July 29, 2024

S11, Chapter 11: Inferno

Exactly what happened during...

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Season 11S11 | The Haldersons

Exactly what happened during the early morning hours of July 2, 2021? Through the fire and flames, we continue on with our coverage of the Halderson case.

Episode GIF: https://i.imgur.com/ltDxXc9.mp4

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WEBVTT

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Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality.

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Listener discretion is advised.

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But just after killing his mom and his dad, the

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evidence in this case will show that Chamler went on

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his phone. If you go on your phone, and if

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any of you ever taken a note, you can take

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notes on your phone.

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iPhone has an app called notes. We got some raw.

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Data and i'll put it up here in a second.

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I won't put the raw data because it's a bit

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challenging to see.

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But Chamdler creates a note about five to eleven that

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day on July first, probably minutes after killing his parents,

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and the note.

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Reads weekend shores two two Lemon.

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Is the chemical name for hydrogen peroxide. You'll hear from

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people in this case. It's essentially a household cleaner to

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clean up blood lemon. It deodorizes things mixed together. It's

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a pretty cheap cleaning product you can have at home.

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So Chandler writes a note after murdering his parents, H

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two O two lemon door handles, move your shit upstairs,

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get a job, and clean the floor.

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He then does just that.

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He spends the afternoon cleaning the house. Eventually jumps in

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the shower. We know he's in the shower because his

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girlfriend and him FaceTime when they're in the shower. No judgment,

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but that's what happened. And the girlfriend took a screenshot.

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We know he's in the shower. They say they're good nights,

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and Chandler says, I'm going to bed, but he doesn't.

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I'm not going to show many photographs for a little bit,

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just because I think you deserve to kind of be

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eased into some of the things you're going to see.

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That night, what appears to have happened with the evidence

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will show because mister Halderson took items from around the

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house and began cutting apart.

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His parents.

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Saw blades covered in Barton Christa's blood, an axe, Barton

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Christa's blood, hand saws, things of that sort covered and

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Barton Christa's blood. He cleaned the house as best he could,

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and you'll hear about that, but still a blood spatter

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found of Barton Christa's blood around the house. And he

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had a plan, wasn't a well thought out plan, but

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he had one, and that he was going to burn

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the remains in the family fireplace there in the house,

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and that night a neighbor who had a security camera

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behind the Halderson home way far away, was able to

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catch something.

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I think everyone has a bit of a fascination with

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the dark side.

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I myself, Wilways love the dark side as well.

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I think it's something that everyone secretly longs.

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For in moves.

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And if we look closer, there is a white object

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on that piece of wood. That white object is later

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determined to be a human bone.

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The dark side, the dark side of the dark Side.

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Let's do a quick recap. On the afternoon of July first,

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at two ten pm, Bart Holderson sent a text message

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to his son saying quote, I'm ready whenever you are.

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This was the last recorded text ever sent from Bart

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Holderson's phone. We don't know the exact time, but somewhere

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between two ten pm and three fifteen pm, Chandler Holderson

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murdered his father. He ambushed him in the family basement,

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shooting him in the back multiple times with an Acas

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model semi automatic rifle. At three nineteen pm, Chandler sent

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a text message to his mother Christa saying quote, Dad's

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phone died. Text or call me and get soda on

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your way home. I have an extra hour of work.

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When Christa arrived home, Chandler murdered her in much the

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same way that he murdered his father. To this day,

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we still don't know the exact details, but we do

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know he likely ambushed her in the family basement, just

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like he did his father. That's where they kept the soda,

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and it's also where all the bullet fragments were recovered

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by police. The cold blooded murder two human beings not

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to mention your own parents. This would surely be enough

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to mentally and emotionally break any normal human being to

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the point of being unable to function. But the mask

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that Chandler had been wearing for the entirety of his

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adult life was firmly in place, This hard shell Chandler

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had spent years fortifying so that nothing and no one

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could see inside, not even those who thought they were

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closest to him, not his girlfriend of two years, not

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his brother, not even his parents. The wall was built,

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and now there was a crucial task at hand. The

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events of the Night Ahead could have been ripped straight

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from the annals of the most horrific horror fiction book

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or film ever made, except this was no fictional story.

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Between the hours of four PM and seven forty nine pm,

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Chandler hastily used whatever tools he could fine to begin

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cutting his parents up into pieces small enough to fit

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inside the family fireplace. He used an axe to chop

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off their hands and feet. He used a number of

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different saws to sever their heads, their legs, and their arms,

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until their torsos were just rectangular stumps of flesh, barely

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resembling human beings. It's at seven forty nine PM that

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Chandler took what was likely a much needed shower. He

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called his girlfriend, Catherine Melender and video chatted with her

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through FaceTime. While in the shower, Chandler said that Kat

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didn't have to mute herself because his parents weren't home.

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This leads me to believe that their conversation likely at

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some point turned sexual. Chandler assured her that his parents

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were not home, that they had gone out to pick

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up some groceries, and while I guess in one sense

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Chandler's parents really weren't home, in another sense, they were,

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at least their lifeless bodies were. At some point, after

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a shower and video call, and perhaps sexual release, Chandler

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once again descended the steps to the family basement steps

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to Hell, and while Kat was fast asleep in her

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bed and her apartment across town, Chandler began methodically carrying

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out the next step of his plan. Piece by piece.

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He carried his parents' bodies up from the basement to

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one of their living room fireplaces.

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What I like to do in has worked for me

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over the years. I learned this from my predecessor that

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when we go into the crime scene, whether I'm with

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my partner Jim Plenty or with Eric Schneider, that we

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take everything in.

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We take our notes in with us. But I say

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we take everything is.

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We don't talk to each other because we don't want

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to taint each other's mind. Each person may see things

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a little bit differently, so I found its best that

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we walk through the scene, evaluate the scene, and then

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after we've done a complete walk through the scene and

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we've done on our evaluation, then we talk amongst each.

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Other and we're not only.

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Getting understanding as to what each other has seen, but

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we're also forming a game plan as to how we

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were going to process this scene and what additional resources

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we may need to call in. I've referred to it

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as like a golden hour. It takes a significant amount

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of time to go through a house as large as that.

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So, Deputy, just to begin with, how would you describe

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the Helderson home?

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Just in general, I.

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Would describe the overall condition of the house to be

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half finished, in state of repair. It appeared to be

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some renovations occurring withinside of the residence and they were

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still living within the house, so then there were areas

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that were completed with the renovations.

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Did that pose any challenges to you and your team

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during the search?

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Nothing? Significant? No?

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Okay? What is Exhibit one seventy eight?

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That is a photograph of the west wall of the

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same room. I'm sorry, that is the east wall of

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the same room that we were just in.

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We're just looking.

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At the fireplace. That is a gas sealed fireplace.

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And a fireplace becomes significant in this case, yes it does.

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Is this the fireplace that became of any significance?

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No, it is not.

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Just in general, did the.

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Living room have any significant significant evidentiary value?

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No it did not.

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This is actually exhibit nine, an exhibit that we've seen earlier.

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But what is exhibit nine display.

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There's a photograph of the dining room and now we're

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able to see a portion of the kitchen that is

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to the northwest of this room.

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And again, did the dining room have any significant evidentiary

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value to your investigation?

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No it did not.

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Right, Was there anything really of note in your investigation

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in the kitchen.

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No, there was not.

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This is the vacuum cleaner that I collected from the bathroom.

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And what was the vacuum cleaner collected.

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During the evaluation portion of the processing of the crime scene,

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I identified that there was blood on the side of

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the vacuum cleaner, and I had further tested that blood

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with pheno thailine, which gives us a resumptive positive for blood.

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Under the appearance, they appeared to be blood, but we

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need to confirm those stains, So we confirm those stains

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with phenol thaline. Then I use a subsequent test yet again,

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and it's called the hexagon Obti test.

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This test differentiates between human and non human blood. And

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that test was positive.

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For human blood or non human blood.

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For positive for human blood.

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Exhibit two eight. What is that a picture of There's.

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A photograph depicting two refused containers that are provided by

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municipality for picking of waste and.

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Did you test to perform any evidentiary test on any

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of these garbage cans?

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I did.

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On the handle of the garbage can, there is reddish

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brown stain. There's also a reddish brown stains on the

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inside of the container. The stain that was on the

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handle was tested with phenothalene, which was presumptive positive, and

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then followed up with the hexagon OBTI test which was

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also positive for human blood.

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Could you describe Exhibit two on nine for the jury?

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This is a photograph of the interior side of the

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west wall of the garage. In this image, there is

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a placard with the number seven that is indicating that

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the metal framed gray basket.

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That is hanging.

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And the items that are inside of that basket.

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And the seven was put there by police.

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Yes, I put that there.

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An exhibit two ten, What is two ten?

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Show?

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Exhibit two ten shows another photograph of the same bin. However,

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the first container that was on top of it has

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been removed to expose a couple lengths of rope. You

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see a length of rope that is black in color,

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and there's also a length of rope that is orange

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in color.

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And why did you note the rope.

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The black rope is consistent in appearance with a rope

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that was around the torso of the deceased that was

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located on the Earlin Road property.

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To eleven. Again, just a close up of that rope.

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It's showing the cut end of that rope.

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Thirteen is a photograph of the axe that I collected

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from the garage.

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And just to back up, this axe was kind of

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hidden behind some boards.

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It was something that you had to look to see.

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I wouldn't say it was hidden, it was. It was

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concealed by its placement, but if you had the right angle,

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you could see it was there. Exhibit two fourteen is

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a photograph showing staining that is on the area of

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where the axe head and the handle of the axe

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come together. This red staining is consistent in an appearance

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with that of blood. There's also some dark staining on

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the metal portion of the.

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Axe head itself.

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Exhi it is a yet another photograph of the axe

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with the axe head and again we can see staining

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in the area of where the axe head and handle intersect.

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Exhibit sixteen, it is a photograph of the same axe. However,

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is the opposite side of the axe head. Again we

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can see that there's some dark discoloration in the area

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where the sharp end of the axe would be, and

238
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there's not the same discoloration in the area of the

239
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blunt side of the axehead. Two seventeen is a photograph

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00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:22.320
of the same axe, and here we're referencing the handle area,

241
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and we can see on the handle that there is

242
00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:28.600
dark red reddish brown staining.

243
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And there's various stickers. One of these stickers says biohazard.

244
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Why is that on there?

245
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There's a biohead? Is a just stick on sticker on there?

246
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Because of the reddish brown staining that is on the

247
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axe is human blood? I tested it with the phenolthalene

248
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:51.240
test the presumptive positive. I then followed with the hexagon

249
00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:55.679
OBTI tests to determine if if it's human blood or not,

250
00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:58.159
and the test came back positive for human blood.

251
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:03.159
At this point, the investigator, wearing blue medical grade gloves,

252
00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.559
is presented with a large rectangular cardboard box which he

253
00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.320
proceeds to open carefully, and then facing the jury, he

254
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:16.240
reveals its contents the acts that Chandler used to chop

255
00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.759
off the hands and feet of his mother and father.

256
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:22.879
Deputy, could you please pick up Exhibit to nineteen and

257
00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:25.879
maybe walk back and forth besides the jury.

258
00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:28.440
And show them. Exhibit to nineteen.

259
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:41.480
Exhibit fourteen is a overview of the family rooms, the

260
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:43.559
table with the chairs.

261
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.480
There's a fan on the table, there's a lamp on

262
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.799
the table. There's a neck brace on the table, and

263
00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:54.279
in the background you can see the stone fireplace.

264
00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:59.000
The neck brace still there in the open in the

265
00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:02.519
room where Chandler burned his parents, just lying on the

266
00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:03.879
table nonchalantly.

267
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:06.799
Please explain. Exhibit to twenty eight.

268
00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:12.440
It's an overall photograph of the stone fireplace. We can

269
00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.440
see the fireplace insert if you will.

270
00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:17.799
That is in the middle.

271
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:24.079
That's the black rectangular framing that has double bifold glass

272
00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:27.599
doors on it. So the left there's a storage area

273
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.480
for kindling type wood with a bin.

274
00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:34.559
Exhibit two twenty nine. What is Exhibit two twenty nine.

275
00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:40.519
Exhibit two twenty nine is a pair of work type gloves.

276
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:45.079
And again those were there when you arrived on scene.

277
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:45.880
Correct.

278
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:48.720
This is a photograph of how we found it. Exhibit

279
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:53.799
two thirty is a photograph of the fireplace enclosure. Now,

280
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:57.400
this fireplace is not a gas fireplace. This is a

281
00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.359
wood burning fireplace. There's a a bie. There are bifold

282
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.960
doors on the front. We can see that there are

283
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.720
three of the four panes of glass that are in place.

284
00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:15.119
The fourth pane of glass is absent, and if we

285
00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.680
look at the lower edge of the frame on the

286
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.400
left side, we can see a portion of the glass

287
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.480
that would normally be in that position.

288
00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:28.920
Remember the pane of glass in the fireplace that Chandler

289
00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:31.359
said he broke when throwing a ball for his dog,

290
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:34.640
the same one that he cut his foot on. Well,

291
00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.359
it turns out that the glass didn't break in the

292
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:40.440
way he described it. We'll come back to this later.

293
00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:43.279
Please explain Exhibit two thirty one.

294
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:48.000
Exhibit two thirty one is a photograph of the same fireplace,

295
00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.519
and we can see again in the area where the

296
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:55.240
glass should be, there are portions of glass still remaining.

297
00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:01.119
We can see that above that on the trim for

298
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:06.519
the glass enclosure that there's a silver bare metal essentially

299
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:12.759
with the paint has bubbled up and there's a disruption

300
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:14.400
on that surface.

301
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:16.720
I actually I'm going to go back a couple of

302
00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:21.759
slides in Exhibit two forty of the items on the

303
00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:25.279
table is there also a measuring tape on the table, there.

304
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:27.400
Is a measuring tape.

305
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.599
Also appears to be some hand sanitizer.

306
00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:35.880
There's a hand sanitizer, and I believe there is a

307
00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.160
target bag on the far right side.

308
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:42.039
Maybe a bottle of advil and some sort of Star

309
00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:44.640
Wars memorabilia.

310
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:45.640
That is correct. Yes.

311
00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:51.720
Exhibit two thirty two is a photograph of the far

312
00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:57.200
right side or the south side of the glass enclosure.

313
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:02.680
This is on the family room side or the non fireside.

314
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.799
It's showing the glass and streaks that are on the glass.

315
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:11.839
Do you have any thoughts as to what caused those streaks?

316
00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:13.319
Objection speculation?

317
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:18.559
I think you said foundation sustained. You can lay foundation

318
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.519
if you if you wish.

319
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:23.039
Detector leatherburry.

320
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:27.279
Have you been taught through your various trainings as a

321
00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:32.000
crime scene unit investigator? Have you had some trainings pertaining

322
00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:33.440
to fire or arson?

323
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.519
Yes, I have.

324
00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:40.039
I've attended the Dane County Arson Response Initiative training and

325
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.279
received training in fire investigations.

326
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:47.440
Additionally, have you had any training on climbed crime scene

327
00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:54.839
cleanup or how to process potential cleanup scenarios as you

328
00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:59.000
process a scene that a suck suspect may have left behind. Yes,

329
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:03.039
I have based on those training and your experience. Do

330
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:07.440
you have any ideas as to what caused the streaking?

331
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:12.319
It appears that an object was dragged across that surface

332
00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:14.319
in an attempt to clean that surface.

333
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.160
There appears to be a residue. Is that a fair statement?

334
00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:23.599
Yes, this appears to be a smear? Is actually what

335
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:24.559
it appears to be?

336
00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:29.720
Could you describe it all with that residue? Was it dry, oily?

337
00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:30.519
Something else?

338
00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:34.599
I really can't get into that because I did not

339
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:37.000
do any further examinations of that.

340
00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.440
Okay, fair enough to forty one? What is the jury

341
00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:42.720
seeing in two forty one?

342
00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:45.599
In two forty one, we are seeing the area above

343
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.720
the glass doors that is part of the enclosure. And

344
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:53.839
what we're seeing here is the paint. There's a discoloration

345
00:21:54.000 --> 00:22:00.680
to the paint and there's actually bubbling that has occurred.

346
00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:04.519
Any educated guesses as to what caused the bubbling.

347
00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:09.200
Yes, high temperature causes the bubbling of the coating that

348
00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.279
is on that material. And as we continue, we can

349
00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.319
see that it is actually burned away from the metal

350
00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.359
material itself and is exposed the raw metal.

351
00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:20.720
And that's what you see all the way on the

352
00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:21.440
right side.

353
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:22.680
That is correct.

354
00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:31.279
And below the fireplace grate is a ash clean out door,

355
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:33.440
and what is.

356
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:34.680
An ash cleanout door?

357
00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.920
It's an area where the ash can be.

358
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:45.359
Depositive and swept into when cleaning the fireplace.

359
00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:47.160
Out Exhibit two thirty seven.

360
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:50.880
Exhibit two thirty seven is the photograph.

361
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.960
It's a close up photograph of the previous image that

362
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:58.359
was depicted. What we can see in this image and

363
00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:03.279
Drew My attention was the differentest colorations on the grate itself.

364
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:05.720
When we look at the grate, we can see that

365
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:09.799
there are areas that are more gray or light in color,

366
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:15.079
and then we see areas that are more dark or

367
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:19.240
they have a wet appearance to them. When I had

368
00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:23.880
seen this, I knew that there was something more burnt

369
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:27.599
in this fireplace other than just wood burning materials in

370
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.759
new sprint, and I elicited the help of the ATF

371
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:38.200
in the Wisconsin Department of Criminal Investigations ARSON Response Unit

372
00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:39.720
to assist.

373
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.359
Exhibit two thirty nine, What is the jury seeing?

374
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:48.559
Exhibit two thirty nine is a photograph. It's a close

375
00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.720
up photograph of the two logs that are situated in

376
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:57.440
the grate. We also can see the unburnt newsprint if

377
00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:00.000
we look in the center of the image, we see

378
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:06.200
a dark colored object that is burnt wood that has

379
00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:10.920
been placed on top of the unburnt newsprint. And if

380
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:18.960
we look closer to the black, burnt, charred wood, there

381
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:22.039
is a white object on that piece of wood.

382
00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:24.119
That white object is.

383
00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:30.799
Later determined to be human bone.

384
00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:34.599
And that determination was made by the forensic anthropologist.

385
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:36.799
Yes, doctor Christina Figueroa Soto.

386
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.000
Tell us about Exhibit two forty three.

387
00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:45.240
Exhibit two forty three is a photograph depicting evidence markers

388
00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:51.319
with alpha markers next to them. These are depicting individual

389
00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.319
stains of blood that I located.

390
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.319
On the dark tar like floor. You can also that

391
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:01.039
there is a.

392
00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:06.519
Marker on the hearth let her be that is also

393
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:11.920
from a reddish brown stain that tested positive for blood.

394
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:17.480
A piece of bone blood, and a fireplace that had

395
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:21.400
been burning so ferociously that it had melted the metal

396
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:24.519
coating on the frame. In addition to that it broken

397
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.960
pane of glass on the fireplace cover. At this point,

398
00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:32.279
if investigators wanted to put forth the theory that Chandler

399
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:35.640
had burned his parents' bodies in the family fireplace, they

400
00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:40.240
almost certainly had enough evidence. Yet more was to come

401
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.559
a nail in the proverbial coffin that would steal shut

402
00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:49.519
the case against Chandler Holderson so airtight that a conviction

403
00:25:49.920 --> 00:26:01.839
would seem almost inevitable. Right back after this quick ad break,

404
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:06.400
all of our episodes are available on Patreon ad free.

405
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.039
If you want to help support the show, go to

406
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:27.759
patreon dot com. Slash Tapes from the dark Side. In

407
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:32.039
homicide cases that are built on circumstantial evidence, an allusion

408
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:35.240
is often made to the fact that murder almost never

409
00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:41.039
happens right on camera. Video evidence is almost always prioritized.

410
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.079
We trust what we can see with our own eyes

411
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:50.119
above almost anything else. What if there was video in

412
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:54.519
this case that could pin Chandler Holderson to this crime,

413
00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:02.359
or at least the attempted cover up. Scott Coons was

414
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:06.880
a Sheriff's deputy with the Dane County Sheriff's Office in Madison, Wisconsin.

415
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.799
He was trained in an area known as video forensics

416
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.759
and certified as what is known as a LEVA, which

417
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.160
is one of the longest acronyms I've ever heard.

418
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:24.559
Law Enforcement and Emergency Services Video Association International Certified Forensic

419
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:25.240
Video Analyst.

420
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.559
The voice you just heard was Scott Coons himself, who

421
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:34.000
is also certified under the National Technical Investigators Association as

422
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:39.039
a technical investigator. In addition to being an investigator himself,

423
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:42.279
Scott was also a teacher, taught not only in the

424
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:45.599
state of Wisconsin, but throughout the entire world.

425
00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:50.039
I've been fortunate enough to teach across the United States

426
00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:57.160
to law enforcement, to crime lab personnel, private investigators, attorneys

427
00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:08.240
throughout Canada, Hong Kong, Singapore, Sweden, Oman, the UK. There's

428
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.119
been a lot of teaching opportunities for that. I've also

429
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.319
been given the opportunity to guest lecture at UW plattfell

430
00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:23.519
at Gateway Technical College in Kenosha, Blackhawk Technical College in Janesville,

431
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:29.200
the National Forensic Academy in the University of Tennessee, and

432
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:33.559
Marshall University in West Virginia. I have taught forensic video

433
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:37.640
analysis and ethics courses at Madison College I think it

434
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:40.880
was about seven years, and I've taught a video evidence

435
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:44.440
course at Fox Valley Technical College in Appleton, Wisconsin.

436
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:49.160
Simply put, for the task that lay ahead, Scott was

437
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:51.720
the kind of guy that you wanted on your team.

438
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:53.000
In this specific case.

439
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:56.160
At some point where you asked to become involved regarding

440
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:01.079
a video of some homeowner named Lynch who lived on

441
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:04.240
Bridgeman Road, perhaps behind the Alderson residents, who had a

442
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:06.039
video facing the rear of his property.

443
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:09.559
I was and did you talk to mister Lynch?

444
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:10.960
I did several times.

445
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:15.599
Colin Lynch one of the Holderson's neighbors. Like many of

446
00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.400
those living in that quiet neighborhood and Windsor, Colin had

447
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:24.279
a number of security cameras. In fact, he had thirteen.

448
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:29.519
Probay say sell your name of the writer, Colin Lynch, C, L, I, N,

449
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:30.920
L and H.

450
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:34.319
Did you know someone named Bart Holderson? Yes? How did

451
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:36.400
you know Bart Holderson? Neighbor?

452
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:40.559
And we're both commissioners on Lake District?

453
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.039
To you pull that microphone just a little bit closer

454
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:45.960
to you, I'm sorry, sometimes it's already hear in this room.

455
00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:48.160
You say you're both commissioners on a lake district.

456
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:53.720
Yes, it's a special tax district that acquires funds for

457
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:57.000
the management of the pond that we live on.

458
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:00.480
Sure you both back up to the pond. Yeah. Correct.

459
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:03.640
In relation to mister Holderson's house, were you aware of

460
00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:05.519
where Bart Alderson lived? Yes?

461
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:09.920
Where was your house in relation to his house? Directly

462
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.880
behind him across the pond.

463
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.240
Okay, So if you looked across the pond, you'd see

464
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:16.000
bart Alderson's house, you correct.

465
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:20.200
Okay, keep in mind this pond that laid between the

466
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:23.720
Holderson's house and the Lynch's house. We're turned to it later.

467
00:30:24.200 --> 00:30:27.119
Sir, did you back in July twenty twenty one, did

468
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:28.799
you have any security cameras at your house?

469
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:31.000
Yes?

470
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:34.200
What type of security system or how many cameras did

471
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:34.960
you have at your home?

472
00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:36.839
Total of thirteen?

473
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.119
Did some of them face the front of your house? Yes?

474
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:44.000
And did at least one of them face the rear

475
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:44.799
of your house.

476
00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:46.279
Rear?

477
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:51.319
Word? Yeah? Okay? And does that camera look toward the

478
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:54.000
pond in some respects? Yes?

479
00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:57.799
The pond is in the in the images in them

480
00:30:59.000 --> 00:30:59.799
above the ground.

481
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:00.240
Sure.

482
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.440
So what's the purpose of What was the purpose of

483
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:03.599
that camera when you installed it?

484
00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:04.920
I Was it to look at the pond? Or was

485
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:07.119
it to look at something else? Oh?

486
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:11.240
I had planned when I installed the cameras. I had

487
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:18.359
planned on in putting in a pool. And there's terribly risky.

488
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:19.799
Terrifying things. And so.

489
00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:23.839
One of the many reasons for installing cameras at the

490
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:27.599
pool in the rear was the primary purpose of that.

491
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.480
In the mid part of July of last year.

492
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:34.559
Did you make were the police having contact with you

493
00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:38.200
about your security cameras and perhaps them having some footage

494
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:39.119
that they thought was helpful.

495
00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:40.319
Yes?

496
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:43.400
And did you provide full access to your security system

497
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:43.920
at that time?

498
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:44.359
Yes.

499
00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:47.240
In fact, at one point they actually took your kind

500
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:49.559
of the DVR from your home, did they?

501
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:50.839
Did they not? That's correct?

502
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:54.839
Okay, So the cops had security footage of the Holderson house,

503
00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:58.880
but it's a grainy video taken from hundreds of feet away.

504
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.720
Was there anything on this tape that could possibly help

505
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:08.720
the case? That's where Scott Koons comes in into science

506
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:13.359
known as reverse projection, which he would use to meticulously

507
00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:17.559
recreate what happened inside the Holderson House during the early

508
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:21.599
morning hours July second, twenty and twenty one.

509
00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:27.559
So I knew that body parts had been found prior

510
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.720
to my involvement with the case, and if I remember correctly,

511
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.039
an arrest had been made just prior to me getting

512
00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:36.240
involved in a case as well. I was shown a

513
00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:38.920
couple of photographs of the inside of the Holderson residents.

514
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:42.519
I was informed that it appeared to have been a

515
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.799
fire in and around the fireplace in the lower level

516
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:49.200
of the family room at the house, and I was

517
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:53.880
informed that no bodies were found. Typically in our homicides,

518
00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:55.960
we find bodies right there, and in this case, that

519
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:57.240
wasn't the situation.

520
00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:02.119
The flickering lights that instigator saw on the DVR video

521
00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:05.559
was no bigger than a handful of pixels, and at

522
00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:09.240
the current moment, there was no definitive evidence that this

523
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:13.559
indicated a fire inside the Halderson home. Scott Koons would

524
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:16.559
need to use his skills to interpret the data held

525
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.559
within those pixels to uncover the truth. One of the

526
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:24.079
first things that he did was identify any openings in

527
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.640
the rear of the Halderson home from which light could escape.

528
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:32.000
There were, in fact seven such openings. In order from

529
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.920
left to right, we have number one, the dining room window,

530
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:40.960
number two, the kitchen window, number three, the glass kitchen door,

531
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:44.680
number four, the family room window, which we'll call the

532
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:49.759
fireplace window, number five, the family room door, number six,

533
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:54.759
the TV room window, and number seven the small garage window.

534
00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:57.680
Well, when I initially got briefed on this case, upon

535
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:02.119
my return to Madison, I made contact with Deputy Sheriff

536
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:02.720
Mike Wilk.

537
00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:05.480
He had been assigned to look at.

538
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:08.199
The video from seventy twenty two Bridgman Road mister Lynch's

539
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:12.320
DBR video and a catalog the series of events chronologically

540
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.840
that he observed in the video. I've trained Mike Wilk

541
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:18.039
in the past at Madison College, so I'm familiar with

542
00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:20.719
him and his work. And I said, Mike, let's meet.

543
00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:22.599
I just want you to show me what you see,

544
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.400
what you don't see, and what your observations are. And

545
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.880
he indicated to me that on the video there was

546
00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:31.239
a flickering light that he believed was coming from the

547
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:34.199
Halders And residents on the early morning hours of July second,

548
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.360
twenty twenty one, and I said, what do you believe

549
00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:38.199
that light to be? He said, I think it's a

550
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:41.559
fire in that family room at the house. And I

551
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:43.800
asked him why he believed that, and he said things

552
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.039
that made sense to me. It's a flickering light. He

553
00:34:46.119 --> 00:34:49.679
had knowledge. He told me that there was a fireplace

554
00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:52.039
in that room and I said, well, how do you

555
00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:55.280
know it's coming from that window? He said, well, I've

556
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.320
looked at daytime video and I think that's where it is.

557
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:02.559
So I looked at that video, and not being familiar

558
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:05.840
at that point with the residents, I thought it's probably right,

559
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.960
But really it's a perception thing we perceived it probably

560
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:11.320
was that windows. So the question I posed to him

561
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:14.679
and to Detective Seank and Sims is, I think we

562
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:17.000
have an opportunity here with this video to not only

563
00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:19.760
perceive what we think was the source of that light,

564
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:22.840
but to prove it. And so the question really was

565
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:25.639
where was that light coming from? Not what the source

566
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.559
of the light was, but where in the Holderson residence

567
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:29.880
was that coming from.

568
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:34.159
Scott goes pretty in depth here with a technical explanation,

569
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.960
so all simplify it a little bit. The video file

570
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:42.440
is made up of frames, which are essentially themselves individual pictures.

571
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:46.159
In each second of video, a security camera will usually

572
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:49.639
record around fifteen to thirty frames, and each one of

573
00:35:49.639 --> 00:35:53.840
those frames is made up of pixels, little squares of

574
00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:55.559
digital information, and.

575
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:57.360
We'll look at a good deal of video here in

576
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.760
a moment. The unknown is right, and I think we

577
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.559
already talked about this. The question you're trying to answer

578
00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:04.840
the unknown as which window was associated with that flickering

579
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:07.719
light for that several hour period in those early morning.

580
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.519
Hours of the second, that's correct.

581
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:14.039
Okay, you had to answer some questions to solve this question.

582
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:16.360
I would imagine first being how is the video file

583
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:17.079
constructed that.

584
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:18.960
You had Berrickley.

585
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:21.639
This image is made up of two hundred and forty

586
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:26.000
pixels tall and horizontally three hundred and fifty two pixels

587
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:28.760
wide on the right side of the screen. I have

588
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:32.840
shown a small portion enlarged to try to show those

589
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:36.719
actual pixels where they are, actual visual little squares of information,

590
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:40.239
just to orient people about the idea that we don't

591
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.039
normally see pixels, but in the laboratory we see them

592
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:43.679
all the time.

593
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.599
A process known as reverse projection would be the key

594
00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:51.840
to unlocking the secrets of this video footage. Reverse projection

595
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:54.400
has been around in the field of forensics since at

596
00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:57.519
least the nineteen seventies, and you might not realize it,

597
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:01.639
but you've probably come across it at point, just based

598
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:05.239
on how commonly it's used these days. When someone robs

599
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:08.360
a bank and they're caught on video, they'll often use

600
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:12.639
reverse projection to estimate their height. Now, this science is

601
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:15.920
only possible if you have accessed to certain reference points

602
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:19.480
and measurements. For example, you can't figure out a suspect's

603
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.960
height unless you know roughly their distance from the camera,

604
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:26.239
the camera angle, and at least a couple of background

605
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:30.679
references in the video. With our case, investigators were fortunate

606
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:34.320
to have a number of reference points. Firstly, the distance

607
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:37.239
from the camera to the Halderson House could be measured

608
00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:41.800
and it hadn't moved three hundred and sixty seven feet

609
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:46.480
For our international audience, that's one hundred and eleven meters.

610
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:50.039
The camera had not changed positions, so the angle could

611
00:37:50.079 --> 00:37:53.840
be measured, and the angle of the lens could also

612
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:54.480
be measured.

613
00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:59.039
So the way video is structured, the pixels always start

614
00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:01.599
with the location zero. So in the upper left hand

615
00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:04.360
corner in this example, that pixel in the upper left

616
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:06.400
hand corner would be x position zero.

617
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:08.519
Why position zero zero.

618
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:12.239
Zero, That is its location in two dimensional space.

619
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:14.400
Got it? And so if we look at the next slide,

620
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.519
perhaps the different corner. Yeah.

621
00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:19.239
So the second example here I made in slide sixteen

622
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:22.880
is the opposite the lower right hand corner. It's at

623
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:25.440
it's maximum X value, it's all the way to the right.

624
00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:28.239
It's at it's maximum Y value all the way at

625
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:30.840
the bottom. So we would have an x Y coordinate

626
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:33.199
of three point fifty one two thirty nine. And again

627
00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:36.880
those numbers are one less than a total with and

628
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.559
height of that image because we start counting at zero

629
00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:40.679
instead of one.

630
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:44.039
So these pixels essentially can be placed on a graph

631
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:47.639
absolutely okay, So the question becomes then the flickering window.

632
00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:50.519
What are the x Y coordinates of that? Correct? That's

633
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:52.679
what was of concern. Yes, where were they located?

634
00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:56.039
The distance from the lens at Colin Lynch's house across

635
00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:58.559
the pond to the Hullerson residence was three hundred and

636
00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:01.920
sixty seven feet. That is quite a distance when you

637
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:05.159
couple that with a wide angle lens. Most closed circuit

638
00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:07.800
television cameras have a wide angle lens so they can cover.

639
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:08.320
A wide area.

640
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:10.559
You may want to cover your whole front yard or

641
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:13.440
a whole area in entry away to your business or something.

642
00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:17.119
The wide angle lens makes objects appear smaller than they

643
00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:20.000
really are, So when you have a wide angle lens

644
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:23.719
coupled with a long distance, objects appear quite small, and

645
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:27.760
if they're small, there's less detail. This video resolution is

646
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.440
three point fifty two by two forty to give your perspective,

647
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:37.440
HD or high definition nineteen twenty by ten eighty So

648
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:41.480
the total resolution for every frame of video here is

649
00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:45.119
about four percent of the area of HD. So not

650
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:48.559
dealing with a very large data set, we have very

651
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:53.920
limited data available to us. So on July thirtieth, it

652
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.400
was a Friday evening, I met in front of the

653
00:39:56.440 --> 00:40:00.239
Holderson residence with Deputy Wilk and with Lieutenant Carls brief

654
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.920
them again and what I wanted them to do, and

655
00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:05.159
what I had done was I took a forty eight

656
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:09.199
inch piece of angle iron steel and I connected magnetic

657
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.719
led lights to it, so we had approximately three feet

658
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.719
of vertical light and then the bottom foot of that

659
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.519
stick kind of like a lightsaber you could hold on

660
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:22.159
to without having lights beneath your hands. What I told

661
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:24.119
Deputy Wilk was, I said, we're going to be in

662
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:26.239
cell phone contact. I'm going to be over at the

663
00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:29.559
Lynch residence across the pond. I said, I'm going to

664
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:31.760
give you direction where I want you to stand. And

665
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:33.360
when I give you the command, what I'd like you

666
00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:36.519
to do is take that lightsaber, that stick and just

667
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:39.039
move it slowly in front of the window of where

668
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:39.679
you're standing.

669
00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:41.800
I don't want you to wave it wide. I don't

670
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:43.199
want you to hold it up higher low.

671
00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:44.960
I want you to be in front of from the

672
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:47.800
camera's perspective, where the frame of the windows would be.

673
00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:51.519
The next step was for the forensic team to film

674
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:55.360
their experiment. They use the exact same camera that was

675
00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:58.559
used to record the footage from July second, and it

676
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:02.599
seemingly was in the exact same spot. Yet they ran

677
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:05.280
into a problem when they took the footage back to

678
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:07.159
the lab at the Sheriff's office.

679
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:11.119
Mister Lynch told me that he had not done anything

680
00:41:11.159 --> 00:41:13.159
to his DVR system, But he did say to me

681
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:16.639
he said he had been doing some reconstruction work on

682
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:18.760
the deck, I think replacing some deck boards or something.

683
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:19.360
He said, They've been.

684
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:21.960
Doing a lot of hammering, sawing, pounding. He said there's

685
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.119
a possibility that the camera might have moved, but he

686
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:26.920
said he had not done anything to move that camera

687
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:31.039
or to alter it in any way. When I was

688
00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:35.320
in the laboratory trying to register the images from July second,

689
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:40.119
with the images we collected from July thirtieth, the y

690
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:43.440
direction the vertical was dead on. It was in exactly

691
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:48.000
the same tilted position up and down. The exposition. However,

692
00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:50.880
the left and right was off, and I saw what

693
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:54.519
you see here as a sample as an example, that.

694
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:56.559
The pillar was offset.

695
00:41:57.360 --> 00:41:59.679
When I measured how far it was offset, it was

696
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:04.119
seven pixels, and so that had to be factored into

697
00:42:04.519 --> 00:42:07.320
the calculations of the x y coordinates of every window

698
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:10.639
that we were going to measure that. Okay, these cameras,

699
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.239
the camera is essentially in the same location. However it

700
00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:17.360
had moved by the equivalent of seven pixels on the recording.

701
00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:22.480
Okay, once the video had been adjusted by those seven pixels,

702
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.480
what did investigator Scott Kodes find. Well, first they went

703
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:31.320
through opening by opening and compared the two videos. Remember

704
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:35.599
there were seven openings either windows or glass doors in

705
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.320
the rear of the Halderson home that were capable of

706
00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:39.239
emitting lights.

707
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:42.760
The red box on the left is the location of

708
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.639
the dining room light where Deputy wilk stood waved his light.

709
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:48.719
I frame averaged through to try to see on average

710
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:51.639
where the light fell. And on the right is the

711
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:53.119
location of the flickering window.

712
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:56.400
And you reached a conclusion.

713
00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.960
Right, So, in the first experiment, the conclusion was that

714
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:02.519
the flickering light on July second was not coming from

715
00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:04.440
the dining room light or the dining.

716
00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:09.880
Room window rather. Okay, the red block on the left represents.

717
00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:13.239
The location of that kitchen window, and the red block

718
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.880
on the right is the location of the flickering light

719
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.079
from the night or in the morning of July second.

720
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:20.719
And you reached a conclusion there I did.

721
00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:25.119
So like the first experiment, the second experiment was that

722
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:27.800
the conclusion was that the flickering light was not coming

723
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:29.679
from the kitchen window on July second.

724
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:32.239
We'll keep going kitchen door.

725
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:34.599
Now we're on the third light in from the left

726
00:43:34.599 --> 00:43:37.400
at the kitchen door, and you reached a conclusion there.

727
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:38.039
I did.

728
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:40.679
The flickering light was not coming on July second from

729
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:41.559
the kitchen door.

730
00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:45.880
Now we're onto the fireplace window, the fourth window in,

731
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:48.119
and you reached a conclusion there.

732
00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:52.400
Yes, So in Sly sixty four, the conclusion was clear

733
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.679
to me that the flickering light from July second was

734
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:59.079
coming from the fireplace window, the window closest to the fireplace.

735
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:03.440
Okay, just briefly tell us about this slide and why

736
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:04.119
you included it.

737
00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:08.960
So in Slight eighty seven, this is image eighty three

738
00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.960
eighty nine from the crime scene video that I recorded

739
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:15.480
throughout the scene, and it shows the window from the

740
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:18.639
inside closest to the fireplace. This is what I've been

741
00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:23.199
referring to in the experiments as fireplace window number four.

742
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:26.840
Okay, And it is your conclusion that it was this

743
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:29.239
window that was the source of the flickering light in

744
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:31.079
the early morning hours July second.

745
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:31.599
Yes.

746
00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:38.519
The next portion of investigator Scott Koon's testimony is him

747
00:44:38.599 --> 00:44:41.880
introducing a video clip that he had prepared for the jury.

748
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.199
What he had done was isolate the time period during

749
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:48.960
those early morning hours of July second, when the fireplace

750
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:53.639
window was flickering in the security video footage. He enlarged

751
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:56.079
the picture and sped up the footage so the jury

752
00:44:56.159 --> 00:45:01.320
could see exactly what was occurring in that window. Now,

753
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:05.159
the entire video is thirty five minutes long, and it's silent,

754
00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:07.400
so even if I wanted to play it for you,

755
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:10.960
there would be no point. So I'll describe for you

756
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:11.840
what we.

757
00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:18.039
See thirty five a little thirty five minutes long, and

758
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:20.280
again just putting everyone in the right mindset, we're talking

759
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:23.480
about the early morning hours of July second, and in fact,

760
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:26.400
there'll be a timestamp on this correct, That is correct?

761
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:27.159
All right, We'll begin.

762
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:34.719
Playing at around twelve nineteen am, we begin to see

763
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:37.880
the first flickers of light emerge from the fireplace window.

764
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:41.440
That light begins to shine quite brightly for the next

765
00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:45.639
eleven minutes. Around twelve thirty am, the room goes dark,

766
00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:48.960
but only for a minute. By twelve thirty one, the

767
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:52.400
fire is raging again. The light takes up the entire

768
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.559
space of the window and then slowly begins to die

769
00:45:55.639 --> 00:45:59.719
back down. At twelve thirty four, a giant flare is visible,

770
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:03.480
even brighter than the previous one, but again it dwindles

771
00:46:03.519 --> 00:46:06.880
back down, this time to a low glow that persists.

772
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:12.280
This pattern continues for roughly the next two hours. Occasionally

773
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:15.599
the kitchen lights come on for thirty seconds or a minute,

774
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:18.440
but other than that, the video shows the same thing,

775
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:23.679
a bright flicker, a soft flicker, and then a few

776
00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:25.320
moments of darkness in between.

777
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:31.840
And we'll continue playing, deputy. I'll just ask a question

778
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.480
to put everything in context. In the next twenty minutes

779
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:36.079
to a half hour or so, this video is it's

780
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:38.280
sped up. There's going to be times in which that

781
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:40.519
window grows brighter and then maybe other lights come on.

782
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:45.079
Correct, That is correct, okay, And that'll.

783
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:47.199
Happen in the next twenty minutes or so of the video,

784
00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:48.360
but it's sped up obviously.

785
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:56.880
At around twelve thirty am, the window grows brighter than

786
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:01.760
looks physically possible. Those four pixels are nearly completely white,

787
00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:06.239
and that intensity continues with the occasional flicker for the

788
00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:07.719
next thirty minutes.

789
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:11.440
This I'll just note at around two fifty nine you

790
00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:17.760
switch to one time speed. Correct. That's correct. And now

791
00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:19.360
some additional lights have been illuminated.

792
00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:21.719
I think you've identified those as kitchen window, kitchen door,

793
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:27.760
that's correct, some dining room one, and fair to say

794
00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:30.400
that just about it. The just before the three am mark,

795
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:33.440
the fireplace window appeared to go dark for a second.

796
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:35.039
There it did.

797
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:41.239
That's so called transition around three am from fulbright to

798
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:45.480
dark was rather abrupt, and we think we have an

799
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:49.159
explanation for that. We'll get into it later. By three

800
00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:53.000
fifteen am, the fire is burning strong again and continues

801
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:56.519
for about an hour until four to fifteen am, when

802
00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:59.400
it appears to burn down a little bit. At four

803
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:02.519
forty five the sun begins to rise, and by five

804
00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:05.480
am the picture is too bright for the contrast to

805
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:09.519
distinguish bright and dark pixels from that distance. The fire

806
00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:12.440
could have been burning even after that point, but we

807
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:14.960
can't tell.

808
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:16.599
Your view of the camera system and all of your

809
00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:18.880
expert analysis in this case. Are you confident that that

810
00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:21.440
window that we saw around three in the morning that

811
00:48:21.519 --> 00:48:24.599
was very very bright and then just in a kind

812
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:27.199
of in a snap, went's dark. Are you confident that

813
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:28.519
that is the fireplace window? Four?

814
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:33.119
Yes, I am no. For the questions cross examination, no,

815
00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:35.840
thank you. May this witness be excused? He may be

816
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:40.239
excused and released. I'll make a decision on that at

817
00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:40.760
the lunch break.

818
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.280
Thank you, youty your excuse from the remainder of today,

819
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:45.400
and I don't think there are any exhibits in front

820
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:45.679
of you.

821
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:54.880
From the hours of roughly twelve am midnight to four

822
00:48:54.920 --> 00:49:00.599
am on July second, twenty twenty one, Chandler Holders carried

823
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:04.159
pieces of his parents chopped up bodies from the basement

824
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:08.159
to the family room fireplace. He had a measuring tape

825
00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:10.480
to make sure he had cut the pieces small enough

826
00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:15.559
to fit inside, and then for hours upon hours, he

827
00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:21.440
sat and watched his parents' hands, feet, pieces of their legs,

828
00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:30.760
and finally their heads burn. The fat and grease from

829
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:35.679
their appendages dripped down into the flames, occasionally creating flares

830
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:38.639
so intense that they lit up the room so bright

831
00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:42.079
it shined like a star and was visible on a

832
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:48.559
security camera over three hundred feet away. Just like nearly

833
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:53.079
every stage of Chandler's plan, this was also flawed, but

834
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:56.960
residential fireplace does not burn nearly hot enough to incinerate

835
00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:00.880
human body parts, perhaps a few p pieces of flesh,

836
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:05.119
but not entire limbs and heads. What we now know

837
00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:09.320
is that what happened on the video at roughly three am,

838
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:12.679
when the fire abruptly went from full bright to dark,

839
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:17.000
is that Chandler had inadvertently created grease fire inside his

840
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:20.119
home in a panic daze an attempt to put it

841
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.800
out as quickly as he could, he threw a pot

842
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:27.800
of water on the fire. Yet this created another immediate problem.

843
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:31.159
As you likely know, you can't throw cold water onto

844
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:35.960
blazing hot glass. The slide that protected the fire from

845
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:39.159
the family room was made of glass, and one of

846
00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:43.320
the panes immediately shattered. The fire had been extinguished, but

847
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:46.559
now there was hot glass all over the family room floor,

848
00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:51.719
which is exactly how and when Chandler cut his foot.

849
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:03.719
Coming up on the next episode of Tapes from the Dark,

850
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:07.719
Side will explore Chandler Holderson's movements on the morning of

851
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:09.000
July second.

852
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:12.159
And that was for a purchase of two ten pound

853
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:12.880
bags of ice.

854
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:17.119
Correct Stay tuned till after the credits roll for a

855
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:21.079
bonus clip from my conversation with Smitty. It's going to

856
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:26.639
be relevant to the upcoming episodes. I'm Teezy, I've been

857
00:51:26.679 --> 00:51:28.840
your host today. I'm the creator of Tapes from the

858
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:31.239
Dark Side, and I just wanted to take a moment

859
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.599
to thank everybody for their patients with this episode. I

860
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:36.880
didn't mean to leave you hanging for this long. I

861
00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:39.559
was already running behind when I came down with an

862
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:43.360
ear infection. I debated even telling you that because I

863
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:46.559
don't really like to make excuses, but I couldn't hear

864
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:49.119
for a while. I had to get antibiotics and a

865
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:53.039
couple different types of ear drops. Hearing is almost back

866
00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:55.719
to one hundred percent now, and I really can't tell

867
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:58.679
you how much it means to me to have all

868
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:02.400
of your continued to work through this time. Being an

869
00:52:02.440 --> 00:52:05.400
independent creator means I kind of have to wake up

870
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:10.000
each day just expecting everything to disappear, or maybe not

871
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:13.760
expecting it, but at least preparing for it. Mentally, you

872
00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:16.119
just never know one hundred percent what's going to happen.

873
00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:19.039
If a hosting company is going to go down, the

874
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.599
ad money could dry up, Patreon could burn out. So

875
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:26.760
I treat every day of doing this as a blessing.

876
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:30.960
I truly feel privileged being able to tell stories like this.

877
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:33.800
I know I've mentioned that we don't make a ton

878
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:37.239
of money, and we don't, but I do make enough

879
00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:40.800
to do this full time, and I'm so grateful for that.

880
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:45.039
So thank you everyone, Even if you're not on Patreon,

881
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:47.840
if you've just followed the show and you listen to

882
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:51.360
our episodes, that is huge. So thank you for sticking around,

883
00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:54.400
thank you for being patient with me. And a special

884
00:52:54.440 --> 00:52:57.519
thank you to our Patreon members who really are the

885
00:52:57.559 --> 00:53:01.000
backbone of the support of the podcast. So grateful for

886
00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:05.000
you all. Our newest Dark signers this month are Shavaughn,

887
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I read Anime, Suzie lane Ward, Carrie lank us n

888
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:17.239
nineteen ninety two, Leslie Wilson, Amanda Moore, John Evans, Carrie Leonards,

889
00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:23.840
Cassie Hannah, Stephanie Conley, Sarah Clauson, Kelly Young from UK.

890
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:29.400
I appreciate all of our international supporters Michelle Shrek, Willie Hall,

891
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:36.960
Alison Lb, Jamie Eichorn, Caroline Vitel, James Kent, Mete, Eric

892
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La probably messing that one up, Audrey Ziggy Him, Christopher Dean,

893
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:50.639
Melinda t and Sarah Johnston. We had two new yearly members,

894
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:56.599
Kim Vacarella and Sean Negabauer. If you joined for a year,

895
00:53:56.679 --> 00:54:00.559
you get two months discounted off your price. If I

896
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:03.960
mispronounce your name, I would love to correct it. Please

897
00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:06.719
let me know at Tapes from the Darkside Pod at

898
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:10.880
gmail dot com, or if I missed your Patreon donation.

899
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:15.360
I enjoy being able to recognize everybody who contributes. You

900
00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:18.360
can also reach out to me and follow me on Instagram.

901
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:22.039
At the dark Side Pod, we have two new producers,

902
00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:26.480
Fran and Aaron, and as always we read out our

903
00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:29.320
producer's names at the end of each episode. You guys

904
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:35.239
are the true MVPs, the Mitochondria, the powerhouse of the pod.

905
00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:42.239
Thank you to Melanie Otis Reck, Kristin, Rice, Jesse Bateman, Mariah,

906
00:54:42.679 --> 00:54:49.400
Monique Wilkinson, Teddy Redmond, Jason Irvin, Jessica Cooper, Fiona Gibson,

907
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908
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Vanessa Miller, Jonathan Cox, Genoeway, Bunco, Tyler Ernster, Sherry Sly,

909
00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:10.440
Shelley Jones, Alexis, Kathleen and Greg b. Is it your

910
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:14.920
time to join the band become a Darksider? I think

911
00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:17.079
it might be if you want to check out what

912
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:20.719
we have to offer, which are monthly bonus episodes, a

913
00:55:20.840 --> 00:55:25.000
little community group chat where we check in, talk about

914
00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:29.760
movies we've been watching, talk about cases, early access to episodes,

915
00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:34.039
and all of our episodes ad free, plus some cool merch.

916
00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:37.760
At least go take a look at patreon dot com

917
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:41.599
slash Tapes from the dark Side, or download the Patreon

918
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:45.280
app and search Tapes from the dark Side. You can

919
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:48.239
listen to all of our episodes in the app. They're

920
00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:52.079
sorted by their seasons to just a tap of a button,

921
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:54.639
you have the full season there with all the bonus

922
00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:57.880
after shows. You can tap a button and see all

923
00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:01.679
of our new bonus episodes on the Night Terror series,

924
00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:06.440
which is one off episodes covering a variety of just weird,

925
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:10.519
interesting topics. And I'm enjoying doing the Night Terrors, so

926
00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:14.559
I think that's going to be continuing for the foreseeable future.

927
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:20.519
As always, thank you to Augusta Trevor Oram who created

928
00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:24.280
original music for the show. Thank you to twenty six hundred,

929
00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:26.960
who allowed us to adapt one of his songs for

930
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:30.840
our main theme before we go today. I just wanted

931
00:56:30.840 --> 00:56:33.480
to let you know I was thinking about putting a

932
00:56:33.639 --> 00:56:37.840
pool in my backyard. But I was talking to a

933
00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:40.559
friend of mine and he brought up a good point

934
00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:41.840
about pools.

935
00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:46.599
Yeah, there's terribly risky, terrifying things.

936
00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:52.800
Until next time, try to enjoy the daylight.

937
00:56:56.719 --> 00:57:01.480
Did he ever open up to you about like cheating

938
00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:05.039
on cats, or like having other girlfriends or anything like that.

939
00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:08.679
You know what he did? Had one point when I

940
00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:11.760
got back to the States, he had said to me, Hey, man,

941
00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:14.320
there's this girl I really like. But I kind of

942
00:57:14.360 --> 00:57:17.880
fucked up. I did this. What should I do? And

943
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:21.400
I said, honestly, man, if you accidentally cheat on this

944
00:57:21.480 --> 00:57:23.800
girl like as you did, or you cheat on her

945
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:26.199
in general, you should just be straight up with her,

946
00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:30.119
just fucking tell her went up to that shit, and

947
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:34.719
he said, okay, thanks, but I'm pretty sure he also

948
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:37.639
went was like, well, maybe I can get like a

949
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:40.519
voice disguise or something and say I'm like this person

950
00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:47.000
to like prove my location or some shit. So yeah, fuck,

951
00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:47.440
I don't know.

952
00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:51.360
Do you think that's uh, because I know he called

953
00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:55.760
his dad pretending to be one of the school.

954
00:57:57.159 --> 00:57:57.519
Or whatever.

955
00:57:58.840 --> 00:58:02.039
Yeah, do you think he was using some kind of disguiser?

956
00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:04.440
I mean it seems like he had to have been,

957
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:07.239
because his dad would have known right away.

958
00:58:07.400 --> 00:58:08.320
Right, surely.

959
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:13.119
That's interesting.

960
00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:16.000
Oh and did you mention or I might be making

961
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:20.480
this up, but I thought somewhere he might have mentioned

962
00:58:20.599 --> 00:58:24.159
you he was thinking about dump dumping cat or breaking

963
00:58:24.239 --> 00:58:24.679
up with her.

964
00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:29.079
Yeah, he had mentioned that to me that he was

965
00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:30.199
thinking about breaking up with her.

966
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:35.280
Was that after he talked to you about the cheating thing?

967
00:58:35.599 --> 00:58:40.639
Or I'm actually not quite sure. I don't know when

968
00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:44.800
the stage of this fucking grand scheme of his that

969
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:46.639
started fucking being a part of the plan.

970
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:49.960
Yeah. Interesting.

971
00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:52.719
I mean it wasn't like you were friends with her,

972
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:54.960
so you haven't talked with her or anything.

973
00:58:56.079 --> 00:59:00.719
No, just one time before like the like where she

974
00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:04.840
had done whatever, I caught her like tat. I just

975
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:07.480
want to let you know it's starting to look like

976
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:11.599
you really did do this. Oh and when I talked

977
00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:14.000
to her on the phone. It seemed seemed like a

978
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:18.159
real emotional change. It seemed like a oh, like she

979
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:20.880
tried to make an emotion up. You know what I mean,

980
00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:23.840
You're weird. I don't know if I'm just talking out

981
00:59:23.840 --> 00:59:24.800
my ass though, So.

982
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:27.960
You got you got the feeling that she wasn't to

983
00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:33.519
the point where she was gonna accept it yet.

984
00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:35.079
I don't know, I feel like

985
00:59:35.119 --> 00:59:40.440
She had something to do with it, right, Interesting, a

986
00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:44.840
dark side, not