S11, Chapter 12: The Ash Trap

0:00 What effect does fire have on the human body. It can change it dramatically heat. When heat is applied to a body, heat will generally cause the skin to tighten and shrink, Wrinkles around the corners of the eyes, in the corner of the mouth began to smooth out somewhat. Those changes eventually will get down to the destruction of the skin, the fat, the muscle tissue, and can ultimately, if the fire is allowed to continue to burn, down to the destruction of the bone tissue as well. Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion is advised.

0:50 July first had been a long, long night for Chandler, perhaps the longest night of his life, and the day ahead wouldn't necessarily be any easier. He had already made plans to hang out with Kat, his girlfriend, He had mounting pressure from his friends, family, and Krista and Bart's coworkers to explain where they had gone, and most importantly, he had two disembodied torsos to deal with. Chandler would also be facing these challenges on no sleep, having just experienced, though admittedly self inflicted, one of the most traumatic things a person could possibly ever experience murdering, chopping up, and then burning the decapitated heads of your own parents. The toll that such a thing would take on the psyche cannot be overstated. The so called family room that housed the wood burning fireplace in the Alderson home was covered in blood, and the inside of that fireplace was filled with ash. One thing we didn't mention in the previous episode is that it was also almost surely covered in Chandler's sweat. One thing we touched on at the very end of chapter nine, which is now a couple of chapters back, is that the Holderson house had no central air conditioning. They did have one unit in the kitchen.

2:16 I'm not sure if it was a window unit or a mini split, but Catherine actually talked about this in her interview with police. Yeah, and they don't really have like central air. They have a one air conditioner in the kitchen. So their house is pretty hot. They got some like new fans that go into their windows. Those run a lot, Yeah, commons in the house on Yeah, it's very common because Ms Holderson she would just open windows. She didn't really want the one going, especially if it was going to be cool. In the night, she preferred just opening all the windows and turning the fans on.

2:59 Right now, the outside temperature that night in Madison, Wisconsin briefly reached a low of fifty four degrees fahrenheit twelve degrees celsius for our international listeners, so not exactly scorching. But when you're shut inside with only the help of fans to try to cool down a raging fire, it gets hot quick. In fact, we think that the fans were partly to blame for adding so much oxygen to the fire that it was able to burn so much of Chandler's parents' bodies, and also for the flare up that led to Chandler throwing the water on the fire that led to the pane of glass instantly shattering, which we know now led to his foot being cut and him bleeding all over the place. As we covered in the previous episode, around four forty five am on July second, the sun began to rise, and buy five am, the picture on the security footage was too bright to tell if there was a fire burning anymore in the Halderson family room. Were able to pick up the timeline on that same morning. Just a few hours later, at seven oh seven am when Chandler enters a store called Fleet Farm in Madison, Wisconsin. Fleet Farm was only about an eight minute drive from the Halderson house, less than four

4:32 miles depending on the route you took. And it's a kind of hardware store that's common throughout the Midwest, basically a Low's or a home depot. Chandler was there for a specific purpose. He was there to buy a polyester tarp. This tarp just so happened to fit the exact description of the one that turned up on Cress's farm wrapped around pieces of Bart Holderson's dismembered body. And how are you employed, sir, that was previously employed with Fleet Farm? In what role Lost Prevention Team lead? Did you sometimes have the opportunity to work with the police and as they were investigating things?

5:14 Yes, very frequently, And at some. Point where you asked to provide police some surveillance footage from inside the Fleet Farm and maybe even a little bit outside, but mostly inside. On July second, in kind of early in the morning, around seven to twenty or so, Yes, it was We're going to play clip five to one, what are we looking at? And clip five to one? This is our last isle in the hardware department. It's right next to the farm department where we keep tarps and some outdoor gear. Okay, we'll play clip fifty six. What are we looking at there? This is again up at the front entrance, and that would be lane one. Is the closest checkout laying there?

6:00 And do you recognize that item that the person in that video is purchasing? Yes? I do? And what is that? That's a black and silver tarp. In the security footage that has played for the court, you can see Chandler, or at least is Doppelganger, standing at the checkout line in Fleet Farm, wearing a baseball cap, his eyes focused on the card reader as he enters a card into the electronic chip reader and completes his purchase. The fact that Chandler uses a credit card instead of cash, and makes no attempt to find a store that doesn't have cameras, and also makes no attempt to disguise his appearance on the surface, seems like yet another careless mistake on the laundry list of Chandler's incompetence. Yet I started to think to myself, what would I do if I didn't have cash on hand, and I wanted to avoid using a credit card. Well, I guess first I'd check around the house and see if I could find some change.

7:01 And if I couldn't, well, I guess I go to the ATM. Except oh wait, that's right, there's cameras at the AATM. And not only that, you have to use your bank card. I'm not going to keep going down this rabbit hole, but I wanted to quickly make the point that in this digital age, it's a challenge to simply obtain paper money without leaving a record, let alone murdering two people. Chandler made many, many silly mistakes. But let's say this was the eighties or even the nineties or two thousands, before doorbell cameras were everywhere, and before cash was an afterthought. I think that the probability of Chandler possibly getting away with this crime in that era is at least a potentiality. Now, I'm not saying that it would have been likely, but the odds would have certainly gone up. Not to belabor what is essentially a trivial part of this case, but I want to play for you the defense's cross examination of this witness, not for any particular reason other than because it was one of only a handful of times that the defense chose to cross examine any of the witnesses. This clip is less than a minute long. In fact, it's only a few seconds long, and the kind of questions that Chandler's defense counsel asks here are I think an accurate representation

8:32 of the kinds of questions that are asked during the few other cross examinations that take place. Thank you, so good luck in yours for your new role at the impost examination. Thank you now, sir. As part of your investigation into this you were asked to see if that card had been used for any previous transactions. Correct. Correct, and you were only able to locate one previous transaction. Correct, that's correct, and that was. From back in September of twenty twenty correct. Correct, that's all. Thank you, any redirect, and just to note for the record, the video clips were played in their entirety.

9:17 Shortly after this purchase, Chandler returned to his home, and while he had successfully managed to dispose of a decent percentage of his parents' bodies, curiously, or perhaps not so curiously, now that we know, Chandler mo He made almost no further attempt to cover up what he had done. In the family room. He left a measuring tape there, which it's not too hard to figure out why that was there, even left a piece of bone sitting right on top of a piece of wood. In the fireplace. As you heard in the last episode, he gave a half hearted attempt to clean one of the glass panes, but even now was done with very little effort, And Chandler made no attempt to clean what would be perhaps the most important location where the majority of the evidence was collected, and that was the ash trap. An ash trap, as it's also known an ash catcher or an ash dump, is pretty much exactly what it sounds like, a little cavity underneath your house, sometimes built into the foundation, that holds the ash from a fireplace. The ash will fall down through some kind of opening in the floor of that fireplace, usually a little cast iron flap that you

10:49 can open and close. When investigators went into the basement of the Halderson house to check the ash trap, they made a number of horrific findings. William Boswell, I'm a special agent with the State of Wisconsin Department of Justice. Any particular area of expertise I'm assigned to the Arson Bureau. What effect does fire have on the human body? It can change it dramatically heat. When heat is applied to a body, heat will generally cause the skin to tighten and shrink, Wrinkles around the corners of the eyes, in the corner of the mouth began to smooth out somewhat with just.

11:32 The application of heat. But as the body continues to heat within a compartment or a bedroom, or wherever it might be, those changes eventually will get down to the destruction of the skin, the fat, the muscle tissue, and can ultimately, if the fire is allowed to continue to burn, down to the destruction of the bone tissue as well. And as part of that experience, if you unfortunately had to see the human body in various states of being burned on different occasions, Yes, sir, sometimes partially and sometimes more completely. That's correct. Talk to us generally about fire. What temperature does fire generally burn at? What any kind of smuff most any fire that you experience generally does not burn beyond about the.

12:17 Temperature of around eighteen hundred degrees Is that sufficient to incinerate completely the human body into ash. It generally would not tell me about that. Generally you end up needing some additional if I can use word assistance to result in the destruction of human tissue, even devices that are designed in crematoriums to completely destroy a body often will leave various small fragments of bone, not very often tissue, but small fragments of bone that are left over after that cremation event. So short of adding additional oxygen or maybe changing the fuel oxygen ratio and how the fire burns, it's very, very difficult to get a complete consumption of human body just from the fire.

13:08 When you say insert oxygen, what a small household fan, I suppose there's one sitting right there. Something of that size be enough to do what you just mentioned in terms of inserting oxygen. If that were applied to perhaps just a residential fire, it. Would certainly help. I mean, if by example, you know, if you're lighting a small campfire or something of that nature, or lighting a fire at your own fireplace, you may often blow on that or wave or you use a set of bellows or maybe wave your hand to add and move additional air or oxygen across the surface of that fire. To increase the effectiveness of that fire. Sure in crime scenes you've responded to and in your training and experience, where the human body has been burned, are are there usually some remains left that you're able to identify or find. Generally yes, And in perhaps the more extreme of those, it's what are those remains? What's usually left?

14:02 You'll find very small pieces of bone fragment, the more thick or dense pieces of the human skeleton, perhaps kneecaps, the ball joints of hips and shoulders, where the bone is more densely compacted because of just its development. Teeth will oftentimes remain thicker portions maybe around the orbits of the eye, maybe portions of the base of the skull. In the performance of my normal duties, if we are out conducting a fire death investigation and we're looking to recover human remains inside a structure that may be buried beneath debris, that may be in collapse, whatever it might be, we rely very much on our senses sometimes to get us there. Sometimes it's a sense of sight, sometimes it is feel. You can sometimes walk over top of human remains that are beneath the ash and not know it until you feel a difference in what you're standing on, and sometimes it is smell. And I equate that smell very often because I love to barbecue. It smells like barbecued pork, oftentimes for the grease that you would get from barbecuing a pork shoulder.

15:17 And this is the smell. That I associated with what I was gathering from inside that fireplace when I was down in front of it and working near it. We'll go to the next line. At some point you opened up the fireplace, correct, that's correct. What types of observations did you personally make based on your training experience once you were able to open up the fireplace and look inside. There are a few areas of discoloration on both the left, rear and right hand sides of the stonework. Inside the fireplace, there is a discoloration or a change in coloration, if you will, on the fireplace great from left to right. And as we got in a little bit further and get to examine things a little more closely, there is almost like a greasy residue on the pool chain on the right hand side, which controls the fireplace damper at the top of the chimney at the bottom of the fireplace or the fireplace floor, and what you would find in most solid fuel burning fireplaces or furnaces, you would find a trapdoor, if you will, or an ash dump door.

16:26 It's a flat metal. Door that rotates on a central pin left or right. And in a fireplace that burns wood, to get rid of the ash, you would as to keep your fireplace clean. You would open that up, sweep the ash down in and it would go into some type of container. Or area where the ash would be secured until you cleaned it out. Is this a common feature in homes? Yes, in wood burning fireplaces, yes, okay. And the area in which this goes into is that generally a fire resistant area. Generally generally it could go into an ash bucket. You know, I can tell you from personal experience growing up. It went to another unused fireplace in the basement of my parents' home and it just went to the floor in the basement and there was nothing there to catch it.

17:19 Let us now rejoin our friend, doctor Christina Figueroa Soto, who we heard from in chapter ten a quick refresher. She works for the Dane County Medical Examiner's Office as their forensic anthropologist and chief of investigations. I'm going to play for you this portion of doctor SODA's testimony in chronological order, the same order that it was given in court. She starts off with not the ash traps specifically, but rather another key piece of evidence, in this case, a household tool that we've all used in our daily lives, perhaps some more than others, depending on your personal level of hygiene, vacuum cleaner. In this case, the vacuum cleaner's dust been happens to be filled with more than what is just your common household dust.

18:11 You at some point examined the vacuum cleaner that was found in the Halderson home. That is correct, okay, And is that in fact the vacuum cleaner. That is the vacuum cleaner? What happened? How did you examine it? And tell us what we're looking at here? So we pretty much dissected the vacuum. So we almost did an autopsy on the vacuum. So we remove everything from it so that we can get to the inside. So we documented every single step of the way, and what you're looking at is pretty much what we were able to recover from the inside of the vacuum, right. So there's a lot of dust. However, there were other elements there that we were able to recover. Sure, and I'm gonna ask you about a couple of those.

18:54 Let's just start maybe on the far right side of that tray. There's some paper looking material. What is that? You mean, the white paper that is shredded. Yeah, let's start there. Yeah, we're able to identify that as anything other than just paper. It was just shred of paper. Yeah, Okay. Above that, there's a small pile of looks to be debris. We're able to identify that at all. Seems we were not really able to id it. Seems like it was more like seeds and kind of random things that you find outside. And if we keep moving counterclockwise, I suppose around there's a pile of clear material there almost looks like rock salt.

19:36 What is that? That was actually glass? And during this case, while you were in the holder snome, did you have an opportunity to actually look through the fireplace yourself? I did? And is that glass consistent with glass you found in the fireplace? There was broken glass in the fireplace, Okay. Slightly to the left of that. Continuing going counterclockwise, there appears to be a pile of debris. What is that? We were not one hundred percent sure. Seems like it's almost like burn, something kind of woodish. Who are not really able to identify that very well? Sure it was quite dark. And we'll save the bottom left corner for a second. But in the very center beers to be a pile of dirt. Is that what it is? Yeah, I was just dirged from normal vacuum. And then the bottom there's some dog here, pretty much, I think, So, yeah, okay, there's some white rocks, and so the judge is clear on the record. I'm pointing to the bottom left corner of this trade. What are those?

20:28 That is bone? How are you able to tell it's bone? Again by the size and the shape and the morphology? Right, So bone is very unique. So when you're looking at bone, you're looking at two types of bone. One remember that spongy look like bone that we had in the cervical vertebrae. So that's one type of bone, and that's usually on the inside. Right, you want to think about it as sponge that has little holes, and those little holes are the ones that kind of give you the nutrients right, that's where the blood vessels. That's kind of the reasoning for that. The outside of the bone is called compact bone.

21:13 I always think about it as concrete. It looks like cement, right, So it's usually the outside of it that the reason because like the reason why it is like that is because it gives you the shape. Right, So the inside is very hollow so that you can get the nutrients and the outside is the one that gives you the shape. So you do want that to be really strong and really hard. So whenever you have bone pieces, I'm always. Looking for that. I'm looking for that spongy bone and that really concrete or compact bone. And there were several features on those little fragments that can tell me that that was bone. And relatively to other fragments you may have found in this investigation in the holder's home where those somewhat. Small there are very small and very fragile.

21:55 So we talked about it being bone. And just so no one you cannot positively say that's human beane, correct. No, I can't. What's the difference between what you're able to identify as bone and what you can positively identify as human bone? What are you looking for. So I'm looking for again features, right, so the morphological features, the size and the shape. Aside from that, I'm also looking so bone is the one that is response. So the bone actually attaches to the muscle. Right, So those areas actually have some buff bumps and grooves. That are very unique to the bone. Right. So, as an anthropologist and as an osteologist, right, somebody that knows the bones really well, I know where all those features are, right, So I know where each muscle attaches.

22:37 I know the features of each bone as well. Right, So facets like those flat areas where it attaches to another bone. So me knowing the features and the characteristics of each human bone, I can actually look at another fragment and say, yes, this is human, this is not human. Right, we do get training on non human remains, right, So, dear dogs, anything else that we know potentially could be of an analysis in the future. Sure, are you able to say whether or not or what type of bone that is, whether it's an animal bone or whether it is a human bone.

23:18 No, I can't. All you can say it's bone. I can say that it is bone. I cannot say that it's human. Before we head to the Holderson basement. Let's hear about something that we have heard referenced a handful of times up until this point, and that is a couple more pieces of evidence that Chandler left in the fireplace. Perhaps considering the location of these items, they just might be the most egregious example of Chandler's carelessness. Sitting right atop the woodpile, this is what he left for anyone who happened to walk past the fireplace to see. There's a spot on the top of the fireplace kind of there in the center that was of interest to people.

23:59 Yes, that is the and what I was called in the first place. And just to go back, we're talking about the spot on the very center of that photograph. Yeah, that white spot. Yes, were you able to take that little piece off at some point? So when I arrived to the residents, that piece was actually already removed by one of the investigators. And did you take a look at it? I did? Okay, are we looking at it there? Yeah, it's just a nicer picture of it. And here it's labeled skeletal inventory. But could you tell us what we're looking at there? In some of these nicer photos that are maybe a bit better lit than the photos on scene. Sure, So this is actually that little piece of bone that you guys saw on that other picture. So when I was looked, when I was asked to look at the photo and look at the remains, the main question was is this bone and if so, is this human?

24:53 So the first thing that I can tell you is that it is bone. Right, remember that categorization of spongeybone, bone and compact bone. So you can actually see it in this image. You can kind of see that sponge in between, and you can kind of see that compact bone in the top also and on the back. The second thing that I can tell you is that this is potentially consistent with cranial bone or bone from the skull. The reason for that is because so the skull is very unique, and the skull. Is composed of three layers of bone. So we have that compact bone that cement looking like bone, then we have spongy bone in the middle, and then we have another layer which is compact bone.

25:38 So it's almost like a sandwich. Right. So as bone, especially in this case, potentially underwent fire damage or thermal damage, that first layer bone is going to be destroyed and it's going to expose that second layer. So that's what is telling me that is potentially associated with the skull or the head. And then in this case, I know you guys can't see it very well, but there's actually a cranial suture. So as you grow, you right now have close to two hundred and six bones, but when you were little you probably had more. And the reason for that is because all of those bones are going to fuse, right, So the same happens with the skull. Those bones are going to fuse, and those lines of fusion are what we call sutures or cranial sutures.

26:28 So those lines of fusion are very informative for us. It can give us information about age, sometimes can give us other information related to ancestral background. So in this case, I can see on one of the edges that it is a suspected cranial suture. You're able to find other bones in the skull tal inventory the fireplace, Yes, So. We were able to search throughout and we found other pieces of bone scattered around. Do you know anything or can you tell us anything about these pieces? So to your luck? Right, Yeah, So you have pretty much kind of a group of pieces of bone. These are too small for me to identified. But again we can go back and say that they're bone, right, because we have this spongy material and we also have that flat material that is consistent with compack bone on the other side that is actually the root of a tooth. It's pretty much the shape consistent with.

27:33 A root. Sure, as well as the fire itself and the built fire. You looked at the fireplace great I did showing the jerry. What's been marked is three twenty three just an overview of the grates and three thirty one, perhaps zoomed in a bit closer. Was there anything that started to cause you pause or suspicion as you looked at some of these photos are on sceen. Yes. So I was able to look at the Great pretty much institute, right. So they removed the grade from the initial from the original location, and I was able to look at it, and I noticed that there was a human crown or a dental crown stuck to the Great. And are we looking at that right now?

28:13 Yes? And if you can crank your head a little bit screen, am I pointing to it with the laser right now? Yeah? That's the one slightly top right of center. Yes, for the court record, you pulled that off at. Some point, we did. We removed it, yep. And that's exactly what you're kind of looking. So you're looking again to that piece of bone that was consistent to be human, that is consistent with the cranial bone. And then the other one is the dental crown that is potentially a. Molar right on the back. So there's a lot of surface area there, but you can see the grooves right that are very very unique and those are very unique to humans. And so these are the two areas of what you believe to be unique to humans.

28:55 Stuck to the great Yes. Okay, And now finally let us descend the steps of the Holderson Homes basement. As we enter an enclosed area accessible only to investigators. After sawing through a piece of wood in the foundation, this particular ash trap was completely enclosed, meaning there was not an access point. Doctor Christina Soto appears to be a somewhat petite woman, and as she describes it, she was actually able to insert herself through the square holes they had cut in the foundation wall to inspect and collect what had accumulated inside. Be right back after this quick ad break. All of our episodes are available on Patreon ad free. If you want to help support the show, go to patreon dot com slash Tapes from the Dark Side.

30:08 Let's talk about the ashtrap a little bit. There was a lot of work performed with the ash trap. Yes, there was a lot of work done. Okay, I'm showing with the jury what's been marked is exhibit number three hundred and thirty four. They've seen this before and they've heard from mister Boswell testified, who I'm sure you know this was in the basement of a holdish and home. That is correct, okay. And mister Boswell testified that he was unable to kind of fit himself in there. But were you able to kind of fit yourself in there and take a look at the ashtrap for yourself? Yes, I was able to get in there. Okay, what is it? Can you describe the general condition of it? So just so you guys can get a little bit of an idea.

30:48 So we have those three different squares. So I was able to kind of fit in through that first one and then also the last one. The reason for that is because I really wanted to see if there was bone in there, right, So that's pretty much the pit. So whatever was on the top can potentially be on the. Bottom as well. And I really want to see it without being undisturbed, so I tried to snuck in and try to fit in there, and you can see it's almost like a mountain, like a little mountain, and then at the top of it you can kind of see again that brittle bone like material that had different colors, right, that white kind of residue, that black residue.

31:32 So it is quite unique. And so I'm showing now three thirty seven. Is that the inside? Yeah, that is the inside, so you can kind of see the little mountain. And is that on the right side of that photograph? Yes? Okay, you're an anthropologist by trade. Is ash or an ash trap kind of an ideal environment to perform an archaeological dig for bone or for fossils or for something of that sort. Is not. It's very difficult if you want to think about it in terms of just a regular archaeological dig. You're always you're always digging in dirt, So it's the consistency is there, so you can actually move the dirt and you can kind of go by layers it's.

32:20 Difficult, but it's definitely possible. Here it was a little bit more tricky because a of the confined environment and second the material itself, right, this is very loose, so we have to be very careful. When we were pretty much removing everything. Do you believe it's possible that some material had sunk through as you were removing some of the ash material? I think so? Yeah, Okay, in general, we'll talk about what your findings were in a second. But you found a number of items that you believe to be bone in the shashtrap? Yes, many, many items, Yeah, I would say, so were the majority on top or were they in the middle or in the bottom or something else? How would you describe where kind of in this pile you were able to remove those items from.

33:11 So the majority of the elements were actually in the top. So what we did is we actually separated and we try to keep it very consistent here. So we only had one person digging in this area, so we can keep it again consistent, and then we try to do it by layers, pretty much like an archaeological dig, right, So you go layer by layer. Because I really wanted to get a sense of how much was at the top, right, and then do we have anything at the bottom as well, So we separated it by pretty much. Once everything was out, we sifted everything that was taken, and then once it was sifted, it was put in a box, and that box was given a number, right, one being at the top, and I think it was twelve or thirteen being at the bottom.

33:55 Right. You have to remember this is super loose soil. So yeah, at some point I do believe that maybe some of those elements trickle down to another layer. But I think we were quite successful at getting as much material as possible without really disturbing the evidence. And you listed in fact in your report as you went through there were twelve tougherware containers of material of actual fragments taken out, and you listed per container how much or which elements you found in which TopWare container. Correct. Yes, I wanted it again. I wanted to keep it consistent, and especially with this being so such a difficult environment, I wanted to make sure that everything was labeled by container, and then also make sure that those containers were associated with the level as best as we could. And then from there it goes into a table. So we had several tables laid out outside, and we had multiple law.

34:55 Enforcement agents sifting throughout. Some of them had a lot of experience doing this before, so I was kind of jumping back and forth from table to table. Everything that was found that was suspected to be human was put in these containers. And as you can see, it kind of looks a little bit rough, right, because some of them do know what bone is, and some of them didn't. Think, well, I'm not one hundred percent sure if this is bone, so I'm putting it in. So they put everything in there, right. We did not toss anything. And then from there we actually had twelve boxes with significant material and. You took that back to the medical examiner's office. I did, and there are more ideal conditions there for you to actually examine the bone. Yes, So what I do is I kind of do a second sifting, and this one I actually do it by hand pretty much. I sit in front of that box and I go element by element and I try to clean them a little bit with just like a toothbrush, and I try to determine if this is in fact bone or not.

35:50 Sure, And we're just going to look at a couple different photographs here are varying software. Some of them have little to know the items in there, some of them have a lot that is correct. Well, just keep looking at them again, just different ones that were removed that day. And here we're getting maybe to the end where there's very little. Yeah, so that's the end. And we also. Research the fireplace, and we researched the fireplace create just. To make sure that we didn't miss anything. And then I strike, I start categorizing them. So in this case you can see almost at the bottom you have cranial fragments, right, So I try to pretty much establish Okay, this is my first cranial fragment that I found in this box, so I usually label it as a so that way, if I have to go back, I kind of remember pretty much what the inventory was, so I go by cranial fragments, dentals or dentian write any teeth, vertebrae. We found a potential long bone. I found some hands, and then also some small fragments that I cannot identified. So everything that you see this as small fragments, that's something that I know it's bone, but it's too small for me to say something about it.

37:04 By their location these bone fragments that were found in the ashtrip you've strongly suspected I believe that they've been burned. Yes, So when it undergoes fire, the first thing that is going to burn is the organic material, right. So that is why it is so difficult to get DNA out of burnt bone, right, because that inside that organic material, that good stuff actually burns quite quickly. So then the reason why you get still the shape of the bone is because you have that minerals. The minerals won't burn, So that. Is the reason why you still have that shape of that bone even though it undergoes fire. Right.

37:44 So the color of the bone is extremely important to me because it tells me the time, the duration. Right. So if you remember the other images of the other bones, we're kind of a yellowish, kind of brownish color. So that is unaltered bone, right, So that is bone that has not been through any type of damage. Talk to me about the color of the bones you were able to find at the Holderson home. So here we have mostly white bone. The dentals is a little bit of a black color. But the reason for that is because the dentals were actually embedded in at some point they were embedded in the mandible, right, So usually the mandible is the first one that burns, right, So as that burns, the.

38:28 Teeth are protected. And then once they're exposed, they're usually exposed to the fire and you usually get that kind of black to grayish color, right, So I'm expecting that on the teeth. However, on the bone, you can kind of see that as all white. Right. So we have the cranial fragments at the bottom and those are quite white. And then you have the vertebrae which is just on top of the dentition, and those were asked. They're also quite white. And you can kind of see we do see that proximal distal end of a long bone that is kind of transitioning, right. See that it's a little bit black and it kind of transitions into a white bone. So that also tells me that it was exposed to the fire for a long time.

39:11 We're not going to look at every photograph, correct. Yeah, there are too many, but that center image, so that center image is actually it was a very informative fragment. Do you remember those sutures right where the bones kind of meet. So if you kind of look at take a peek at the top, you can kind of see that little that little mark that is actually a cranial suture, and it is a well defined cranial suture. In this bone. If you flip it, you can kind of see again that layer, right, remember that sandwich like where you have that compac bone and then you have that spongy bone in the middle, and then you have so you can actually see the layers of that bone.

39:52 Are those cranial sutures informative in any way as an anthropologists to who this person was in terms of their gender or age or anything like that. Yeah, so again looking at age, the cranial sutures are actually very informative to tell age, right because if you think about it, as your bones are pretty much growing and fusing, there is the documented information and documented. Data about how the. Sutures should look like when you are a kid, a young adult, and then an adult. In this case, they're completely sutured. So that tells me that this was an adult.

40:33 Move to the next slide. You found a number of teeth ashtrap, correct, I did? All right, So we want to look at some photographs. Just what are we looking at there? So pretty much you're looking at so all the ones in the blue and the blue background, they are considered to be canines or central incisors or lateral incisors. Some of them might be premolars kind of you after your canines. But you can see, well the fine roots in here, and then on the black one you can actually see is a little bit bigger, right, a little bit wider, which could potentially indicate that is a molar. Right, So the ones on the back. Now, sometimes when we hear on the news that someone like you is involved in a case, will hear that they're looking at dental records to identify human remains. What do people mean by that when they say they're looking at dental records? And what role does dental records have and identifying teeth in human remains?

41:26 Yeah, So in this case, when we're trying to identify someone with dentals, what we do is we go back to their medical records, right, so they're dental records, and we get X rays, We get pretty much their dental chart. When you go to the dentists and you get an X ray, all of your teeth are in what we call inc two, so they are still embedded in your jaw, right. That is one of the unique features that the odontologists and myself use for identification, right, because the shape of that root is actually linked or associated with the mandible. Right. So the mandible is the kind of the one that works with the tooth to create that shape.

42:08 Right. So that's what we tend to use, one of the one of the. Many characteristics that we use. When you have teeth that are just loose, that you don't have a mandible, it gets very tough. It gets very difficult to identify them because first of all. You need to figure it out what tooth this is. Right. So in this case, I'm missing a lot of the crowns. So I'm having a hard time saying, well, it looks like a central incisor, but it also looks like a lateral incisor. So that's where the challenges of identification come, right, because we're missing the crown and we're also missing the mandible where those go. So the phrase identify someone by dental records means the position of their teeth, not so much the actual teeth.

42:52 Yeah, that's one of the characteristics that we use. Got it, next slide we have some additional teeth. Yeah, So as you can see these have a little bit of a different in color, So that's why I put a black background so that you guys can see it a little bit better. You can see we have all the way to your left and all the way to your right. Those are potentially canines or premolars. But then the ones in the center are a little bit bigger, right, So those are the ones that go all the way in the. Back, the molars. Right when you're chewing, most of the food goes to the back, and those are the ones that are responsible for that. So we were able to find an array of different types of teeth.

43:33 And just because this is the last slide dealing with teeth, I'll ask the overall question, you were not able to identify whose teeth these were because of the condition they were in and how they were removed, essentially, that is correct, And did you consult with other experts in the field. We did, working through this case for the better part of the last half year. I can't help but to sometimes imagine Chandler's life with Bart and Christa growing up. We've heard now how they would take him to hockey games every week. One detail among the various ways they loved and cared for their son. Tonight, as I sit here recording this, a vivid scene dances across my mind, part of an overactive imagination, and I have no idea how accurate it is. In this fantasy, I imagine Christa cheerily making Chandler's lunch for school when he was a boy.

44:32 Admittedly this is a projection of my own childhood, but if Krista was like my mom, and she very much sounds like she fits the type, a handwritten note on a napkin reminding Chandler of her love for him was likely part of that lunch. And now Christa's body, along with that of her husband, reduced to literal ash, held neatly inside the confines of a tupperware container, at the hand of none other than that same little boy. Her only crime against Chandler was maybe being a little bit too permissive at times, and that's a big Maybe every kid needs some grace, some distance, slack on their metaphorical leash, to learn to make mistakes and to face the consequences when they do. Through this process, we learn it's not the end of the world when we screw up, even when we screw up big. When we're apt to do, and what Chandler certainly did. And the single most tragic part of this case that I keep coming back to even now after twelve chapters, is that if Chandler had gone to his parents and simply confessed the truth of his whole situation, all of his lies, all of the deception, all of the theft. Remember, he was probably also stealing the tuition money for an entire year. Christa and Bart would have almost surely forgiven him. Would they have been mad, Yes, there have been consequences, almost certainly, but all the evidence

46:06 points to the fact that they would have loved Chandler despite his mistakes. Instead, the dark reality we inhabit is that there is no forgiveness, and there will be no forgiveness for Chandler Alderson, at least for the remainder of his time that he will spend on Earth. His soul lives in darkness, a darkness that makes the ash trap in the pacement of his home appear like a well lit, fluorescent bathroom. The decisions that Chandler made July first, twenty twenty one made it so that the only two people that could have forgiven him were removed from this realm.

46:54 And so while I still and always will hold out hope for Chandler's soul after life, if there is such a thing, at least in this life, for the remainder of his trip on this tiny speck of dust, there will be no redemption. In addition to teeth and cranial bone, doctor Soto also found cervical vertebrae distal flangies, which are the bones in your fingertips, in what she classified as long bones. These are bones that she thinks were some part of the femur and possibly also a tibia, but that she couldn't classify precisely. When the day was done, doctor Soto and her team were able to identify one hundred and six fragments of bone inside the Halderson fireplace and the ashtrap.

47:54 And I know you've been talking for a while, but this is my I guess last slide we're going to go through. You put some of your conclude about what you found in this slide. Tell me about this and those numbers that you came to include on the slide. Sure, So I just wanted to kind of give you an overall sense of what we found, right, So, we found a total of one hundred and six fragments of bone that were able to be identified. From those one hundred and six, fifty three of them were considered to be on the cranium. When I'm saying cramium, I'm talking about skull and also mandible. And then we were able to identify eighteen of them as hands, part of the hands, twenty four of them as dental fragments, and eight of them as vertebrae, and three of them as long bones.

48:44 In addition to that, I had one hundred and twenty four fragments that I know their bone, but I was unable to identify them. So we had a grand total of two hundred and thirty bones fragmented bones that were found again inside the fireplace on the Great and also in the ash disposal area. Nothing further cross examination. Thank you. Again. Because it's short and another rare moment of cross examination by the defense, I'll include this clip. Thank you. It's good morning or good afternoon.

49:25 Now, I think starting sort of where we left off with those bone fragments found at the home. I think I heard you say that you could identify whether they were human or not. Let's start there. That is correct. So some of the things you found, for whatever reason, you could not identify as human. Some you could identify as human, That is correct. Now, some of them you also were able to determine came from an adult human. Is that right? Some of the fragments did have features of an adult.

50:06 Now, none of the fragments that you found could tell you whether it was a male or a female adult human. Correct, that is correct. And despite the. Number of bone fragments you found, you weren't able to determine if they came from one human or six different humans. Correct, that is correct. Now, turning back to your analysis. From the beginning of your testimony, you were given a couple of tools to compare. With the evidence that you found.

50:46 Is that right? That is correct. So the total number of tools you were given was two. Is that right? Yes, and you were able. To say that what you found was consistent with those tools, but you couldn't say that those were the actual tools that. Cause those marks. Correct. That is correct. That's all I have. Thank you, any read director, and may this witness be excused? Yes, thank you so much. Thank you. At this point in the case, the evidence against Chandler is overwhelming. Any reasonable person i believe would understand that Chandler Alderson is guilty, and guilty far, far beyond any reasonable doubt. But I still have so much to tell you what has come to be known as quote, the snapchat clue, the discovery of Christa's remains, and last but not least, the Jurney's decision and Chandler's sentence. The season might be winding down, but to me, it also kind of feels like it's just heating up, which is admittedly kind of bizarre, seeing as we usually complete a story in five to ten episodes. But I guess you could say this one is going the distance. I don't want to spoil anything, but I should also tell you that I completed a three hour long interview with a former Dane County inmate who shared a bunk with Chandler Alderson himself during his trial. That interview I thought would be

52:19 the highlight of my coverage on this case, not to jinxid, but over the past twenty four hours, I've been contacted by someone with knowledge of this case that they haven't shared with a single person, and they want to do an interview with yours truly, all that and much more coming up on Tapes from the Dark Side. At the end of this episode, I mentioned how we're taking longer than usual to tell this case, and part of the reason we can do that is because we are a fully independent show, supported almost entirely by listener contributions. I have no doubt that if I was working for a producer at this point, they would have told me to finish the season probably about three months ago, or start looking for a new producer. Thank god that is not our situation, because I think this level of coverage that we're providing is something that true crime enthusiast crave, and the fact that you're listening to this right now proves that.

53:36 I must say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with cracking open Wikipedia along with a bottle of wine and recording a new true crime podcast. But I think what we have here at Tapes from the Dark Side is something a little different. We offer deep dives, perhaps the deepest dive on that particular true crime case, and I also think we do it, or at least we to do that with the least amount of fluff possible. When I set out to make this podcast, I got the name Tapes from the Dark Side. As you might guess, from the classic Anthology horror TV show, and the podcast was originally intended to follow a similar format, a single case per episode. Yet with season one in the Red Wine case, I discovered almost immediately that I guess my brain works a little differently. I seem to obsess over details that get overlooked in other people's coverage, but it's my belief that those details are exactly what makes the genre compelling in the first place. Without the details, I wouldn't be doing this. I wouldn't be here, literally, on at three am on a Sunday morning, sitting alone in the dark, talking to you. And the fact that you're wherever you are right now with your earphones in or with this podcast playing over the stereo, means that you are bit like me. You have to be if you're here. And so now I'm going to do that thing I do each episode, which is humbly ask you to consider donating

55:10 a few of your hard earned dollars to me. In exchange, I will promise you to make this show. I can't promise a weekly episode, I can't even promise that I will be entertaining, but I promise I will continue to try my damnedest to create something interesting, something dark, something regarding prime, and hopefully something true. If you want to contribute to this cause, you can do so at patreon dot com slash Tapes from the Dark Side. We also have ad free episodes on there and a bonus monthly series called Night Terrors, where I am trying to tell one story in one episode. You know, I struggle to do that, but so far we have. We've done ten of those and there is a new one coming this month. Again, if you want to donate and become part of the band that is Patreon dot com slash Tapes from the Dark Side, we have a whole bunch of new dark Siders this month, and I think partly to blame for this is Justin Drown of Obscura. He humored me by joining me for a conversation about one of the darkest figures in true crime, a man I had never heard of until he mentioned his name. That man's name is Peter sodos In. That conversation is on my Patreon. It's

56:43 also on Justin's Patreon, and I think he put it on his public feed as well. Thank you again so much to Justin for taking the time to talk to me. Letting me pick his brain. I've told him this before, and I truly think this. I come out of each conversation with just not only a more well rounded creator, but I also think just a better person. I can't say exactly why, but he just seems to have that effect on me. So thank you to all of our new supporters this month. Our newest Darksiders are Grant Field, Lollie, Denise Legere, Stephanie Livingston, Kimberly Picard, Jeremiah Amber, Luciana, Amy Fish, Timothy Wykas, Michelle c Daniel McPherson, Tina Strikowski, Ali Rose, Maggot Knight, Kelsey Pryor, Sidney Raynan, Alex MacGuire, Jennifer Hilligas, Far From Mediocre, Ash Satish Kamar, Jackie Flanagan, Paullyanna Carvallo, Sarah A, Crystal Lelik, Hayley Hodges, Kelsey Olivieri, Jeff Lockwood, Kate Gilbert, Danica Curry, Jenna Batya, Aaron Young, Travis Davis, Lance Zeppelin, Gabby Jay, Kirsten Bagley, Umi Finnair, Monica Mendez,

58:21 Kerri Bach Hanson, Jason Envelope, Amanda Stone Rock, Carolyn Newsome, Stinker, Jody c Okay, Feedback, Andy Dennison, Trent Heisler, Rainy Mist, Denise Williams, Elsa Calzada, Matthew Brockmeyer, Michelle Folkerson, Claire m and Our new one year members who are saving a couple months on their membership are Christy Fraser, Terry Burke, Woollen, Aaron RedWine and Eric. Thank you to our newest producers who truly keep the show running out of their generosity, kindness, Veronica Pencil, Junkie, Ducky Crawford and Carrie link Us. Thank you so much to all of our producers, Aaron Kristin, Rice, Jesse Bateman, Mariah, Monique Wilkinson, Teddy Redman, Jason Irvin, Jessica Cooper, Fiona Gibson, Sun Dean, Joyce, Loveless, I'll say, Katzalon, Malary Bitterman, Santana Savine, Jonathan Cox, Gino Hoy Bunco, Tyler Ernster, Sherry Sly, Shelley Jones, Fran Alexis, Kathleen and Greg b As always,

59:54 if I mispronounce your name, please let me know you can get in touch with me The dark Side Pod on Instagram. I also post true crime stuff sometimes pictures related to the cases. So look me up if you're on Instagram and you want to follow me again, it's at the dark Side Pod and also you can reach me by email tapes from the dark Side Pod at gmail dot com. Thank you so much to twenty six hundred who allowed us to adapt one of his songs for our main theme into Augusta Trevororum, who created original music for the show. Their links are in the show notes.

1:00:39 And until next time, try to enjoy the daylights. Yeah google bats in that sturd mastogipros. He slips as. Long as a paki. Yet these are wounds, not scars.

1:01:44 It will only be a scar when it stops bleeding, stops hurting. You can forget about scars, but you cannot forget about wounds,