Sept. 3, 2024

S11, Chapter 12: The Ash Trap

...ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

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Season 11S11 | The Haldersons

...we therefore commit this body to the ground, earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
— A phrase for burial in the Book of Common Prayer.

Ashes to ashes, funk to funky, we know Major Tom's a junkie. Strung out in heaven's high and hitting an all-time low.
— David Bowie

Episode images:
https://imgbox.com/g/OPyqIgakHY

—

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—

Music:
Augusta Treverorum
https://linktr.ee/trvrrm

20six Hundred
https://20sixhundred.bandcamp.com/

WEBVTT

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What effect does fire have on the human body.

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It can change it dramatically heat.

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00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:09.919
When heat is applied to a body, heat will generally

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cause the skin to tighten and shrink, Wrinkles around the

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corners of the eyes, in the corner of the mouth

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began to smooth out somewhat. Those changes eventually will get

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down to the destruction of the skin, the fat, the

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muscle tissue, and can ultimately, if the fire is allowed

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to continue to burn, down to the destruction of the

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bone tissue as well.

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Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality.

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Listener discretion is advised.

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July first had been a long, long night for Chandler,

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perhaps the longest night of his life, and the day

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ahead wouldn't necessarily be any easier. He had already made

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plans to hang out with Kat, his girlfriend, He had

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mounting pressure from his friends, family, and Krista and Bart's

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coworkers to explain where they had gone, and most importantly,

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he had two disembodied torsos to deal with. Chandler would

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also be facing these challenges on no sleep, having just experienced,

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though admittedly self inflicted, one of the most traumatic things

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a person could possibly ever experience murdering, chopping up, and

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then burning the decapitated heads of your own parents. The

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toll that such a thing would take on the psyche

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cannot be overstated. The so called family room that housed

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the wood burning fireplace in the Alderson home was covered

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in blood, and the inside of that fireplace was filled

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with ash. One thing we didn't mention in the previous

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episode is that it was also almost surely covered in

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Chandler's sweat. One thing we touched on at the very

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end of chapter nine, which is now a couple of

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chapters back, is that the Holderson house had no central

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air conditioning. They did have one unit in the kitchen.

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I'm not sure if it was a window unit or

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a mini split, but Catherine actually talked about this in

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her interview with police.

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Yeah, and they don't really have like central air. They

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have a one air conditioner in the kitchen. So their

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house is pretty hot. They got some like new fans

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that go into their windows.

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Those run a lot, Yeah, commons in the house on Yeah,

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it's very common because Ms Holderson she would just open windows.

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She didn't really want the one going, especially if it

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was going to be cool. In the night, she preferred

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just opening all the windows and turning the fans on.

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Right now, the outside temperature that night in Madison, Wisconsin

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briefly reached a low of fifty four degrees fahrenheit twelve

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degrees celsius for our international listeners, so not exactly scorching.

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But when you're shut inside with only the help of

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fans to try to cool down a raging fire, it

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gets hot quick. In fact, we think that the fans

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were partly to blame for adding so much oxygen to

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the fire that it was able to burn so much

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of Chandler's parents' bodies, and also for the flare up

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that led to Chandler throwing the water on the fire

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that led to the pane of glass instantly shattering, which

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we know now led to his foot being cut and

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him bleeding all over the place. As we covered in

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the previous episode, around four forty five am on July second,

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the sun began to rise, and buy five am, the

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picture on the security footage was too bright to tell

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if there was a fire burning anymore in the Halderson

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family room. Were able to pick up the timeline on

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that same morning. Just a few hours later, at seven

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oh seven am when Chandler enters a store called Fleet

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Farm in Madison, Wisconsin. Fleet Farm was only about an

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eight minute drive from the Halderson house, less than four

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miles depending on the route you took. And it's a

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kind of hardware store that's common throughout the Midwest, basically

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a Low's or a home depot. Chandler was there for

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a specific purpose. He was there to buy a polyester tarp.

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This tarp just so happened to fit the exact description

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of the one that turned up on Cress's farm wrapped

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around pieces of Bart Holderson's dismembered body.

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And how are you employed, sir, that was previously employed

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with Fleet Farm?

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In what role Lost Prevention Team lead? Did you sometimes

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have the opportunity to work with the police and as

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they were investigating things?

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Yes, very frequently, And at some.

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Point where you asked to provide police some surveillance footage

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from inside the Fleet Farm and maybe even a little

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bit outside, but mostly inside. On July second, in kind

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of early in the morning, around seven to twenty or so, Yes,

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it was We're going to play clip five to one,

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what are we looking at? And clip five to one?

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This is our last isle in the hardware department. It's

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right next to the farm department where we keep tarps

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and some outdoor gear.

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Okay, we'll play clip fifty six. What are we looking

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at there?

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This is again up at the front entrance, and that

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would be lane one. Is the closest checkout laying there?

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And do you recognize that item that the person in

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that video is purchasing? Yes?

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I do?

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And what is that?

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That's a black and silver tarp.

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In the security footage that has played for the court,

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you can see Chandler, or at least is Doppelganger, standing

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at the checkout line in Fleet Farm, wearing a baseball cap,

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his eyes focused on the card reader as he enters

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a card into the electronic chip reader and completes his purchase.

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The fact that Chandler uses a credit card instead of cash,

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and makes no attempt to find a store that doesn't

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have cameras, and also makes no attempt to disguise his

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appearance on the surface, seems like yet another careless mistake

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on the laundry list of Chandler's incompetence. Yet I started

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to think to myself, what would I do if I

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didn't have cash on hand, and I wanted to avoid

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using a credit card. Well, I guess first I'd check

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around the house and see if I could find some change.

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And if I couldn't, well, I guess I go to

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the ATM. Except oh wait, that's right, there's cameras at

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the AATM. And not only that, you have to use

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your bank card. I'm not going to keep going down

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this rabbit hole, but I wanted to quickly make the

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point that in this digital age, it's a challenge to

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simply obtain paper money without leaving a record, let alone

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murdering two people. Chandler made many, many silly mistakes. But

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let's say this was the eighties or even the nineties

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or two thousands, before doorbell cameras were everywhere, and before

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cash was an afterthought. I think that the probability of

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Chandler possibly getting away with this crime in that era

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is at least a potentiality. Now, I'm not saying that

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it would have been likely, but the odds would have

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certainly gone up. Not to belabor what is essentially a

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trivial part of this case, but I want to play

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for you the defense's cross examination of this witness, not

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for any particular reason other than because it was one

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of only a handful of times that the defense chose

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to cross examine any of the witnesses. This clip is

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less than a minute long. In fact, it's only a

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few seconds long, and the kind of questions that Chandler's

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defense counsel asks here are I think an accurate representation

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of the kinds of questions that are asked during the

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few other cross examinations that take place.

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Thank you, so good luck in yours for your new

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role at the impost examination.

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Thank you now, sir.

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As part of your investigation into this you were asked

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to see if that card had been used for any

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previous transactions.

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Correct.

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Correct, and you were only able to locate one previous transaction.

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Correct, that's correct, and that was.

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From back in September of twenty twenty correct.

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Correct, that's all.

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Thank you, any redirect, and just to note for the record,

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the video clips were played in their entirety.

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Shortly after this purchase, Chandler returned to his home, and

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while he had successfully managed to dispose of a decent

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percentage of his parents' bodies, curiously, or perhaps not so curiously,

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now that we know, Chandler mo He made almost no

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further attempt to cover up what he had done. In

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the family room. He left a measuring tape there, which

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it's not too hard to figure out why that was there,

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even left a piece of bone sitting right on top

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of a piece of wood. In the fireplace. As you

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heard in the last episode, he gave a half hearted

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attempt to clean one of the glass panes, but even

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now was done with very little effort, And Chandler made

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no attempt to clean what would be perhaps the most

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important location where the majority of the evidence was collected,

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and that was the ash trap. An ash trap, as

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it's also known an ash catcher or an ash dump,

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is pretty much exactly what it sounds like, a little

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cavity underneath your house, sometimes built into the foundation, that

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holds the ash from a fireplace. The ash will fall

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down through some kind of opening in the floor of

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that fireplace, usually a little cast iron flap that you

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can open and close. When investigators went into the basement

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of the Halderson house to check the ash trap, they

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made a number of horrific findings.

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William Boswell, I'm a special agent with the State of

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Wisconsin Department of Justice.

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Any particular area of expertise I'm assigned to the Arson Bureau.

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What effect does fire have on the human body?

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It can change it dramatically heat.

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When heat is applied to a body, heat will generally

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cause the skin to tighten and shrink, Wrinkles around the

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corners of the eyes, in the corner of the mouth

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began to smooth out somewhat with just.

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The application of heat.

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But as the body continues to heat within a compartment

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or a bedroom, or wherever it might be, those changes

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eventually will get down to the destruction of the skin,

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the fat, the muscle tissue, and can ultimately, if the

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fire is allowed to continue to burn, down to the

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destruction of the bone tissue as well.

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And as part of that experience, if you unfortunately had

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to see the human body in various states of being

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burned on different occasions, Yes, sir, sometimes partially and sometimes

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more completely.

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That's correct.

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Talk to us generally about fire. What temperature does fire

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generally burn at?

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What any kind of smuff most any fire that you

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experience generally does not burn beyond about the.

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Temperature of around eighteen hundred degrees Is that sufficient to

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incinerate completely the human body into ash.

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It generally would not tell me about that. Generally you

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end up needing some additional if I can use word

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assistance to result in the destruction of human tissue, even

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devices that are designed in crematoriums to completely destroy a

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body often will leave various small fragments of bone, not

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very often tissue, but small fragments of bone that are

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left over after that cremation event. So short of adding

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additional oxygen or maybe changing the fuel oxygen ratio and

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how the fire burns, it's very, very difficult to get

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a complete consumption of human body just from the fire.

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When you say insert oxygen, what a small household fan,

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I suppose there's one sitting right there. Something of that

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size be enough to do what you just mentioned in

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terms of inserting oxygen. If that were applied to perhaps

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just a residential fire, it.

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Would certainly help.

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I mean, if by example, you know, if you're lighting

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a small campfire or something of that nature, or lighting

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a fire at your own fireplace, you may often blow

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on that or wave or you use a set of

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bellows or maybe wave your hand to add and move

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additional air or oxygen across the surface of that fire.

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To increase the effectiveness of that fire.

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Sure in crime scenes you've responded to and in your

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training and experience, where the human body has been burned,

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are are there usually some remains left that you're able

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to identify or find. Generally yes, And in perhaps the

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more extreme of those, it's what are those remains? What's

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usually left?

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You'll find very small pieces of bone fragment, the more

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thick or dense pieces of the human skeleton, perhaps kneecaps,

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the ball joints of hips and shoulders, where the bone

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is more densely compacted because of just its development. Teeth

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will oftentimes remain thicker portions maybe around the orbits of

236
00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.320
the eye, maybe portions of the base of the skull.

237
00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.879
In the performance of my normal duties, if we are

238
00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:35.360
out conducting a fire death investigation and we're looking to

239
00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:40.399
recover human remains inside a structure that may be buried

240
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:45.200
beneath debris, that may be in collapse, whatever it might be,

241
00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:49.440
we rely very much on our senses sometimes to get

242
00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:52.960
us there. Sometimes it's a sense of sight, sometimes it

243
00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:56.240
is feel. You can sometimes walk over top of human

244
00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.399
remains that are beneath the ash and not know it

245
00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.879
until you feel a difference in what you're standing on,

246
00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:07.519
and sometimes it is smell. And I equate that smell

247
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.879
very often because I love to barbecue. It smells like

248
00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:15.159
barbecued pork, oftentimes for the grease that you would get

249
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.279
from barbecuing a pork shoulder.

250
00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:20.159
And this is the smell.

251
00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:23.240
That I associated with what I was gathering from inside

252
00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:25.159
that fireplace when I was down in front of it

253
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:26.039
and working near it.

254
00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.240
We'll go to the next line. At some point you

255
00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.200
opened up the fireplace, correct, that's correct. What types of

256
00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:35.919
observations did you personally make based on your training experience

257
00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:37.639
once you were able to open up the fireplace and

258
00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:38.399
look inside.

259
00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:43.200
There are a few areas of discoloration on both the left,

260
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:47.759
rear and right hand sides of the stonework. Inside the fireplace,

261
00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:53.399
there is a discoloration or a change in coloration, if

262
00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.879
you will, on the fireplace great from left to right.

263
00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:59.840
And as we got in a little bit further and

264
00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.679
get to examine things a little more closely, there is

265
00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:07.720
almost like a greasy residue on the pool chain on

266
00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.360
the right hand side, which controls the fireplace damper at

267
00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.480
the top of the chimney at the bottom of the

268
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.840
fireplace or the fireplace floor, and what you would find

269
00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:22.279
in most solid fuel burning fireplaces or furnaces, you would

270
00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.960
find a trapdoor, if you will, or an ash dump door.

271
00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:28.519
It's a flat metal.

272
00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.399
Door that rotates on a central pin left or right.

273
00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.039
And in a fireplace that burns wood, to get rid

274
00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:38.480
of the ash, you would as to keep your fireplace clean.

275
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.519
You would open that up, sweep the ash down in

276
00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:44.200
and it would go into some type of container.

277
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:46.600
Or area where the ash would be secured until you

278
00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:47.159
cleaned it out.

279
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:49.639
Is this a common feature in homes?

280
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:52.799
Yes, in wood burning fireplaces, yes, okay.

281
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.919
And the area in which this goes into is that

282
00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.559
generally a fire resistant area.

283
00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:07.119
Generally generally it could go into an ash bucket. You know,

284
00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:09.400
I can tell you from personal experience growing up. It

285
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:13.440
went to another unused fireplace in the basement of my

286
00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:15.920
parents' home and it just went to the floor in

287
00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:17.559
the basement and there was nothing there to catch it.

288
00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:24.200
Let us now rejoin our friend, doctor Christina Figueroa Soto,

289
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:28.079
who we heard from in chapter ten a quick refresher.

290
00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:32.160
She works for the Dane County Medical Examiner's Office as

291
00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:37.160
their forensic anthropologist and chief of investigations. I'm going to

292
00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.839
play for you this portion of doctor SODA's testimony in

293
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:44.720
chronological order, the same order that it was given in court.

294
00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:49.319
She starts off with not the ash traps specifically, but

295
00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:53.079
rather another key piece of evidence, in this case, a

296
00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.519
household tool that we've all used in our daily lives,

297
00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:59.960
perhaps some more than others, depending on your personal level

298
00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:05.440
of hygiene, vacuum cleaner. In this case, the vacuum cleaner's

299
00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.000
dust been happens to be filled with more than what

300
00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:10.680
is just your common household dust.

301
00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:13.559
You at some point examined the vacuum cleaner that was

302
00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:16.559
found in the Halderson home. That is correct, okay, And

303
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:18.559
is that in fact the vacuum cleaner.

304
00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:19.759
That is the vacuum cleaner?

305
00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:22.960
What happened? How did you examine it? And tell us

306
00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:23.960
what we're looking at here?

307
00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:30.200
So we pretty much dissected the vacuum. So we almost

308
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.559
did an autopsy on the vacuum. So we remove everything

309
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.000
from it so that we can get to the inside.

310
00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.119
So we documented every single step of the way, and

311
00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.319
what you're looking at is pretty much what we were

312
00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:44.880
able to recover from the inside of the vacuum, right.

313
00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:46.000
So there's a lot of dust.

314
00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:50.400
However, there were other elements there that we were able

315
00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:50.920
to recover.

316
00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.000
Sure, and I'm gonna ask you about a couple of those.

317
00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:57.359
Let's just start maybe on the far right side of

318
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:01.440
that tray. There's some paper looking material.

319
00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:01.839
What is that?

320
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.720
You mean, the white paper that is shredded.

321
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:10.119
Yeah, let's start there. Yeah, we're able to identify that

322
00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:11.519
as anything other than just paper.

323
00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:13.079
It was just shred of paper.

324
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:17.160
Yeah, Okay. Above that, there's a small pile of looks

325
00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.160
to be debris. We're able to identify that at all.

326
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.319
Seems we were not really able to id it.

327
00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:25.759
Seems like it was more like seeds and kind of

328
00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:28.240
random things that you find outside.

329
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:31.720
And if we keep moving counterclockwise, I suppose around there's

330
00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:36.240
a pile of clear material there almost looks like rock salt.

331
00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:37.839
What is that?

332
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:39.119
That was actually glass?

333
00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:42.359
And during this case, while you were in the holder snome,

334
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:44.400
did you have an opportunity to actually look through the

335
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:45.359
fireplace yourself?

336
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:45.920
I did?

337
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:48.160
And is that glass consistent with glass you found in

338
00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:48.759
the fireplace?

339
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.160
There was broken glass in the fireplace, Okay.

340
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.319
Slightly to the left of that. Continuing going counterclockwise, there

341
00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:57.079
appears to be a pile of debris. What is that?

342
00:19:58.160 --> 00:19:59.400
We were not one hundred percent sure.

343
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.039
Seems like it's almost like burn, something kind of woodish.

344
00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:05.839
Who are not really able to identify that very well?

345
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.799
Sure it was quite dark.

346
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:09.960
And we'll save the bottom left corner for a second.

347
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:12.279
But in the very center beers to be a pile

348
00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:13.359
of dirt. Is that what it is?

349
00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.319
Yeah, I was just dirged from normal vacuum.

350
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:18.680
And then the bottom there's some dog here, pretty much,

351
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.200
I think, So, yeah, okay, there's some white rocks, and

352
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:24.720
so the judge is clear on the record. I'm pointing

353
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:28.079
to the bottom left corner of this trade. What are those?

354
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:33.720
That is bone?

355
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.200
How are you able to tell it's bone?

356
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:40.519
Again by the size and the shape and the morphology? Right,

357
00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:45.599
So bone is very unique. So when you're looking at bone,

358
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:49.359
you're looking at two types of bone. One remember that

359
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.880
spongy look like bone that we had in the cervical vertebrae.

360
00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:55.240
So that's one type of bone, and that's usually on

361
00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:58.759
the inside. Right, you want to think about it as

362
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.079
sponge that has little holes, and those little holes are

363
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.160
the ones that kind of give you the nutrients right,

364
00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:07.880
that's where the blood vessels. That's kind of the reasoning

365
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:12.920
for that. The outside of the bone is called compact bone.

366
00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:16.759
I always think about it as concrete. It looks like cement, right,

367
00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.960
So it's usually the outside of it that the reason

368
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:21.799
because like the reason why it is like that is

369
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:24.200
because it gives you the shape. Right, So the inside

370
00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:26.359
is very hollow so that you can get the nutrients

371
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.920
and the outside is the one that gives you the shape.

372
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.759
So you do want that to be really strong and

373
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:35.400
really hard. So whenever you have bone pieces, I'm always.

374
00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:35.759
Looking for that.

375
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:40.319
I'm looking for that spongy bone and that really concrete

376
00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:43.319
or compact bone. And there were several features on those

377
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.559
little fragments that can tell me that that was bone.

378
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.519
And relatively to other fragments you may have found in

379
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:52.240
this investigation in the holder's home where those somewhat.

380
00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.680
Small there are very small and very fragile.

381
00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:57.559
So we talked about it being bone. And just so

382
00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.759
no one you cannot positively say that's human beane, correct.

383
00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:01.240
No, I can't.

384
00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:03.599
What's the difference between what you're able to identify as

385
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.400
bone and what you can positively identify as human bone?

386
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:07.240
What are you looking for.

387
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:12.519
So I'm looking for again features, right, so the morphological features,

388
00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:15.680
the size and the shape. Aside from that, I'm also

389
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:18.160
looking so bone is the one that is response. So

390
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:21.119
the bone actually attaches to the muscle. Right, So those

391
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:25.079
areas actually have some buff bumps and grooves.

392
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.680
That are very unique to the bone. Right.

393
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.440
So, as an anthropologist and as an osteologist, right, somebody

394
00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.519
that knows the bones really well, I know where all

395
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.200
those features are, right, So I know where each muscle attaches.

396
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.079
I know the features of each bone as well.

397
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:44.519
Right, So facets like those flat areas where it attaches

398
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:48.160
to another bone. So me knowing the features and the

399
00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:53.000
characteristics of each human bone, I can actually look at

400
00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:56.480
another fragment and say, yes, this is human, this is

401
00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.480
not human. Right, we do get training on non human remains, right, So,

402
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:05.799
dear dogs, anything else that we know potentially could be

403
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:09.759
of an analysis in the future.

404
00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.759
Sure, are you able to say whether or not or

405
00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:16.359
what type of bone that is, whether it's an animal

406
00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:17.839
bone or whether it is a human bone.

407
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:18.640
No, I can't.

408
00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:19.759
All you can say it's bone.

409
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.480
I can say that it is bone. I cannot say

410
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:22.000
that it's human.

411
00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:26.839
Before we head to the Holderson basement. Let's hear about

412
00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.000
something that we have heard referenced a handful of times

413
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.240
up until this point, and that is a couple more

414
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:38.599
pieces of evidence that Chandler left in the fireplace. Perhaps

415
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:42.519
considering the location of these items, they just might be

416
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:47.599
the most egregious example of Chandler's carelessness. Sitting right atop

417
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.599
the woodpile, this is what he left for anyone who

418
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.640
happened to walk past the fireplace to see.

419
00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:56.720
There's a spot on the top of the fireplace kind

420
00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:58.720
of there in the center that was of interest to people.

421
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:00.759
Yes, that is the and what I was called in

422
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:01.359
the first place.

423
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:04.960
And just to go back, we're talking about the spot

424
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:06.440
on the very center of that photograph.

425
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:07.799
Yeah, that white spot.

426
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:11.039
Yes, were you able to take that little piece off

427
00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:12.000
at some point?

428
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:15.039
So when I arrived to the residents, that piece was

429
00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.440
actually already removed by one of the investigators.

430
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:20.039
And did you take a look at it?

431
00:24:20.119 --> 00:24:20.480
I did?

432
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:22.960
Okay, are we looking at it there?

433
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.599
Yeah, it's just a nicer picture of it.

434
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:28.559
And here it's labeled skeletal inventory. But could you tell

435
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:30.440
us what we're looking at there? In some of these

436
00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:34.000
nicer photos that are maybe a bit better lit than

437
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:35.039
the photos on scene.

438
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:39.519
Sure, So this is actually that little piece of bone

439
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:43.359
that you guys saw on that other picture. So when

440
00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:45.960
I was looked, when I was asked to look at

441
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.440
the photo and look at the remains, the main question

442
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.480
was is this bone and if so, is this human?

443
00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:55.720
So the first thing that I can tell you is

444
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:56.839
that it is bone.

445
00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:01.440
Right, remember that categorization of spongeybone, bone and compact bone.

446
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:04.400
So you can actually see it in this image.

447
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.519
You can kind of see that sponge in between, and

448
00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:09.920
you can kind of see that compact bone in the

449
00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:14.400
top also and on the back. The second thing that

450
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.640
I can tell you is that this is potentially consistent

451
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.920
with cranial bone or bone from the skull. The reason

452
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:25.000
for that is because so the skull is very unique,

453
00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:27.279
and the skull.

454
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.000
Is composed of three layers of bone.

455
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:33.599
So we have that compact bone that cement looking like bone,

456
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.359
then we have spongy bone in the middle, and then

457
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.880
we have another layer which is compact bone.

458
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:40.200
So it's almost like a sandwich.

459
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:40.480
Right.

460
00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:47.160
So as bone, especially in this case, potentially underwent fire

461
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.920
damage or thermal damage, that first layer bone is going

462
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.680
to be destroyed and it's going to expose that second layer.

463
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.000
So that's what is telling me that is potentially associated

464
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:02.799
with the skull or the head. And then in this case,

465
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.559
I know you guys can't see it very well, but

466
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.920
there's actually a cranial suture. So as you grow, you

467
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:12.599
right now have close to two hundred and six bones,

468
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:15.920
but when you were little you probably had more. And

469
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.200
the reason for that is because all of those bones

470
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:20.759
are going to fuse, right, So the same happens with

471
00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:23.680
the skull. Those bones are going to fuse, and those

472
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:28.039
lines of fusion are what we call sutures or cranial sutures.

473
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.279
So those lines of fusion are very informative for us.

474
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:35.200
It can give us information about age, sometimes can give

475
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:39.319
us other information related to ancestral background. So in this case,

476
00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:42.200
I can see on one of the edges that it

477
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.240
is a suspected cranial suture.

478
00:26:46.359 --> 00:26:48.559
You're able to find other bones in the skull tal

479
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:50.920
inventory the fireplace, Yes, So.

480
00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:54.920
We were able to search throughout and we found other

481
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:57.440
pieces of bone scattered around.

482
00:26:58.160 --> 00:26:59.720
Do you know anything or can you tell us anything

483
00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:00.720
about these pieces?

484
00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:03.839
So to your luck?

485
00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:07.559
Right, Yeah, So you have pretty much kind of a

486
00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:11.400
group of pieces of bone. These are too small for

487
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.480
me to identified. But again we can go back and

488
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.000
say that they're bone, right, because we have this spongy

489
00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:21.039
material and we also have that flat material that is

490
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:25.559
consistent with compack bone on the other side that is

491
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.839
actually the root of a tooth. It's pretty much the

492
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:31.599
shape consistent with.

493
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:33.640
A root.

494
00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:37.680
Sure, as well as the fire itself and the built fire.

495
00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.279
You looked at the fireplace great I did showing the jerry.

496
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:43.359
What's been marked is three twenty three just an overview

497
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:46.799
of the grates and three thirty one, perhaps zoomed in

498
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:48.759
a bit closer. Was there anything that started to cause

499
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:50.480
you pause or suspicion as you looked at some of

500
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:51.839
these photos are on sceen.

501
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:52.680
Yes.

502
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:56.359
So I was able to look at the Great pretty

503
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:59.559
much institute, right. So they removed the grade from the

504
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.680
initial from the original location, and I was able to

505
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.680
look at it, and I noticed that there was a

506
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:12.119
human crown or a dental crown stuck to the Great.

507
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:13.599
And are we looking at that right now?

508
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:14.160
Yes?

509
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:16.039
And if you can crank your head a little bit screen,

510
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:17.640
am I pointing to it with the laser right now?

511
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:18.200
Yeah?

512
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:22.200
That's the one slightly top right of center. Yes, for

513
00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:24.720
the court record, you pulled that off at.

514
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:27.480
Some point, we did. We removed it, yep.

515
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:30.279
And that's exactly what you're kind of looking. So you're

516
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.279
looking again to that piece of bone that was consistent

517
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.720
to be human, that is consistent with the cranial bone.

518
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.440
And then the other one is the dental crown that

519
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:41.440
is potentially a.

520
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:42.640
Molar right on the back.

521
00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:46.160
So there's a lot of surface area there, but you

522
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:49.759
can see the grooves right that are very very unique

523
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:51.559
and those are very unique to humans.

524
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:54.279
And so these are the two areas of what you

525
00:28:54.359 --> 00:28:55.519
believe to be unique to humans.

526
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:57.119
Stuck to the great Yes.

527
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:08.440
Okay, And now finally let us descend the steps of

528
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:12.880
the Holderson Homes basement. As we enter an enclosed area

529
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:17.079
accessible only to investigators. After sawing through a piece of

530
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:22.880
wood in the foundation, this particular ash trap was completely enclosed,

531
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:27.960
meaning there was not an access point. Doctor Christina Soto

532
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:31.880
appears to be a somewhat petite woman, and as she

533
00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:35.599
describes it, she was actually able to insert herself through

534
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:38.799
the square holes they had cut in the foundation wall

535
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:47.640
to inspect and collect what had accumulated inside. Be right

536
00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:50.720
back after this quick ad break. All of our episodes

537
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:54.559
are available on Patreon ad free. If you want to

538
00:29:54.920 --> 00:29:59.000
help support the show, go to patreon dot com slash

539
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:04.119
Tapes from the Dark Side.

540
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.519
Let's talk about the ashtrap a little bit. There was

541
00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:12.079
a lot of work performed with the ash trap.

542
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:13.920
Yes, there was a lot of work done.

543
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:18.880
Okay, I'm showing with the jury what's been marked is

544
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:21.319
exhibit number three hundred and thirty four. They've seen this

545
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:24.319
before and they've heard from mister Boswell testified, who I'm

546
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:27.680
sure you know this was in the basement of a

547
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:28.400
holdish and home.

548
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:30.079
That is correct, okay.

549
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.680
And mister Boswell testified that he was unable to kind

550
00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:34.359
of fit himself in there. But were you able to

551
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:35.720
kind of fit yourself in there and take a look

552
00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:36.839
at the ashtrap for yourself?

553
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:38.480
Yes, I was able to get in there.

554
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:41.880
Okay, what is it? Can you describe the general condition

555
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:42.160
of it?

556
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:47.160
So just so you guys can get a little bit

557
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:48.119
of an idea.

558
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:51.119
So we have those three different squares.

559
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.200
So I was able to kind of fit in through

560
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:58.720
that first one and then also the last one. The

561
00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:00.559
reason for that is because I really wanted to see

562
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.799
if there was bone in there, right, So that's pretty

563
00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:05.799
much the pit. So whatever was on the top can

564
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:06.759
potentially be on the.

565
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:07.480
Bottom as well.

566
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:11.119
And I really want to see it without being undisturbed,

567
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:14.160
so I tried to snuck in and try to fit

568
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.000
in there, and you can see it's almost like a mountain,

569
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:20.319
like a little mountain, and then at the top of

570
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:25.079
it you can kind of see again that brittle bone

571
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:29.759
like material that had different colors, right, that white kind

572
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:32.640
of residue, that black residue.

573
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:34.759
So it is quite unique.

574
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.200
And so I'm showing now three thirty seven. Is that

575
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:37.920
the inside?

576
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:40.160
Yeah, that is the inside, so you can kind of

577
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:41.960
see the little mountain.

578
00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:44.519
And is that on the right side of that photograph?

579
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:45.079
Yes?

580
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:51.880
Okay, you're an anthropologist by trade. Is ash or an

581
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:54.680
ash trap kind of an ideal environment to perform an

582
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:58.880
archaeological dig for bone or for fossils or for something

583
00:31:58.920 --> 00:31:59.640
of that sort.

584
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:00.559
Is not.

585
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:04.160
It's very difficult if you want to think about it

586
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:08.880
in terms of just a regular archaeological dig. You're always

587
00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:14.480
you're always digging in dirt, So it's the consistency is there,

588
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:17.799
so you can actually move the dirt and you can

589
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.720
kind of go by layers it's.

590
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:22.519
Difficult, but it's definitely possible.

591
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.279
Here it was a little bit more tricky because a

592
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:31.200
of the confined environment and second the material itself, right,

593
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:35.839
this is very loose, so we have to be very careful.

594
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:37.200
When we were pretty much removing everything.

595
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.200
Do you believe it's possible that some material had sunk

596
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:44.680
through as you were removing some of the ash material?

597
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:51.319
I think so? Yeah, Okay, in general, we'll talk about

598
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:53.039
what your findings were in a second. But you found

599
00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:55.559
a number of items that you believe to be bone

600
00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:01.160
in the shashtrap? Yes, many, many items, Yeah, I would say,

601
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.359
so were the majority on top or were they in

602
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:05.960
the middle or in the bottom or something else? How

603
00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:09.000
would you describe where kind of in this pile you

604
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:11.200
were able to remove those items from.

605
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.640
So the majority of the elements were actually in the top.

606
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:18.119
So what we did is we actually separated and we

607
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:22.000
try to keep it very consistent here. So we only

608
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.519
had one person digging in this area, so we can

609
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:27.000
keep it again consistent, and then we try to do

610
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.839
it by layers, pretty much like an archaeological dig, right,

611
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:32.799
So you go layer by layer. Because I really wanted

612
00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:35.519
to get a sense of how much was at the top, right,

613
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:37.920
and then do we have anything at the bottom as well,

614
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:42.920
So we separated it by pretty much. Once everything was out,

615
00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:46.880
we sifted everything that was taken, and then once it

616
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:48.759
was sifted, it was put in a box, and that

617
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:51.960
box was given a number, right, one being at the top,

618
00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:55.039
and I think it was twelve or thirteen being at

619
00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:55.480
the bottom.

620
00:33:55.599 --> 00:33:55.799
Right.

621
00:33:56.119 --> 00:34:00.000
You have to remember this is super loose soil. So yeah,

622
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.640
at some point I do believe that maybe some of

623
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:06.599
those elements trickle down to another layer. But I think

624
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:10.159
we were quite successful at getting as much material as

625
00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:15.199
possible without really disturbing the evidence.

626
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:18.519
And you listed in fact in your report as you

627
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:21.480
went through there were twelve tougherware containers of material of

628
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:26.559
actual fragments taken out, and you listed per container how

629
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.280
much or which elements you found in which TopWare container. Correct.

630
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:30.400
Yes, I wanted it again.

631
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.119
I wanted to keep it consistent, and especially with this

632
00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.400
being so such a difficult environment, I wanted to make

633
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:40.840
sure that everything was labeled by container, and then also

634
00:34:41.599 --> 00:34:45.239
make sure that those containers were associated with the level

635
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:47.960
as best as we could. And then from there it

636
00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:51.119
goes into a table. So we had several tables laid

637
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:55.079
out outside, and we had multiple law.

638
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:57.440
Enforcement agents sifting throughout.

639
00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:59.840
Some of them had a lot of experience doing this before,

640
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:02.679
so I was kind of jumping back and forth from

641
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:06.679
table to table. Everything that was found that was suspected

642
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.519
to be human was put in these containers. And as

643
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:11.480
you can see, it kind of looks a little bit rough, right,

644
00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:14.960
because some of them do know what bone is, and

645
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.719
some of them didn't. Think, well, I'm not one hundred

646
00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:19.239
percent sure if this is bone, so I'm putting it in.

647
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:21.519
So they put everything in there, right. We did not

648
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:22.360
toss anything.

649
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:27.360
And then from there we actually had twelve boxes with

650
00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:29.320
significant material and.

651
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:31.559
You took that back to the medical examiner's office. I did,

652
00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:33.599
and there are more ideal conditions there for you to

653
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:34.599
actually examine the bone.

654
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:36.960
Yes, So what I do is I kind of do

655
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.280
a second sifting, and this one I actually do it

656
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:41.480
by hand pretty much. I sit in front of that

657
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:44.320
box and I go element by element and I try

658
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:47.199
to clean them a little bit with just like a toothbrush,

659
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:49.039
and I try to determine if this is in fact

660
00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:49.719
bone or not.

661
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:51.960
Sure, And we're just going to look at a couple

662
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.320
different photographs here are varying software. Some of them have

663
00:35:55.480 --> 00:35:57.639
little to know the items in there, some of them

664
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:00.599
have a lot that is correct. Well, just keep looking

665
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:03.559
at them again, just different ones that were removed that day.

666
00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:07.440
And here we're getting maybe to the end where there's

667
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:08.039
very little.

668
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:10.360
Yeah, so that's the end. And we also.

669
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:16.800
Research the fireplace, and we researched the fireplace create just.

670
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:18.239
To make sure that we didn't miss anything.

671
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:22.639
And then I strike, I start categorizing them. So in

672
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:25.440
this case you can see almost at the bottom you

673
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.960
have cranial fragments, right, So I try to pretty much

674
00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:32.079
establish Okay, this is my first cranial fragment that I

675
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:34.480
found in this box, so I usually label it as

676
00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:36.880
a so that way, if I have to go back,

677
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:40.360
I kind of remember pretty much what the inventory was,

678
00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:44.760
so I go by cranial fragments, dentals or dentian write

679
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:51.760
any teeth, vertebrae. We found a potential long bone. I

680
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:55.079
found some hands, and then also some small fragments that

681
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:57.840
I cannot identified. So everything that you see this as

682
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.880
small fragments, that's something that I know it's bone, but

683
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:03.960
it's too small for me to say something about it.

684
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:07.239
By their location these bone fragments that were found in

685
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:11.440
the ashtrip you've strongly suspected I believe that they've been burned.

686
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:16.440
Yes, So when it undergoes fire, the first thing that

687
00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:19.760
is going to burn is the organic material, right. So

688
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:22.360
that is why it is so difficult to get DNA

689
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:26.559
out of burnt bone, right, because that inside that organic material,

690
00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:30.239
that good stuff actually burns quite quickly. So then the

691
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:33.320
reason why you get still the shape of the bone

692
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:36.360
is because you have that minerals.

693
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:39.119
The minerals won't burn, So that.

694
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:40.920
Is the reason why you still have that shape of

695
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.840
that bone even though it undergoes fire.

696
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:44.440
Right.

697
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:48.840
So the color of the bone is extremely important to

698
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:51.679
me because it tells me the time, the duration.

699
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:52.199
Right.

700
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:56.079
So if you remember the other images of the other bones,

701
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:59.039
we're kind of a yellowish, kind of brownish color. So

702
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.599
that is unaltered bone, right, So that is bone that

703
00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.199
has not been through any type of damage.

704
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:06.400
Talk to me about the color of the bones you

705
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:07.719
were able to find at the Holderson home.

706
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:14.119
So here we have mostly white bone. The dentals is

707
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:16.960
a little bit of a black color. But the reason

708
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:20.840
for that is because the dentals were actually embedded in

709
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.280
at some point they were embedded in the mandible, right,

710
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:26.800
So usually the mandible is the first one that burns, right,

711
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:28.960
So as that burns, the.

712
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:29.960
Teeth are protected.

713
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:33.400
And then once they're exposed, they're usually exposed to the

714
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:36.800
fire and you usually get that kind of black to

715
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:40.360
grayish color, right, So I'm expecting that on the teeth. However,

716
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:42.480
on the bone, you can kind of see that as

717
00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:42.960
all white.

718
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:43.519
Right.

719
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:46.039
So we have the cranial fragments at the bottom and

720
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:48.880
those are quite white. And then you have the vertebrae

721
00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:51.400
which is just on top of the dentition, and those

722
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:51.960
were asked.

723
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:53.800
They're also quite white.

724
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.079
And you can kind of see we do see that

725
00:38:56.199 --> 00:38:58.960
proximal distal end of a long bone that is kind

726
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.320
of transitioning, right. See that it's a little bit black

727
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:03.679
and it kind of transitions into a white bone.

728
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.039
So that also tells me that it was exposed to

729
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:08.719
the fire for a long time.

730
00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:13.840
We're not going to look at every photograph, correct.

731
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:17.840
Yeah, there are too many, but that center image, so

732
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:23.000
that center image is actually it was a very informative fragment.

733
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.400
Do you remember those sutures right where the bones kind

734
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.360
of meet. So if you kind of look at take

735
00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:30.559
a peek at the top, you can kind of see

736
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:35.599
that little that little mark that is actually a cranial suture,

737
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:38.159
and it is a well defined cranial suture.

738
00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:39.519
In this bone.

739
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:42.480
If you flip it, you can kind of see again

740
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.559
that layer, right, remember that sandwich like where you have

741
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.840
that compac bone and then you have that spongy bone

742
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:49.599
in the middle, and then you have so you can

743
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:51.960
actually see the layers of that bone.

744
00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:54.599
Are those cranial sutures informative in any way as an

745
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:57.800
anthropologists to who this person was in terms of their

746
00:39:57.800 --> 00:39:59.480
gender or age or anything like that.

747
00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:05.559
Yeah, so again looking at age, the cranial sutures are

748
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:08.760
actually very informative to tell age, right because if you

749
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.960
think about it, as your bones are pretty much growing

750
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:17.119
and fusing, there is the documented information and documented.

751
00:40:18.519 --> 00:40:20.400
Data about how the.

752
00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:25.320
Sutures should look like when you are a kid, a

753
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:28.360
young adult, and then an adult. In this case, they're

754
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:31.320
completely sutured. So that tells me that this was an adult.

755
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:34.960
Move to the next slide. You found a number of

756
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.920
teeth ashtrap, correct, I did? All right, So we want

757
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:39.360
to look at some photographs. Just what are we looking

758
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:39.760
at there?

759
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:42.960
So pretty much you're looking at so all the ones

760
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:46.400
in the blue and the blue background, they are considered

761
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:54.239
to be canines or central incisors or lateral incisors. Some

762
00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:58.000
of them might be premolars kind of you after your canines.

763
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:01.559
But you can see, well the fine roots in here,

764
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:04.519
and then on the black one you can actually see

765
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:07.119
is a little bit bigger, right, a little bit wider,

766
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.480
which could potentially indicate that is a molar.

767
00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:11.119
Right, So the ones on the back.

768
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.000
Now, sometimes when we hear on the news that someone

769
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:15.880
like you is involved in a case, will hear that

770
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:18.920
they're looking at dental records to identify human remains. What

771
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:20.760
do people mean by that when they say they're looking

772
00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:23.000
at dental records? And what role does dental records have

773
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:25.639
and identifying teeth in human remains?

774
00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:29.039
Yeah, So in this case, when we're trying to identify

775
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.519
someone with dentals, what we do is we go back

776
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.480
to their medical records, right, so they're dental records, and

777
00:41:35.559 --> 00:41:39.519
we get X rays, We get pretty much their dental chart.

778
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:42.400
When you go to the dentists and you get an

779
00:41:42.519 --> 00:41:44.639
X ray, all of your teeth are in what we

780
00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:48.519
call inc two, so they are still embedded in your jaw, right.

781
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:53.559
That is one of the unique features that the odontologists

782
00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:58.559
and myself use for identification, right, because the shape of

783
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:03.280
that root is actually linked or associated with the mandible.

784
00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:03.599
Right.

785
00:42:03.639 --> 00:42:05.159
So the mandible is the kind of the one that

786
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:08.039
works with the tooth to create that shape.

787
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:08.480
Right.

788
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:11.840
So that's what we tend to use, one of the

789
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:12.960
one of the.

790
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:14.199
Many characteristics that we use.

791
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.679
When you have teeth that are just loose, that you

792
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:20.920
don't have a mandible, it gets very tough. It gets

793
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:24.480
very difficult to identify them because first of all.

794
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:26.639
You need to figure it out what tooth this is. Right.

795
00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:30.079
So in this case, I'm missing a lot of the crowns.

796
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:34.199
So I'm having a hard time saying, well, it looks

797
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:36.360
like a central incisor, but it also looks like a

798
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.840
lateral incisor. So that's where the challenges of identification come, right,

799
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:44.719
because we're missing the crown and we're also missing the

800
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:46.000
mandible where those go.

801
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:49.280
So the phrase identify someone by dental records means the

802
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:51.840
position of their teeth, not so much the actual teeth.

803
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:54.039
Yeah, that's one of the characteristics that we use.

804
00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:56.320
Got it, next slide we have some additional teeth.

805
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.519
Yeah, So as you can see these have a little

806
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:01.119
bit of a different in color, So that's why I

807
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:03.559
put a black background so that you guys can see

808
00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:04.480
it a little bit better.

809
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:08.960
You can see we have all the way to your

810
00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:10.360
left and all the way to your right.

811
00:43:11.239 --> 00:43:17.360
Those are potentially canines or premolars. But then the ones

812
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:19.760
in the center are a little bit bigger, right, So

813
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:21.480
those are the ones that go all the way in the.

814
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:22.519
Back, the molars.

815
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:25.199
Right when you're chewing, most of the food goes to

816
00:43:25.239 --> 00:43:27.239
the back, and those are the ones that are responsible

817
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:30.920
for that. So we were able to find an array

818
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:33.320
of different types of teeth.

819
00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:35.639
And just because this is the last slide dealing with teeth,

820
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:38.039
I'll ask the overall question, you were not able to

821
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:41.440
identify whose teeth these were because of the condition they

822
00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:44.679
were in and how they were removed, essentially, that is correct,

823
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:46.840
And did you consult with other experts in the field.

824
00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:52.000
We did, working through this case for the better part

825
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.360
of the last half year. I can't help but to

826
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.760
sometimes imagine Chandler's life with Bart and Christa growing up.

827
00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:03.199
We've heard now how they would take him to hockey

828
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:07.360
games every week. One detail among the various ways they

829
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:11.480
loved and cared for their son. Tonight, as I sit

830
00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:17.199
here recording this, a vivid scene dances across my mind,

831
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:22.199
part of an overactive imagination, and I have no idea

832
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:27.159
how accurate it is. In this fantasy, I imagine Christa

833
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:32.239
cheerily making Chandler's lunch for school when he was a boy.

834
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:36.320
Admittedly this is a projection of my own childhood, but

835
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:39.599
if Krista was like my mom, and she very much

836
00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:43.000
sounds like she fits the type, a handwritten note on

837
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:47.000
a napkin reminding Chandler of her love for him was

838
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:51.480
likely part of that lunch. And now Christa's body, along

839
00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:55.840
with that of her husband, reduced to literal ash, held

840
00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:59.639
neatly inside the confines of a tupperware container, at the

841
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:03.519
hand of none other than that same little boy. Her

842
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:06.840
only crime against Chandler was maybe being a little bit

843
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:11.280
too permissive at times, and that's a big Maybe every

844
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:16.559
kid needs some grace, some distance, slack on their metaphorical leash,

845
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:20.400
to learn to make mistakes and to face the consequences

846
00:45:20.440 --> 00:45:24.159
when they do. Through this process, we learn it's not

847
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:26.920
the end of the world when we screw up, even

848
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:29.679
when we screw up big. When we're apt to do,

849
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.519
and what Chandler certainly did. And the single most tragic

850
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:36.840
part of this case that I keep coming back to

851
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:40.679
even now after twelve chapters, is that if Chandler had

852
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:43.559
gone to his parents and simply confessed the truth of

853
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:47.199
his whole situation, all of his lies, all of the deception,

854
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:51.639
all of the theft. Remember, he was probably also stealing

855
00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:55.480
the tuition money for an entire year. Christa and Bart

856
00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:00.559
would have almost surely forgiven him. Would they have been mad, Yes,

857
00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:05.760
there have been consequences, almost certainly, but all the evidence

858
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.800
points to the fact that they would have loved Chandler

859
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:15.119
despite his mistakes. Instead, the dark reality we inhabit is

860
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:17.880
that there is no forgiveness, and there will be no

861
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:22.800
forgiveness for Chandler Alderson, at least for the remainder of

862
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:26.000
his time that he will spend on Earth. His soul

863
00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:33.679
lives in darkness, a darkness that makes the ash trap

864
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:38.079
in the pacement of his home appear like a well lit,

865
00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:45.320
fluorescent bathroom. The decisions that Chandler made July first, twenty

866
00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:49.559
twenty one made it so that the only two people

867
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:53.480
that could have forgiven him were removed from this realm.

868
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:57.840
And so while I still and always will hold out

869
00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:02.119
hope for Chandler's soul after life, if there is such

870
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:06.599
a thing, at least in this life, for the remainder

871
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:10.519
of his trip on this tiny speck of dust, there

872
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:22.079
will be no redemption. In addition to teeth and cranial bone,

873
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.519
doctor Soto also found cervical vertebrae distal flangies, which are

874
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:31.320
the bones in your fingertips, in what she classified as

875
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:35.360
long bones. These are bones that she thinks were some

876
00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:39.159
part of the femur and possibly also a tibia, but

877
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:43.480
that she couldn't classify precisely. When the day was done,

878
00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:47.239
doctor Soto and her team were able to identify one

879
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:51.400
hundred and six fragments of bone inside the Halderson fireplace

880
00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:52.559
and the ashtrap.

881
00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:56.199
And I know you've been talking for a while, but

882
00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:57.960
this is my I guess last slide we're going to

883
00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:00.599
go through. You put some of your conclude about what

884
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:04.039
you found in this slide. Tell me about this and

885
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:08.280
those numbers that you came to include on the slide.

886
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:11.800
Sure, So I just wanted to kind of give you

887
00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:15.480
an overall sense of what we found, right, So, we

888
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:19.000
found a total of one hundred and six fragments of

889
00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:23.119
bone that were able to be identified. From those one

890
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:26.440
hundred and six, fifty three of them were considered to

891
00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:28.760
be on the cranium. When I'm saying cramium, I'm talking

892
00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:32.400
about skull and also mandible. And then we were able

893
00:48:32.440 --> 00:48:35.960
to identify eighteen of them as hands, part of the hands,

894
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:40.400
twenty four of them as dental fragments, and eight of

895
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:43.760
them as vertebrae, and three of them as long bones.

896
00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:46.480
In addition to that, I had one hundred and twenty

897
00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:49.159
four fragments that I know their bone, but I was

898
00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:52.559
unable to identify them. So we had a grand total

899
00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:56.079
of two hundred and thirty bones fragmented bones that were

900
00:48:56.119 --> 00:49:01.159
found again inside the fireplace on the Great and also

901
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:07.559
in the ash disposal area.

902
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:10.400
Nothing further cross examination.

903
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:11.360
Thank you.

904
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.119
Again. Because it's short and another rare moment of cross

905
00:49:17.159 --> 00:49:21.440
examination by the defense, I'll include this clip.

906
00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:25.280
Thank you. It's good morning or good afternoon.

907
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:29.280
Now, I think starting sort of where we left off

908
00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:36.360
with those bone fragments found at the home. I think

909
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:40.920
I heard you say that you could identify whether they

910
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:42.199
were human or not.

911
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:44.440
Let's start there. That is correct.

912
00:49:45.079 --> 00:49:48.960
So some of the things you found, for whatever reason,

913
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:52.079
you could not identify as human. Some you could identify

914
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:56.199
as human, That is correct. Now, some of them you

915
00:49:56.320 --> 00:50:00.000
also were able to determine came from an adult human.

916
00:50:00.199 --> 00:50:03.039
Is that right? Some of the fragments did have features

917
00:50:03.079 --> 00:50:03.679
of an adult.

918
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:09.840
Now, none of the fragments that you found could tell

919
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:13.400
you whether it was a male or a female adult human.

920
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:17.360
Correct, that is correct. And despite the.

921
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:21.119
Number of bone fragments you found, you weren't able to

922
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:27.159
determine if they came from one human or six different humans. Correct,

923
00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:39.599
that is correct. Now, turning back to your analysis. From

924
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:43.239
the beginning of your testimony, you were given a couple

925
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.480
of tools to compare.

926
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:46.760
With the evidence that you found.

927
00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:47.320
Is that right?

928
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:50.880
That is correct. So the total number of tools you

929
00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:54.360
were given was two. Is that right? Yes, and you

930
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:55.159
were able.

931
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:58.519
To say that what you found was consistent with those tools,

932
00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:03.159
but you couldn't say that those were the actual tools that.

933
00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:04.599
Cause those marks. Correct.

934
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:08.599
That is correct. That's all I have. Thank you, any

935
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:12.119
read director, and may this witness be excused?

936
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:13.920
Yes, thank you so much.

937
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:14.320
Thank you.

938
00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:18.480
At this point in the case, the evidence against Chandler

939
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:24.599
is overwhelming. Any reasonable person i believe would understand that

940
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:29.800
Chandler Alderson is guilty, and guilty far, far beyond any

941
00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:33.800
reasonable doubt. But I still have so much to tell

942
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:37.119
you what has come to be known as quote, the

943
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:42.280
snapchat clue, the discovery of Christa's remains, and last but

944
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:47.480
not least, the Jurney's decision and Chandler's sentence. The season

945
00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:50.960
might be winding down, but to me, it also kind

946
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:54.920
of feels like it's just heating up, which is admittedly

947
00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:58.360
kind of bizarre, seeing as we usually complete a story

948
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:01.639
in five to ten episodes. But I guess you could

949
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:05.280
say this one is going the distance. I don't want

950
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:08.519
to spoil anything, but I should also tell you that

951
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:11.480
I completed a three hour long interview with a former

952
00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:15.559
Dane County inmate who shared a bunk with Chandler Alderson

953
00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:19.880
himself during his trial. That interview I thought would be

954
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:23.880
the highlight of my coverage on this case, not to jinxid,

955
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:27.800
but over the past twenty four hours, I've been contacted

956
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:31.719
by someone with knowledge of this case that they haven't

957
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:35.039
shared with a single person, and they want to do

958
00:52:35.079 --> 00:52:40.079
an interview with yours truly, all that and much more

959
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:58.159
coming up on Tapes from the Dark Side. At the

960
00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:01.280
end of this episode, I mentioned how we're taking longer

961
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:04.159
than usual to tell this case, and part of the

962
00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:06.559
reason we can do that is because we are a

963
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:12.960
fully independent show, supported almost entirely by listener contributions. I

964
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:14.960
have no doubt that if I was working for a

965
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:18.039
producer at this point, they would have told me to

966
00:53:18.119 --> 00:53:22.159
finish the season probably about three months ago, or start

967
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.320
looking for a new producer. Thank god that is not

968
00:53:25.480 --> 00:53:28.920
our situation, because I think this level of coverage that

969
00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:33.679
we're providing is something that true crime enthusiast crave, and

970
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:36.440
the fact that you're listening to this right now proves that.

971
00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.920
I must say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with cracking

972
00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:44.280
open Wikipedia along with a bottle of wine and recording

973
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:47.559
a new true crime podcast. But I think what we

974
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:49.880
have here at Tapes from the Dark Side is something

975
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.800
a little different. We offer deep dives, perhaps the deepest

976
00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:58.199
dive on that particular true crime case, and I also

977
00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:00.599
think we do it, or at least we to do

978
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:04.760
that with the least amount of fluff possible. When I

979
00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:07.320
set out to make this podcast, I got the name

980
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:10.039
Tapes from the Dark Side. As you might guess, from

981
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:15.039
the classic Anthology horror TV show, and the podcast was

982
00:54:15.159 --> 00:54:19.519
originally intended to follow a similar format, a single case

983
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:23.800
per episode. Yet with season one in the Red Wine case,

984
00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:27.960
I discovered almost immediately that I guess my brain works

985
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:31.920
a little differently. I seem to obsess over details that

986
00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:35.559
get overlooked in other people's coverage, but it's my belief

987
00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:39.119
that those details are exactly what makes the genre compelling

988
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:42.280
in the first place. Without the details, I wouldn't be

989
00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:46.519
doing this. I wouldn't be here, literally, on at three

990
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:49.800
am on a Sunday morning, sitting alone in the dark,

991
00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:52.760
talking to you. And the fact that you're wherever you

992
00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:56.239
are right now with your earphones in or with this

993
00:54:56.280 --> 00:55:00.320
podcast playing over the stereo, means that you are bit

994
00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:03.480
like me. You have to be if you're here. And

995
00:55:03.519 --> 00:55:05.679
so now I'm going to do that thing I do

996
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:10.519
each episode, which is humbly ask you to consider donating

997
00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:15.280
a few of your hard earned dollars to me. In exchange,

998
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:18.639
I will promise you to make this show. I can't

999
00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:21.760
promise a weekly episode, I can't even promise that I

1000
00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:25.719
will be entertaining, but I promise I will continue to

1001
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:31.360
try my damnedest to create something interesting, something dark, something

1002
00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:36.320
regarding prime, and hopefully something true. If you want to

1003
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:39.840
contribute to this cause, you can do so at patreon

1004
00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:47.119
dot com slash Tapes from the Dark Side. We also

1005
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:51.440
have ad free episodes on there and a bonus monthly

1006
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:56.079
series called Night Terrors, where I am trying to tell

1007
00:55:56.280 --> 00:56:00.079
one story in one episode. You know, I struggle to

1008
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:04.000
do that, but so far we have. We've done ten

1009
00:56:04.039 --> 00:56:08.000
of those and there is a new one coming this month. Again,

1010
00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:10.280
if you want to donate and become part of the

1011
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:15.639
band that is Patreon dot com slash Tapes from the

1012
00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:22.159
Dark Side, we have a whole bunch of new dark

1013
00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:25.519
Siders this month, and I think partly to blame for

1014
00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:29.360
this is Justin Drown of Obscura. He humored me by

1015
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:32.679
joining me for a conversation about one of the darkest

1016
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:35.719
figures in true crime, a man I had never heard

1017
00:56:35.800 --> 00:56:39.000
of until he mentioned his name. That man's name is

1018
00:56:39.039 --> 00:56:43.199
Peter sodos In. That conversation is on my Patreon. It's

1019
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:45.800
also on Justin's Patreon, and I think he put it

1020
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:49.119
on his public feed as well. Thank you again so

1021
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:51.920
much to Justin for taking the time to talk to me.

1022
00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:56.039
Letting me pick his brain. I've told him this before,

1023
00:56:56.119 --> 00:56:58.960
and I truly think this. I come out of each

1024
00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:03.440
conversation with just not only a more well rounded creator,

1025
00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:07.280
but I also think just a better person. I can't

1026
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:09.559
say exactly why, but he just seems to have that

1027
00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:13.000
effect on me. So thank you to all of our

1028
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:19.239
new supporters this month. Our newest Darksiders are Grant Field, Lollie,

1029
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:29.920
Denise Legere, Stephanie Livingston, Kimberly Picard, Jeremiah Amber, Luciana, Amy Fish,

1030
00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:37.920
Timothy Wykas, Michelle c Daniel McPherson, Tina Strikowski, Ali Rose,

1031
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:46.400
Maggot Knight, Kelsey Pryor, Sidney Raynan, Alex MacGuire, Jennifer Hilligas,

1032
00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:54.800
Far From Mediocre, Ash Satish Kamar, Jackie Flanagan, Paullyanna Carvallo,

1033
00:57:55.480 --> 00:58:03.880
Sarah A, Crystal Lelik, Hayley Hodges, Kelsey Olivieri, Jeff Lockwood,

1034
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:11.800
Kate Gilbert, Danica Curry, Jenna Batya, Aaron Young, Travis Davis,

1035
00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:20.320
Lance Zeppelin, Gabby Jay, Kirsten Bagley, Umi Finnair, Monica Mendez,

1036
00:58:21.159 --> 00:58:28.840
Kerri Bach Hanson, Jason Envelope, Amanda Stone Rock, Carolyn Newsome, Stinker,

1037
00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:37.480
Jody c Okay, Feedback, Andy Dennison, Trent Heisler, Rainy Mist,

1038
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:46.519
Denise Williams, Elsa Calzada, Matthew Brockmeyer, Michelle Folkerson, Claire m

1039
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:50.719
and Our new one year members who are saving a

1040
00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:56.320
couple months on their membership are Christy Fraser, Terry Burke, Woollen,

1041
00:58:56.960 --> 00:59:03.199
Aaron RedWine and Eric. Thank you to our newest producers

1042
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:09.719
who truly keep the show running out of their generosity, kindness,

1043
00:59:10.840 --> 00:59:18.840
Veronica Pencil, Junkie, Ducky Crawford and Carrie link Us. Thank

1044
00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:23.599
you so much to all of our producers, Aaron Kristin, Rice,

1045
00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:31.960
Jesse Bateman, Mariah, Monique Wilkinson, Teddy Redman, Jason Irvin, Jessica Cooper,

1046
00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:39.239
Fiona Gibson, Sun Dean, Joyce, Loveless, I'll say, Katzalon, Malary Bitterman,

1047
00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:47.000
Santana Savine, Jonathan Cox, Gino Hoy Bunco, Tyler Ernster, Sherry Sly,

1048
00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:54.559
Shelley Jones, Fran Alexis, Kathleen and Greg b As always,

1049
00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:58.039
if I mispronounce your name, please let me know you

1050
00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:01.159
can get in touch with me The dark Side Pod

1051
01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:06.760
on Instagram. I also post true crime stuff sometimes pictures

1052
01:00:06.800 --> 01:00:09.559
related to the cases. So look me up if you're

1053
01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.400
on Instagram and you want to follow me again, it's

1054
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:16.360
at the dark Side Pod and also you can reach

1055
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:20.559
me by email tapes from the dark Side Pod at

1056
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:25.519
gmail dot com. Thank you so much to twenty six

1057
01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:28.599
hundred who allowed us to adapt one of his songs

1058
01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:33.719
for our main theme into Augusta Trevororum, who created original

1059
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:37.760
music for the show. Their links are in the show notes.

1060
01:00:39.760 --> 01:01:02.440
And until next time, try to enjoy the daylights. Yeah

1061
01:01:02.440 --> 01:01:06.320
google bats in that sturd mastogipros.

1062
01:01:06.400 --> 01:01:14.480
He slips as.

1063
01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:15.159
Long as a paki.

1064
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:43.199
Yet these are wounds, not scars.

1065
01:01:44.119 --> 01:01:46.159
It will only be a scar when it stops bleeding,

1066
01:01:46.239 --> 01:01:50.599
stops hurting. You can forget about scars, but you cannot

1067
01:01:50.599 --> 01:01:51.519
forget about wounds,