a sweatshirt to this day from the mom.

1:01:33 So you saw him the September twenty sixth, September twenty seventh, did you see him that time? On the twentyeighth? No? Nine person, just some video. Yeah, the twentieth, I went home, so I didn't see him. Only went to Dodge two days, two. Days, and then was that you said to zoom call on the twenty eighth. I we've been. I don't even know how many visits we have. I'm sure you could pull it up. I know someone had it on a little while back, but I guess it got deleted when we were doing the zoom. Those weren't recorded. Then they switched over to go through the same phone company I see as solutions. You could schedule visiting on there. He can or I can't, and you'd get a visit on there, and we would do those visits. And he doesn't talk on that one because those are all recorded.

1:02:19 He talks, but he won't talk about that stuff. There's times on the phone calls like yeah, there's phone calls that we talked about, like his appeal and he told me about that no merit because the lawyer didn't think there was any grounds for appeal. So I know he filed an appeal on his own. So he's going to try to fight this still, but he'd be his own lawyer. With the other people, there's that guy that a pastor that killed his family. So he's in there with another guy, Chris Watts is a mentor in there and like does like a ministry thing. And then this other Christopher, this Christopher guy, he's this inmate mentor, and so they they're all like try to get themselves. So they're trying to like help him with it because he wants a new trials.

1:03:08 He wants to go for some kind of self defense. Didn't I asked him, why didn't he do that the first time? Why didn't you do that at trial? What your public defenders kind of just say, you know, didn't have any defense. I've never seen a trial like. That's another reason why I used his too, because I have watched a lot of trials throughout since the nineties, and most times someone has something or they're they're picking, they're picking at, you know, witnesses, and his kind of like no, no questions, no nothing, And he said, oh, I did have a defense, but they wouldn't go with his defense, which was the self defense because the evidence doesn't align with the self defense. That's why they couldn't. The public defenders couldn't help him. Those clothes were from his public defenders. But since he was wearing was the same one they gave him his clothes. The Public Defender's office has like the clothes they can borrow and stuff like that. And he I asked him what he was doing.

1:03:58 I said, were you this is in person? What were you doing with that paper? And pat? Were you doodling? He laughs? He said, ha ha ha, Yeah I was. I didn't even pay attention to any of it. It was boring. I don't know how you watched it. So he didn't pay attention to any of his trial, according to him, and it's boring. He only paid attention. When Kat spoke because he felt that she betrayed him. Yeah, and that's why, Yeah, he felt betrayed by her. That he did this because like of like of yeah, and that he and because they stayed talking to him. I think he felt, like, you know, he felt very big betrayed by her. And he always like, oh, I don't care about her, but no, that's not.

1:04:44 So. I feel like, yeah, he uh, probably is very resentful because he thinks that he was going to have this life that he with her and then he it didn't end up that way. And then he finds out during the discovery process awaiting his trial that now they actually the mom. Called there was Turkey voters. Oh, she gave her phone, you know up because he told me. The reason he hid those. Phones with the paper towel on the foil is he watched the show that it jams the signal. It's an alien show, a sci fi show. He always joke. He joked around me once. I'm like, oh, I was like, there's a storm coming and it's very rare for Vegas, so make sure you put your tinfoil on her so that you're the aliens don't come get you. So he's very like, very show like Star Trek that kind of stuff. So he's in his head. He he thought that the phones would wouldn't be traced because he wrapped them on foil.

1:05:33 He just he forgot the most important card, which is don't hide them in the clot in the house, in the garage. I think they were. That was the thing. He was mad because he told me, I was really mad because his mom's co worker is the one that alerted this whole thing. And then he said cat and the cat and the don't say and the coworker and then made him go to the police and say that they were missing. Because it would have been out of character. So he didn't know. He in his head, he didn't think anybody was gonna even miss his parents. He's just gonna just he wipe his hands with it. Yeah, So he was all shocked by all the coworkers showing up.

1:06:14 He told me that the detective came and he was in the shower and like he was just really like he just couldn't get get himself out of that situation in that moment because he didn't even think that was going to happen. So that's why it seems so unprepared, because he just really thought he was going to He just thought. He thinks he's smarter than everybody. That's so bizarre in a way too, and I'll bet you can probably relate to this, is that he seems very not like a genius, but he seems at least average to above average intelligence. So it's shocking in a way to see how naive he is in certain areas. And I think he gets a naiveness because he's like taking things from movies and this show was in fiction shows, and like you know, that's he basing and mimicking things off, and is how he acts off of that, and so he kind of tried to cover it up like this.

1:07:04 Do you never some of that? Do you think some of that is also there's narcissism of just underestimating that other people have common sense and intelligence. I do think that. I think that he does feel like he's smarter and above ever, I think he thinks he's more intelligent than most of the population. That's how he's talked to me. He thinks he's smarter than all the other inmates at Dodge too. So he thinks that that's why he feels so betrayed because he doesn't realize that his own mistakes are how stupid and horrible of a thing gruesome that he did. It's more like, oh, a cat, and then told her her mom called about Turkey voters. The co worker. It's everybody else's fault but him, and he was lying for like five six years old pathological liar on top of there.

1:07:50 But he doesn't believe his own lies. That's the thing. He knows that he's lying. He knows a set of a pathological liar. When you start lying and you do lies, normally start believing him. You started believing your own lies. And that's how sometimes criminals can be like a lie detector. He really does not believe his own lines. He knows he's lying. That's what's really weird about his personality. Can you talk a little bit about the romance aspect. Is that how you were able to set up an in person interview in the first place. Had you already gained that trust? And Yeah, so I already gained that trust when I went there in person. He called me on the second day when I was leaving, so I went back on the Tuesday I left after he told me.

1:08:35 All this stuff. I was driving back in from Dodge and I went down to Milwaukee and I was like going through this march and he called me and he's like, oh, I wanted to make sure you're a right. I'm like, I'm fine, and you I have my rental car and he's like, oh, I love you. That's when he started love bombing me. Was like six months into it. That was after he started, before after I met him. What was that like? Were you unprepared for him to say that? Yeah, I didn't know what to say, so I couldn't even say it back. So I just didn't say anything, and he said I didn't have to say it back. You don't have to say it back, but I love you. And that's how that went. And so then he would send me yeah, like just like I was reading you that like little card and stuff like that, like oh happy Easter, oh this that like. The last time he wrote me was recently, like he was mad about it.

1:09:23 So he was like, he's like, Lisa, hey, I'll keep this short. Did you block my calls and ghost me? I can't keep doing this. Prison is hard enough. To deal with it, and now I'm dealing with it alone. So go to the newest McDonald get their WiFi and send me a quick message to tell me what's going on. If you want me to leave you alone, then just say so. But until I get something from you, I'll be missing you. And so I wrote him on the correlings and told him, no, I'm not talking to you and you need to take accountability. Then he wrote me back, I think I have it. So he told me, hey. I'm sorry you feel gass light and all that. But the only person that I signed Love and rock is my guy from County that I got to talk to here. He always signed Love of Rockets, but he used me to get my letters and whatnot. I can send you a full one of his letters where it says that whatever this dude is saying is just for clout and money. I was very careful and never talked about my case, sing or anyone for that matter. But you, I didn't write like that, like that you told me to.

1:10:19 I didn't mean to adminish you on the phone. It was really nice to talk to you again, I replied to that girl again. But because she's clear about. Having a boyfriend, I started catching on. I know there was no grinder account again that with Michael trying to mess with me in County, I've always had girlfriends in my whole life. I like to talk to you on the phone, but it seems like you made your mind up. But for real, Doli said, thank you for talking to me for the last two years. It made a difference for me with you motivating me to what I can do here. Sorry, I asked to end like this. I'm almost one hundred percent positive it's my. Friend put in quotations from County. I'm glad I got to know you're a great gown and good mom. So I hope to hear from you again. Googluck out there, I love you. When did you send you that letter? It was eight twenty three, twenty four.

1:11:02 Oh wow, so really recent. And so I said, I understand this is probably not what you want to hear. No, but I don't want to talk to you anymore. I knew you have been writing girls and that you lie. I tried to advise you that not to lie to me. I'm sorry, but I don't believe as a boyfriend as you're trying to claim. No one with any man who's going to write someone that's on the inside. Also wrong that you didn't tell me a few weeks back when I asked. Also, those canteen and funds are you're being funded as well as other fans trying to fish for information or letter back. You didn't tell me about this girl, and you didn't tell me about anybody sending you money. You've led me to believe that you were alone in there. I told you to be honest because my name is linked to yours, giving me death threats and all sorts of.

1:11:45 I had death threats in the past, and all. Sorts of stuff. Again, I clearly thought you weren't doing any of this stuff. Do you even understand that. Heart and pain that you caused people. You swore no one sent you money. You swear you don't write any one, but now that's not true. I appreciate your lives to talk about. I need to be honest, but how I'm feeling, I'm not going to move past the lives and miscommunications that have come to light, especially regarding a situating in that girl and other documents I saw from Dane County. That's kind of plain right. Plus, you assured me you weren't doing anything. You mentioned you applied to her, but it sounds like you're like her. Clarity about having a boyfriend being with him might not align with that. I've been seen and told you if that's what you want, to go ahead and entertain her.

1:12:27 I thought we built a foundation, but I guess not, because all you have done is gave me inconsistencies. It's really difficult for me to ever believe in you again. I think you misled me, and I want to I have to. This has forced me to reconsider everything and take his time through. I think you should take this time to reflect who you've pushed away, lives to enheart to, including me. I wish you the best to take care that's back to and I haven't heard from. Since this hall was basically this month. Yes, I haven't been talking to him for a while, beginning I moved to a different place, uh here in Vegas. I stopped talking to him before I moved. So I want to say in April, like, I haven't been talking to him. So I was I blocked to prison, but I blocked it through my iPhone.

1:13:17 So he that's why he told me to go get the nearest WiFi. He thinks that I don't have Wi Fi or something like that, because he said he's been trying to because he's been trying to call me. When he's trying to call me previously, I already knew he was kind of lying to me. And I didn't want my energy mix with anymore. And I didn't have any use for anything else with him, and I wanted to just break away for it from it. So I just didn't know what to do. So I just blocked him from I just blocked him from my iPhone and stuff. Yeah, yeah, wow. I didn't know whether I didn't know. I didn't even know any like this stuff like I I didn't know until I went. But when I went on to Reddit. I didn't even know because that that his old sell I know who that is.

1:14:00 I know that Michael guy. I know he spoke to me about him. So yes, it's like when he is cornered. Yes, that's the guy you talked to. So it's like when he's cornered, he'll admit to some of it, but he spins it around like, oh, he just wants clout and money. It's not true. I'll send you a letter from him. It's like, I don't want to see the letter here, And he's like, that is that is. How he writes. That is that is a real letter. That is not that read. I know people question it. That is that is him. That is Chandler. So yeah, then I didn't know about him writing other girls and stuff. He told me he was all alone. So then all of a sudden he's telling me, no girl's writing him. That girl. It's this girl who's from Ohio and she is one of those fan girls who has been sending him money and packages and stuff like that. So I guess he must be. And I'm sure he's been talking to a bunch of other people this whole time. But this whole time he kept when I would he would lead me to believe that there was no like he's so alone, just like I told you in the letter I just read, Oh I I'm so alone. You left me alone in here, and he goes, you're not alone, Like you're not alone.

1:15:04 You write people. He didn't even tell me that guy writes and he's told me that it's old, the one you interviewed, that his old bunk bunkie, that he didn't even talk to him. He wasn't writing him any letters back. He's very manipulative and making you people try to believe he has and you won't ask for money. He'll do it in a way so he'll try like he's like try to get like he'll get like he did tell me that got money from some guy in Canada who was like an author's writing a book about him. I didn't know about that. I saw I saw something on like YouTube or something. I'm like, wait what, And then I asked him, you have a book getting write about you? Like, I don't want to be in a book. I don't want my name linked to this anymore. And that's when he said, oh, yeah, he's going to write the book with or without me.

1:15:49 But they gave me a chance to give my side of the story, but I'm not going to and this guy sent him money, So. Yeah, he's so he gets kind of yeah after about it. Yeah, yeah, because I would find out through the public because and I keep telling your case is public. Literally, I don't understand. He understands his a high profile case was on court TV, like anything that comes out about his case is going to be in the public. He just thinks it's a little late rinkiny dnkity case. And no, I'm not gonna nothing's going to come back or find out anything. So I found out from on YouTube or something that there was going to be But there's a book and you written about him. And then I asked him on like a message, like electronic message. Then he admitted to me that that someone is writing a book with or without his side of the story. They're just giving him a chance to say his side. And I don't know, maybe one day he will tell people, but.

1:16:46 I don't know. Yeah, because he's like, I don't know, I don't know if he will. Do you know any of the timeline for the appeals that he is trying to. File, So he filed trials back of my level mess. There's some of us, like the races. After so he they filed the no merit, and then after they filed the no merit, he filed the appeal. He had like I think thirty days after that no merit and he filed it. And I think he filed it and he told me the grounds were He's going to say that they wouldn't let him change counties, that he needed a different county, that it was biased because the media, No, his defense was inadequate.

1:17:33 Trying to think what else. He did it himself, So I just try to think off the top of my head what he said, but I don't know what the other inmates had like helped him write it in legal terms, But that's what he's trying to go to try to get. So he's trying to get a new trial right in hopes that he and then he said, if I don't get out, then I'm going to get like legislation will change and I'm going to get out one day. So he thinks in his head he's going to eventually get out. That's why he won't twell his side because he doesn't want to ruin it. He doesn't understand that appeals only based off the case that was in court. They aren't going to go back and they're not going to do all this stuff. They're not going to go you know, use what your told your grandma or me. It's off what you what happened at trial, and the trial was he did it and that he's guilty and that's it. Like it's not going to change. I tried to tell him that, but he just thinks that it will. I don't know, it's very delusional.

1:18:30 Can you talk a little bit about I know this is probably uncomfortable, but the can you talk a little bit about I know this is probably uncomfortable, but the death threats and how this all came to be. Yeah, So when it was through Reddit, so I guess what happened was I'd already went there and visited in person. I didn't even know people would like look into it. I think it was someone up from camp or whatnot. I did see here and there and read They're like, oh, it wasn't even me. They were like someone was paying for his packages or like his canteen. Like it's quarterly, like every three months. So if it's like starts in July first, it's for that three months and you can only get hygiene if someone sends it to you from the outside, so he can't buy He can buy like tooth based stuff there, but not really. There's some stuff they cannot buy. It has to be some from the outside.

1:19:25 So he's been having people send him stuff. So what happened is people want to try to see what was is someone paid a freedom of information request to get the visitor record which had my name on it, and they knew I went in person. Breddit's deleted some of it now, like I didn't see it when I was on there, but they had the visitor log up and the guy posted he was from Canada and it had my name and I had the day I visited in person, and they were kind of they'd seen my profile, so they started looking and says my first and last name. They found my Instagram, my Facebook, my address. People were sending me death threats on them. A post from me on Facebook, like from my Facebook where I told someone I'm not going to talk to the public, and they shared that to the reddit and then people kind of roasted me, like, oh, let me just asked me anything stuff like that. Before that, though, it was really bad on his reddit I mean, they had my name, my picture, like my address.

1:20:16 They totally dosed me. And I went to his moderator because I'm in It's funny that I'm seeing moderator of his reddit. I'm in flight friends. So when Gabby Potito's case was going on and they were looking for Brian laundry out there in Florida, I would be watching on my little flight thing, right, and so I'd be on the flight friends, and I still have that and like you talk about different flights, and so I asked the moderator to remove some of that. She said she would with some of it. She couldn't because of it being a public freedom of information request. So people would write me, sometimes women, sometimes men, But most of the death threats were light, Oh you're in love with him, Oh you should die, like hope, like wishing bad and harm on me. And that's why I didn't want to talk for a while. I got like nervous.

1:20:59 I didn't know. I didn't even think about it in person. When I went in person that someone was going to doxs my information like this, they were all thinking his grandma bought his stuff and everything, so then they assumed I bought it and it wasn't even me, it's other fan people Like there's multiple Fancy has fans. They fan people like guys to people write him from England from like all over Ireland, Canada, Wow, and they're always constantly like people are constantly sending him stuff. So then they went to dig in. They told up that they got the freedom information of who's on his visitor list, which was me because I had to be approved by Dodge and felt a little form. So they they got all these visits and people were like, oh, she's a frequent flyer because I obviously came him in Vegas out there, and I was I don't even would listen to no one would want to hear my story in that moment because everyone had their assumptions and their minds made up of what I was already, and the stuff I was getting in my Facebook was like you're gonna die on a hill, You're gonna mess up your job, You're messing up your life, like you're this just kind of very rude stuff wishing me harm and they assumed that it was me doing it.

1:22:05 But he's been taking care of about other people, not me, So. What is flight friends? I've never heard of that. It's like a Reddit flight France. So like there's there's like a flight Radar twenty four, this little app you could have and you can watch a bunch of flights throughout the world and throughout the country. And so when in Florida and Brian Laundry is hiding out there, they were like circling so you can like we were watching to see and like the planes would go out. I staw have that flight things. I'm interested in planes. And stuff like that anyway, And so you can see like all the flights leaving and and some of it's kind of creepy because if there are raised a plane crash, you could actually see the descent like go down and things like that. So it's real time, real tracking. But my daughter's phoone to see her family in different parts.

1:22:47 I've been able to track her flight on there because you just need to know the flight numbers of when you go bord your plane, if your flight two two eight or whatever, you know, you can track and it shows the whole world too, So that moderator kind of knew me did have some of that stuff removed. But that's initially how my name got put out was people were thinking, who's sending him stuff? We're going to dig into this further, and then oh, here's her visitor log, and now it must be her, and now they must be dating and she must be in love with him, and I must be this fangirl and it's because that's completely not true. So I am not a fan person like that all. It just got caught up in a thing trying to do a project that turned into like I didn't know how to get out of it type thing.

1:23:31 Do you still feel like you're kind of caught in it or do you feel comfortable with your placement right now? I'm glad to be away my energy, away from all of that, and like I'm I have no regrets about like not talking to him ever again. I just get a little nervous because I don't know. I'm sure some people might not you know, still like me or have assumptions about me, And that's fine. It's just I wanted to know the truth to be told of like what I knew, because my attention is we're never I don't want my name to be linked with his in a way that it seems like because I actually have in a relationship, so I don't want my name being linked. With him as if I'm really with him. So now there's a book being written, Now what's going to happen because there's assumptions about my name out there and I don't want to be in a book. And that's when I was like, what is going on? You didn't tell me there's a book being written and you know, and that stuff's out there. My name is out there at this point, so it's like I it's like it the public assumed stuff, and so I wanted to kind of like made sure.

1:24:32 I did try to write forty eight hours, like a. Couple months back, and like let them know who I was, because you know, they had did a peace on him, and then. I haven't. I was kind of like, I, I don't know had unfollowed, has read it because of the harassment I was getting to. Then I went back on there to see what was new, like what was people saying. I don't think I've been on since like last year, And that's when I had saw and I started of writing people back because it came to at the point where now I feel more confident and comfortable that I can defend myself or like say my side of the story where before I was really nervous because I kept getting thrusts and people would actually write me, and I had to turn off all my messaging, all my like adding me as a friend, everything, because I would just be getting messages and people adding me from all over parts.

1:25:22 It just messages all the time. It's like some of my stuff, you can't even send me a message because people were writing me horrible stuff and assuming like things about me, and if I try to write back at that time, they were just sharing it to read it, and so I wasn't going to be able to get any thing across. Of how it really do you think you received just I guess. Fifteen to twenty from different people in different platforms Facebook, Instagram, Reddit, Snapchat. I had to leave my whole snapchatt because all of those are always linked with my real name, so everybody would just look me up and find me. And so I had to like change some of my names, like my name my name name on those apps so that people can find me is easy. And it was a little scary, and they they would they had my address out there, and I thought someone was going to come to my house or do something to me, and stuff like that, so I moved and stuff and it just got like it just spuns a lot of control that And I understand because as a true crime brand and I watching other cases or watching like a show you do, you kind of get immersed into it and you feel like okay, and then you're like, oh well, oh, you get really mad because you're feeling a certain way, and now you're mad at that person because you think they think I'm the one helping or I'm this thing, and they want him to suffer in there, you know, And.

1:26:48 Uh, that's what it is. It comes down to. People want him to pay his consequences and he is in his way, but he not really. I mean, I don't think he ever is going to ever very regretful. Room full, and he kind of does kind of have it made in there because he does have all these fan people doing stuff for him. He's in a working prison, so he makes his own money anyway, So if it means twenty one dollars a month, it's not very much like twenty eight cents an hour or something. So I mean, if you he's in Dodge and when he first got there, there was gangs and stuff there, and he had a few couple fights, like he told me he had to fight in the freezer, fight in the shower. They call him the butcher. They say, either one, you're the butcher.

1:27:30 You just remember your parents. So he's got it from other people who actually are in there for something else that are like pissed off that he took out his family and they can't see their family, and so he's had that happen. And then they did kind of like rearrange Dodge a little bit where they moved some of the gang people wait to fox Lake and like he's kind of you know, like I said, they moved Chris Watts to his unit. He's more with the like child molesters and people who have killed their own kids and their parents or their family or their wife or Chris Watts, like Shnanan Bellain. This let's so they don't harm each other because they all did the same thing. So they see nothing wrong with anything they do.

1:28:11 And he said he's become friends with Chris Watts. Yes, he talks to Chris. Yes, says he works out with him and stuff. And then there's the other guy that's in there. He was Joyce Meyer's bodyguard. His name's Christopher look up his name. He killed his wife and he killed his family. This is too and I think he wrote Christopher Coleman. So he murdered his wife Sherry, and their son's Garrett eleven and Gavin nine in two thousand and nine and he was a bodyguard for Joyce Meyer and he was convicted of first agreemers. So Chris Watts is in Wisconsin because they try to hurt him, and so that's kind of like what happens the same thing with this guy. He's from Illinois, that crime happening. So everybody gets moved to this dodge because it's where the family murderer people go. So it's like protected in that section, so they have that, and then you have the child will and stuff like that, and then you got like the other end of it of the dodge where they keep the way. It's like you know people who are in there for like other crimes or like it's transitional. So some people go into dodge, but they might not see Chris Watson like Chandler in them because they're in like a different unit. Sometimes they may because Chandler was last I knew, was working as the dental little clerk where they go and he gets to walk in the hallway and stuff, and Chris Wats is a custodian, so sometimes people do will see them, and so some people do say stuff to them, like you know, and it's transitioned, so someone might be in there for like a gang thing or not even for a murder, and they're getting put somewhere else. So they move these other guys there from Illinois or Colorado and put them to Wisconsin.

1:29:43 So he's never going to get moved out of Dodge. He's tried, and they told him that it will be a no because there's no other prison that they keep the people because it's like if something happens to them or in one of them, the prison is going to get in trouble. So while everybody wants something to happen, it's it is protected in a way, right. That's what inmate mentor is. So he has a mentor, and that's that Christopher Coleman. So his mentor is who he goes and they meet like once a month and like he'll help with the appeal. Or if he has questions about like when the prison life or what. I don't really know everything they talk about and it's not recorded but he said he's still like he's supposed to see a therapist, like a psychiatrist. He won't talk to the psychiatrist even about any of this. He won't. He refuses to talk to them, he says, because they're going to write it down and they're going to use it against him for his appeal. So he doesn't even talk in his therapy when he has scheduled therapy.

1:30:33 He's more so just wants to try to get out and get a new trial. He's not very like trying to even better himself. Right, he doesn't see anything wrong with his mind, unfortunately. And there's like times when he's say, taken his medicines and told me he's like hit it under his tongue in a certain way and not taking his medicine at all, because he says when he takes the medicines, he's not like feels kind of numbed out and makes him sleep. So if he's like he has a TV. You in a cell, he has a radio, so he will watch TV and stuff, so he won't take his medicine on nights he watches or whatever he'll watch. I'm not sure what he's doing now, but like he watched like a sci fi show, or they get a lot of old channels like the British channels and stuff like that.

1:31:15 So he does have he does have you have stuff. That's why one of the moms that help well with someone to get death throw, but death Row also can get TV, so it's kind of like they kind of do get stuff. But I mean, you know, did he ever mention video gaming? And uh, yes, he always video games. He still plays video games. He has a tablet. They have tablets. They're all given they're given a tablet at Dodge, so they have a little tablet. That's how you can message me and whoever's I don't know who's helping him. I mean he could probably put money on from his paycheck himself. So people always say it's restitution. Well, they don't take any money out for restitutions. When people are sending him these stuff, they're not. They're not taking restitution out. There is no he's not paying anything back. So like if he he puts whatever, I'm not sure how much, just so say you get this tablet and all of them get one and they have to put money on it.

1:32:06 So if he wants to put money on it or someone like sends him money and he puts it on the tablet. He can listen to music, he can play video games, and he can watch movies on there. The movies come out a little like like say Jurassic World, like they might get that movie like delayed, you know, from the outside world, right, but they they he does have an opportunity to purchase that stuff, so he will play and has told me he has played video games on the tablet and that's what he did on that That's all he would do when he told me he would on the outside, he played video games that he'd be isolated in his room and when his parents thought he was actually working, and he wasn't working at all, just playing that game. So but there games are a little bit different to it. Or did he feel like he was addicted.

1:32:49 No, he never said anything about feeling like he was addicted to her or anything like that. Yeah, that's one one of my. Normal part of life. But you know, he just did it because he was and to pretend he was working. Sometimes he said to me, like. In person, like he would like so he wasn't always playing that video game like he would play it, but then he would like go to sleep too, and then that's why he would be isolating because it was during like because some of this happened during COVID. COVID kind of gave him the cover. So then he's like, oh, I have to work from home for American Family Insurance, right, So when his dad, he told me his dad was also working from home, but him and his daddy said didn't talk, so they text message each other, email each other.

1:33:30 His mom would try to talk to him and come in his room. Okay, So his dad and him, even if they were in the same house, according to Chandler, they would text each other or email each other. So he would hide out and he would pretend he was working. So that's why he told me, Oh, I wasn't eating, I was miserable with life because I was so. Involved with this. Lie couldn't come out of my room because my dad thinks I'm working and they'd run into each other. So he would try to purposely avoid bart while they'd be home during the whole COVID thing, and so that gave him a lot of cover because of the work from home. I think that's why they didn't question it for so long, because they're like when he didn't get his paycheck and stuff. And then one thing you just mentioned really briefly, was is it maybe his signature on his letters was love and rockets or something to do with love and rockets.

1:34:16 That's what it sell. That's what is his old bunkie writes. That's what his old bunkie writes to him. I don't know why, because I asked him why did why did you have grinder on the outside, And that's when he's like, I never had grinder. I always talked to, always had girlfriends. That's my bunky. Oh, he signs it love and rockets. I can send you one of his letters. I don't need to. I don't care. Like he always has a cover. He tried to always cover up for something. Hmmm. Interesting. But he told me that that person was never writing him, Like he told me all it ghost to me. They don't write me. I'm so alone. I don't have anybody that says it's not true. And he probably has a lot more people he talks to than I that I we don't even know about. I don't even know ye.

1:35:01 So is there anything else that you wanted to share that I didn't get to ask you about? Trying to think. No, I I just feel like I just feel like I got caught up in this, and I really just wanted to put out what the truth was and try to because it's tell the truth of what he's he's told me, so that Barton Christa's name is not ruined because they were not bad parents, and they were they were the victims here, as well as Mitch and like all his other family and everybody else, the coworkers, all his parents' friends and and I just feel really bad for all those all those involved in this.

1:35:46 Yeah, he really seems like even now after the crime is so far in the past, he's still wreaking havoc with his reckless. With his life it lies and like manipulating people. Yeah, well, I hope you don't get any more death threats. That's pretty on him. I haven't gotten it for a while, but it was happening back when when I first w I visited in person and they pulled up that list. But now my name has been out there for a while, so no, I know people know about me. So I just hope no one gives me anything because I don't want I don't want to anything to I don't want I'm like, I don't know how to word it, like I am, I'm very caring and all that I wouldn't I'm not.

1:36:32 I'm not don't want to be with him, not with him, and I don't want anybody to have assumptions that I was or am. So I wanted to make sure that I had said my truth of the side. Yeah, I appreciate it. Because that's why I was gay. The death threats because they think that I was the one helping. But it's really people from like Ireland, the UK, Canada. It's like because it's constant, and it's those people who actually are have that hyperstelia and have actually like you know, are attracted to criminals. That that's who he gets. And men included. I know he has men's that help and write him to so that's how he's been floating by getting buy. In there, M crazy. Did you get a good grade on the paper the thesis?

1:37:16 I got it a yes, And I get use that too when I go on to my job too, because it was like a six week it's like a six week part, so it's like different parts to it all too. So Yeah, so I finished that degree and I'm onto I graduated and I'm finishing up my bachelor's. Like I said, so I still so I have a degree with my major's criminal justice. Now I'm finishing getting a bachelor's and criminal justice with a minor in psychology. However, I'm using it to go on and I want to work with juveniles and do some kind. Of social work and help help help the youth. So I'm not going to kind of be like doing this after I've been involved with all these plus the local cases. I've been doing this for so long, and driver i've had experience with Chandler, I don't want to mix my energy anymore with that side. I want to help the youth so they don't do this to their parents or hurt anybody else. So that's what I'm going for.

1:38:14 Well, thank you so much for taking all the time to share your story and everything, and thank. You for letting me share my story and like being willing to talk to me and not judge me or and let me have mice tell to my side of what I know what I've been through with it. So yeah, it's fascinating. On one part, I was envious that you got to talk with Chandler. But now after hearing your whole story, I think I'm not as envious anymore. Unfortunately, No, I don't think anybody And it's very, very manipulative, So it's it's it's easier. It's easy for him to manipulate someone who's very naive and doesn't know anything about criminal justice at all. That's why when we said that girls still writing him again, she is from like Ohio or somewhere, and like she's not I'm going to end up being his next victim because right, he's probably been rainer the whole time.

1:39:05 But like, yeah, she had found me on Facebook. I had seen her profile, So I hope she hears this one, and I hope she knows that she's gonna that she needs to stay away. He's manipulative and he will manipulates people to they get He gets anything he wants, and he does it. He will not ask you outright for money. He does it in a way of a manipulation tactic, very covert, narcissistic. You would not think if it comes off like he's not secure, but he thinks he's smarter than everybody in that presence in the world, So he thinks he's very smart. Yeah, but yeah, that's all. You're welcome. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate you. Thanks, Lisa will be in touch. I want to thank everyone who has helped us this season. Thank you to everyone who provided interviews with us. That includes of course Lisa Ge but also Wallace and Andrew Smith. Thank you to the Chandler Holderson subreddit that has been invaluable source of information for this case. Thank you to the musical Geniuses twenty six hundred who allowed us to adapt one of his songs for our main theme, and of course Augusta Trevororum. Thank you to everyone on Patreon who supports the show. We couldn't do this without you guys. This month we had a couple new darksiders join up Ron Goodson, Openclassactions dot Com and Joe wu Kochen. We also had two yearly members, Kim and Eve Adam. We also had

1:40:38 a new associate producer at the Mug Club, which we're now offering mugs on Patreon. Thank you, Sam, our newest associate producer, and thank you to our twenty eight producer tier members Jason Luce, Michael Paul Dekel, Erica, Kevin Stevenson, Veronica Sidney Raynan, Kristin Rice, Jesse Bateman, Mariah, Monique Wilkinson, Teddy Redman, Jason Irvin, Jessica Cooper, Fiona Gibson, Jody C. Sunden, Joyce, Lovelace, Mallory Bitterman, Santana Savine, Gino, Oybunco, Tyler Ernster, Angela MF Pencil Junkie, Sherry Sly, Shelley Jones, Fran Alexis, Kathleen and Greg B. Do you know that it feels good to support things you love? If you love tapes from the Dark Side, then consider supporting us on Patreon for as little as the cost of one coffee a month. You can cancel any time, no obligation, and for the next twenty four hours, we're offering thirty three percent off your first month or your first year of membership. That's patreon dot com slash Tapes from the dark Side. Until next time, try to enjoy the daylight. A Dark Side Squad