S11, Chapter 19: Interview with a Bunkmate

0:04 Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion is advised. There's a series of forums that I've been frequenting since the creation of the website that they're hosted on reddit dot com. These forums vary in everything from recipes to true crime cases, and of course there is an entire subreddit, which is what the forums are called, dedicated to our one and only Chandler Holderson. I noticed that there were a couple of people posting on that website on that forum claiming to be ex romantic lovers of Chandler. I reached out to the two or three accounts and offered the chance to do an interview with these people, and all three of those fell through the cracks. I got no response after one or two messages. Back then, in November of twenty and twenty three, which shows just how long we've been on this case, I put out an open call for anyone who knew Chandler and would be open for an interview to contact me. I had our email address and a little bit of information about the podcast.

1:30 I did not get any bites. Then, in May of twenty and twenty four, someone made a post on that forum titled quote. So I was Chandler's bunkie in Dane County jail. The post went on to say, quote. I know I'm going to regret this, but if you have anything within reason you want to ask, semi constructively. I have no delusions about this being read it and all about my jail bestie, I'll answer. They do, however, reserve the right to remain silent LBVs. That last acronym apparently means a laughing but very serious.

2:11 This account went on to make two more posts in this forum with five pictures of various jail correspondents with Chandler Alderson. These letters that this person had been sending back and forth to Chandler seemed legitimate, and I reached out to them to see if they would be open for an interview, and they were. This person did request to remain anonymous, so the name we used during this interview as Wallace. They also provided additional correspondence to me privately outside of what was posted on Reddit, that verified beyond a reasonable doubt that this person had indeed spent time in jail with Chandler Alderson. Wallace had quite a bad call off during this interview. So I tried to edit all of that out, but there are a few that I had to keep in just for continuity's sake.

3:07 This interview is much longer than the Andrew Smith interview I did. I had so many more questions for Wallace than I did for Smitty, and part of that was because Smitty had already been interviewed by Nick Rakeita, another YouTube lawyer, and you can look up his entire interview with Rakeita. They got into a ton of stuff, and also there was the trial testimony that we got from Andrew. Now I'm going to go ahead and play you this interview, but I do want to say something first, which is as the interview progressed, I kind of found it frustrating to talk to someone who was essentially a friend to Chandler.

3:48 And you might sense a little bit of that frustration in my voice and in my tone. I think, personally just me that until Chandler seeks redemption for his actions, he is not a man to be friends with. As you know, in this podcast, we don't really pile on the offenders with name calling and that kind of thing. It's just not my style. But I do believe that the crimes Chandler committed in this lifetime will take extensive work to come back from, if it's even possible at all. And it pained me to hear someone who I felt like I could relate to this guy choose to put this person in his circle, spend emotional energy corresponding with this person, not necessarily in his close circle. But I feel there is an evil that surrounds Chandler, and that evil will be there until the day he chooses to confess and work towards making some kind of amends for his crime. If evil does exist, then Chandler surely is the human embodiment of it. Cunning, baffling, powerful evil. But I also understand Wallace's side of this story. When you are in the pen speak, you're surrounded by people who have made mistakes, and if you get into the habit of judging people for those mistakes, you will soon find yourself without any friends. And that's one thing you cannot afford when you're in such a situation. You need friends to survive, especially in a jail setting. But that's enough

5:20 of me blabbering. Let me get right into it. The interview with Chandler Holderson's bunk mate starts now, really, okay, so you want me to call you Wallace? Is that right? Wallace is good? Sure, and you can. Call me TZ. That's basically my O that came from the film industry, and it kind of just carried over Sure, yeah, let's see and then you said, okay, well, at first you said maybe not a lot of questions about you, but then you said, maybe I could. What's uh, what do you think. We'll kind of feel it out. I mean, I think it would only be sure that there's a little bit of background about me. I mean, yeah, of course you're gonna mention that you vented me and everything. I'm I'm I'm sure a little bit of background wouldn't wouldn't be too much of a of a thing, but obvious if I feel if I feel like the boundary is pushed a little bit, I won't be afraid to say no, or you know, in retrospect, I'll say, hey, let's keep that out of there.

6:22 So yeah, okay, that's that's actually works perfect. You actually stole the words out of my mouth, because that's one thing I've learned works really well, even though I've only done a few interviews. But it seems to be. I don't want to assume boundaries because I might miss out on a question that's very interesting. So if you do, comfort, yeah, just let me know. And it's no big deal. Okay, Well let's get started. So you go by Wallace and how we came across each other as I saw you post a thread on Reddit's saying you were a broom of Chandlers in the day drill a bunky. Yeah, yeah, do you want to just start there and just tell us whatever you want to about that?

7:14 Yeah. I was incarcerated at Dane County Jail at that time. I believe it was around November of twenty one. All through twenty two and a couple months in I had gone through like two or three bunkies because there's you know, there's there's a high turnaround with a lot of peel holds and short timers and whatnot. So I was a bottom bunk and I was getting a new top bunk and this, uh, one day, this kid walks in a little goffey you kind of had a little bit of a bit of a hipster mustache on him and kind of struck me as a little ned Flanders asking I kind of chuckled a little bit, and you know, traditionally when a new guy comes into the pod and you know, everybody immediately scopes him outside and whatnot. So I knew that I had an open bunk, so I was trying to kind of draw the card for the new bunkie.

8:16 So I saw him head off to my bunk and that game game like two or two or so man to kind of, you know, kind of situate himself. And so I walked back there and I have intended a fist bump. This is the tail end of COVID era, so social distancing is completely impossible while in jail, especially in a dorm like atmosphere. There's twenty five bunks and so there's about fifty people in each each pod, so you know, it's pretty passed. So I went over there, offered him fifth bump, and I said, hey, my name is redacted Wallace, and uh, they said, hey, how going, And then then he kind of struck me with something really funny. After we talked for a couple of seconds about just mating stuff, he explained where he was from, because he was coming from what's known as I guess would be considered the secure side of the jail where it's the old side of the jail where there's actual cells and it's the disciplinary housing and or housing for people with violent cases. And he had petitioned the share for the warden or sergeants to kind of give him an okay because he didn't have any conduct reports or anything to come over to the general population side where things aren't as strict. It's a lot more free flowing,

9:48 a lot larger dayroom and whatnot. So he came in, he moved in, then he hit me with the old you know who I am, right, And I thought it was I thought it was funny because he wasn't doing it to be copier or anything, but it was just amusing. And I'm looking at him and I'm like, oh, you're that guy on the news, right, So that was kind of my first interaction flipped the guy and. On the news at that point a fair bit. I mean, the news is always kind of a saying that's on at least one or two of the chance one or two of the TVs. There's three TVs for pod and you know, some people keep it on Sports Center, and then there are some you know, antiquated racial divides with some of the other TVs. But what are you gonna do at Jale? But usually four o'clock the major news news is that happened throughout the day, and somebody is usually watching him. So I knew it was the top of the town. I'd seen it in the paper, but I really didn't pay too much of mine to it because I never knew I was going to run into the guy. He's like, Okay, I got my own thing going on this guy, whatever the fark happened whatever, right, Definitely I recognized his faith after he kind of said that, and it kind of kind of jogged something to me, So I was like, oh, not, well, I oh cool, and I guess what I said, but not in a

11:18 way where it was glorified or anything, but it was kind of like, oh yeah. Yeah, before we get too deep into Chandler, kind of like we were talking about, can you tell us how long did you say you were in there in twenty twenty one? And maybe just how you whatever you're comfortable sharing, got to that. Yeah. I'm originally from Milwaukee, and I had I was working in Madison from time to time by contract and whatnot, and I had picked up a case a new case in medicine that I completely intended to fight. So yeah, I at that point, I believe I was in it for about two and a half months. I believe the pod was for a there's several pods, but it was a fifty man pod and as was right around when he came in. He he wandered into my life that way.

12:25 Can you uh, you know, we can cut this part out, but do you want to talk? I noticed your point puts it on Reddit about heroin being a hell of a drug, hepsy, Do you want to share any of that? Yeah, I guess I could. Yeah, Uh, heroin is one hell of a drug. And I'm glad I put that behind me for for quite a while now, for for a number of years. And yeah, thank you, thank you. And you know, uh, I had a very dark period in my life where two extremely close people of people to me died and I spiraled into a very dark period and I just let my my addictions go completely and ended up ended up doing stupid things for money, and I totally regretted. And I'm just happy that's over.

13:23 And yeah, glad to move on and keep it moving, as they say. Yeah, definitely, And you said one other thing. It says you're on your Reddit profile it said found out I'm dying in real life? Are you okay? Are you gonna all through with. Yeah? No, I I that was okay, Well that was updated. That was that's that's my ship post account. And that was a ship post account that I created before I went in in twenty twenty one. I have it updated the bio or anything. I just kind of logged in and ended up going down the channel or rabbit hole a little bit to see what people were actually saying about them. So, yeah, I am happy to say that I'm not dying iron Ralan. The reports to be dying have been greatly exaggerated.

14:19 Okay, well that's good to hear. Well, yeah, can you tell us a little bit about what's uh, you know, like, so you got this feeling like I kind of want to check on Chandler. Did you just discover the subredit last night? Had you been on there before? And like what what pushed you to be Like, Okay, I want to share a few letters and do ama on there. Well, I remember talking with him while we were together. You got to understand that you're around people twenty four to seven, like in real life you. You know, you run into friends, you talk to him online once in a while, you text them, you run into them for coffee or something, and then you catch up. You know, there's no real catching up in jail because everything happens in real time and you get to witness all that.

15:14 So conversations tend to, you know, go all directions. So eventually the topic was, well, you know, I'm getting out well before you are if everything goes terribly, so she you know, being online savvy, ready savvy, all those other all the other social media platforms. I asked them, well, you want me to do anything for you, look into some things for you, and he was nicely, whatever, I mean, you got to live your life and whatnot. But as a solid of course, I try not to throw them under the bus or anything, and I try to remain objective, you know. He We had many conversations about many things, but some things and due to an extenuating circumstances that the jail brotherhood experience is is an odd bond that you share with people, and I that's why I don't wish to make any speculations or throw anything out there that would damage his chances for appeal or anything that you know, the American Constitution guarantees you regardless of innocence or guilt. And like I had said on the subreddit that I just never passed the judgments on the guy because one, it is kind of counterproductive in an enclosed

16:45 system like jail, where you have to basically be a bedfellow of this guy literally and the guy is living right above you, and you're trying to be the most hospitable type of guy you can be, and I shared with incredibly unstable people. And obviously, when you first meet the guy, and then his reputation has definitely preceded him, you're a little apprehensive at first. But after a while it became very apparent that this guy was just a dude. He was just a dude. He was a young guy, a little hip, a little dorky, and kind of like right up my alley, and so we joked about some memes and ship posts and stuff, and yeah, it just it just kind of clicked pretty quickly and kind of invited him into the uh, into the fold of the group of guides. And you know, some of those guys were I guess bigger fans of his alleged works than me.

17:52 I mean some of them were kind of enamored with them. Nine times on nine point one time you don't ask, you don't tell. You a little bit about when he was going through trial. Would he kind of get called out for the day and then come back. Or yeah, it kind of it came. We kind of had a lighthearted joke, Oh, he's going off, he's going off to work, because it was it was a pretty constant nine to five schedule that he was keeping. So he would get up for count, we'd have breakfast, we'd go back to our bunks and chill out for a couple of minutes, and then he would end up usually getting up a little bit before me, and then he would be sitting with coffee and kind of doodling watching morning TV because morning morning is a surprisingly tranquil time in at least the pod that we were in, and so you can you can hear the TV. Everything's really quiet, and it's just kind of a refreshing thing compared to the cacophony of sounds and just activity that happened later later throughout the day that peaks in the evening. So it's a refreshing change of pace. He would get caffeined up, because that's the main vice in jail. In a few scoops of instant coffee and just get turnt, as we used to say, and then a movement deputy would come and pick him up and he would be gone for

19:22 the rest of the day. You would eat the same meal as everybody else in a holding cell when they would break the recess. But yeah, it would be an all day thing. I think it lasted. I want to say a few weeks, because towards the end of it, if I recall correctly, it was after all the deliberations or whatnot were through, but before the jury. I you know, I believe this was right around the time he was off the unit and there was a random COVID testing that procedure that was going on, and he was just, uh, he was he was out of the pod and everybody else in the pod had been clean and been tested negative, but he tested positive for COVID and he had he was asymptomatic. And you know, we actually have some speculation that was a false positive. It was taken under different circumstances than the rest of us in the pod. And to be honest, a lot of the healthcare workers that work in the jail work in the jail because they can't get a job at our actual hospital because they're not that good. And that's the sad truth about health care in jail. So, I mean, whether they botched it or not, he was brought up back to the pod

20:55 and then within minutes he was pulled back out again to move. So they packed up all those things again and there's like a small vestibule sally port, double doored thing right outside the pod, the door to get out to the hallway. And so he was, he was in this vestibule, and you know, I had a couple of his guys. We asked the death Hey, can we go up to the window say by to them, you know, make it quick. So went up there, I said, hey, this that the other thing. I'll keep in touch, et cetera, et cetera. So they moved him out. We're all pretty bummed, and then, you know, immediately we all started making conspiracy theories because of what else, What the hell else are you going to do in jail. They ended up moving him to a split pod, which is a twenty five man pod that was situated right next door to us, and it shared a fire door a emergency egg at fire door. So for a couple of days we were passing notes under this the fire door, just to kind of keep in touch with them. Needs to say, I was quite bummed. A lot of us were bummed. I got a new bunkie, kind of kind of a bummer.

22:13 So after about two weeks, I put in what's known as a kite. A kite is traditionally a note passed out of a cell blocker way, but in Dane County parlance, you put in a deputy request and you make up some bullshit like, hey, I'm being threatened. I don't feel comfortable here. There's someone in here that I have beef with on the street. And most of the time they'll be like, okay, they'll move you. And actually I had put into mental health and I told them that the just the large population in the pod was given me anxiety, which you know it does, absolutely does. So they moved me to a split pod on the same floor, but it was it was a different split pod, and I was there for about two weeks, and honestly it was boring.

23:13 There was nobody that played cards or anything or anything that I like to do. So I put in a request to leave that pod too, and through luck of the draw, I made it to Pods four, I where Chander was, and I remember walking up to the vestibule and I peered in and he's and he looks at me and his face lights up like a like a puppy strafe lights up like a puppy, and he starts waving at me, and I started waving back, and I and I, uh, I kind of pumped my fist a little bit. I you know, it was you know, if it was any more sappy, it would probably be like one of those cheesy eighties movies were too. A strange friend is running through each other at an airport, just running through each other's arms with ye kind of gotta be a little more low.

24:09 Tee than that in jail, right, So you guys were pretty close. I guess through being bunk baits. Was he a top or bottom bunk? Just just a phrasing. He was the top? He was? He was a top, And I guess that would make me the pop. Yeah, I had. Being that close to each other, you're going to form some kind of friendship bond. And it sounds like you guys had a lot in common. Yeah, you know, with just social media savvy, posting memes and stuff like that. A lot of guys in there are like mean guys are strictly drug guys. You know, they drugs, They deal drugs, and that's entire their entire life where they or they're online for doing much different things I'm not interested in. So you kind of pick the people that you want to hang out. And you know, I was never one for jail politics or sitting around discussing jail politics or gang politics or anything like that.

25:17 I consider myself a person irl. I live and thrive in real life. There's people that come to jail and immediately they're in their elements, and so I always feel slightly slightly clenched in parts because I kind of have to assimilate to a lifestyle that is not me. So I watched the trial as it was going on. Yeah, yeah, well, I think it's mostly just the highlights. I don't think there was any live footage. I don't think we had court TV. I don't know if it was even broadcast on court TV, but we did have a base fifty channel cable hookup, so we had some channels and we would watch. We watched three caps on the news, we used to call it check it out Sports Center for the highlights, That's what we used to call it. So and a lot of times it's hard because the media will focus just on what the prosecution says.

26:27 But then again in retrospect the trial, the defense really didn't put up any sort of case, you know, and so it's it's hard to kind of give both sides of the story when only one side is really being presented. I know some people will have take this aspodder, but he'll say he'll kind of go over the things that happened and explain these things in great detail, and then none of that stuff would be covered on the news or anything. So I was going to ask you about kind of related to that, is that I think you mentioned on Reddit that the defense went off script or he felt like they had a plan and then they didn't do that.

27:10 Can you think of any examples or what that. Yeah, the most big example that pops in my head was Chandler would say, Okay, they're telling me they don't want to object to these things because they don't want to be too aggressive against the prosecution, and then it would make them look bad for some things and whatnot. And I'm like, okay, well that kind of both bogus that they told you that, but okay, well if that's their if that's their game plan, and they and he said that the that their big move was going to be the closing arguments, and they had a twenty minute long speech dressing down a lot of things, which kind of kind of struck me as weird, because I mean, that would be something that you would kind of like to do while these witnesses are on the stand. But I mean, if you're just going to go for the last second hail Mary, then go for it. But as it turned out, they had maybe three minutes tops of some sort of closing, some sebilelances of a closing argument.

28:20 And he came back pretty pissed, And yeah, he seemed he seemed like, what the well, what the fuck? This isn't like anything that we had talked about. And I remember leading up to that he had shown me notes that he had written and in his lawyer's handwriting about things that they were going to cover, and it just didn't seem like that was anything that they covered. You know, do you think of any specifics? Then nothing really specific that I would like to kind of get into. I don't know if that's kind of something he would like to use in the future, but I do remember a lot more of an elaborate plan.

29:06 They were able to show the entirety of their closing arguments on the five o'clock news, So I mean, there really wasn't too much that they really went into. Did he tell you the closing argument was only three minutes? No, I'm making guests a bit there. Yeah, I said, I've just kind of gotten. Back out to society. I hadn't gone down the wormhole of actually watching the footage in its entirety. Oh man, so so much crap. Yeah. Yeah, I was alive for the OJ thing and I remember that well on TV. So yeah, I was curious about that. About the closing argument.

29:54 It's funny because I have about fifty questions I want to ask you, So I'm just going in a direction. But just just shoot a man, just throw up. It was, Uh, did you catch Chandler in any kind of and I know you guys were friends, but was there any anything you can think of where it was kind of seemed like he was maybe making up a lie on the spot or just anything like that. Or just lying about something that was unusual. No, However, there's a coveat to that, because, like I said, I really don't pry into people's cases or business that much.

30:38 So frankly he could have. He could have told me really anything, and I would just kind of accept it and not really pry into it. However, living in a jail society and how you conduct yourself on a day to day level, he appeared very truthful all the time, and the real straight shooter was a man of his word, always paid his debts. So I mean, really that's the only thing I can go off of because I had no contact to the outside world to kind of, you know, fast check anything. Sure. I think that's what fascinates I mean, myself and so many people about this case is that in so many regards he really was a normal person and then this this crime, which, of course you being friends with him, I understand giving him the benefit of the doubt and just and on the podcast, one thing I try to steer away from is just like neat Like, there's so many podcasts where you just sit around and say what a piece of shit you know, and everybody joined, which I get, I guess there's a place for that. But now now I'm left with the statement I was going to make, And I don't really know what what point I was say, but uh, is that I haven't been so convinced by a case such as Chandlers probably in

32:11 my life, like after watching the entire trial. Sure, it's kind of a thing where like, yeah, there's a point zero zero one percent chance that there was some And I know you can't like, I'm not sure why I'm posing this to you, because I know you don't want to. You know, you have a relationship with this guy and you don't want to throw him under the bus. But is there anything that you can speak to that in terms of you browsing redded maybe maybe learning about the case. Is it maybe talk about just your maintaining the neutrality or just something around that. Oh, well, you know, I you know you you're well aware. You're well aware that the overwhelming majority of people, oh swam don he's the other thing. I get it. I get it. The court of opinion, regardless or guilt or not.

33:03 That's it's a it's a real thing. However, being in a scenario such as jail, there is a certain resentment that you have for the penal system, especially when you kind of get the justice system, the penal system all that, when you're kind of upon in it, so you have it. Yeah, there's there's a big party that starts rooting for the underdog, you know, and the underdog's youth and people like you. Going back to when he was going through the trial, you said maybe he brought some notes back, which is something I noticed when I was watching it live, was that he was writing a lot. Did you ever see what he was writing. Was he like actually taking notes or doodling or do you have any idea?

33:52 Yeah, he was a dueler. I don't really think it was like in the terms of some people that duel just had like a like a nervous tick for anything or something to kind of just occupy a manual fixation or anything. But no, he did take notes. He did take extensive notes. A lot of it were things that he would give to his lawyer or discuss with his lawyer during through a break, or show his lawyer during the trial, things that he felt were indiscrepancies with what actually happened his side of events. So yeah, he would keep notes. Do you remember any of those? I mean, it probably would be hard to but any discrepancies that he brought up or mentioned to you, or anything he wrote down.

34:41 A couple come to mind, but I don't feel real comfortable sharing them with them with you unfortunately. You know. Yeah, one thing people really asked about, I know, you went into it a little bit on read it was his and cats relationship and specifically the like when it ended he remember was it a phone call he got where she ended it with him? Or I knew that they had shared text messages together because you could X for exorbitant fee on these tablets that were available to us. They for what it appeared, they continued in relationship for a while. Definitely, not not while the trial was going. That it was well over by then, I believe. So all the pre trial meetings and you know, all the pre trial dates and all that stuff, I believed that they were still together. He really didn't get into it all that much. Once in a while, you know, everybody kind of vents about, yeah, my girl be tripping and whatnot. So Chandler was kind of more on the edge of like, oh it really it really upset and that Tat had cooperated with the police to the point that she did a lot of things that he had said were like but he didn't have to give give them any He could have just

36:12 declined an interview or anything like that, or beyond that. I really didn't get too far into that. I knew that they continue to be together, maybe probably on an open level, probably on a level where they were probably broken up but still talking. It kind of came to a point where I believe that she probably just winded over, but also at the same time, Chandler did too, because it was running him regged. But then again, you're in a very odd spot in your life, and it's very lonely in jail, and you know, familiar female voice is always appreciated, and to have that companionship your friends can't really give you, and it's it's rough. I understand why they hung on, probably as long as they did, but I really didn't sit down and ever listen to his phone golf. So that's that's for him, that's his moment to do what he does.

37:20 That was actually gonna be my next question. Have you listened to any of the or maybe are you aware of the phone calls between them? On YouTube? I think I saw a link fro him, and honestly, I would feel kind of dirty listening to it. I don't think. I don't think I could bring myself to do that, because I I've been you know, I've lost your relationship while while in jail, and it hurt and it sucks, and we're cordial to this day. But she's moved on and I moved on, and I mean the guy was under an intense amount of stress, and I know both already has probably said things. Yeah, it just feels like a private moment that I don't want to intrude on.

38:05 For them, it's a lot of it's very boring. To be honest, I just listened to it because I felt kind of compelled to to cover the story. That's what I think people are curious about as far as how or whyatt ended, because I think the last call we got was, you know, just a very happy, cheery call, and then that there were no more calls after that. Yeah. Yeah, To be. Honest, I think I think that it actually happened over a text like yeah, that makes sense if I remember correctly. I remember just one day he said, well me hatter over and I was just like you all right, and he's like, yeah, yeah, probably fine, And I kind of want to say that was a little bit of the end of it. He had some strong opinions about what happened, but he always was very into her. He was always very into it. He's an incredibly non confrontational rand a guy like he he doesn't have a temper, at least from what I've noticed. There was only one time that I have that he ever raised his voice, and it was actually to me. But yeah, in his defense, I was being very annoying one morning, and it was leading up to the trial. He was drinking his coffee, I think,

39:38 reading the paper, doodling and stuff, and I came by and I was kind of in a hyper semi manic sort of mood and I'm just kind of being goofy. And one of the things that I kind of turned him on to was like free word association. Like that was like a word game that me and tell my friends have done for years. Like, so you would say one thing and then like the next thing that comes to your mind, you know, just the most random things, and it can get pretty hilarious. So I was on one of those kicks and I was just kind of being annoying he and he did it. He just kind of just kind of slammed his pen on the table and he said, dude, please shut up. It's like firmly.

40:26 But he wasn't like screaming at me. You know, he didn't like get aggressive or anything. He was just being very assertive about it. And I was like, okay, I read you. You know I read you. So I said sorry, got up, gave me some space, did some other stuff. A couple a couple of hours later, maybe not even that, Larry he came up and he he apologized to me. They said, hey, I'm sorry, I'm just going through it last year right now. And I said, I get it. I get it entirely. I was being annoying. Sorry, Bud. We shook up, shook hands, and that was the end of it. Did he did you ever see him showing emotion that his parents were dead? You know, putting aside if he did it or not. Was he did you see it like mourning for his parents?

41:17 Not in like a traditional sense where you would like see, you know, tears streaming down someone's face. A lot of people like to like it into a psychopath, a sociopath being emotionless. He's just you know, eccentric in the way where he's very deadpan. As far as expressing emotions, it's not something that he does on an outward like an overly outward fashion him, you know, semi blowing up on me. Just registered, you know, two out of ten on my on My Richter scales being empathetic to his situation. But no, he did mention numerous occasions that he misses his parents.

42:06 Unpeeling the layers of the onion while you're in jail kind of leads. To well, if we could move on to a little bit more lighthearted, was that it seemed, at least from what I watched a trial, that he was a decent chef. Did he have any prison foods that he was good at making? Yeah, jail just before the unenlightened County jail commissaries mostly made up of rob and jodles, which is. The basic filler for making any Some we call them bricks, we call them hookups. You make some, you mix them with chips, and then you put some meat sticks or other sort of meats in there, and it becomes an incredibly salty and somewhat delicious, fatty eating meal for you and some friends. But he had a really good It was basically a honey mustard chicken recipe. Some of the inmates that opted for the kosher or halal diet would be given these chicken breasts instead of whatever cow hit spot or that we were eating that day, so that it was somewhat more desirable than overcooked noodles. A lot

43:38 of the more enterprising inmates would sell it off to other inmates for a noodle Chandler. I believe he was a Yeah, he was a coacher diet. He was a coacher diet and a couple of other guys had the halal diet, so he was able to for pure a number of chicken breasts. But he had this thing where he would take mustard packets and mix some I believe in packets of pickle and a couple of sweet and lows, kind of make a sauce more like a marinate, actually dipping in a zip black bag kind of land sit for for a while, kind of a jail house. Soouv and it, Yeah, it ended up very very nicely and for Mayo and it turned it into to turn it into a you know, a chicken salad sandwich instead of you know, dicking around and playing with video games. Not saying that's bad, but a lot of the valentime that he had in probably his early twenties slump or whatever, that kind of sentiment trip aimlessly. He could have got a job back a house at a restaurant, because I you know, I known a lot of guys who've done that, and it's a really cool job. Pays ship and I mean always, you know, always always tip your waitresses and try to send a shot back to the back of the house. Guys that he can. Anybody who was.

45:09 Listening, did he mention SpaceX or working for SpaceX at all? Yes, the SpaceX question. I recall him saying something about driving down there or visiting something or or maybe I'm just getting getting my wires crossed with something else. But yeah, he did express something that was involved with that, and I feel like that maybe he was doing that to try to appease his parents. He lost the SpaceX job because in his version, was a traumatic injury falling down the stairs. Was he showing that in prison? Like, do you remember anything about his fall?

45:54 He had talked about falling down the stairs and hurting his back his neck or something and having a cervical column. Is that what they call neck breaks, you know whatever, for a for a while and in the months leading up to that, And so that's that's how he, you know, had mentioned that to me. I'm just the messager here. I'm giving you. I'm giving you what was said to me, like I'm not, you know, I can't call him a liar because I you know, I didn't see any of this should happened, and I'm more invested in just kind of the day to day interactions with the guy.

46:35 Did he on that same line, did he ever talk about or wear a colonostamine bag or talk about having to that that was down the road for him. Uh no, No, I can't give me more context. To the Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm trying to think. The first time it was brought up, I think it was in his police interview. He talked about the fall. So when he fell down the stairs, he hit his head, which was a concussion, but he also hit part of his spine where it was going to cause eventual total loss of his legs, colnostomy bag. They were also going to have to draw a hole in his skull to like leave the pressure that the blood do you remember any of that? Did he ever have to get No?

47:32 No, no, we never talked about any of that. I know a few times I've said, yeah, you do have the right to remain silent, you know. Yeah, so anyone who's listening out there, listener, lamb, you do have a right to remain silent, and it's probably move you to exercise that. And then I'm sure you've probably heard of the dismemberments. Yeah. And then was there was there a ballistic match on the bullet to any specific gun or was it a was it a family gun or anything.

48:19 Yeah, it was an s KS style rifle that his friend had given to him that summer. Uh so Tarkov together. I've never played that, but I guess it's. Uh yeah, I don't even know what that is. It's like an online game, kind of like if you play online Call of Duty, I guess, and I'm massive multi yeah, and you just kind of meet up and you go into the game. But that was one of Chandler's favorite guns. So his friend was like, Hey, his friend was a gun nut, and you know, they would play online and whatever, and his friend kind of surprised him one day showed up. I mean, they planned this trip.

49:00 He was going to come see him, but it was like, hey, i'll give you this gun. He didn't really tell his parents because they were not He didn't know if they would disapprove, but he didn't know if they would approve. So there were five bullets missing. His friend gave him, like, you know, five hundred rounds of ammunition and there were five There was five bullets missing from one clip and they mastered. Yea. I vaguely remember hearing something. Yeah. I think that's just what you know, you talked about him being so normal, is that's what gets people so interested in this case because it wasn't just I think we all could understand, like even though it's a horrible thing like losing temper and like hurting someone you love, but the dismemberment and the so I don't know if you know this detail, but the skulls and the knees were burnt in the fireplace.

50:02 Yeah there, Yeah, that was that was pretty common knowledge around the pot. Uh. Yeah, no, it's just so extreme. I think that's it. And I'm not asking you to comment, but just maybe I don't know any kind of reaction or your thoughts. Uh, the way it was so. I The way I had heard it was he said that some neighbor had I don't know whether it was, you know, being interviewed by the cops post all this, or if he called into the cops, but but on the night of, but it was it sounds like somebody's grilling at three a m.

50:50 Or something like that, and you know, yeah, I mean, yeah, Devil's advocates. I mean, you know, you know, this is Wisconsin. We we strangers. We do stranger things with grilled. Everybody's grilling. Oh yeah, Well, I mean if it was New Year's Day, you would be out and four feet of snow grill. That's that's That's just the Wisconsin thing. So, I mean, you know, that didn't really strike me all that odd, you know, but you know, honestly. Did you see the were found in the soot trap in the fireplace. I heard it was bone fragments, remember it was from Yeah, I remember it was from Chandler or if it was through the news. I also had heard, and this maybe incorrect, that they couldn't extract DNA evidence, but if it's if it was dental, then I'm assuming yeah, they could probably figure that out pretty quickly.

51:51 Yeah, the tease, we're a dead ringer, and they did find something some like pieces of bone that they were able to like reconstruct. Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah. I mean it's kind of like you said, where it's you know, you kind of compartmentalize certain things to get through a situation. Like it's not really me passing any judgment on you or him, or it's just kind of like because I've even had about like the dismemberment because I don't know if this is another thing. I'm not sure if you heard he didn't you or not he but it wasn't used like he's or somebody saw through both femurs with like scissors and a rusty handsaw and you know they last.

52:55 But I mean, yeah, I mean like it it's just like it just seems like an amateur job. You know, I get it, and you know it's it's you know, and putting myself in the place of again, whoever did it? Uh, you know you're crime of passion, that's the desperation move. You know, whatever the circumstances that that caused it to happen. You know, you're obviously not one of her percent prepared to dismember a body, You're not, you know, I come, I come to the land of Damas, so you know, I get it, and I know, you know, you know there there's a bit of premeditation when it comes to something involving dissection, you know, or anything like that. And yeah, it's disposal of a body. And I one thing that we didn't talk about, I guess I could share this is, you know, in one of our more Gallos humor moments, we were talking about the fact that it was burning, burning on a torso and I feel so strangely laying this because I'm talking about a human life that is lost and it's but at the time, it's like it's compartment life. We're like, Chandler, you're not fucking stupid enough to know that you can't just burn a fucking human body in the fireplace, right And He's like, I know,

54:25 I am not that I'm too smart for that, and we kind of laughed about that, but that was just a conversation we had had. But you know, like jet fuel can't milk steel beams type type fucking beam shit. Right there, right right. Well, I think what surprised me too was how much actually was able to be burned. I mean there wasn't uh, the entire body was not attempted to be burned, but it was the heads and the knees, and then the torsos were cut up and then one was dropped at at uh. And this is kind of interesting. It wasn't one hundred percent match. But do you know about the pool at Cres's farm, that whole interaction, it's a little more.

55:19 It was it was a pool like a like a pond or was it like a like a like a swimming pool, swimming pool? Well, here, I'll tell I'll tell you the story and then i'll get it kind of get your take on it. So you know, Kat his girlfriend. Yeah, mom was either bisexual or lesbian, but she was in a lesbian relationship with a woman named Cress Crescent or but Chico by Cress. And yes I remember that. Yes, yes, she had a farm. And they all went out there on fourth of July and celebrated out to barbecue, and then Chandler came back the next day without cats and asked if he could use their pool to just kind of swim around and stretch his neck out and everything, and they said, yeah, sure, you know, go ahead. So he went up there, and they go up to use the pool because it's hot outs July and they wanted to use the pool, and they can't find Chandler anywhere.

56:22 They see his car in the back of it's opened and it's like parked out near the woods, and they're like, the pool still has its cover on it. So he didn't get in the pool. And this is July fifth, so it's four days after his parents went missing. They actually hadn't beneficially reported missing. But they're like, well, we're just going to get in the pool. You know, screw Chandler. We're hot. He'll come back if he's out walking. They thought he was probably smoking a joint, which they were really mad about. You know, they're like, oh yo. So they get in the pool. Chandler comes out of the woods. He asked if he can get in the pool, but he's kind of like a little bit. He looks a little bit off. They're not sure if he was high.

57:08 And Cress had her top offs, her boobs are out and she's like, no, don't come in the pool, and I guess he misheard them. So he jumped in the pool and then. Oh wait, yeah, yeah, yeah, continue this yeah, this is ringing something to me. Yeah, so he washes himself off a little bit, he's like sweaty and grimy, and you know, and then he's like, I gotta run. And then like a few days later, Turkey Vulture started circling and that's where they found his dad's torso was right out by the pool, like in the woods. There was just a little right little path where his car had been pulled up, and they found a rusty oil tanker and they found all the saws that whoever had used to dismember, and then in Cres's shed they found the SKS rifle.

58:03 Yeah. Yeah, I do remember hearing some of that. I know it was on TV or some news report that was mentioned. I don't recall if it was during the trial or if it was in the lead up to it. But no, that story does ring a bell to me. Yeah, but just not like. That. And that's pretty much what I remember out of that. There's I don't think I don't think it was anything really kind of we talked about. Yea, maybe there was, yeah, yeah, nothing nothing really rings the bell of anything that was, you know, as far as a reaction to that news coming out, I do remember I do remember that news breaking the timeline of which I don't remember exactly, but I do remember hearing that story.

59:11 Yeah, like in a hypothetical say it wasn't Chandler, Because this is what I try to do, and a lot of true crime is like approach something and to rule out someone, to kind of come up with alternate theory, like wondering because I just don't think cress or like maybe someone framing him kind of as a possibility if you wanted to frame someone, that would be exactly how you would where you would put stuff right. Like oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's a little on the nose. Don't you think, Yeah, exactly? Did he ever bring up any theory? I know you can't get too specific, but did he ever anybody who wanted to frame aim him or how to grudge against him or anything?

1:00:08 Yeah? But I don't feel like I can get into this because I feel, I feel, honestly, I feel if I bring you know, if I if I talk about it, it might be grounds for a lawsuit because it's it just strikes me as a big defamatory and I don't like to do same, especially people I don't even know. I've never mentioned you before in my life and just just relaying my theories of what he thinks and you know, the you know, the circumstances around it. Yeah, I'm just not uncomfortable doing that. No, that makes sense. I would actually, yeah, I would encourage you not to. So that's that's a good instinct.

1:00:50 I hate to disappoint of view the listeners. But yeah, well even if you probably would edit it out because like I don't want to, Yeah, that's not Yeah, but there were at least maybe thoughts of it could have been something like that. I guess is at least a possibility. Yeah, I mean, I didn't know the family dynamic. I didn't know. I don't know. Apparently they were an upper middle pass family. I'm sure in families like that, there's I don't you know. From watching TV, I know inheritance is a big motivator for a lot of things. I don't know how that's handled.

1:01:33 Many of the questions that I asked Wallace were scripted, but there were quite a few that I just threw out there off the cough that came into my head, and this was one of those. Looking back, I guess I wanted to try to gauge Wallace's level of commitment to the friendship with Chandler. You might say this question was somewhat of a test for Wallace. In my head, how would you assess the relationship the friendship with Chandler if hypothetically he was to get out of jail. Would you like watch the trial and be like, what was this guy? Like did he get out? Or would you just kind of continue kind of your current thoughts on him or just curious?

1:02:18 Ah, yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't think that would be something that would that would I don't know, maybe well, I know that together, like like I mentioned that we'd like to doodle and draw together, Like we used to draw comics theirs together, and they were really fucking hilarious if I say so smart so say so myself. But uh, one come a couple of times of reoccurring kind of trope in these in these comic strips were alternate reality buttons because me and him out doing normal guy stuff, you know, out on the streets, and I tried I kind of did it as you know, something something if it's if circumstances were different, you know, I could see myself being a being a buddy with you, and like one thing was like, hey, get on your get on your Sunday best buddy. We are going out to eat with the ladies tonight. And I drew a little picture of him and picture meme will word bubbles and he's like, oh, that's awesome. What where are we going? And then on the final panel it was like it was a it was a Robin noodle house, and it was really excited because uh oh, I haven't had Robin in in so many years. And the joke is because I mean, you know,

1:03:50 Robin is so ubiquitous in jail. You know, you get out of jail, you never want to see Robin, right. It's ax pretty funny. Did he mention I know you said you hadn't heard of Tarkov, but did he mention gaming at all in jail? A little bit? I'm not a gamer myself. I've mentioned on that Reddit stub thread I don't know five five plus XP from HPV, So I really am not a not a gamer. A couple of my exes were, yeah, I get it, just not my thing. There were a couple of guys in our click that were gamer guys, and I'm sure Chandler talked games with them, and like, like when I would go off on tangents about you know, it's like when you're when you're talking about what you do professionally, and then you kind of start using jargon from your your technical field. People get lost really easy and it's kind of, oh, you're just speaking Greek to me.

1:04:53 And so it's not that I would tune him out, but I was tuning him out because I didn't to. Me, did he was he reading a lot? One of the things he said was like he read twenty books or something. Did you see him reading? I went back and searched through the phone calls to see if I could find the exact times that Chandler mentioned reading, and I found a couple. I'm sure you read a lot of books on learned some fancy words. I have read a lot, yeah, and wrote it a lot. I've read I don't know, maybe twenty five books so far.

1:05:36 At the beginning, No, she did he wasn't that big of a reader. I was, And yeah, I enjoyed a lot of classics and stuff. So I tried to like kick him up to him, like make sure Jorian Gray or like sure lack Holmes, or like some of the classic things, and you know, I couldn't you know, Gasby or something like that. I always enjoyed, like you know how I kind of painted a picture with the words, and this is how I kind of explained it to him, that it's kind of like a picture made up words. But you know what, whether that took or not, I don't know his current tastes in books. At Dane County, we had personal radios that we I think I think we all bought our second hand from other other guys.

1:06:28 We trade some stuff and whatnot. So we did have radios and that was our number one form of escape or listening a little, yeah, a little personal handheld radios with your ear buds on him. So and actually Madison has a pretty decent selection of independent radio stations with that I really enjoyed listening to that night. So that was pretty cool. So I would get the He's Hot off the presses, indie alternative music that you know, that's the type of music I love, post punk and alternative.

1:07:11 So I would play these songs for him the next day, you know, like Japanese breakfasts be Sweet, or like all these other tunes that I had heard the night before in this indie radio station. So I would try to hit him to some better tunes, because yeah, he would listen to complete white Bread Country. It's like top forty fucking country, and I mean there's nothing wrong with that, I guess. But he struck me as a guy that had a lot of potential in esoteric field of art. Yes, I come from an art background, and so esoteric forms of art and music are things I grab taped towards and since we he just struck me as I would say sheltered, but just not the type of guy that had the wherewithal our tools somewhere along the way, like you know, maybe when he was like twelve to kind of branch out and say, hey, this music speaks to me, right maybe, So that's what I try to impart out him.

1:08:23 The second half of today's interview is really a reunion story. We'll be right back after a quick break. If you want to support the show, it takes less than one minute to sign up for Patreon and it costs less than one coffee a month. Patreon dot com slash tapes from the Dark Side. But as going back to the books at Dodged, they have a much better library I ended up having to do three months there at the tail end of of everything, after I signed a bullshit clea ad barn and whatever.

1:09:07 Plus they could treat my hepatitis C there from my past life as a heroin enthusiast that they won't do at County, and I knew my liver was in pretty pretty bad disrepair. To be a lot cheaper, I just got to fucking state to pay for it. So so in the three months that I was there, I was able to be reunited with him. And I had to go to ancient HSU Health Services unit and have a physical done for me. And every time, you know, every time in the hall, I'd walked past the kitchen, and last I had heard from him, he was working in the kitchen. So when I sat down in Hsu, I'm sitting there and I'm, you know, I'm just shaved my head bald. I look like a fucking peel boiled potato.

1:09:53 And I'm just sitting there and I'm trying to keep my head down but trying to keep my head on swivel a little bit. And there's this fucking kind of kind of nerdy looking kid looking at me. He's got like he's got those dammer aviators on, and he's just like looking at me. He's like hey, and he says my name and Hey, it's me, and I'm like looking at him, I'm like, who the fuck are Who the fuck is this? Yeah? And and then I go back because because I'm I can't talk to him out in the open, he'll be conduct report. So then the nerds calls me back and as I'm passing through the doorway, I look back at him and then he smiles at me, and I'm like, holy fuck, that's Chandler. It's on my way out. I'm like, how are you? And I'm gotta whisper everything, and you know. So the following week, I was set up to start taking my hepatitis medication and I had to go every morning down to h You from the block or the barracks that I was eventually situated in. And he had just gotten a job as a clerk in Hsu. So every morning around eight o'clock, I would be called, my past would be called to go down there. I would travel down there and I would see him. I'd be waiting a long line, a long methodon esque line of people waiting to get whatever

1:11:27 controlled medication or or whatnot that they would have to go specifically to the HSU or instead of just keeping on person or being administered by the death or the correction officer on the unit. So I would get to talk to him once in a while, and you know a lot of times it was we just kind of just look at each other and kind of smile. And it sounds, you know, it sounds, it sounds a little fruite, but honestly it was. It was a really kind of nice moment to just see someone that you don't and that you consider a friend. And then he started engineering his breakfast break where he would be able to go back to his unit and have breakfast to coincide with me walking back to my unit, so we would be able to chat a little bit in the hallway. We'd have to walk single file line and you know, within the little shoulder alley, red tape gun line in the in the in the hallway, and so we'd be able to shoot the ship a little bit and talk a little bit of stuff. Hey, when you get now this, that and the other thing went to your last dose. Hey, I sent to you another another letter and you should be getting in the mail that we were trying to work a way of getting streamlining it by getting our letters said to each other through institutional mail since he worked at HSU. But nothing ever came of that. Maybe

1:12:57 I shouldn't even said anything about that. I don't want to was his job, as anybody he was about that. But but yeah, yeah, it was always it was always nice to see him. And then one day the eight weeks or whatever, it was up for my medication, so I never saw him. That was probably the last time I saw him. And I was my release date early April of this year, early April, so my release date was late April, and I remember a couple of days before I think about a day or two before I got out, I wrote a letter to him, and I I started out with the cheesy you know, dear John Trope of like dear Chanler, by the time you read this, I would be gone. And you know that was I'm sure he got the humor in it, but I did put I did put in there that I you know, I intend to fully continue correspondence with you. I'm here for you, but you know I got your back. Yeah, A big thing that affects you while you're incarcerated is abandonment, and I do have abandonment issues myself. And you know, I went through a breakup while incarcerated. Ducks, and people

1:14:29 lose loved ones while they're incarcerated, not able to go their go their funerals. It's hard. It's it's hard. And so I mean, I'm obviously he doesn't have many people standing bile. I know, I know he had talked to his grandmother a couple of times. That was about the extent of any family interactions that I had ever heard about. So I mean, I. Did his talks with his grandma. No, I just the fact that, yeah, I talked to my grandma today and I said, oh cool, how'd that go? And He's like, yeah, good, it was really good, you know, just happy to hear for me. And I think maybe she threw a couple of bucks on his books. I don't remember, you know, and really, you know, but I did.

1:15:20 I did remember hearing something about that a couple of times, and I was happy for him. But yeah, speaking of family, I know you probably this was probably one thing you can't talk too much about. But his relationship with Mitch turned south or already was south. Do you remember anything about that. Yeah, he he didn't have very many strong words about uh about his brother. Yeah, that's about as far as I really want to go into that. Yeah. Tchah. Again, I don't know. I don't. I don't know the gentleman, so yeah, I I don't. I don't feel like getting involved or just fanning anybody. I don't really know.

1:16:09 Yeah, and they didn't talk shone at all that you know of. No, No, I don't recall him ever saying that they were on speaking terms at all. And uh no, definite like that. No, And I'm guessing the answer is probably no. But I have to ask did he talk about they're growing up or anything him and his brother, or maybe any childhood abuse or anything we along those lines. No, Actually everything he said kind of just checked out, is like leave it to beaver kind of stuff, you know. Just yeah, he had a great childhood, he was happy. Yeah, And then I was like, geez, them guys had all the luck, right and yeah, so yeah, nothing nothing that ever.

1:17:00 Nothing everyone's raised about any at trauma. And I know trauma is a motherfucker, so you know, I get it. So weah, but nothing was ever raised about that. And nothing like with him and Mitch growing up that he's said specifically. No, I recall that they they he said something about them being being cool for a while. I don't know if he was a sibling, right, Yeah, I don't even know how that would go or it's one event kind of fucked it all up. But yeah, yeah, that's about it. On a different vein, but a similar kind of contact, he said he got some freaky fan mail. Can you say anything about it?

1:17:46 Uh? Sure, yeah, he Uh occasionally, I'm not gonna say that, like they had to bring in like stuffel bags or like stack up bags full of mail, just dumping it. But every once in a while he would get he would get a random sending him send him a letter or two. I would too, but I'm way less. But and mine were never fucking cool. They were always just some fucking turkey motherfucker and some other prize. And now I'm like, I, who the who the fuck are you? But no, he got some uh he had, you know, he had a couple of murder group. He's like, wow, okay, some were very attractive, and I don't know, I was kind of kind of a bit fascinated with that. And it's always I always could appreciate the rock stars and the culture of personality and all that, and so it fascinated me.

1:18:44 Do you know if he's in a really like is he dating anybody that you know of? In a few of his letters, he was. He did talk about talk about some relationships, but uh, a relationship. Come to think of it, probably she's probably gonna listen to this, and uh, probably I shouldn't say too much more after that. But yeah, during the early days of all the publicity all that, there there were a couple of a couple of uh, I guess murder groupies and they some were really cool. They shared some row. He ended up giving me a lot of not the letters, but like the things that they were including on Lyris.

1:19:29 There was one that included, believe it or not, vintage Playboy magazine articles. You know they always say, oh, I just read it for the articles, Well she did, and so like vintage seventies Playboy articles, an old poem by shel Silverstein that was very very cool, a little bit of a bit of almost borderlining on long body limericks, so that was kind of cool. Some photocopies of paintings they did and whatnot. And I enjoyed that in the color, you know, just seeing vivid colorations and things that was kind of cool some or maybe a little disturbing or some of the things that he kind of relayed to me, And we kind of had a laugh about that not being freaked out by it, because I mean, at that point, I mean, are you really going to be freaked out by anything? After being desensitized to the tired situation and then you're locked inside of a wall, like what the fuck are these people actually going to do to you?

1:20:28 I don't know. After a while, some of it kind of became tedious where it's like this is kind of like a fly buzzing around while I'm circling the drain kind of a thing. So I know he had put a stop to a few of the ones. But then again, if somebody is if you're destitute and you have nobody to fucking throw ten dollars on your books so you can get some in a couple of hos and ding dongs and or some napella, are you really going to say no to them? Right? Yeah? Another question about just your relationship with him. I know you said at one moment where kind of lost his temper but it was like a two out of ten.

1:21:13 Did you have any moments and even if it wasn't like anger, but any moments where you generally or had any kind of fear of him, just like, oh what if he did do this? And now I'm did you have any moment like that? No? No, I mean not no, and which and what I'm thinking about is times of what could be maybe construed as a fearful scenario while in jail, like a confrontational scenario. This was say in ordery inmates, you know, not chant or just a random guy that's having a shooting day, doesn't like to look on your face, doesn't like your fucking skin color, doesn't like your sexuality, and then it escalates to a level where the confrontation becomes an alternation that I know, even that never struck fear in me. So I don't know, maybe I'm the wrong guy to ask that because I maybe our compartmentalization or just my comfort around the guy. But you know, I usually I usually I'm I'm a pretty empathetic person that picks up cues pretty well. But no, never however, as

1:22:46 I'm you know, rambling on about whatever whatever shit I'm talking about, I just remembered something. There was an instance there there was a group of younger African American gentlemen that kind of took exception to him. They were some gangster, want to be type guys that were eager to kind of please the old the og crowd. And then, you know, so seeing young white boy all over the news allegedly kills his parents, you know that, you know, like that white boy be tripping, you know. And so for people that say that they live on a fringe of society where guns and violence is an everyday thing, which I get and I understand because I grew up in a very dangerous part of Milwaukee, they were disgusted and actually felt threatened by just his you know, just his alleged crime.

1:23:51 Oh he's a serial killer. Oh I've never been around to serial killer. This guy's freaking me out. Instead of like, you know, what you think would happen of them, like you know, ganging up on them and jumping them, they actually put in several requests to the deputy and try to kite him out. And uh, that younger African American group did. Yeah, And it was and we had heard that it was kind of put together by an older an older member of the gang that actually we never had an issue.

1:24:31 We kind of we all existed out of separate kind of zone from them, but we were always tordial to be fraid a lot of times. And this this just sounds fucking silly coming out of my mouth, because yeah, this is not how I run my normal data day life or the or the things I believe in. But jail politics are what they are. They felt that maybe our constituents, constituentancy of the people that we hung out with, which which was inclusive but was predominantly white. Uh, maybe that we were getting too large or something. We had heard something about that, which is fucking preposterous to me, and you know, kind of weird, gross, but regardless, I mean, he was the big He was probably the biggest name out of anybody in the pod. I mean, there was a mysticism about Chander because just the I guess the exoticness, if that's the right word of the crime, you know, of the chartist, a gang land style of shooting of two parents. I mean, yeah, that's the news worthy dismemberment, you know, coupled with.

1:25:50 The fireplace thing. Yeah, the fireplace thing. Let's let's not forget about the fucking fireplaces. It's a whole package that's like wow, oh yeah. And his I think it would be different if he was more of a quote unquote psychotic character, you know, but his even keeledness is just no violent history. And I think at least that's what fascinated me and going into it. You look at him, you read everything. You're like, this kid couldn't have done this, you know, you read the details, and I think that's what that's what true me, and you know, it's just not possible, Like this is way too.

1:26:32 You know, yeah, I way too. I know. Uh yeah. Pleasant guy said please, said thank you, made eye contact with you. He was witty, he was slightly charismatic when he wasn't extroverted. He wasn't introverted. He was just he just existed. And I don't know I dug him, though, Man, what can I say? I think the chances of Chandler getting out are and maybe you'll disagree with me, but I would say less than a thousandth of a percent. Maybe it would have to take almost a miracle.

1:27:23 Yeah, I mean, yeah, you know, I forgot what the actual terms of the senses are made to the lighten at this. But it's natural life, isn't it. So he's eligible for parole right after twenty some years. No, it's uh no parole. Okay, all right, yeah so that makes sense. Okay, Yeah, So, I mean, you know, granted if they're if appeals go through and there's the grassy Knoll type thing that comes out that proves it his innocence, which I gotta say, I hope happens. I'm you know, I'm not delusional about it, but you.

1:28:04 Know, I hope that I I mean, I. Yeah, I mean the family deserves closure. There. There deserves to be a exclosure, and at this at at the rate or at the at where it is, I mean, there's no complete closure in a period of twenty four hours. I've been thrust in this position. I guess the onus is on me because I'm the first guy of our group to get up again. I'm I'm not one of his childhood friends. I can't comment on any of that stuff. I just knew the guy while well the ship was hitting the fan. You know, right, Well, let me ask you this. That's kind of a follow up. If if hypothetically appeals fail, I think he's on one of his last ones, and he's not on death row, so you won't get those appeals, you know, they get to go through an exhaustive list.

1:29:00 Yeah, we don't have that here. You think if hypothetically he exhaust his appeals and he's you know, basically in there for life, do you think he would ever give an interview specifically to me. I'll put in a good word for you, I guess, But judging by his personality, I don't know how how how of an entertaining uh interview it would be. I mean, just by the nature of what it is, it would be entertained, all right, I get it personally if I if I was, if I was in that situation, as soon as the last huge drops, you kind of got to be like, well and reserve yourself to the this to the rest of your life, you know, yeah, and just be like, well, accept you know, the five stages of grief or whatever.

1:29:51 And even you know, I'm not sure maybe you can speak about his spiritual reality, But even if he was an atheist, there's something about like confession and clearing your conscience that can kind of heal the soul. I think, I don't know, I've experienced that in my own life, even though I'm sure tendencies. Do you do you think did he ever show his spiritual side or does he have any Uh? It's interesting question. I did mention that he uh preferred the Kosher diet. He did make some uh some some light Jewish humor. I do have some some distant Eastern European Judaism in my my lineage.

1:30:40 That's why. That must be it high aim so so uh yeah, we uh so. I know that was something that was kind of on his radar as far as like a standard Western religion. I don't think any of the major ones was anything that he would adhere to. I did kind of open his eyes to Buddhism. There were some Buddhist tracks and things, paganism, and then the obligatory stationism and the imagery of like Motley Crue and just being a fan of you know, cheesy eighty schlock metal. You can't forget the pandogram in there, so like, well, if people think you're a monster, you might as well fucking embrace the fucking dark side, buddy. And we had a good laugh about that. But yeah, gallows humor again, you know.

1:31:37 Right, Yeah, I've always thought about like if I was in the see say I exhausted my appeals, like, would I, you know, with the shell harden before I was able to maybe decide confessing or telling everything in my version of it, if that would Because of course his defense was so passive, we didn't even get a version of even if it was untruthful what he said or so it just left everybody kind of wondering, well, what would what would he say? You know, and I'm sure you saw that all I ever read it, people say, well, what what's his or you know, so that's just my curiosity if you ever maybe would reach that point, and I guess time will tell.

1:32:21 Well, well, here's a fun fact. The famous any lawyers listening reach out to me speech that he made at the end was actually written by me, No, really predominantly by me. I mean we you know, me and a couple of the other guys kind of sat around and we kind of brainstormed about it. And the story about that was like, typically at the at the end of a trial, when you're found guilty or you're signing a plea bargain, they wanted you to sign this thing reading that either you plan to appeal, you're not sure, or you have no plans to appeal, And he told and he told us that his lawyer was pushing him to say he doesn't plan to appeal. And the reasoning behind and and the reasoning behind that that was explained to him and then explained to us was that if he checked off that he does not plan to appeal, then maybe Judge Hyland will have a little bit more not so much leniency, but he wouldn't have the tendency to completely just shit cannon and maxim out right, because if he sees that you have a planet appeal, we the's fuck you that, you know? So, so you know you play your appealing, well, I'll just give you the max, just just to be sure, you know. So yeah, that was the reasoning that was explained to us, and and

1:33:54 so we were like, well that's that's kind of fucking shisty as hell. And he made sure that he checked he's not sure yet. I don't know if it was me came up with like, look, you're going to have a second top. What are you going to talk about it? Right? It's like I don't know, Well, this is going to be a perfect opportunity to state that you feel like you're being railroad. Traditionally, they're gonna you know, people are going to express remorse or it's it's for however long you talk, you're gonna be under the absolute microscope and it's going to be the biggest rotation of this thing is going to be hearing your voice for the first time.

1:34:45 So why not use that as a platform to reach out for legal representation that wire better more aggressively fight for your costs, right, instead of just kind of sitting there thumbs up their fucking asses. So well, that's the way we We were like, okay, but how do we phrase it? You have to phrase it right where you're not admitting guilt or you're not admitting innocence either. We're not pleading for innocence because then it's big color the appeal and everything after that, because I mean, at that point this is going to be admitted into evidence in the appeal anyways. So I so that then you got to be dead pants. You can't fucking go over the ham on on the emotions and not that he's that expressive anyways. So three three or four lines just plainly delivered politely but assertedly. You know, that's that's the best thing you can do. And I mean you go too far into it where you start, you know, I wish this never happened, or even just a key word or a diff it your toe into a I regrets. It's gonna be under the microscope. They're gonna be fucking flying down a reddit hole. So fast with with Nancy Grace and all those motherfuckers. They're they're gonna be shitting on you immediately. I mean, obviously he got shit on for

1:36:16 and you know we you know, we expected that, but the number one thing that he wanted was to find somebody to kind of pick it up pro boto, you know. And I mean, yeah, and you know I'm Devil's advocate again. I mean, if you make your if you you can make your fucking career, if you you know, get fucking Cambra haul this enough, if you can prove that that the guy didn't do it, and what the fuck You're made for the rest of your life right there? You know? Yeah? It uh, And it kind of strikes me as one of those situations where you have to pick one or the other. Like if you're gonna if you're gonna say no appeal, then you're gonna throw yourself at the mercy of the cord and apologize and remorse. But if you're gonna go the opposite way, it's like one of those make or break moments. Am I gonna choose this path or this path? And yeah, I mean for for for the path he chose. I think you know, you have the football. If you're down by fifty points, you might as well be going in the air.

1:37:24 You know, you might as well, you know, And none of us were fucking delusional. We saw this was playing out. We're not fucking idiots. Here, Yeah, exactly, So we knew. At that point we had you know, I feel like I'm part of his fucking dream team. I'm a part of his jail house dream team of lawyers. But no, we were like, the best thing you can do is just fucking try to the mulligan. Yeah right right, Yeah. As we're winding down this interview, you're gonna hear maybe a little bit angst in my voice. Part of me just wanted to shake this Wallace guy and say stop writing letters to Chandler Alderson. He's a sick, psychopathic, remorseless son of a bitch. I never said those words, but that's kind of how I was feeling internally, and looking back now listening to this interview almost a year later, I can see how kind of childish that perspective is.

1:38:25 This man Wallace had a friendship with Chandler based on an extremely unique set of circumstances and given Wallace's background with heroin and I imagine background doing other types of things that heroin addicts. Do you know the types of things that land you in county jail? He established this relationship on the foundation of non judgment, and I guess if I were in his shoes, I can't say I wouldn't do the same. I respect Wallace, I can't say I respect his decision to continue his friendship with Chandler outside of jail, but that's his decision. It was a pleasure talking with a man, and I'm extremely grateful he took the time to sit down with me and share his thoughts. Here's the end of our interview. Thank you for listening. Yeah, I think if I had like you, you strike me definitely as an intelligent guy. And let me just ask you. Some people non related, but you're not a flat earsther or like a somebody. Okay, Yeah, I didn't think so. But I feel like if.

1:39:37 I had Holocaust deniers or. Adel like, if I could get like if I and I'm not even saying do this, this is kind of besides the point. But if I could present to you the evidence from the trial in about ten minutes, it would, of course, it would mean you're taking me at my word that the trial was there, but or the trial was that I'm representing it fairly. But I think you would be like, yeah, there's it would be almost similar to being down by fifty points with two seconds. Yeah, And I get it. I get it. Yeah, I get it. But it makes sense why you get it? Yeah, yeah, I mean it makes sense for you to have the attitude towards him that you have in your position. I think I would probably have a very similar.

1:40:29 It's a strange thing, man, it's a strange brotherhood, you know. And you know, I don't know. I take I take friendships very seriously and I try to be a man of my word the best. I can, you know, And I think that's yeah, I. Get it, I get it. But you got to support your fucking boys, you know, And you know I I do. I do completely understand the the heaviness of this case. And I know that that I'm that sometimes I make references and kind of glib approximation and stuff, but it's it's you kind of just had to have been there, you know. And it's maybe it's just like I catch myself saying that some of these things I'm talking about in reference to what happened, I'm just like, yeah, it's it's it's just a weird levity that you have to add to something so so heavy, you know.

1:41:38 Yeah, well, I think I've exhausted all my questions. Thank you talking man, appreciate it. Yeah, man, it's it's been. It's been fun. Yeah. Can you think of anything else related to anything else you want to say about Chandler or anything in general. Apparently he likes to wear baseball hats. It his in his in his previous Like, I don't know, that's about it. I I would cut his hair. I was like, you have you have wonderful hair, Chandler, right, Yeah, I was. I was the UH. I was the trial barber. I would cut his hair in jail. We UH had access to these really shitty, beat up wall hair clippers. And I taught my own hair, and I had family and ex girlfriends that were estheticians and stuff, and uh, so I was I know how to cut hair, so I was like, let me cut your hair, and I gave my hair cut and he absolutely loved it. Uh there's there are there's footage of a couple of times where he kind of has a little alfalfa sprout thing coming out the back of his theme, back of his nowgat But he liked it, so I kept it there for him.

1:42:55 So that was that was a personal aesthetic decision by him. So I first we thought it was a little a little over the top, but hey, he likes it all. Right, man, Well thanks again, I do appreciate it. Yeah, maybe we'll be in touch. If you ever have any updates or anything, feel for. You to man, Yeah, yeah, absolutely if anything jogs my mind or when I get my response back. Dealing with mail going to Dodge Correctional, it goes to a intermediary place that scans it, puts it on, puts it in an email, and then it gets sent to Dodge and so there's like a two week long leg in between sending and actually receiving. There's also a way of sending like a direct they they're called text behind they're like basically like text messages. You can you can send them and that's a little bit quicker, you know what.

1:44:00 To get a crew to the first right or something. Yeah, something along the lines that for the visits the video business, you have to get approved. As far as I think it's just an app or something, I'm not exactly sure. I haven't really looked into it, but I got a few few texts behind well I was in, so I think it's just an app. It's a you have to pay for it though it's texting. Told me I needed to be like preapproved. My number had to You had to basically like would have to put my number in and say this person can message me.

1:44:40 Wasn't at wasn't while he was at Dane County. Yeah, it was recent within the last month. I kind of looked into it. Oh, within last month. Yeah. Yeah, it's text behind dot com or text behind app. Look into that. I'll look into it too. Otherwise you could just kind of snail mail them, but it will take a very long time. I don't know if he tried that. Before, but oh, I will say that's too. I had this on just as one thought to you. And closing is if he did do it and kind of like he's trying to make the best of a situation, and you kind of feel a friendship or as much as whatever kind of friendship that is, you know, a little bit different than usual. But uh like at least if I was in that situation, I kind of already said this, but like if if someone did hypothetically, if someone did do that and they had no appeals, confessing or clearing their conscience would probably be the best thing for that person, A hypothetical person, you know what I mean. Just kind of like my closing plea to the to the world, to the universe is kind of because yeah, I don't know, it's just crazy.

1:46:00 I mean, you know, if if if the last few drops, you know, and uh, it's it's all over with. I mean, he might but he might just take take it with him, take you with him to the to the soap factory, you know, absolutely, So I go, though, I guess it's anybody's it's anybody's guess what's gonna happen. I I sincerely hope the best for his mental state, you know, I know it's going to be tough. Yeah, I mean, he's a he's a human being and a bit a bit understated but eccentric in a way. But he's still a human being too.

1:46:49 One last question about his because I've had nightmares about the case, not not, you know, it's whatever. I've had nightmares. Imagine how I felt. That's such undo the guy every day. Yeah, but like, okay, do you know that? So the dismemberment, Like, one thing I'll have nightmares about is the false starts on the bones, so like to saw through a few yeah, and saw the first time is not going to catch so you kind of have to keep going and keep going. And the way that the bone broke is almost like at the very end it was just ripped from the limb and then the rest of it was sawed off.

1:47:32 You saw a branch and they just kind of kick it off. Yeah, like I got splintering or something. Did he ever have nightmares or did you ever see him having bad dreams or anything? Uh? No, not that I recall. Actually, jail is for me personally. I have very very very vivid dreams in jail, none of them not altogether unpleasant ones. I don't know a lot of people have the same same thing. Some of the theory the main theory is that it's the fucking it's the flavored drink packets they gave me up.

1:48:16 But I mean that's a little bit of a conspiracy powerwash. I think I think it's more so the lack of stimulus that and that your mind is just kind of making up for it while you sleep. And sleep was my favorite time because I would get to see my parents, I would get to fly, I would get to be outside, I would get to be doing things that I love doing. And I have these very lucid dreams, so I was always looking forward to that. But I recall him talking about his dreams sometimes nothing you know, too too out of the ordinary or anything, But I don't. He was a very very quiet sleeper, you know, it didn't toss and turn all that much. He was on a pretty heavy medication that you know that the nursing staff is very eager to pass out. It's hard to get a fucking anti biotic in jail, but they'll give you. They'll give you these shitty fucking s s R S S I S s R I UH tranquilizers to sedate you pretty easily. But do you know.

1:49:26 Something? Uh? I do but I don't know I think that's a hippo violation. I'm gonna have to plete the fifth on that one, you know, But I think it's pretty safe to say that a lot of people are are on antidepressants and there's there should be no stigma behind that. Absolutely, you know, I get it, and so yeah, I mean I'm gonna take a take a fifth on that one. But one thing I do want to touch on that I saw was kind of big as a former heroin enthusiast. Ye, there was a lot of speculation about his heavy eyelated look and that he was out opiates. For the record, I had never seen him indulge in any yeah, any opiates or drug use outside of his prescription medication. Oh, I don't pay him as a regular user of drugs.

1:50:33 It was something that he never talked about. I mean, he obviously knew my situation. I had talked about it, and I think you know he did. He did a fair about it drinking and in his college however long that tenure was. But no, he did not strike me as an opiate user. There were opiates in jail, uh, There's there was a fair bit of subbot own and a lot of sub utechs which you could easily snort and catch a buzz, especially if you don't have, you know, a tolerance to it. So that was always available and for a bit of a price, but something that you know, we could we obviously could have afforded between all of us.

1:51:18 So with that being said, you know, I'm not gonna tell you if I indulged or not, but yeah, it was there and he never did. It's not saying. I'm glad you remember that. That's a good detO. Yeah all right. Man, Well thanks again. I want to take keep you too long, but I really appreciate it. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, absolutely, this is uh, this is great man, It's kind of it's it's kind of surreal being able to you know, talk to John Q public and whatnot about you know, a very interesting period in my life.

1:51:58 I guess, yeah, probably one year. I haven't talked too publicly about no. No, I never really talked to that many people in public to begin with. Yees, So I'm looking forward to that. Absolutely. Man. Well'll keep in touch with you. Hey, awesome man, Yeah, we'll keep in touch. All right. Sounds good man, Take care. Yeah, yeah you too, Bud. Thanks stay tuned until after the credits for a clip I think you're going to want to hear. Also, we have one more episode this season, which is my interview with Lisa, a woman who posed as an undercover romantic interest for Chandler Halderson for her thesis paper that will be coming out in the next week or so. I want to thank everyone who supports us on Patreon. We couldn't do it without you. I know I say that every show, but seriously, if you have a minute, that's all it takes to start supporting us. We are an independent show and all I'm trying to do right now is make enough money to feed my cats. Seriously, I'm not a rich and famous crime junkie whatever YouTube celebrity.

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1:58:27 Thank you to Augusta Trevororam who has provided music for this season and for all of our seasons. And before we go for this week, I want to play you a clip from the phone calls that we've been playing all this season between Chandler and his now ex girlfriend Catherine Melender. We opened this season with a phone call, and I think we'll close this season with a phone call. This is the last known existing recording that's public record between the two, and as I said to Wallace in the interview today, it seemed like this phone call ended on good terms. So I'm not sure if they really did break up through a text message or what I suspect is there are probably recordings that were not released, Perhaps deemed not for public interest by whoever lord's over that decision. The rough date of this phone call is two months pre trial, which would have been November of two thousand and twenty one. And you may have heard some of this footage before, because when I've played portions of these phone calls, I've chopped up and mixed some of it one because it's kind of hard to hear.

1:59:46 So i'll do that again just from a technical standpoint, but also some of the call is just boring to me. But this last one, I think I'll play this full phone call the very last time that we know he that Chandler and Kat spoke. Please hold hello. This is a call from Chandler Holderson, an inmate from the Dane County Jail. Hello, good morning, annoying.

2:00:32 They're yelling right as you pick up. It's crazy how it always happens that way. They're like, what's annoyed Chandler today? Exactly how it is? Well? How are you? I'm okay? How are you? I'm okay? Just do dogs? Oh that's good. The huskies are the chewy and. Nothing not husky, so I found out the Pomeranian husky misses. But they're like big. So I'm like, I thought they would be really small like Chewi sides, but they're not. It's kind of cool. Yeah, they the other side. They're so funny and they all sleep on the bed with me. But it's like a twin xcel bed, so it's not big.

2:01:21 I knew someone in Plymouth that had one of those Pomeranian husky nixes. Yeah, was it smaller day medium? Like a fat result, Yeah, pretty much. That's fella and she has some big paws mm hmm. Yeah. How'd you sleep? I okay, you know, I slept with the dogs. I gained with Abigail a little last night. I slept great. You sip great? Yeah? Yeah, could you take a Malatona? No? You need? That guy would talk all night. There's like the first night I've actually slept through the night because of that.

2:02:04 Dude just exhausted me to the point where he can finally sleep. Well. Now they took him out. He's not shouting at himself in his room. And we shared a wall, so when you can cut himself. He'd also jump on the bed. And our beds are like connected through the wall. They like share bolts or something. I don't know. I'll explain it. But yeah, good that he's gone. Yeah, me too. This is the second time he's been through, so he'll be back, hopefully gone before he gets back. Is he like the one that scratched his poop off his button or is that a different guy.

2:02:46 That's a different one, and that one's probably in this building right now. He's just not in our block, so hopefully he does. That's good he was. That was something else. No more poop scratcher. How's your giving? Thank you? How is everything lately? It's been okay. I'm doing something with James and mom for lunch for Thanksgiving, and spent Thanksgiving Day with the dogs, and then I went. To Jade mm hmm. It was all at Jades.

2:03:28 Jade al their friend from high school, David, who I think we met at Eastern Okay, or he was at like one of the Halloween parties I went to like a long time ago, right, I think it was the Halloween that like I was doing the show. I got you. Yeah, her mom obviously, and then Candace came later and so did Daria after their family Thanksgiving. Very fun. Yeah.

2:04:10 Yeah, they all say hello and wish you a happy Thanksgiving. Mm hm. Oh was that they all wish you a happy Thanksgiving and say hello, I love mhm. Okay, yeah, m hmmm, not going super great lately. No really, yeah, it was all your trial planning and stuff.

2:04:55 M I found you some nice books. Pretty shaded. Yeah, like all your socks is gone. I just don't know how that's evident. But oh yeah, that doesn't matter. It's just the way it is. Yeah. I'm not gonna ask anything. I'm just making a joke about your missing stuff and not a suck sniffer. Maybe someone who likes toosing little piglets. M So, how did it get hurt? How did they get hurt?

2:05:38 Oh? I think she was running or something. And then oh yeah, yeah. We talk. No, nope. Do you want to send him a happy thanks Giving? Sex or no? Yep? H He seems like he's all all four putting me away, very excited to do it. It seems like. Mhm hm that's all right, though, well is he?

2:06:27 Is? He better? So that's good. Rizzo's doing all right? You know, it's just usual Rizzo. Mhm. Over the anxiety, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, hm, I finally have an excuse to wash your sweater. Severed in cat hair. Oh, you should be watching it at least once every other week. Handler you know what, I have the sadness and so I wear it every night. So what are you go going on? Can I for tomorrow?

2:07:12 Well? Today, like I said, I'm doing Thanksgiving lunch with Mom and James tonight or tomorrow. Jade and al are gonna come over because there's a hot tub and we're just gonna hang out. Mhm, have like some hard seltzers because they're not the biggest beer fans. Yeah, and then I wrought my laptop, so I'm probably gonna watch some like scary movies on there because she doesn't have like any TVs with like DVD players. They're all like the super flat TVs that are big. Oh, I hope you because have fun. That sounds like a.

2:07:57 Yeah, you know they're really They've been really there for me, like the whole time you've been gone, and very supportive and saying whenever I need, is what you need? Yeah, they've been keeping up on like the trial stuff for me, just like Danny and Navigail. So I don't have to. It's confusing it right now. Yeah, Yeah, I should probably fix my hair before trial.

2:08:40 Yeah, it's gonna be live stream. Yeah, oh that's fun. Mm hmm. Just do something. You're allowed to wear masks, so you'll be okay. So yeah, I'm gonna just buy a wig then wig masks and I don't know who I. Am right. Sometimes I'm fool. Why the thing's eyes and eye rouse? So maybe? Oh, I don't know if you can get your name omitted or something? Hopefully you can. Hopefully yeah.

2:09:21 Mm hmm. What else do you get anything cool happening? Do you get my letters? No? I didn't get your letters. Oh they might come today. When does your mail come? Uh? Kind of run new, so I'll let you know, okay, fingers crussed, fingers crusted. I really like the pretty one, the one with the heart. Oh wait, what you got that one? M I just sent it? Oh was the big one near mind? Yeah? That one? I Yeah, I like this. I try to h Yeah, that was really hard and I only found one Paul, So that's the only poem I could ever think of.

2:10:11 Is I found it in a book? Mm hmm. I'm glad you liked it. I don't try to find some idea is to send over. You like the funny ones too? To come in the single to think him to come. I think there's another funny one coming. M hm. Oh oh, and uh sometimes it'd be like that one. Yeah, that was good.

2:10:52 You did you get the turtle one with the long hair? No, okay, there's a turtle one with long yeah, you'll get it. Okay. Today it's just thinking about the purple cass and you made me on minecraft. Oh yeah, that was pretty cool. Mm hm. Anyway, I miss you too. You'll make another one. Yeah, thank you. Think about you a ton, Think about you a ton too.

2:11:42 Oh again, around ten pounds every month. Here, you're getting ten bounds every month around. Well, if I have even about five months here and I'm one hundred and fifty one hundred and seventy. So a zool imaged you because I don't want to see but I don't want to read any articles becout cry and you look a little bigger with your. Oh yeah, yeah, I wear a lot of I wear exls now. I like the clothes and a little bit softer. So like, I only in court less than one percent of my time here, so you might as well be comfortable.

2:12:31 True, sit in there for a while, was if you, like you've said, in there a while? We are in a very small room for a very long time. We don't get wrecked anymore really, so yeah, it's you pretty much sit in that tiny cage for half year to a year to two years. You know. Mm hm m hm. Who's hearing me doing happy years? Yeah, he left already a right, Yeah, he's gone.

2:13:13 He's probably already at his final prison. Mm hm mm hmmm, m. M hmm. It's nice though, Yeah, it looks nice. Mm hmm. Snow's gone though. Oh it's a bummer. So he's nice when there's snow and sitting in a hot tub. Yeah, it'll probably snow against night or something. Mm hm cool, mm hmmm. Mm hmmm. Lunch is gonna be one of those disgusting garden burgers.

2:13:56 Yeah, it's got better because you're a closure. Yeah, it's well, instead of a cage and sausage, it's just a big as hot dog. I hate hot dogs, so that would. Yeah. And then this is the one thing that's much much worse than anything else. I get. Colored garden burger. Sloppy Joe is all right, it's just not a lot of food for dinner. You know, everyone is not a fan Sloppy Joe's for Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving me. Yeah, so's a brick with two bean patties. I mushed it together to make grief oed beans that I made brick, then put Sloppy Joe on top. Redneck was on area, shepherds pie, Prison Shepherd's pie.

2:14:55 Jesus. Yeah, I've heard shut this part that I've never had it. I believe. I can make a pretty good one, so I'll make it for you. Okay, freedom. Great. I was hoping that would make you laugh. Okay, And remember we used to fart on me. You're nappy, not that much you fart on me. You I don't know, like when we first a recording around each other, you kind of help me down and just farted on me.

2:15:40 I do. I just thinkly remember it. It's rough, Yeah, yeah, I think it was after like I clicked up something too, so I mean would be stinky, high water and sink. Yeah, it's not me h m hm, you'd be special bad. It can get in here. So these people do not take care of themselves. Mhm, never mind, it's. Just yeah, just text it. You're talking very quiet, so.

2:16:23 M tell me something, tell you something. Well, I have a therapist. Oh what are they telling you? Nothing. They just listen to me complaining. That's it. Oh, they're one of those therapists where it's like self sided. So I talk about what I want to talk about and my complain, So it's me just complaining for an hour. Nice, it's nice. Yeah. I do not get the one coloring pages and like print of papers so you can can draw on.

2:17:09 The us see the coloring. No, they're just sheets of paper. We can't have books, really, mm hmm. I think it's the stuff that's there's some books in the always like in these topes. Mm hmm. Yeah. Get an innate worker that's nice enough to kick it close enough to the bars we can reach and get a book. It's great. Yeah, mh. I'm sure you read a lot of books on mind some fancy words.

2:17:49 I have read a lot, yeah, and wrote it a lot. Rip up my pages right away after I've finished writing. Do your question mhm? No, if you get them what the like? When heard the pencil just like melts into the rest of the paper. He wrote on it. Let's throw it away mhm. I was gonna say, if you did them on enough, you can throw them on the sea line. Yeah. The rules here is so weird that they probably take me to the hole for that.

2:18:33 No, have you been to the home. But there's a whole lot of loneliness. Yeah, that's a good one. I'm trying to get across the street. They have a little bit more room. They go to wreck once a week. There's no personal cells. So mm hmm. Yeah, And I mean you probably have a shower with people. No, they're private showers the individuals, and it's not a group shower. So yeah, I'm trying.

2:19:18 So it's always the oranges that do black showers or no. I never saw that. So they look like metal coffins. Oh yeah, okay, yeah, orange is just been a glass. It's like falls and then like but there's like plastic in between them, I think, and then the curtains a coruptive. But in the movie Gothica, they all just stand under shower heads all naked. Mhm, yes, yeah, that's that's not here. That's yeah. Oh sting at them. And all the prisons as group showers, they're not individual oh in.

2:20:10 The prison, yeah, I guess, try not to go to prison. Yeah mm hm. So, Kisten, what was it I said, kiss me? Then I made a kissing sound. I found that old video. You come me on and I try to be aggressively kissing your camera. I know I wanted it, all right, Yeah you counted to me because you had to do it, but I wanted it, and so I hold it to my forehead and I pretend you're kissing level with him.

2:20:59 And this is why can't have the therap business? Yeah, I could really use one. H Hopefully they can get you someone. Yeah, I'm just something to talk to you. I suppose that'd be nice. I mean, can you not talk to shag you're investigating. They're really busy. I don't really want to bother them. M I'm sure she will give them more insight on me as a person. They don't have to proof, or they don't really need to know I'm a good person or not. They just have to.

2:21:40 Do their job. I suppose. I don't really if they're interested in my character. M hm. Trying to do it as well as I can get their job. Yeah, yeah, well I'm sure they still care about you, hopefully. Yeah. Anterny Dohl is a good lawyer from what I've heard, Huh, Jorney Doll. I've heard people told me she's pretty good, So.

2:22:20 I actually haven't heard anything about her from anyone in here. Everyone's seen me with her on TV, but I know the younger one, Crystal Vera. Oh yeah, I haven't seen Crystal areas. I've heard from other inmates about her in passing. Oh just Crystal. Yeah, No, one actually really knows about uh. Yeah, yeah. She had a pretty big case in like two thousand five or something huge. I guess it's side down a bit. Oh, she's like a manager, so she's probably really busy with other managerial things.

2:23:06 Mm hmm, overseeing all the dreams who said that she was a top dollar. I guess, hm, yeah, hopefully they can get my message out. Mm hmm. There's a bunch of pencil writing right in front of where I where I stand. A call mm hmm. What I would say, fear coat. It's a q O t H F A no f A I r q O t H fair question.

2:23:47 A I r q U p H q O t H no use q O t H fair calls. I don't know. I don't know. I've never seen a Q without a. U B and. Mm hmm. I'll do the square, but that's wrong. It could be quote or quail, but those have views maybe. Well, it's going to be a mystery. Oh m hm, let me miss you, let me see.

2:24:30 I'm trying to think of an idea to draw for you because I haven't. I don't have any new drawings a theme. Mm hmmm. It's coming week, you know. Draw some some dogs. Dogs. I can't try things like animals. Maybe I can. I'll do my best. Okay, okay, draw like it was so easy to bocket and muffins. Yesterday was the anniversary of us getting muffin. By the way, Oh happy, she's well, happy birthday to mouthin late birthday a month ago. Yeah, that's totally weird, but I'm sure she knew m she's still cringey.

2:25:17 I remember when she used to sleep on me. Yeah, when she was really funny. I have the pictures pop up in my Snapchat memories of her sleeping on me. Oh gosh, when she was two. One where she's either. She really thought she was a toy. I think she really thought she was food, and then I gave her a bone for Christmas. Did you hear about Rise's heritage results. Yeah, I wanted you to some border Collie. I was with you. Oh yeah, her family tree is a reeve.

2:25:58 That's is not true. He's too small to be an actual border guy. I mean she could be like just really imbress, you know what I mean. That's why I said her family tree is a wreath. Mm hmm, Okay, I got you. Yeah, it's a circle. So it's like I feel like she was probably like inbread and then like just the once of the litter or something. Mm hmm. Yeah that could be. She's also super fairl so like you just gotta learn picked up traits from. A yeah, mm hmm.

2:26:45 I watched Birds were Hitting h I watched Birds of Prey and Harley Quinn has a hyena. Mm hmm. It's cool. Yeah, I didn't see Birds of Prey. We'll have to watch it. It's a list. Okay, you were on the call for like twenty nine minutes. I'm just giving you a couple of minute warnings because I don't know officially. When we started the call, I thought we were doing. A ten minute goal and I realized it's been longer than ten minutes, isn't it.

2:27:25 Yeah, it's okay, it's not. It's not a lot of money. Just in case. I hope you have a great day. I love you. Have a good lunch should throughout the day yet should I message you throughout the day still? Or is this a group messaging? It's the car right on Monday? Yeah, me too in the picture, hm, the in the pictures. Yeah, I'm still gonna find them. That's a rush pack and so I kind of threw every single boxes mm hmmm, like I've unpacked, but it's most even like my tats and bins and like SAgs. Oh yeah, I got I haven't. Yeah, I haven't been able to go through my apartment and stuff.

2:28:17 That's all right, you take your time. Mm hmmm. Mmmm. Well the good news is we can both start ark all together. Yeah. I don't even know if I'll get my laptop back ever in my life, So it's okay. I'll never remember the passwords any of my pigs. So yeah, you've been wanting a new laptop anyway. So you've been wanting a new laptop anyway. Oh yeah, well mine, I've been keeping it a lot with super glue and whatever. I'm pretty Saturday to another boy at least twice now.

2:29:08 So m hm, hopefully you remember your i Cloud password because we have a lot of photos on your phone. I didn't like the cloud. I tried to disable it as much as I could, but you. Have one minute remaining. Well, we have one minute, and you're a poopy butt for that. Because we have a lot of photos on your phone. Well hopefully we have the same ones on yours. We don't, okay, damn. Well hopefully you look at that. Bet Oh, I. Miss you, I love you. I love you too.

2:29:49 That's it. Gives me to your mom. Oh, actually one of one of the sheet is for your mom. One small picture, so. Can I read it? But can I read it? Or is it just from my mom? Oh? It's yeah, for both of you, but it's it's a picture. It's not much, but it's for your birthday. Yeah, you're okay to read it. If you want a great day, I'll message you. I'm good, love you, love you too. I don't know what it's going to hang up on us. Yeah, just keep talking. So thank you for using Global Telling a doc side God