S11, Chapter 7: Tarkov

0:00 This is Tapes from the Dark Side, and we're going to run one quick ad before the episode begins. Just fast forward at about thirty seconds if you want to skip it. Tapes from the Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Listener discretion is advised. Tarkov is located in a brutal, cold and unforgiving climate. It's in the Norvinsk region of northwestern Russia, what's called a special economic zone. At some points in the mid twenty and tens, a major political scandal implicated a corrupt corporation, which resulted in the near total collapse of the local economy, and just a few months later the area erupted into an intense armed conflict that is ongoing to this day. Among those involved are Russian troops, United Nations peacekeepers, and a number of private military contractors.

1:11 Chandler Holderson fought in Tarkov alongside one of his best friends, Andrew Smith, who goes by the name Smitty. Though there's one thing about Tarkov that you need to know, you won't find it on any real world map. That's because it exists only in a fictional world of a hyper realistic military shooting game. Called Escape from Tarkov. Just like in the real world, in Tarkov, each item you take into the battlefield can greatly affect your survival. You must plan meticulously to have enough food and water to survive each battle. How much gear you take affects your stamina and speed. There are no on screen map displays, and you have to rely on your own instinct and sense of direction. You don't even get a meter that shows how many bullets are left in your gun, you have to manually check. In the vast world of gaming, Tarkov has crafted specifically for those seeking a unique experience that closely mirrors real life. And while this may seem like a fairly small niche, despite releasing all the way back in twenty sixteen, nearly a decade ago, the game still averages well over one hundred thousand players online daily. In fact, if I check right now on activeplayer dot io, there are currently sixty one thousand players online at this very moment, and in the last thirty days

2:43 the game has averaged six hundred and eighty thousand daily players. It's on this digital frontier that Chandler Holderson and Andrew Smith became friends. Andrew was deployed in Germany at the time on assignment the United States military, and he just so happened to be logged in at the same time when Chandler, who was half a world away, was also online. On the battlefield of Tarkov, Chandler and Andrew would escape together from the stresses of monotony of everyday life to a virtual hellescape where they would fight side by side for a rush of adrenaline. In that momentary feeling of victory. Smitty became close friends with Chandler. In fact, they became best friends. They talked almost every day on Discord the game together, shared about their life, and one day would even meet in person, further strengthening their bond. I found Andrew Smith's Discord name and tracked him down in a group that he was active in. From there, I reached out and asked if he would be willing to talk with me, and to my surprise, he was. After all, who would know him better than his best friend, and so we set a time to talk. Hello, Hey, can you hear me? Yeah? I opened up. Bruh, Hey, what's going on man? Thanks for making the time, Yeah, no problem. I rolled three joints because I knew there was gonna be some shit, so I might as well get prepared for it. That's actually

4:15 a question I had for you. Can you tell me a little bit about Germany? Like how long you were stationed there? And did you meet Chaz while you were over there? Had you already met him online before that? He had met him when I was stationed over in Germany? Okay? Did you guys meet in Tarkov or was it another game? Or that was Arma three? Arma three? Okay? I've never played either of those games. But is Arma similar to Tarkov? Or no? Okay? So it's either you go and spun into a world and you hunt for gears and then you kill people, or you go and spun into a world kill zombies in hunt for gear and still end up killing people. It's one of the same concept, same shit, like as aggressive as having to hunt for Shade, so much easier just fucking joining the world right quick? Okay? So Arma is a little more casual. Maybe yeah, arm a military stimulator. It's really casual gameplay. It's not really for long time progression play because it's really boring after you played for like a week or two. Okay, because it's the same shit over and over again. Chaz's favorite thing was to fucking hunt players while he was flying around in an F thirty five in Arma three. Okay, is that to like troll them or is that just a strategy to win the game or something, or I don't know. I wonder if it was just been a aggression thinking back on it, because he would go into or

5:45 he would make him This was before I was close friends with him, but like actually friends with them. He would put himself into invisible mode to pretend he wasn't actually on the server, and you would go around and do whatever should, pretend to be a different character killing people on the server. That's way he wouldn't get bothered by all the friends that he was just straight up murdering there and doing all sorts of other shit. Interesting, is invisible mode? Is that like a cheat or a hack or something. No, he wouldn't be invisible. He would just seem profile to invisible. So that way you can track down if someone was online, Like the only way you could tell if you were a fude enough. So like for me, for example, like the only reason I knew was because I shift to have seen his profile. I tro backtracked into my friend's list and seeing he was offline, I was like, oh, that makes sense, and you guys could talk to each other. Was it through discord or through the game that you could chat during playing or something? We would chat in the game and then we would chat on discord over time. Do you remember like how you first became friends. I had made friends with one of his friends, which was another admin on the server at the time, which because they were both abins, they were friends together. Oh so it's kind of like a friend of a friend situation, and we just got really close. When Andrew, or as we know in Smitty, returned from Germany, he made a plan to visit his friend in person for the first time. This little impromptu road trip would unwittingly set into motion a series of events that would end in abject tragedy and

7:23 would also lead to Smitty at the witness stand in front of a packed courtroom in a murder trial. You see, during his trip to Wisconsin, Smitty brought with him a gift for his friend, what to most would probably seem like an unusual gift, but for a military man and a gun enthusiast, it didn't seem strange at all. It was Chaz's favorite gun in the Tarkau video game, except in real life an SKS semi automatic rifle, the same gun that Jazz would he use to slaughter his mother and father. Perfect, Good afternoon, stir. Could you please state your name and then spell it out so everyone who's taking notes just knows how it's spelled. Andrew Smith?

8:11 And how do you spell it? Alpha, November, delta, romeo, echo, whiskey. And your last name is Smith, common spelling. And how old are you, sir? Twenty two? Sir? And what area of the country do you live in? Kansas? Sir? Do you know someone by the name of Chandler Holderson? Yes, sir. How did you meet Chamler Holderson playing video games while the station in Germany? Sir? And did you see mister Holderson in the courtroom here today? Yes, sir. All right, before it's going to happen here is the judge is going to give some instructions, and I'm going to ask you where he is. So wait one second. I would ask everyone who's not in the jury box to lower their masks for just a short moment so that all faces are observed by the witness you can replace your masks. Thank you. Did you see mister Holderson here in the courtroom, yes, sir, you tell me where he's sitting and kind of what he's wearing over on the right, sir, in his suit, sir' talk a little bit about I guess that time period in which you met mister Halderson. You said you were stationed over in Germany, Yes, sir. Were you in the military, yes, sir. What branch army, sir? And where in Germany were you stationed on? Boxer?

9:13 And where about is that middle of BF sir? Okay? And how did you meet someone who lived here in Wisconsin while you were in Germany? Playing video games on Armor three server? Sir? And what type of video games were you playing? Mostly FBS, sir. What type of game is that so go around complete objectives and capture certain scenarios, sir? Is a shooting game, yes, sir. Did you talk to him a lot? Yes, sir. Did you develop a friendship? Yes, sir, if you just had to give us a general overview. How often would you play video games with Chamar online? Almost every day, sir. At some point you end up here back coming back to the United States, Yes, sir, military service was over something like that, Okay. At any point where you were in the military toward the end of your service, did you suffer an injury yourself? Yes, sir, I was in Germany and I was coming off the fifty Cow range in a German told our Humby and I got in a Humby wreck. So I slammed my forehead on a hard side wall of the vehicle. Unfortunately, though, you got a head injury, essentially, sir. Okay. After you moved back to Wisconsin or to the United States, did your frequency of playing video games, and mister Holderson, did it increase decrease? Say the same increase, sir, I was in the same time zone, okay, And would you continue to play the same types of games? Yes, sir, all right. Is there any specific weapons that mister Holderson liked what he's playing these games? It really depends on what

10:46 we were playing on Tarkov or Escape from Tarkovs, what's the game was called. It would range for realistically to whatever we could find inside the video game, because not everything was necessarily easily to collect. But the scas was certainly a weapon that was fun to use and talk of and was something that I've had grown interest in as well. Okay, and around this time after you came back to the United States, did you learn anything more about where mister Halderson was in life? Had jobs changed, school changed, or was things the same for him? Essentially, what I understood was he was still going to college and he at some point had gone back to Windsor Or I think it's called Windsor and had started working for some company installing solar panels that are working on contracts for solar panels. Okay, at some point you decided to come visit Chandler, Yes, sir? Whatabouts was that sometime during I think it was June, sir of this past year. Yes, in generally, just how did that come about? Did he ask me to come up?

11:48 Did you decide to come up? So it was one of those last minute decisions, des I was I be able to make her. So my wife had ended up going to visit family in Ohio and she was going to be gone for two weeks. So I went and looked at how many points I had I was able to take off work, and I went and caught off work that day so I could come up and have a weekend with driving up there and then spending two days with him, Sir, had you ever been to Wisconsin before? No, sir, it's a long drive up here. No shit, Yes, sir, it's okay. So everyone slips up. I'm showing you what's been marked in this case as exhibit number three hundred and ninety two. Is that you and Sham are up here? Yes, sir, all right, and i'll just move three ninety two in evidence. I'll just show it to the jury. If that's okay, judge any objection it's received. You may publish where'd you stay when you were up here with mister Halderson in their family home in the basement? Sir? Did you meet his parents? Yes, sir, okay, when you were up here? Kind of things? Did you do for fun? Where'd you go? So?

12:54 We went swimming at some river at some point, and then we went and drove around to the different department stores. Department stores, and we're looking at weapons and all that. So we went to Cabela's. We went to I think it was I want to say it was a bass prop, but that doesn't sound right. I know. We went to Gander Mountain and then we went to like one or two other places, but I can't remember what they were. When you visited Wisconsinacy Chandeler, you brought him a gift, Yes, sir, what did you bring him? I brought him a twenty inch barrel sks. How did you acquire this gun? So? I had purchased it on a gun broker, and I went had it sent to my fl and then I went and sat in the fl until I went and did the FL transfer. So I proached it initially because I really thought like, oh, well, I like in the video game, I might like it in real life. And then I fired it. It sat in my safe and then I never touched it again, and then it just dawn to me like, well, I'm going to give it to someone who might actually appreciate this weapon and take care of it and all that. So I ended up giving it to Chandler as a gift. Okay, you like guns, you didn't particularly love this gun, No, sir. I'm going to show you what's been Marx is Exhibit number three and ninety one. You know what that document is, yes, sir, it's a fil transfer paperwork, sir. And you've been saying the phrase FFL correct. Yes, what does that mean that's a federal firearms license holder, meaning someone who's licensed to sell firearms and fills out paper and does the correct background checks and such. Got it a move

14:26 three nine one in evidence? No, Objeckson, it is received. This document has your signature on it and the person who sold it their signature, correct, yes, sir. And it has the serial number of the weapon that you purchased, yes, sir, got it. Now, when you gave the gun to Chance, did he pay you for it? No, sir, it was a gift, yes, sir. Did you document in any way transferring that gun to him? Yes, sir. How did you choose? Did you fill out paperwork like this? I took his photo ID that the state issued him, and I took it right next to the serial number, annotating that this was me giving this weapon to this individual, so that way, if anything like this would occur, that it wouldn't necessarily come back to me. Okay, it was important to you to document that most times, it is yes, okay. Had Chandler asked you for this gun or was this just your idea? I think he had at one point asked for it as a joke, but mostly it was my idea. Sir, okay, you brought him other things that go with the gun? Yes, sir? What type of things? So? I had brought him a steel canister that had contained roughly four hundred and eighty rounds of seven sixty two by thirty nine steelcase two lamo, And is that the ammunition that goes with that weapon? Yes, sir. We'll take a quick break and when we come back. How did Chandler react when you gave him the gun? Elio was happy? Don't go anywhere? How did Chandler react when you gave him the gun? Elio was happy? What do you mean? But how do you know he was happier? How do you how do you know that? Because he had a big smile on his face when I had given it to him as a gift. Were you aware whether his parents that he was living with

16:03 were gun people or wanted guns in their home? As far as I knew that or what I was explained by Chandler was that his parents understood the reason of why fire arms exist in this world, and not that they necessarily support having them, but they're helpful in situations. Sure, to your knowledge, to Chandler have any guns? As far as I knew. He told me that he had owned a AR fifteen with a with a barrel extension that had to be voted on or something like that. It was kind of looked like sixteen almost. Did you ever see that gun? He had showed me a picture of it on the app called Discord, but I don't have any documentation of that. When you were here in Wisconsin. Did you ever see any guns in the Holderson house? I think I asked about it, but I think he said that they had it at the wherever their cabin was. What did you do with What did Chandler do with the gun? Were you able to figure out where he put it in the house? Yeah? He had initially, so if you would walk down the fly stirs in the basement, you would look left there. It was like a little woodpile, and he had stuck it in the middle section there because it was I understood that they might not be happy about having this firearm. So, but he had told me he was going to be moving soon to do a career in SpaceX in Florida, so he was just going to take it with him and move out there with it. Were there any magazines that came with the gun? Yes, sir, three three and those all went with that gun? Yes, sir? How did were they loaded when you gave them to them? Not initially, sir? How did they become loaded? I think we were bullshitting

17:33 with the magazine, sir, and both of us and were like he was asked me how to load it, So I was like, oh, you just and I was showing him how to pack the magazine. Sure, aside from and I think we've got it. But aside from the gun, that the three magazines, the ammo can and then the four hundred some rounds of ammunition, was there anything else related to the gun that you gave the Chamdler, The optic that came on the weapon, the site if for most people, if people aren't gun people, what's an opt it's the same thing kind essentially. Did you discuss with Chandler when you gave him the weapon in June of this past year, anything more about what he was going to do with it other than I think you said he was going to move to Florida with his new job. Anything else did you did you discuss? Was he gonna go hunting? Anything like that? I don't believe. So, sir, did you find out at some point that Chammer's parents were missing. Yes, sir, how did you find out? It was shortly after the fourth July, when I had came back from Texas from visiting my other buddy. He had gave me a sort of not hysterical per se, but a pretty upsetting call that his parents hadn't got back to him or he hadn't seen them.

18:44 Sure, And then the cadence of things was this was after the head injury. Yes, sir. Did Chammer tell you anything about the head injury in terms of specifics about what was going to happen? Or he told me that he would have to wear a neck brace and that they were supposed to drill a hole in his head or something like that to alleviate sort of pressure. Okay, did you talk to Chandler about his parents being missing? Yes, sir, tell me about those conversations. Well, day one when he told us, because he had told me and my friend that he's friends with that I visited when I was down in Texas, he told us that they had been missing. So we both suggested to him that, hey, if this is really a big concern for you, you might want to contact law enforcement immediately. Okay, what did Chandler say to that? He said, well, they might they might turn up, so I'll just wait a few days, and so it goes. After that conversation. Do you recall having any other conversations with Chandler about his parents being missing? I just think talking about how or where they could have end up it or what was going on with the situation at some point, I'm sure, and obviously now you're aware that Chandler was arrested for for what happened. Yes, sir, you began having to have some conversations with law enforcement because a gun that was found very close to bart Alderson, Chandler's father, was that gun that we just showed you, and so law enforcement started talking to you, right, Yes, well, I'd reach out to them immediately upon figuring out that he had been arrested.

20:15 You've been cooperative with law enforcement the whole time, haven't you. I'm not going to be a broken piece of glasser, meaning you'll help if you need to. Yes, okay. The police in fact visited you down in your where you live at some point. Yes, sir, you, when asked, had given them access to things like bank records or your phone and things of that sort, yes, sir, and you've provided photographs whenever you could. Yes, sir, why was that important to you to assist? Well, to put it blantly, sir, I served in the army and I'm not going to get fucked for something that I didn't do. Next up is the cross examination, and I have to warn you it's not all that interesting, but it's short, and it's one of the only times in the trial that the defense chooses to cross examine the witness, and for that alone, I think it's interesting. But not only that. You can tell that Smitty is a little bit frazzled by the defense's questions, and there's a moment at the very end that well, you'll just have to hear. Thank you, sir. Cross examination. Good afternoon, mister Smith. Good new ma'am.

21:26 I'd like to first ask you a few questions about that SKS that you purchased. Is it correct that you purchased that initially for yourself? Yes, sir or ma'am, sorry you. Is it fair to say you're interested in guns in firearms, yes, ma'am. You said you went and fired that SKS maybe twenty times. I had shot at once and put twenty rounds to them the rifle itself through my hands, ma'am. After that you decided it wasn't that appealing to you, No, ma'am, just too much of kick, too much of anything that didn't make me happy about the weapon. What do you mean by too much kick? So each caliber of weapon or bullet will fire x amount of powder through it. So, for example, the SCS which shoots seven sixty two by three nine eight or whatever it is in Russia, it shoots a bigger payload of powder versus five five six lash two two three, which shoots up twenty seven grains of powder. So it's not as much kick, but we can still put enough firepower down range. Why does the kick make it unappealing to you? Because if I had to defend my family from a home intruder, I think five to five six is going to be a lot easier and a lot faster for me to react with sen a seven to sixty two by three nine rounds. Compared to other guns or firearms that you've used, the SKS is somewhat louder than similar type fire arms.

23:00 Correct, not necessarily, it depends. It really depends on a lot of things alone. Where the location is if you're in a let's say you're s unit in here, it's going to be loud as help because there's all the encasing around you. If you're outside, it's going to be not as loud, but it's still going to be pretty loud. Louder than a handgun, not necessarily under similar circumstances. Louder than a handgun possibly. Yes. Now, when you gifted this SKS to mister Helderson, you talked about this procedure you use with taking a photo of someone's driver's license there with the serial number from the firearm yesterre that that's not something you only have done with mister Helderson. It's something you've done anytime you've sold, transferred, or gifted firearms.

23:59 Correct, yes, ma'am. And you've done that several times, yes, ma'am. How many depends on a lot of things. If I have so, I can have an air fifteen that I'll buy and I'll build it, and then it'll sit in my safe for whatever reason for a long time, and then I can. You're like, oh, okay, well go and sell it. But as for how many I've sold, that's none of your business. Frankly, Okay, that's really all I have. Thank you, any redirect, may this wouldness be excused and released? Yes, thank you, sir, have a good guest of your day. Thank you.

24:45 So what did you guys do besides go to the river? Did you guys like play video games together? When? Actually I think when I was up there because I didn't have a laptop at the time, I was fucking I was up there, and we were just driving around and bullshitting, eating and like fucking off at random stores. You know what I mean, the stupid that you do when you don't got anything better to do. Did you ever feel like he was a pathological liar or did you ever have did you ever catch him in a lie or something like that? No, I don't think so, Okay, interesting, Like I'm torn, honestly, Like I'm torn between one of my best friend back in my life because he was my best fucking friend. But I don't fucking forgive him for what he did. But like, you know what I mean, Yeah, it's weird. It's really fucking weird to describe. Yeah, I can imagine, yeah, fucked up down, Like, uh yeah, it's really fucked up. And I still fucking feel absolutely shit. Before it every single day, Like, what do you feel shitty about, like the fact that I somehow played a part in the fucking evil that took place he intended to happen, Right, It's not

26:17 like I fucking wanted him to go out and go, oh do this, Like no for the fucking gift, because I thought he was my actual friend. I was fucking happy to have a real friend who actually liked me. Yeah. Yeah, it's fucked up. So do you think he is just some kind of psychopath that doesn't really have human emotions, or I mean, he has emotions, but it's a little bit different. Yeah, I didn't notice one thing when I went and was visiting them. I remember I had dunked him under the water instead of like you know, as a friend would do, get up and get not necessarily pissed, but he would fucking around.

27:00 He got up and he acted like, huh, well, I guess I was taking a while to do that. And I stands out now, like that's kind of strange. What do you you said taking a while to do that? What do you mean we were fucking swimming in that river that he fucking apparently dumbed body parts around? Oh wow? It was that wisconstant or uh yeah, the wherever river the right right, and you dunked him and he said and then he came up and he he just like huh, well, I guess I was taking some or too long to do that, like I like laugh haha, like no weird smile, and it was just like hmmm, I don't know how I feel about this, you know what I mean? Looking back at it's kind of strange, right, It's just kind of like a weird vibe moment. It seemed like he had like a sense of humor. It was kind of a he was a great it's a great dry sense of humor, like a fucking around and shit, you know what I mean. But like right, I don't understand what the mental disconnect was. As I said before, I spent a little bit of time going back and forth with Smitty on Discord setting up this interview, and one message he sent me stuck with me just as much as anything he said in person.

28:21 Quote, I don't know why he did what he did, and I honestly wish I could talk to him in person and just know why I loved him. He was my best friend and I would do anything to have helped him do the right thing. But I have nightmares and I so cry thinking about my friend and why you decided to do this shit. There are eight billion people in the world today, around four hundred thousand people born each day. It's staggering to think about we consider our place in this world. It's easy to fall into the trap of starting to think that your individual life is so minuscule that it doesn't matter. But if there's anything that true crime teaches us, it's that it does when you skip a rock across a pond that still water bows and then ripples outwards. In that one brief moment that that rock breaks the surface tension of the water, it causes a ripple that can echo all the way to the shoreline. No life exists in a vacuum, each soul perhaps an individual thread. Yet we exist within a larger web, interconnected, relying on each other, depending on each other for our very existence, and more than that, for meaning, for a sense of purpose.

29:52 On our best days, we can provide that for each other. We take care of each other, and in contrast, on our worst days, we have the potential to destroy each other. Within that dynamic exists a powerful responsibility, and it's within that vulnerable relationship that our lives are played out. There's a quote from Dostoyevsky coming from the Brothers Karamazov. He who lies to himself and listens to his own lies, reaches a state in which he no longer recognizes truth, either in himself or in others. So he ceases to respect both himself and others. Having ceased to respect everyone, he stops loving, and then, in the absence of love, in order to occupy and divert himself, he abandons himself to passions and the gratification of coarse pleasures, until his vices bring him down to the level of best reality, and all on account of his being constantly false. I know the last time I said coming up on Tips from the Dark Side, I suggested that we would take a look at what happened to the bodies of Bart and Krista Holderson after they were brutally murdered. And I didn't plan on this episode taking so long, but that's just how it worked out. But on the next stepisode, we'll discuss the events of the night of July first, twenty twenty one. I want

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33:01 One last thing before we go today, a word from Smitty about a website that he's a part of. It's a community of veterans, first responders and medical personnel where they can build relationships with other people and share their experiences. I checked out their discord and it's a cool place. It really seems like an authentic community of people who want to help each other. Just go to Forward Operatorsgroup dot com. All their links are there, and I'm going to let Smitty say a quick word about it. So the discord's name is actually Forward Operators Group and we are registered five to one C and if you type into Google, we should be. It's not the first tab, the second most popular tab, and we're a veterans organization that's helping for verse responders as well help prevent suicide and just bring a whole community together of people. It's called Forward Operators Group. Oh you guys got a Twitch channel, you got others? It's cool. Did you have found this or you just heavily involved in one of the idiots that happened to be around when it started and I just wanted to take a shitty situation and try to help as many people as possible. Nice. That's cool, man, that's awesome. Oh yeah, I'm sure this is you know, you hear this a lot, but I appreciate your service. Thank you. You're welcome. And this is the first link on Google and it is Forward Operatorsgroup dot com. And that's for Veterans three charity. It's for veterans first responders in military personnel to hang outs and

34:38 see everyone. Yeah, hang out, support each other, game together because only us, the ones who actually go through all the suffering, know how to take care of each other. Yeah, exactly, that makes sense. Cool man. Well, thank you, Smitty. I appreciate you. Man a dark side God, God, I miss you. Let mess you m next week. I'm going next weekend. I'm going to go pick up stuff from your house. Okay, is there anything your mom made you like?

35:21 I know you have a lot of hide blankets. She never baby one. Okay, Uh, yeah, it's that it's a haunted house and then a pirate ship. I remember the haunted mansion in the pirate ship. M hm, I remember. Yeah, it's hard to think of everything that I know. Your mom. Uh one of her space heaters or her space heater got stolen. I believe I had a tower space heater in my room. It's like a Honeywell, yeah, I remember, okay, there maybe the millennium falcon. Oh yeah, it's funny. I've taken that anyway, But I worked hard for that one. I appreciate it. Yeah, you remember, but a year ago today is when we made hieros. When you finishing more than this? Was that a year ago today? Yeah? I was thinking too much about trap menories. I thought that was in the winter. No, it was for what's it called the Labor Day weekend? Oh okay, it was just a dance fall. Yeah, it was pretty chilly, mm hmm. What else? Oh yeah, just remember, my brother's gonna have

36:58 his own opinion of everything. I know. I'm just gonna say I want to make sure they least get the stuff that I brought you back. And then, like I told him, I got like some knickknacks and stuff. So I think he knows. But if he's donating it anyways, I'll be like, well, may I have this, like since you're getting rid of it anyway. Oh, he's getting rid of all of my things. Well, I don't know, that's what I'm assuming that. I have no idea. Oh okay, that's a bummer. Well, don't get sad. I have no idea yet. I'm just grabbing what I can now just in case.

37:42 But I don't have any idea. Okay, yeah, I'm just preparing for the worst because that's what that's me. Wanders, do I stay? I understand