S11, Chapter 7: Tarkov

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This is Tapes from the Dark Side, and we're going to run one quick

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ad before the episode begins. Just
fast forward at about thirty seconds if you

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want to skip it. Tapes from
the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and

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sexuality. Listener discretion is advised.
Tarkov is located in a brutal, cold

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and unforgiving climate. It's in the
Norvinsk region of northwestern Russia, what's called

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a special economic zone. At some
points in the mid twenty and tens,

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a major political scandal implicated a corrupt
corporation, which resulted in the near total

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collapse of the local economy, and
just a few months later the area erupted

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into an intense armed conflict that is
ongoing to this day. Among those involved

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are Russian troops, United Nations peacekeepers, and a number of private military contractors.

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Chandler Holderson fought in Tarkov alongside one
of his best friends, Andrew Smith,

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who goes by the name Smitty.
Though there's one thing about Tarkov that

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you need to know, you won't
find it on any real world map.

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That's because it exists only in a
fictional world of a hyper realistic military shooting

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game. Called Escape from Tarkov.
Just like in the real world, in

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Tarkov, each item you take into
the battlefield can greatly affect your survival.

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You must plan meticulously to have enough
food and water to survive each battle.

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How much gear you take affects your
stamina and speed. There are no on

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screen map displays, and you have
to rely on your own instinct and sense

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of direction. You don't even get
a meter that shows how many bullets are

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left in your gun, you have
to manually check. In the vast world

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of gaming, Tarkov has crafted specifically
for those seeking a unique experience that closely

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mirrors real life. And while this
may seem like a fairly small niche,

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despite releasing all the way back in
twenty sixteen, nearly a decade ago,

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the game still averages well over one
hundred thousand players online daily. In fact,

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if I check right now on activeplayer
dot io, there are currently sixty

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one thousand players online at this very
moment, and in the last thirty days

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the game has averaged six hundred and
eighty thousand daily players. It's on this

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digital frontier that Chandler Holderson and Andrew
Smith became friends. Andrew was deployed in

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Germany at the time on assignment the
United States military, and he just so

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happened to be logged in at the
same time when Chandler, who was half

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a world away, was also online. On the battlefield of Tarkov, Chandler

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and Andrew would escape together from the
stresses of monotony of everyday life to a

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virtual hellescape where they would fight side
by side for a rush of adrenaline.

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In that momentary feeling of victory.
Smitty became close friends with Chandler. In

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fact, they became best friends.
They talked almost every day on Discord the

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game together, shared about their life, and one day would even meet in

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person, further strengthening their bond.
I found Andrew Smith's Discord name and tracked

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him down in a group that he
was active in. From there, I

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reached out and asked if he would
be willing to talk with me, and

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to my surprise, he was.
After all, who would know him better

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than his best friend, and so
we set a time to talk. Hello,

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Hey, can you hear me?
Yeah? I opened up. Bruh,

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Hey, what's going on man?
Thanks for making the time, Yeah,

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no problem. I rolled three joints
because I knew there was gonna be

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some shit, so I might as
well get prepared for it. That's actually

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a question I had for you.
Can you tell me a little bit about

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Germany? Like how long you were
stationed there? And did you meet Chaz

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while you were over there? Had
you already met him online before that?

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He had met him when I was
stationed over in Germany? Okay? Did

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you guys meet in Tarkov or was
it another game? Or that was Arma

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three? Arma three? Okay?
I've never played either of those games.

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But is Arma similar to Tarkov?
Or no? Okay? So it's either

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you go and spun into a world
and you hunt for gears and then you

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kill people, or you go and
spun into a world kill zombies in hunt

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for gear and still end up killing
people. It's one of the same concept,

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same shit, like as aggressive as
having to hunt for Shade, so

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much easier just fucking joining the world
right quick? Okay? So Arma is

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a little more casual. Maybe yeah, arm a military stimulator. It's really

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casual gameplay. It's not really for
long time progression play because it's really boring

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after you played for like a week
or two. Okay, because it's the

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same shit over and over again.
Chaz's favorite thing was to fucking hunt players

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while he was flying around in an
F thirty five in Arma three. Okay,

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is that to like troll them or
is that just a strategy to win

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the game or something, or I
don't know. I wonder if it was

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just been a aggression thinking back on
it, because he would go into or

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he would make him This was before
I was close friends with him, but

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like actually friends with them. He
would put himself into invisible mode to pretend

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he wasn't actually on the server,
and you would go around and do whatever

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should, pretend to be a different
character killing people on the server. That's

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way he wouldn't get bothered by all
the friends that he was just straight up

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murdering there and doing all sorts of
other shit. Interesting, is invisible mode?

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Is that like a cheat or a
hack or something. No, he

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wouldn't be invisible. He would just
seem profile to invisible. So that way

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you can track down if someone was
online, Like the only way you could

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tell if you were a fude enough. So like for me, for example,

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like the only reason I knew was
because I shift to have seen his

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profile. I tro backtracked into my
friend's list and seeing he was offline,

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I was like, oh, that
makes sense, and you guys could talk

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to each other. Was it through
discord or through the game that you could

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chat during playing or something? We
would chat in the game and then we

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would chat on discord over time.
Do you remember like how you first became

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friends. I had made friends with
one of his friends, which was another

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admin on the server at the time, which because they were both abins,

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they were friends together. Oh so
it's kind of like a friend of a

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friend situation, and we just got
really close. When Andrew, or as

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we know in Smitty, returned from
Germany, he made a plan to visit

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his friend in person for the first
time. This little impromptu road trip would

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unwittingly set into motion a series of
events that would end in abject tragedy and

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would also lead to Smitty at the
witness stand in front of a packed courtroom

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in a murder trial. You see, during his trip to Wisconsin, Smitty

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brought with him a gift for his
friend, what to most would probably seem

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like an unusual gift, but for
a military man and a gun enthusiast,

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it didn't seem strange at all.
It was Chaz's favorite gun in the Tarkau

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video game, except in real life
an SKS semi automatic rifle, the same

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gun that Jazz would he use to
slaughter his mother and father. Perfect,

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Good afternoon, stir. Could you
please state your name and then spell it

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out so everyone who's taking notes just
knows how it's spelled. Andrew Smith?

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And how do you spell it?
Alpha, November, delta, romeo,

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echo, whiskey. And your last
name is Smith, common spelling. And

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how old are you, sir?
Twenty two? Sir? And what area

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of the country do you live in? Kansas? Sir? Do you know

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someone by the name of Chandler Holderson? Yes, sir. How did you

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meet Chamler Holderson playing video games while
the station in Germany? Sir? And

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did you see mister Holderson in the
courtroom here today? Yes, sir.

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All right, before it's going to
happen here is the judge is going to

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give some instructions, and I'm going
to ask you where he is. So

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wait one second. I would ask
everyone who's not in the jury box to

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lower their masks for just a short
moment so that all faces are observed by

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the witness you can replace your masks. Thank you. Did you see mister

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Holderson here in the courtroom, yes, sir, you tell me where he's

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sitting and kind of what he's wearing
over on the right, sir, in

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his suit, sir' talk a little
bit about I guess that time period in

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which you met mister Halderson. You
said you were stationed over in Germany,

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Yes, sir. Were you in
the military, yes, sir. What

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branch army, sir? And where
in Germany were you stationed on? Boxer?

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And where about is that middle of
BF sir? Okay? And how

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did you meet someone who lived here
in Wisconsin while you were in Germany?

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Playing video games on Armor three server? Sir? And what type of video

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games were you playing? Mostly FBS, sir. What type of game is

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that so go around complete objectives and
capture certain scenarios, sir? Is a

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shooting game, yes, sir.
Did you talk to him a lot?

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Yes, sir. Did you develop
a friendship? Yes, sir, if

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you just had to give us a
general overview. How often would you play

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video games with Chamar online? Almost
every day, sir. At some point

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you end up here back coming back
to the United States, Yes, sir,

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military service was over something like that, Okay. At any point where

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you were in the military toward the
end of your service, did you suffer

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an injury yourself? Yes, sir, I was in Germany and I was

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coming off the fifty Cow range in
a German told our Humby and I got

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in a Humby wreck. So I
slammed my forehead on a hard side wall

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of the vehicle. Unfortunately, though, you got a head injury, essentially,

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sir. Okay. After you moved
back to Wisconsin or to the United

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States, did your frequency of playing
video games, and mister Holderson, did

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it increase decrease? Say the same
increase, sir, I was in the

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same time zone, okay, And
would you continue to play the same types

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of games? Yes, sir,
all right. Is there any specific weapons

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that mister Holderson liked what he's playing
these games? It really depends on what

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we were playing on Tarkov or Escape
from Tarkovs, what's the game was called.

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It would range for realistically to whatever
we could find inside the video game,

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because not everything was necessarily easily to
collect. But the scas was certainly

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a weapon that was fun to use
and talk of and was something that I've

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had grown interest in as well.
Okay, and around this time after you

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came back to the United States,
did you learn anything more about where mister

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Halderson was in life? Had jobs
changed, school changed, or was things

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the same for him? Essentially,
what I understood was he was still going

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to college and he at some point
had gone back to Windsor Or I think

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it's called Windsor and had started working
for some company installing solar panels that are

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working on contracts for solar panels.
Okay, at some point you decided to

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come visit Chandler, Yes, sir? Whatabouts was that sometime during I think

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it was June, sir of this
past year. Yes, in generally,

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just how did that come about?
Did he ask me to come up?

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Did you decide to come up?
So it was one of those last minute

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decisions, des I was I be
able to make her. So my wife

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had ended up going to visit family
in Ohio and she was going to be

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gone for two weeks. So I
went and looked at how many points I

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had I was able to take off
work, and I went and caught off

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work that day so I could come
up and have a weekend with driving up

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there and then spending two days with
him, Sir, had you ever been

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to Wisconsin before? No, sir, it's a long drive up here.

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No shit, Yes, sir,
it's okay. So everyone slips up.

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I'm showing you what's been marked in
this case as exhibit number three hundred and

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ninety two. Is that you and
Sham are up here? Yes, sir,

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all right, and i'll just move
three ninety two in evidence. I'll

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just show it to the jury.
If that's okay, judge any objection it's

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received. You may publish where'd you
stay when you were up here with mister

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Halderson in their family home in the
basement? Sir? Did you meet his

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parents? Yes, sir, okay, when you were up here? Kind

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of things? Did you do for
fun? Where'd you go? So?

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We went swimming at some river at
some point, and then we went and

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drove around to the different department stores. Department stores, and we're looking at

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weapons and all that. So we
went to Cabela's. We went to I

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think it was I want to say
it was a bass prop, but that

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doesn't sound right. I know.
We went to Gander Mountain and then we

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went to like one or two other
places, but I can't remember what they

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were. When you visited Wisconsinacy Chandeler, you brought him a gift, Yes,

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sir, what did you bring him? I brought him a twenty inch

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barrel sks. How did you acquire
this gun? So? I had purchased

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it on a gun broker, and
I went had it sent to my fl

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and then I went and sat in
the fl until I went and did the

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FL transfer. So I proached it
initially because I really thought like, oh,

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well, I like in the video
game, I might like it in

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real life. And then I fired
it. It sat in my safe and

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then I never touched it again,
and then it just dawn to me like,

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well, I'm going to give it
to someone who might actually appreciate this

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weapon and take care of it and
all that. So I ended up giving

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it to Chandler as a gift.
Okay, you like guns, you didn't

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particularly love this gun, No,
sir. I'm going to show you what's

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been Marx is Exhibit number three and
ninety one. You know what that document

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is, yes, sir, it's
a fil transfer paperwork, sir. And

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you've been saying the phrase FFL correct. Yes, what does that mean that's

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a federal firearms license holder, meaning
someone who's licensed to sell firearms and fills

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out paper and does the correct background
checks and such. Got it a move

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three nine one in evidence? No, Objeckson, it is received. This

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document has your signature on it and
the person who sold it their signature,

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correct, yes, sir. And
it has the serial number of the weapon

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that you purchased, yes, sir, got it. Now, when you

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gave the gun to Chance, did
he pay you for it? No,

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sir, it was a gift,
yes, sir. Did you document in

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any way transferring that gun to him? Yes, sir. How did you

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choose? Did you fill out paperwork
like this? I took his photo ID

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that the state issued him, and
I took it right next to the serial

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number, annotating that this was me
giving this weapon to this individual, so

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that way, if anything like this
would occur, that it wouldn't necessarily come

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back to me. Okay, it
was important to you to document that most

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times, it is yes, okay. Had Chandler asked you for this gun

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or was this just your idea?
I think he had at one point asked

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for it as a joke, but
mostly it was my idea. Sir,

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okay, you brought him other things
that go with the gun? Yes,

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00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:24.600
sir? What type of things?
So? I had brought him a steel

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canister that had contained roughly four hundred
and eighty rounds of seven sixty two by

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00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.480
thirty nine steelcase two lamo, And
is that the ammunition that goes with that

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00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.519
weapon? Yes, sir. We'll
take a quick break and when we come

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00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:39.840
back. How did Chandler react when
you gave him the gun? Elio was

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happy? Don't go anywhere? How
did Chandler react when you gave him the

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00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:48.559
gun? Elio was happy? What
do you mean? But how do you

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00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.720
know he was happier? How do
you how do you know that? Because

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00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.840
he had a big smile on his
face when I had given it to him

219
00:15:52.840 --> 00:16:03.200
as a gift. Were you aware
whether his parents that he was living with

220
00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:06.879
were gun people or wanted guns in
their home? As far as I knew

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00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:11.159
that or what I was explained by
Chandler was that his parents understood the reason

222
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of why fire arms exist in this
world, and not that they necessarily support

223
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having them, but they're helpful in
situations. Sure, to your knowledge,

224
00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:23.840
to Chandler have any guns? As
far as I knew. He told me

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00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:32.799
that he had owned a AR fifteen
with a with a barrel extension that had

226
00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:34.320
to be voted on or something like
that. It was kind of looked like

227
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.200
sixteen almost. Did you ever see
that gun? He had showed me a

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00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:42.639
picture of it on the app called
Discord, but I don't have any documentation

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00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.759
of that. When you were here
in Wisconsin. Did you ever see any

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00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.080
guns in the Holderson house? I
think I asked about it, but I

231
00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:52.840
think he said that they had it
at the wherever their cabin was. What

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00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.159
did you do with What did Chandler
do with the gun? Were you able

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00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:57.279
to figure out where he put it
in the house? Yeah? He had

234
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initially, so if you would walk
down the fly stirs in the basement,

235
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you would look left there. It
was like a little woodpile, and he

236
00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:07.200
had stuck it in the middle section
there because it was I understood that they

237
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.960
might not be happy about having this
firearm. So, but he had told

238
00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:14.880
me he was going to be moving
soon to do a career in SpaceX in

239
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.759
Florida, so he was just going
to take it with him and move out

240
00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.400
there with it. Were there any
magazines that came with the gun? Yes,

241
00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:27.640
sir, three three and those all
went with that gun? Yes,

242
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.200
sir? How did were they loaded
when you gave them to them? Not

243
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.480
initially, sir? How did they
become loaded? I think we were bullshitting

244
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.640
with the magazine, sir, and
both of us and were like he was

245
00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:38.279
asked me how to load it,
So I was like, oh, you

246
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:45.039
just and I was showing him how
to pack the magazine. Sure, aside

247
00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.880
from and I think we've got it. But aside from the gun, that

248
00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.880
the three magazines, the ammo can
and then the four hundred some rounds of

249
00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:53.559
ammunition, was there anything else related
to the gun that you gave the Chamdler,

250
00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.400
The optic that came on the weapon, the site if for most people,

251
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:00.880
if people aren't gun people, what's
an opt it's the same thing kind

252
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:07.319
essentially. Did you discuss with Chandler
when you gave him the weapon in June

253
00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.039
of this past year, anything more
about what he was going to do with

254
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:12.519
it other than I think you said
he was going to move to Florida with

255
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.279
his new job. Anything else did
you did you discuss? Was he gonna

256
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.680
go hunting? Anything like that?
I don't believe. So, sir,

257
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:26.079
did you find out at some point
that Chammer's parents were missing. Yes,

258
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.279
sir, how did you find out? It was shortly after the fourth July,

259
00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:33.200
when I had came back from Texas
from visiting my other buddy. He

260
00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:40.720
had gave me a sort of not
hysterical per se, but a pretty upsetting

261
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.319
call that his parents hadn't got back
to him or he hadn't seen them.

262
00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:47.880
Sure, And then the cadence of
things was this was after the head injury.

263
00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:51.319
Yes, sir. Did Chammer tell
you anything about the head injury in

264
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.319
terms of specifics about what was going
to happen? Or he told me that

265
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.880
he would have to wear a neck
brace and that they were supposed to drill

266
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.799
a hole in his head or something
like that to alleviate sort of pressure.

267
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:07.839
Okay, did you talk to Chandler
about his parents being missing? Yes,

268
00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.960
sir, tell me about those conversations. Well, day one when he told

269
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:15.759
us, because he had told me
and my friend that he's friends with that

270
00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:18.599
I visited when I was down in
Texas, he told us that they had

271
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been missing. So we both suggested
to him that, hey, if this

272
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.160
is really a big concern for you, you might want to contact law enforcement

273
00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.279
immediately. Okay, what did Chandler
say to that? He said, well,

274
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they might they might turn up,
so I'll just wait a few days,

275
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and so it goes. After that
conversation. Do you recall having any

276
00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:41.160
other conversations with Chandler about his parents
being missing? I just think talking about

277
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.680
how or where they could have end
up it or what was going on with

278
00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:51.200
the situation at some point, I'm
sure, and obviously now you're aware that

279
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:57.039
Chandler was arrested for for what happened. Yes, sir, you began having

280
00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:02.200
to have some conversations with law enforcement
because a gun that was found very close

281
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:07.000
to bart Alderson, Chandler's father,
was that gun that we just showed you,

282
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:11.359
and so law enforcement started talking to
you, right, Yes, well,

283
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:14.839
I'd reach out to them immediately upon
figuring out that he had been arrested.

284
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.400
You've been cooperative with law enforcement the
whole time, haven't you. I'm

285
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:22.359
not going to be a broken piece
of glasser, meaning you'll help if you

286
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:26.799
need to. Yes, okay.
The police in fact visited you down in

287
00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:32.279
your where you live at some point. Yes, sir, you, when

288
00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:36.160
asked, had given them access to
things like bank records or your phone and

289
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.119
things of that sort, yes,
sir, and you've provided photographs whenever you

290
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:41.640
could. Yes, sir, why
was that important to you to assist?

291
00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.799
Well, to put it blantly,
sir, I served in the army and

292
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:49.599
I'm not going to get fucked for
something that I didn't do. Next up

293
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:53.720
is the cross examination, and I
have to warn you it's not all that

294
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.319
interesting, but it's short, and
it's one of the only times in the

295
00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:03.400
trial that the defense chooses to cross
examine the witness, and for that alone,

296
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:07.240
I think it's interesting. But not
only that. You can tell that

297
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.519
Smitty is a little bit frazzled by
the defense's questions, and there's a moment

298
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:18.559
at the very end that well,
you'll just have to hear. Thank you,

299
00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:25.799
sir. Cross examination. Good afternoon, mister Smith. Good new ma'am.

300
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:30.319
I'd like to first ask you a
few questions about that SKS that you

301
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:33.960
purchased. Is it correct that you
purchased that initially for yourself? Yes,

302
00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:41.720
sir or ma'am, sorry you.
Is it fair to say you're interested in

303
00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:48.119
guns in firearms, yes, ma'am. You said you went and fired that

304
00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:55.000
SKS maybe twenty times. I had
shot at once and put twenty rounds to

305
00:21:55.079 --> 00:22:00.400
them the rifle itself through my hands, ma'am. After that you decided it

306
00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.039
wasn't that appealing to you, No, ma'am, just too much of kick,

307
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:10.759
too much of anything that didn't make
me happy about the weapon. What

308
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:15.559
do you mean by too much kick? So each caliber of weapon or bullet

309
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.960
will fire x amount of powder through
it. So, for example, the

310
00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.880
SCS which shoots seven sixty two by
three nine eight or whatever it is in

311
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:27.000
Russia, it shoots a bigger payload
of powder versus five five six lash two

312
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.720
two three, which shoots up twenty
seven grains of powder. So it's not

313
00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:34.319
as much kick, but we can
still put enough firepower down range. Why

314
00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:40.000
does the kick make it unappealing to
you? Because if I had to defend

315
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.640
my family from a home intruder,
I think five to five six is going

316
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.960
to be a lot easier and a
lot faster for me to react with sen

317
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:51.519
a seven to sixty two by three
nine rounds. Compared to other guns or

318
00:22:51.599 --> 00:23:00.480
firearms that you've used, the SKS
is somewhat louder than similar type fire arms.

319
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:04.559
Correct, not necessarily, it depends. It really depends on a lot

320
00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:11.279
of things alone. Where the location
is if you're in a let's say you're

321
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:14.279
s unit in here, it's going
to be loud as help because there's all

322
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.440
the encasing around you. If you're
outside, it's going to be not as

323
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.000
loud, but it's still going to
be pretty loud. Louder than a handgun,

324
00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:30.359
not necessarily under similar circumstances. Louder
than a handgun possibly. Yes.

325
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:40.720
Now, when you gifted this SKS
to mister Helderson, you talked about this

326
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:47.440
procedure you use with taking a photo
of someone's driver's license there with the serial

327
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:53.000
number from the firearm yesterre that that's
not something you only have done with mister

328
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:59.640
Helderson. It's something you've done anytime
you've sold, transferred, or gifted firearms.

329
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:03.759
Correct, yes, ma'am. And
you've done that several times, yes,

330
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:10.200
ma'am. How many depends on a
lot of things. If I have

331
00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:14.359
so, I can have an air
fifteen that I'll buy and I'll build it,

332
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:17.559
and then it'll sit in my safe
for whatever reason for a long time,

333
00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:21.480
and then I can. You're like, oh, okay, well go

334
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:25.559
and sell it. But as for
how many I've sold, that's none of

335
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:36.359
your business. Frankly, Okay,
that's really all I have. Thank you,

336
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:41.079
any redirect, may this wouldness be
excused and released? Yes, thank

337
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:45.240
you, sir, have a good
guest of your day. Thank you.

338
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:49.079
So what did you guys do besides
go to the river? Did you guys

339
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:56.400
like play video games together? When? Actually I think when I was up

340
00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.160
there because I didn't have a laptop
at the time, I was fucking I

341
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.759
was up there, and we were
just driving around and bullshitting, eating and

342
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.440
like fucking off at random stores.
You know what I mean, the stupid

343
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.400
that you do when you don't got
anything better to do. Did you ever

344
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:15.160
feel like he was a pathological liar
or did you ever have did you ever

345
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:19.359
catch him in a lie or something
like that? No, I don't think

346
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:27.000
so, Okay, interesting, Like
I'm torn, honestly, Like I'm torn

347
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.880
between one of my best friend back
in my life because he was my best

348
00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:36.000
fucking friend. But I don't fucking
forgive him for what he did. But

349
00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:41.039
like, you know what I mean, Yeah, it's weird. It's really

350
00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:48.000
fucking weird to describe. Yeah,
I can imagine, yeah, fucked up

351
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:57.359
down, Like, uh yeah,
it's really fucked up. And I still

352
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:03.519
fucking feel absolutely shit. Before it
every single day, Like, what do

353
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.839
you feel shitty about, like the
fact that I somehow played a part in

354
00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:17.039
the fucking evil that took place he
intended to happen, Right, It's not

355
00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:18.400
like I fucking wanted him to go
out and go, oh do this,

356
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.519
Like no for the fucking gift,
because I thought he was my actual friend.

357
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:26.319
I was fucking happy to have a
real friend who actually liked me.

358
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:33.519
Yeah. Yeah, it's fucked up. So do you think he is just

359
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:40.880
some kind of psychopath that doesn't really
have human emotions, or I mean,

360
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:48.000
he has emotions, but it's a
little bit different. Yeah, I didn't

361
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:52.079
notice one thing when I went and
was visiting them. I remember I had

362
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.119
dunked him under the water instead of
like you know, as a friend would

363
00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.759
do, get up and get not
necessarily pissed, but he would fucking around.

364
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.559
He got up and he acted like, huh, well, I guess

365
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.119
I was taking a while to do
that. And I stands out now,

366
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:12.359
like that's kind of strange. What
do you you said taking a while to

367
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:17.000
do that? What do you mean
we were fucking swimming in that river that

368
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:22.519
he fucking apparently dumbed body parts around? Oh wow? It was that wisconstant

369
00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:29.400
or uh yeah, the wherever river
the right right, and you dunked him

370
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:33.960
and he said and then he came
up and he he just like huh,

371
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.359
well, I guess I was taking
some or too long to do that,

372
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.960
like I like laugh haha, like
no weird smile, and it was just

373
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:47.319
like hmmm, I don't know how
I feel about this, you know what

374
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:51.400
I mean? Looking back at it's
kind of strange, right, It's just

375
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:56.359
kind of like a weird vibe moment. It seemed like he had like a

376
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.359
sense of humor. It was kind
of a he was a great it's a

377
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.599
great dry sense of humor, like
a fucking around and shit, you know

378
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:07.480
what I mean. But like right, I don't understand what the mental disconnect

379
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:11.880
was. As I said before,
I spent a little bit of time going

380
00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:15.799
back and forth with Smitty on Discord
setting up this interview, and one message

381
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:21.039
he sent me stuck with me just
as much as anything he said in person.

382
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:25.759
Quote, I don't know why he
did what he did, and I

383
00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:30.359
honestly wish I could talk to him
in person and just know why I loved

384
00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.480
him. He was my best friend
and I would do anything to have helped

385
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:40.599
him do the right thing. But
I have nightmares and I so cry thinking

386
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:49.440
about my friend and why you decided
to do this shit. There are eight

387
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:56.680
billion people in the world today,
around four hundred thousand people born each day.

388
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:03.359
It's staggering to think about we consider
our place in this world. It's

389
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:07.799
easy to fall into the trap of
starting to think that your individual life is

390
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:14.039
so minuscule that it doesn't matter.
But if there's anything that true crime teaches

391
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:18.880
us, it's that it does when
you skip a rock across a pond that

392
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:26.319
still water bows and then ripples outwards. In that one brief moment that that

393
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.359
rock breaks the surface tension of the
water, it causes a ripple that can

394
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:34.960
echo all the way to the shoreline. No life exists in a vacuum,

395
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:41.559
each soul perhaps an individual thread.
Yet we exist within a larger web,

396
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:47.680
interconnected, relying on each other,
depending on each other for our very existence,

397
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:52.240
and more than that, for meaning, for a sense of purpose.

398
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:56.839
On our best days, we can
provide that for each other. We take

399
00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:00.880
care of each other, and in
contrast, on our worst days, we

400
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:10.039
have the potential to destroy each other. Within that dynamic exists a powerful responsibility,

401
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:15.799
and it's within that vulnerable relationship that
our lives are played out. There's

402
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:22.359
a quote from Dostoyevsky coming from the
Brothers Karamazov. He who lies to himself

403
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.400
and listens to his own lies,
reaches a state in which he no longer

404
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:33.440
recognizes truth, either in himself or
in others. So he ceases to respect

405
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.759
both himself and others. Having ceased
to respect everyone, he stops loving,

406
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:42.599
and then, in the absence of
love, in order to occupy and divert

407
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:48.400
himself, he abandons himself to passions
and the gratification of coarse pleasures, until

408
00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:53.559
his vices bring him down to the
level of best reality, and all on

409
00:30:53.599 --> 00:31:02.240
account of his being constantly false.
I know the last time I said coming

410
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:06.720
up on Tips from the Dark Side, I suggested that we would take a

411
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:11.920
look at what happened to the bodies
of Bart and Krista Holderson after they were

412
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.839
brutally murdered. And I didn't plan
on this episode taking so long, but

413
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:19.920
that's just how it worked out.
But on the next stepisode, we'll discuss

414
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:33.480
the events of the night of July
first, twenty twenty one. I want

415
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.960
to thank all of our Patreon subscribers. You guys are the reason that this

416
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:42.160
show exists. We get a little
bit of money from ads, just enough

417
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:47.920
to make it worth running dynamic ads. I cannot wait for the day when

418
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.440
we can land a sponsor for a
host red ad, but for now,

419
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:57.920
I'm grateful for every listener and every
single supporter. We have multiple levels available

420
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:05.160
on Patreon dot slash Tapes from the
Dark Side. We have many rewards available,

421
00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:08.720
not the least of which is our
premium feed, offering you all of

422
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:14.880
our episodes ad free and in HD
three hundred and twenty kilobytes per second quality.

423
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:20.359
We're trying to do a bonus episode
every month and live streams on every

424
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.359
other Friday on our secret Instagram page. Come check it out. It takes

425
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:29.279
less than a minute to sign up. There are no obligations, you can

426
00:32:29.319 --> 00:32:32.720
cancel any time you'd like, and
for the next twenty four hours we're going

427
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:39.640
to be offering a one week free
trial. That's patreon dot com slash Tapes

428
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:46.440
from the Dark Side. As always, thank you to Augusta Trevor Orum for

429
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:54.079
his incredible music, and until next
time, try to enjoy the daylight.

430
00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:07.440
One last thing before we go today, a word from Smitty about a website

431
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:12.119
that he's a part of. It's
a community of veterans, first responders and

432
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:16.680
medical personnel where they can build relationships
with other people and share their experiences.

433
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:21.720
I checked out their discord and it's
a cool place. It really seems like

434
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:25.119
an authentic community of people who want
to help each other. Just go to

435
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:30.880
Forward Operatorsgroup dot com. All their
links are there, and I'm going to

436
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.319
let Smitty say a quick word about
it. So the discord's name is actually

437
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:39.759
Forward Operators Group and we are registered
five to one C and if you type

438
00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:44.359
into Google, we should be.
It's not the first tab, the second

439
00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:47.440
most popular tab, and we're a
veterans organization that's helping for verse responders as

440
00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:52.759
well help prevent suicide and just bring
a whole community together of people. It's

441
00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:59.119
called Forward Operators Group. Oh you
guys got a Twitch channel, you got

442
00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.559
others? It's cool. Did you
have found this or you just heavily involved

443
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:07.920
in one of the idiots that happened
to be around when it started and I

444
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.639
just wanted to take a shitty situation
and try to help as many people as

445
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:15.480
possible. Nice. That's cool,
man, that's awesome. Oh yeah,

446
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:19.119
I'm sure this is you know,
you hear this a lot, but I

447
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:23.239
appreciate your service. Thank you.
You're welcome. And this is the first

448
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:31.119
link on Google and it is Forward
Operatorsgroup dot com. And that's for Veterans

449
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:38.760
three charity. It's for veterans first
responders in military personnel to hang outs and

450
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:44.840
see everyone. Yeah, hang out, support each other, game together because

451
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:50.119
only us, the ones who actually
go through all the suffering, know how

452
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:52.519
to take care of each other.
Yeah, exactly, that makes sense.

453
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:55.920
Cool man. Well, thank you, Smitty. I appreciate you. Man

454
00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:07.360
a dark side God, God,
I miss you. Let mess you m

455
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:16.079
next week. I'm going next weekend. I'm going to go pick up stuff

456
00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:21.639
from your house. Okay, is
there anything your mom made you like?

457
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:25.400
I know you have a lot of
hide blankets. She never baby one.

458
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:37.280
Okay, Uh, yeah, it's
that it's a haunted house and then a

459
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:42.599
pirate ship. I remember the haunted
mansion in the pirate ship. M hm,

460
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:50.079
I remember. Yeah, it's hard
to think of everything that I know.

461
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:53.920
Your mom. Uh one of her
space heaters or her space heater got

462
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:59.760
stolen. I believe I had a
tower space heater in my room. It's

463
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:12.000
like a Honeywell, yeah, I
remember, okay, there maybe the millennium

464
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.199
falcon. Oh yeah, it's funny. I've taken that anyway, But I

465
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:21.199
worked hard for that one. I
appreciate it. Yeah, you remember,

466
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:24.920
but a year ago today is when
we made hieros. When you finishing more

467
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:30.039
than this? Was that a year
ago today? Yeah? I was thinking

468
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:35.639
too much about trap menories. I
thought that was in the winter. No,

469
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:43.000
it was for what's it called the
Labor Day weekend? Oh okay,

470
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:50.000
it was just a dance fall.
Yeah, it was pretty chilly, mm

471
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:58.960
hmm. What else? Oh yeah, just remember, my brother's gonna have

472
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:05.960
his own opinion of everything. I
know. I'm just gonna say I want

473
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.199
to make sure they least get the
stuff that I brought you back. And

474
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:13.039
then, like I told him,
I got like some knickknacks and stuff.

475
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:17.280
So I think he knows. But
if he's donating it anyways, I'll be

476
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:20.880
like, well, may I have
this, like since you're getting rid of

477
00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:23.519
it anyway. Oh, he's getting
rid of all of my things. Well,

478
00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:29.079
I don't know, that's what I'm
assuming that. I have no idea.

479
00:37:29.880 --> 00:37:34.320
Oh okay, that's a bummer.
Well, don't get sad. I

480
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:42.639
have no idea yet. I'm just
grabbing what I can now just in case.

481
00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:47.159
But I don't have any idea.
Okay, yeah, I'm just preparing

482
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:54.280
for the worst because that's what that's
me. Wanders, do I stay? I understand