S5, AFTERSHOW: The Execution of Daniel Shaver w/ Bob Motta

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I am so excited to finally share
with you the talk I had just a

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few days ago with Bob Mada of
the podcast Defense Diaries. Bob is a

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defense attorney by trade and has been
converted into a true crime podcaster. His

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show is excellent, and we'll tell
you a little bit about it in a

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second, but in this episode we
get into his opinion about the effectiveness of

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the prosecution in the Daniel Shaver case
with the second degree murder trial of Mitch

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Brailsford. We also dive into some
of the later stuff in that season,

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including a little bit about Richard Elligant
and his lawyer, and finally we go

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off the rails and talk about aliens, future tech chat GPT, and our

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personal paranormal experiences. If you're listening
to this on Patreon, you're going to

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get the full two hour long conversation. If you're listening on the main feed,

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I've cut out that extraneous stuff,
But if you want to hear the

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full unedited interview, join us on
Patreon or Apple Plus. And a huge

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thank you to everyone who supports us
now. Bob's show, called Defense Diaries,

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is a serialized show just like ours, where each season he dives into

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a case. In his first case
is all about John Wayne Gacy. You

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see, Bob's father was the defense
attorney for John Wayne Casey and gifted Bob

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a collection of cassette tapes that contain
pre trial interviews with Gaysey that no one

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had ever heard before. Now you
can turn on Netflix or Hulu and listen

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to the same old story about Casey
that you've heard a hundred times, or

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you can listen to Defense Diaries season
one and hear the real story about Gaysey

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that you can't get anywhere else.
So after you hear this interview, please

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go search Defensive Diaries in download Bob's
podcast and listen to season one and then

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listen to all the other seasons because
you're gonna want to. I had an

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absolute blast talking with Bob. I
hope to have him back again soon.

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And now the show The Dark Side
contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Goddess

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listener discretion is advised. Yeah,
welcome to the Tapes from the dark Side

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after show. My guest today is
Bob Mada of Defense Diaries. He is

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a defense attorney and has an amazing
podcast. Thanks for joining us, Bob.

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Thanks tz Man I'm excited to be
here with you. I mean,

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we've been talking I don't know,
maybe a year and a half about doing

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this, so it's a long overdue. I'm excited to do this with you,

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man. Yeah. Man, it
has been a while, hasn't it.

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It's been a while. Man,
it's our first official meetings. It

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is. Yeah, it is.
You're you're like literally one of my first

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podcast friends, you know, one
of the guys that reached out too early

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and we had a pretty nice little
connection, create a little friendship, and

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you know, we've talked about doing
stuff for a long time. So finally

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it's it's arrived. It has come. The time has come, the time

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has come, and I'm I'm excited
to do it. Yeah. Thanks man,

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I'm And I know the people on
Patreon have been saying they're they're really

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interested in hearing your take on some
of this Daniel Shaver stuff because you know,

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I have my amateur podcaster take of
it, but there's a lot of

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the legal ins and outs that you
know, get your get your opinion on,

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and I think it'll be interesting.
Yeah, you know, man,

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I mean I listened to Season five
was great, by the way, like

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all of them are and I'm you
know, I am. I'm a big

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fan of your show. Man.
You're a super smart guy, which is

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always that is the most important thing
to me with any podcast I listened to

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that, I'm listening to somebody who's
bright, which you certainly qualify under that

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category. So you know, as
always, Uh, you know, I'm

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sucked in immediately with every season you've
ever done, Like first three minutes,

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I'm like, and I'm like,
I'm in. So there's no exception to

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that. Yeah, no, And
I mean it, dude, you're I

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love your pod. Um. Yeah, you know, obviously I knew about

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this case, um, you know, just having heard about it, but

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obviously I was not in depth like
I was after after I listened to the

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season, so you know, and
it's like, man, just sitting there

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listening to that shit like that,
you know that whenever it was two minutes

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in time or you know, he's
just barking those orders. But I'm jumping

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ahead, man, Yeah, no, I'm yeah, let's let's dive into

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this because I'm you know, it's
it's hard to listen to that season and

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not walk away infuriated. You know, It's just kind of the way it

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played out, um, you know, at least from the criminal side of

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it. Yeah, No, definitely, it was. It definitely got my

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blood pumping the first time I saw
that video, and it was it's all

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I mean, the first time you
see it is pretty surreal, uh,

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because it's crazy. I mean,
it's like it's like watching a snuff video

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exactly. No bullshit, man,
I mean I like, you know,

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I've seen, you know, obviously
hundreds of videos of you know, young

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black man getting you know, shot
down by police, and you know,

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it's it's it was different in the
sense that, you know, typically those

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happened out outdoors. You know,
there's some kind of extenuating circumstances that are

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going on, and this was just
different just because of you know, the

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prone position this kid was in and
you know, just the you know,

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the guy has his weapon trained on
him. Just bart well, let's get

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into it, man. Yeah,
it's it was, yeah, it's it's

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it was shocking to the conscience.
Man. Like when I first thought it

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as like, holy shit, I
can't believe what I'm seeing. I couldn't

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believe it. I don't know that
I'd ever seen anything like it. Yeah.

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Yeah, and I've seen like like
the LaQuan McDonald thing here in Chicago

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were you know, the cop was
this Van Dyke cop who put sixteen rounds

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into this kid with the claim that
the kid had a knife in the kid

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of course not having knife, and
he just mows him down. You know.

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It's like that kind of stuff.
You know, when when when that

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becomes the norm? Yeah, it's
problem, a problem, yeah, you

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know. And so yeah, so
let's dive in. Well, the first

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thing I had for us to talk
about, which relates a lot back to

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what we were just discussing with the
kind of you say, the shocking nature

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of when you first see it,
was the prosecutions push to not release the

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body cam footage pre trial. Um, they thought that it could lead to

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mistrial if in selecting the jury,
them not being able to find people who

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I guess hadn't seen the video.
Um, and then if maybe somebody lied

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and then they get him in the
jury pool. Uh, that seems And

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I mean this gets into a larger
discussion that I have questions about as far

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as um having a neutral prosecution.
I mean, on the surface, that

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makes sense to me, but there's
a lot of things I take issue with

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as far as it seems like,
um, it seems like we've we have

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seen police videos that have been released
to the public before trials. Um.

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I just wanted to kind of get
your take on that and if if that

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is yeah, yeah, just what's
what she said? So well? I

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mean, first and foremost, when
like the concept of bodycams became a thing,

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you know, the underlying premise was
transparency, so we can see what

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the hell these guys are doing,
these guys and gals are doing when they're

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out there and these these things happen
where somebody ends up dead, you know,

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at the hands of the police,
and you know, so that that

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transparency when they're refusing to release the
bodycam footage and look, I mean the

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reality is that they can always make
some kind of argument that makes sense as

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to why they shouldn't be releasing it. I mean, you know, yeah,

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it could taint a jury pool,
but is it more likely than not

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that they wouldn't be able to win
panel. I mean, it's the same

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shit that every defendant goes through any
kind of you know, even relatively high

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profile case. It's you know,
the challenge is always can we you know,

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can we find a you know,
a jury that hasn't been tainted and

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you know, isn't biased and like
so that argument just falls on deaf ears

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with me because I've been dealing with
that shit for twenty years as a criminal

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defense attorney. You know. It's
like it's like the Anthony Garcia thing,

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which is what we're doing our second
season. I was a fucking nightmare.

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You know. They tried my guy
in the press for three years. It

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took three years for the case to
get to trial. And there was an

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article in the paper from a lackey
of the state that was getting leaked information

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like every day, so you know, and and we lost our motion for

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a change of venue, so we
were stuck in that county. So I

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knew because I filed my change of
venue early. You know, like we

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had hired a polling company to pull
the citizens of Douglas County to see if

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they had reached a conclusion, like
it had they heard of the case,

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if they had heard of the case, they reached, you know, a

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conclusion as to innocence or guilt,
and they had a majority of them that

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the numbers were shocking. It's like, there's no way we should have lawed.

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There's no way that should have been
in that county. It's like in

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a in a case like that,
it's like, I can't do it.

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It's like the Idaho fourth thing.
There's no way that's going to be in

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in uh Letah County. And just
like you know, I was in Delphi,

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you know last week, you know, for that hearing, and the

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main ring that was going was the
change of venue. And you know,

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because the reality well I'll digress there
because it's I'll do the same shit you

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well, I'll go into a rabbit
hole about the you know, just kind

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of the philosophical side of it all. So my estimation is and it's a

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state by state thing, you know, like in terms of like there's laws

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that are written about them having to
release the body camp footage prior to trial.

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You know, like a lot of
states have laws protecting the law enforcement

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side, which I know is something
we're going to kind of dig into a

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little bit because there's so many conflicts, you know, when you're dealing with

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a case like this, because it's
unusual to have the cop is the defendant

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exactly, you know what I mean, you know what I'm saying. So

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and it's like and I know We're
going to dive into that subject in depth

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a little bit in a little bit, but you know, it's all intertwined,

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you know, and ultimately, you
know, like to me, the

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more compelling argument for not releasing video
is to at least from their side,

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you know, I think that they
should release everything because fuck them, you

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know, like a transparency is all
that matters. We have a right as

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a citizens who are the ones that
are paying their salaries to know what they're

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doing out there, especially in light
of the amount of power that they have

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with that gun in that badge.
You know, if you've listened to my

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pot at all, you know,
I am. You know. There's good

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cops out there, there are,
you know, and it's a thankless job.

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And I I you know, I
get that in there. We need

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them. That being said, there
are a bunch of shitty cops, you

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know, and it's it's an extreme
amount of power that they have. And

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you know, so I'm always questioning
is the training enough, Is the psychological

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evaluation prior to hiring being done properly? Is it enough? You know,

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because you can't have like the jag
Off bully that was in high school that

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was beating everybody's ass then turning into
a cop because you know what, that

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guy's still the jagoff bully that he
was and h school beating everybody's asking up.

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Now he's got a gun in a
badge. Yeah, just unchecked power.

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Um. You know, in a
lot of times, that's who cops

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are, you know, I mean, that's you know, and a lot

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and again I'm not trying to generalize
cops. I I have cop friends.

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I respect the hell out of good
cops and what they do, you know.

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But just like any profession, there's
bad eggs, you know, and

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in that you know, in that
profession, when a bad egg kind of

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exposes themselves, that usually is resulting
in death. That's that's one of the

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problems. So, um, you
know, as far as the video getting

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released, you know, the civil
unrest angle would be the angle if I'm

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you know, somebody working for the
Mayor's office of Chicago. That's why I'm

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not wanting it released, you know, like Laqwan McDonald's was not released until

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trial either, you know, And
that was the position they took. They

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said, well, look, you
know, we simply are not in a

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position to want to release this video. They knew it was shocking. You

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know, they knew that this kid
was unarmed and you got shot sixteen times,

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and you know that's it's going to
upset people, and people are going

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to take the streets, you know, I mean, as they should,

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you know, so, um,
it's one of those things where I can

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see why they don't do it,
but the fact of the matter is is

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that it needs to be done,
you know, like we can't. It's

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like that whole thing man, like
are there aliens? And you know,

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yes there are, and they're just
not releasing it because we can't handle it.

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Not bullshit. We have a right
to know, you know. It's

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it's kind of a strange analogy.
But I'm you know, like I'm a

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big alien guy. Just you know, Um, if you think I'm crazy,

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well, I mean that's your that's
your prerogative. But you know,

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it's kind of the same. It's
kind of the same thing though, you

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know, in the sense that you
know, not trusting the public to be

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able to handle or truth is no
answer to me, you know. I

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mean, I think in terms of
what the purpose all the body cams are,

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which we all know as transparency as
to what is going on during these

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encounters that, you know, if
they're not releasing it, how is there

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any transparency? Right, yeah,
exactly. And I think with the defense,

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you know, being um with the
with the cop being the defendant,

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like you were saying, that kind
of flips the script a little bit because

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usually it's the other way around,
and that's you know, we kind of

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alluded to it already, but I
think we should jump into it, which

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is is there a conflict of interest
in cases like this where a county prosecutor

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is prosecuting basically a fellow employee of
the county, So there exists this unspoken

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motive to perhaps not get a guilty
verdict or not do your job as a

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prosecutor because it can come back negatively
on the city in terms of a civil

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case, monetary justice Department investigations.
And the reason I bring that up is

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because there's a number of times that
it felt like, you know, and

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this is just one example of the
push by not the defense, but by

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the prosecution not to release the body
camera footage, and you know, the

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prosecution fumbling a number of number of
arguments throughout the trial. It just seems

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suspicious. It seemed like, you
know, maybe there's a motive here for

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them not to do their job.
What's your take on that? Yeah,

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I have long thoughts on that.
Excuse me, Yeah, I there's absolutely

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a conflict, and so just kind
of how it works with the prosecutor's office

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and whatever agencies. So, you
know, like typically, like in any

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county you're practicing in, you have
typically depending on the size of the county,

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you know, you can have five, ten, fifteen, twenty law

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enforcement agencies within that county. All
of those all of those agencies are working

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hand in hand with the prosecutor's office. So while they're technically not employees of

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say the prosecutor's office, they are
the arm of enforcement for the prosecutor's office.

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I understanding what I'm saying. So
cops aren't taking orders from prosecutors at

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least in terms of being on the
streets. Now, they do take orders

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if prosecutors are like I need this
evidence, I need to go find it,

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that's what they do. You know, So there's an absolute conflict there,

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like without question. I mean,
you're talking about two pieces of the

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puzzle that are like completely intertwined with
one another, and you know, to

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think for one moment that you know, You've got a prosecutor who has this

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cop that testifies on his behalf on
behalf of the people the state of Illinois,

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and this circumstance for me all the
time on all their cases, that

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they protect them constantly when they're on
the stand. You know, to think

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that that somehow disappears and that that
relationship doesn't have any kind of bearing on

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what's going on in any case is
absurd. Of course it does. So,

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yeah, there's a there's a massive
conflict. Now, what typically happens

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because of that conflict, like in
a county that's smart, is that they

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will bring in a special prosecutor.
Now, the question that I have and

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what I've been posing, like,
so i go when I'm in court and

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you know, I'm talking with prosecutors
or the lead prosecutor, and like one

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of the counties I'm in and like
one of these kinds of cases comes up,

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I'm always like, hey, you
know, let's not have a prosecutor

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prosecute these cases because there's always going
to be a conflict there, whether it's

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a special prosecutor from like a different
county or not. The reality is is

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there's going to be a conflict.
So why don't we appoint a defense attorney

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as a special prosecutor that alleviates the
problem, and there's nothing that stops them

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from doing that. Like you don't
have to be like a prosecutor in order

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to be named a special prosecutor to
try a case. To me, that

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makes the most sense. It's absolutely
common sense. Why would why would an

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outside um special prosecutor? Why would
that lead to another conflict of interest just

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because it's a prosecutor, you know, Like that's that's what they do,

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man, That's like it's their hand
in hand, right, Like the prosecutors

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can't exist without that arm of the
police, you know, out there enforcing

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the law, you know, getting
the arrest, writing the reports. Like

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everything is done in locked up between
those two parties. It's like it makes

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sense, you know, Like in
the past couple of years, you know,

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with starting with you know, a
couple other cases, but like in

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the last six months, you've probably
heard the term, you know, probably

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cause Affidavid more than you've ever heard
it in your entire life. Combined when

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the Delphi PCA came out and then
the Idaho for probably cause Affi David came

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out. I mean, those are
like literally I've been you know, I'm

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an old dude and I've been practicing
for twenty plus years and I've never heard

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probably cause Affidavid's talked about so much
ever, you know. So I'm sitting

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there like, holy shit, and
like I've got all these resident you know,

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geniuses and armchair lawyers on the internet
talking about shit that they have no

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fucking idea what they're talking about.
Oh, they don't put all the evidence

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in there. I'm like, nah, dude, Like they put the best

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evidence that they have at the time
in the in the PCA. Always are

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they including every detail? No,
of course, not that you know,

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thirty page affidavit. Now, what
they're doing is they're summarizing what their best

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evidence is at the time, and
they put that forward. So, you

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know, and that is developed between
the cops and the prosecutors. Like,

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the cops aren't writing those affidavits.
They're signed off by a cop. But

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believe me, those are all written
by you know, especially in a major

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case. Maybe in smaller cases,
you know, where it's like a robbery

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or something like that, you know, the cops are writing those out.

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But in major cases that they know
are going to be scrutinized heavily, not

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only by the defense but by the
public as well. Those are drafted by

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prosecutors, you know, in all
major cases, like the prosecutor is not

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letting because they can be attacked,
you know, like people forget people forget

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that, you know, like when
I get um, you know, when

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I get a file, when I
get retained on something, first thing I

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look at is is the rest warrant
in the search warrants, because I'm looking

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to attack them, and I'm looking
to quash warrants to get you know,

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evidence suppressed, and I'm looking to
quash the arrest, which goes directly to

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what was written in the Affidavid for
the arrest. So if there's gaping holes

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in there, so they're not holding
back the best evidence in those things.

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Ever, it's not just not how
it works. The reality is in a

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case like like say the Idaho four
case, eight percent of the evidence that

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they will end up using in that
trial is going to be post arrest because

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that's when they have access to the
guy's apartment, his car, his family

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home, his DNA not his dad's
DNA, all of his devices, all

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the evidence like what they had then
is what they had then, like,

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that's all of it that they had, and it was very compelling. I

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mean you read it and you're like, all right, this is massively different

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than what they came up with in
the Delphi case. I mean that you

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read that thing, You're like,
oh my god, do they have the

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right guy? You know, where
where's the evidence? It's like the so

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so, Yeah, there's that conflict
because you've got a prosecutor and a law

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enforcement agency that are always in locked
up and that that is a mindset,

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you know what I'm saying, And
you can't turn that function off in your

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mind. I don't care if you're
in a different county or not, Like

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you'd have to be from a different
planet for you to be a prosecutor.

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And you're going in prosecuting a cop
a whole different county, the whole ship

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is flipped upside down and everything because
every cop that works for you is like

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fuck that guy. You know,
you know that guy, that guy's trying

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cops, Well, fuck that guy. In this modern day, I mean,

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I like what you said about having
a defense attorney be the special prosecutor,

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but it might even be the case
where whether it is a defense attorney

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or whoever it is. There's so
many of these cases now we might have

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to have prosecutors who just prosecute cops
or maybe that's their specialty, um,

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and they don't do anything else.
Yeah, I mean that's I don't know,

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like I could see that being Yeah, and they'll be as well liked

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as um, you know, like, uh, what's it called, like

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the internal affairs guys you know who
are all cops? Yeah? Yeah,

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they're they're all contrips who are yeah, you know, they're the plague of

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the the cop world. You know, all cops hate the internal affairs guys.

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Yeah, I mean that's certainly that's
certainly one answer, um where they

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kind of have just like a special
unit prosecutors that don't prosecute anything other than

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um, you know, and it
would probably only take one, you know,

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two prosecutors to kind of man that
office, depending on the size of

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the county. Yeah, I'm not
saying that, I know what the best

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answer is either, No, I
like, if they're not going to just

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appoint defense attorneys, which is what
they should do, you know, because

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it's it's one of those things where
you know that relationship is the proper mindset

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to where you know that the prosecuting
attorney in that particular circumstances is going to

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be going balls out against exactly.
Yeah, and you can't because it's after

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the fact. You can't go in
and say, oh, hey, this

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prosecutor didn't try hard enough, so
we have to retry the case. You

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know, it's like they get one
chance, and especially Mitch. You know,

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the Mitch rails for trial. It
seemed so it's like I didn't know

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if the fix was in there or
she was just a shitty lawyer. Well,

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let me play. Let me go
ahead and play a clip for you.

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Um, okay, I know you've
listened to it. I'll play it

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again for both of us and you
actually let me see. Actually I should

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00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:52.559
be able to play it from the
Google meetings. Let you see how was

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there an imminent threat meeting a moment
before it? And assault occurs from Daniel

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when you didn't see or no if
he had a guns which, as the

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00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.759
criminal defense attorney Jason Lamb joins us
to talk about this case, said,

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everybody has been following closely waiting for
him to take the stand in his own

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defense. What do you think you
saw a playoff? Well, we knew

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this was coming. We knew that
Mitch Brailsford was going to take the stand

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because under Arizona law, the defense
is the obligation to generate some evidence that

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the defendant acted in self defense,
at least if the jury is going to

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be instructed on the issue. Here's
what I mean by that. Only Mitch

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Brailsford can say what was going through
his head and why he used deadly force,

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why he saw an imminent threat.
And it played out just like I

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said it would when we were here
last a few weeks ago. But I

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gotta tell you something, when I
saw that cross examination yesterday, I was

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a little surprised because I think the
prosecutor is almost starting to throw in the

349
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towel because there's something called lesser included
offenses. And let me let me explain

350
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to you what that means when we
talk about murder. First green murder is

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an intentional killing with premeditation, second
degree is intentional without premeditation, manslaughter is

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a reckless killing, and then you
work your way down to negligent homicide.

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But there was some video yesterday from
the cross examination that I thought was very

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telling. Maybe we can take a
look at that Okay, So at that

355
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moment you did want to shoot him, correct, all right, So you

356
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:40.799
were just being reckless when you shot
him? Certainly? Were you being careless?

357
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.319
Was it an accident? No?
Man, so you wanted to shoot

358
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:47.839
him and you shot him? No, I did not want to shoot him

359
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.200
him? Right, Well, if
it wasn't an accident and it wasn't carelessness,

360
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and it wasn't recklessness, then you
intended to shoot him, correct.

361
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:59.720
It was what I needed to protect
my fellowman and the woman that we had

362
00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:04.319
just seen things. I see what
you're saying, and that's less of a

363
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cross and more of helping him explain
what was happening for him. What I

364
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:12.880
actually just saw and maybe you and
maybe people at home saw it too,

365
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was actually a hail Mary? In
cross examination, what the prosecutor did?

366
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She went through the different mental states
for second degree murder, for manslaughter,

367
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and then for negligent homicide. And
why would a prosecutor go for these lesser

368
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offenses if you don't have faith in
your main charge, second degree murder?

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And if anything, she gave Mitch
Brailsford, a very well prepared and well

370
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coached Mitch Brailsford, the opportunity not
only to deny these lesser offenses, but

371
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to reassert his argument of self defense. All right, that's pretty much what

372
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was your take on that. Yeah, when I when I first watched that

373
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night, I had not watched that
trial live. I was taken aback by

374
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how poorly the prosecutor cross examined him
just in general. You know, It's

375
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like I don't know if I necessarily
disagree or agree with him either way.

376
00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:14.640
Um, I just kind of look
at it differently in terms of it being

377
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a hill Mary. I just she
didn't have the ability to be able to

378
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pin him down. Um, you
know, for for the second you know,

379
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for the second degree. You know, it has to be intentional.

380
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:30.160
Now, of course common sense dictates
just by way of the way it shook

381
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:33.039
out. And of course he was
intending to shoot him, you know,

382
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:37.720
I mean his weapon was trained on
him. You know, he's a skilled

383
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:42.279
marksman, and you know he warned
him several times. So when he opened

384
00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:45.240
fired, obviously you know, when
he opens fired, he obviously intends to

385
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:51.640
hit him. Um. You know, like it got lost in this like

386
00:29:51.720 --> 00:30:02.160
little esoteric conversation, right, I
mean, like she just lost there exactly,

387
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:04.160
She just lost control of that,
like you know, the whole thing

388
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:08.480
with a cross examination, you know, the entire point of it is that

389
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you are able to control the flow
of that particular testimony, you know,

390
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whereas like the difference with a direct
examination, you can end like you can

391
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:26.160
ask open ended questions, you know, um, whereas with a cross examination,

392
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.839
you're asking very pointed questions where you
know, like so when it direct,

393
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:33.920
I can say, well, you
know, tell me what happened,

394
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:38.319
okay, And that's like direct happens
when it's your witness. So when you

395
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:41.240
put your witness on the stand,
you can then just let them kind of

396
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:47.400
go through like a long story and
narrative saying what happened. We're on cross

397
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:51.319
examination. The entire point is you're
able to ask very pointed questions, what

398
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.839
they call leading questions, where you're
only giving them the ability to be you

399
00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:59.240
know, give you either a yes
or no answer. You know. So

400
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:03.880
like she like she was not doing
that, like not really she was just

401
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.640
like she was just kind of leading
him, not not effectively at all.

402
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.279
You know. It was one of
the poorest cross examinations i'd seen of somebody

403
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.480
who had shot somebody ever, you
know, because like we were just saying

404
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:19.559
like that conversation that they're having,
and that's the way it almost seemed was

405
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:25.319
conversational to me as opposed to antagonistic, which is the way that it's supposed

406
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:30.480
to be on Cross you know,
where she you know, she's like not

407
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:34.759
clarifying what she means by intent.
You know, were you intending? You

408
00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:37.240
know, I mean, obviously he's
going to say, no, I didn't

409
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:40.079
want to sh you know, I
didn't want to shoot him. I had

410
00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:42.920
to shoot him based on my training
experience because I thought that he was reaching

411
00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:47.720
for a weapon, right, So
like she she needed to be able to

412
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:53.039
pinpoint him into what was really going
on. And you know, it's like

413
00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:59.880
the more you watch how that that
thing played out, um in terms of

414
00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:04.000
the trial and how it was handled, you know, I see why a

415
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:07.279
jury came back the way that they
did, ye, how the case was

416
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:10.559
tried, you know what I mean. It's kind of like, as much

417
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:16.359
as I had an inclination to believe
that OJ did it, I also knew

418
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:20.160
that when I watched every second of
that trial, that they didn't prove it

419
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:22.680
beyond a reasonable doubt, you know
what I mean. So it's like and

420
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.519
it was kind of the same same
with this. That's like, that's what

421
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:29.680
I'm saying. You know, it
seemed as if the fix was in with

422
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:36.519
this thing because she fumbled it just
enough to where it kind of left it

423
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.920
to where they couldn't find it beyond
a reasonable doubt. And the fact that

424
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:47.359
that you had Charles Langley giving the
instructions added the whole another layer of you

425
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:53.079
know, responsibility and culpability, you
know, putting it all on the guy

426
00:32:53.079 --> 00:33:00.440
who fired the gun when really the
ringleader wasn't on trial. Um. So

427
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:05.920
well, this brings us back to
another point too, which I didn't put

428
00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:07.880
in the notes, but I wanted
to get your take on it. They

429
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:16.079
ruled that the engraving on the gun
was prejudicial. Um. So the jury

430
00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:21.799
never heard that. It said,
you're fucked on the dust cover. Um

431
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:25.960
what do you I mean, what's
your take on that? If you could

432
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:31.799
give an objective take, like,
is that something that you could remove yourself

433
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:36.200
from the details of this case and
say, okay, maybe that would be

434
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:42.119
prejudicial? Um Or do you think
no, it goes to mental state?

435
00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:45.319
Yeah, it thought, Well,
you know, welcome to my world.

436
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:50.039
So I've been dealing with that shit
for twenty fucking years. In courts of

437
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:54.839
law where I am constantly told that
evidence like that is more prejudicial than it

438
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.759
is probitive, which is what you
know what they hang there. That's what

439
00:33:58.759 --> 00:34:01.599
the judges hang their hat on,
you know, because like you know,

440
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:07.200
because you can sit there and listen
to this guy give testimony about how he

441
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:09.000
was an eagle scout, so that
they're building his character up, like I

442
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:15.239
mean, like he's a great as
a teenager and building you know, the

443
00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:19.519
homeless and was giving you know,
canned food drives for the homeless people,

444
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:22.519
for homeless kids, you know,
I mean, so you know that that's

445
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:27.960
kind of like it all ties into
this kind of like this backward scenario where

446
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:32.199
you've got a prosecutor trying a cop, you know what I'm saying, where

447
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:37.800
you know he's not going to have
any because typically, you know, everything

448
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:44.199
is a defense attorney, I'm I'm
trying to rebut all the dirt that they're

449
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:47.599
trying to bring in on my guy. That like so, like like typically

450
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.159
in a in a criminal defense,
you know, from the criminal defense side

451
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:58.719
of it, I have a situation
pre trial where I'm always fighting motions where

452
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:00.920
they are trying to bring in prior
bad acts, and those are things that

453
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:06.280
it's not even something that he's necessarily
been convicted of. It's just something that

454
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:10.159
he may have done or said that
goes to his character. So like I

455
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:15.760
would have been making that same argument, and they almost invariably allow it in

456
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:21.000
if it's close in time and if
it's related to the crime that he's been

457
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:25.480
charged with. And obviously him saying
that in terms of inscribing it on his

458
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:30.559
weapon is pertinent. It shows what
his mindset is. Man, it's the

459
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.559
gun he used that night. Like
I could see if it was a rifle

460
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:37.079
he kept at home and used for
hunting or but I mean it's well,

461
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:42.880
it's it's his work issued No,
it's actually his or his weapon exact.

462
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.760
Yeah, it's it's his weapon that
work designated. Yes, it's his work

463
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:51.079
designated weapon. But he owns it. You know, he owned it prior

464
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:52.760
to the job. He's certified to
use it, and they let him use

465
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:57.239
it on the job. To me, to you know, you know,

466
00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:00.719
I mean that is going to be
something that will if if it were,

467
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.920
you know, had he been convicted, you know, And there's like prosecutors

468
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:08.119
never appeal a loss like that because
there's double jeopardy. You know, once

469
00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:12.480
he's acquitted, it's done, it's
over. You know. The only you

470
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:15.960
know, like you mentioned to me
a couple of times, I mean there's

471
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:19.960
an off chance that the Feds could
move on it. Um, you know,

472
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.400
but the reality is as if the
prosecution can't bring it home, if

473
00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:28.159
the Feds aren't going to touch it. You know, that's just the reality

474
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:30.079
of it. I mean that that's
like, you know, the form of

475
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:35.079
justice that that you know, his
wife is going to get is going to

476
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:37.719
be you know, the money that
she got, you know that right sheet

477
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:43.840
she ended up getting. Yeah,
right after the season pretty much premiered that

478
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:46.280
she settled. Um, yeah,
what she got like eight million something?

479
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:51.880
Yeah, yeah, So you know, I mean, unfortunately that is never

480
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:55.440
going to bring Daniel Shaver back.
Um, you know, is that really

481
00:36:55.480 --> 00:37:00.519
any kind of justice? No?
Um, you know, we just need

482
00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:06.760
to hope that this guy is never
you know, on a police force again

483
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:08.800
or any kind of law enforcement agency. I mean he's not, is he.

484
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:13.960
Have you heard has that guy been
hired back by anybody? No?

485
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.519
No, well, you know,
the whole thing with him being hired just

486
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:22.800
so he could get his disability.
So he was hired back by MESA for

487
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:28.159
like a month, But no,
I don't think. I think the part

488
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:31.519
of the agreement was he would never
work at least for MESA again. But

489
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:38.480
the larger question, too, is
about his co conspirator, who supposedly is

490
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:44.639
in the Philippines. But as as
I did more research into that, I

491
00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:50.400
really couldn't find anything confirming that,
And I started to think, you know

492
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:54.400
what a perfect rumor. If I'm
that guy, I wouldn't mind people thinking

493
00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:59.760
I'm living in the Philippines. You
know, I don't know. Maybe maybe

494
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:02.760
some one did get, you know, record of his plane flight or something,

495
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.880
but you know, as far as
I know, he might actually still

496
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:13.239
be hanging around. Um, but
yeah, I don't know. What do

497
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:16.000
you think is there any chance of
I mean at this point probably not,

498
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:22.119
But is there any chance he could
be or why do you know, way,

499
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:25.440
why do you think he was never
charged in the first place because it

500
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:30.400
was a tougher case than the one
against Shaver. You know what I'm saying.

501
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:32.599
It's like that that's a tougher case
to the guy. Yeah, yeah,

502
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:37.679
yeah, you know that that's that's
like a harder case to prove than

503
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:40.679
the case against the shooter. You
know, I mean, like it's always

504
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:45.360
it boils down to for prosecutors whether
or not they think they can get a

505
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:50.880
conviction on it right right, and
they look at it super subjectively, you

506
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:53.719
know. I mean they're they're not
as concerned with you know, victims and

507
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:59.280
things of that nature. And again, you know, it's like because of

508
00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:02.159
like the backward natures of this thing, you know, that's always going to

509
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:07.119
come into play. Like there's there's
so much you know, red tape and

510
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:12.519
politics behind closed doors that's going on
with these types of cases always, you

511
00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.320
know, because it's not just you
know, you've got police unions that are

512
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:19.360
dealing with it, and you've got
just all kinds of shit going on back

513
00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:23.840
and forth between mayors of towns and
you know, I mean it's these are

514
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:29.400
not clean things. You know.
The best way to handle this is to

515
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:32.000
start handling it on the front end. You know, they need they need

516
00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:38.440
extremely thorough psychological examinations done of any
you know, done on anybody that's that's

517
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:43.800
trying to get into those jobs.
Man, because we need to know who

518
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.239
we're giving the power to. Because
I've said it on my pot a bunch

519
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:51.840
of times, man, you just
I am I am. I am hard

520
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:59.920
pressed to think of another occupation that
is given more power than a police off

521
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.960
officer. And and I'm talking on
a daily basis. And you know,

522
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:06.039
sure you can make the argument you
have the power. You know, the

523
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:08.000
President of the United States has the
most power, But do they really I

524
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:12.000
mean, they're more of a figurehead. They've got the checks and balances in

525
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:15.039
there with the House and the sunate
man, you know. I mean,

526
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:21.320
like in terms of day to day
power and the ability to control other people's

527
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:24.679
movements, what they say, what
they do. You know, like up

528
00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:30.159
until recently, to end lives without
any kind of repercussion, you know,

529
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:35.760
to go in, kick in a
drug dealer's door on a bad search,

530
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:37.280
steal all the cash. I mean
that, Like, if you have not

531
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:44.039
watched UM, We Own This City
about the Gun Trace Task Force in Baltimore,

532
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:46.599
you need to. You need to
start watching that ship tonight because it's

533
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:53.639
documentary. Now it's actually um it's
actually scripted, but it's based on real

534
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:58.960
life, on that gun Trace Task
Force that was in Baltimore, and it

535
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:01.679
was kind of like it was apped
in with it was funny. I watched

536
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:08.559
it and it's brilliant it's by yeah, yeah, of course. So I

537
00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:14.440
think it was a six parter man
and it's it's mind blowing. I'm the

538
00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:16.400
guy. These guys were straight up
criminals, you know, but they were

539
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:22.280
robbing drug dealers. I gotta send
you, I gotta send you the UM

540
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:28.280
the little After show he just did, which is one of the guys.

541
00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:32.800
UM has a podcast, one of
the X Cops in Mesa, and he

542
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:38.480
interviewed um not Mitch brails for but
he interviewed the head of the police union,

543
00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:45.440
uh Nate Gavert, who came out
and uh, you know said that

544
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:52.639
of course Mitch Brailsford wasn't guilty,
and he probably wrote the very mean spirited

545
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:58.920
Facebook message like the month after the
shooting that said he paid the price.

546
00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:04.000
You know, he has to face
consequences, and he did. That's why

547
00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:07.039
he's dead or whatever, you know
whatever it said. Right, But on

548
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:12.760
this podcast, this guy he always
asked, he always asks his guests,

549
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:17.000
He always has cops on why they
wanted to be a cop. And he

550
00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:24.320
said his reason is because in the
movie Serpico, when they're asking when al

551
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:30.280
Pacino's character Serpico, when he says, you know, the reason he wanted

552
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:31.559
to be a cop. I don't
know if you remember. It's kind of

553
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:37.119
an obscure scheme, but he says, there was something happening in the neighborhood

554
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:40.000
and he saw all the cops running
in, and they were the guys who

555
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:45.559
knew what was going on, Like, they knew what was happening and no

556
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:49.840
one else did. And that's why
he wanted to be a cop. That's

557
00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:52.320
why Serpico did. And then this
guy said, well, that's why he

558
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:59.880
did, and he missed the whole
broader narrative of that film about police corruption,

559
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:06.840
right, yeah, exactly, and
it's about like but that's yeah,

560
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.719
it's just uh man, yeah,
I mean, look dude, it's like

561
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.920
that's what I'm saying, like that
this issue has to be dealt with on

562
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:22.519
the front ends because the politics of
it is never going away, you know,

563
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:27.679
it's just not. And the police
union's very powerful. You know,

564
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:31.960
You've got you've just got layer after
layer, you know, starting from up

565
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:36.199
on high in any city, you've
got the mayor's office is going to be

566
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:39.239
backing its police. You know,
they're going to be fighting against liability,

567
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:44.920
against the city, you know,
and and it's it's gotten to the point

568
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:51.400
now like we're like our third season
we were, I think we're gonna shift

569
00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:54.480
it to our fourth season because I
had another story jump up, and like

570
00:43:54.519 --> 00:43:57.840
I want to I want to take
advantage of it, you know, before

571
00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:02.079
this guy dies. But um,
it was about this cop named Ronaldo grovera

572
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:07.119
who was using all his confidential informants. And if you don't know what a

573
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.719
confidential informant is, is that somebody
that typically has picked up a you know,

574
00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:14.559
like a beef, like a you
know, they got picked up on

575
00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:17.800
a like typically a drug charge,
or you know, some kind of like

576
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.880
medium level crime where it's not murder, rape or any of the big ones,

577
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:28.679
you know, and the cops then
flip them then use them as informants

578
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:30.880
to say, all right, look, we're not going to charge you on

579
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:35.000
this case, but your mind now
I own you, and you're you know,

580
00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:37.199
you're going to be out on the
streets. You're gonna be my eyes

581
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:39.960
and my ears, and you know, anytime I need a witness in a

582
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:43.519
case, you're my guy, you
know. So I need to keep your

583
00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:45.880
eyes open, I need to keep
your ears open. I need you to

584
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:50.480
be feeding me information whenever I need
it. And so that's what confidential informants

585
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:53.440
are. So this guy, Ronaldo
Guvera, was using all of his CIS

586
00:44:54.000 --> 00:45:00.639
and in the early nineties up through
like the late nineties, he clo fifty

587
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:07.079
one murder cases using his CIS,
fingering innocent men. So he he put

588
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:13.400
fifty one innocent guys in prison on
murder beefs all all from using his CIS

589
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.440
and of course he was planting evidence
and all that other stuff. Thirty of

590
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:21.079
them have been exonerated, damn.
So so yeah, like, so you

591
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:23.639
have the unusual circumstance in Cook County, which is where Chicago is, the

592
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:30.360
county that Chicago is situated in,
where like typically in those types of cases,

593
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:35.199
you have the support of the mayor's
office, like they're behind you because

594
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:37.199
they don't want the liability. Like
for them, it's all about the money,

595
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.599
Like the city does not want to
pay out on these things. So

596
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.320
like this, there has just been
one after another after another that have been

597
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:50.840
overturned, and you know, the
people in prison have been exonerated and I'm

598
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.400
talking these people have been prisoned for
twenty years. You know. It's like,

599
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.920
dude, it's insane. Like this
guy is like the arch criminal.

600
00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:01.760
He's like the worst copst cops.
Not only is he still alive, he's

601
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:06.920
never he's never been charged to anything. So just like like just let that

602
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:08.840
kind of like roll around in your
head a little bit, that concept.

603
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:15.440
So but like Kim Fox, who's
currently the um these States Attorney in Cook

604
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.039
County, she said, we're we're
done, We're done backing this guy.

605
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:22.320
We're not We're not gonna So they're
just really it's like it's like a blank

606
00:46:22.440 --> 00:46:25.840
checks like situation. Anytime there's a
Verra guy that that you know, the

607
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:30.559
case is picked up, they're just
right now twenty million dollars checks to these

608
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:35.400
families like over no it dude,
it's it's unbelievable. So you know the

609
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:38.159
point being that, you know,
if we can start dealing with like we

610
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:45.880
like the defunding the police was not
properly phrased, like when that that concept

611
00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:49.199
was brought up, but like that
that was people like automatically thought, oh,

612
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:52.880
we're not gonna have police anymore.
It's not what it meant. Like

613
00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:58.480
what it meant is that you don't
dump huge amounts of money into turning your

614
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:07.280
police, you know, agencies into
you know, militarized squad units that yeah,

615
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:08.559
you know what I mean, it's
like, that's that's not their purpose.

616
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:14.320
Man. They're out there to serve
and protect. Remember when they used

617
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:15.320
to put that out. Do they
even put that on cop cars anymore?

618
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:19.360
I don't know. That used to
be on all cop cars to serve and

619
00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:22.280
protect. I think at some point
they're like, you know what, maybe

620
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:25.239
we should take that off. I
think we're gonna I think we're gonna start

621
00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:29.599
stripping that off there, you know. So it's like, but if we

622
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:31.480
can start handling it on the front
end and just get good people, because

623
00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:37.800
I just know good guys and girls, good good girls or good women and

624
00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:40.360
men that are that are cops.
You know, it's like that are good

625
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:44.519
people, man, and like like
you need those people because that is a

626
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:47.039
scary job. I mean, they're
out in the shit. You know,

627
00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:52.440
they're out dealing with, you know, sometimes some really bad people, you

628
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:57.599
know, um. Other times they're
they're dealing with the underserved that are you

629
00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:00.239
know. It's like it all depends
on the situation they're in. And you

630
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:02.239
know, if you're you know,
on the West Side of Chicago, you

631
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:07.679
have to understand it's an underserved community
and kids are you know, out there

632
00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:09.440
doing what they need to do to
survive, you know what I mean.

633
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:14.480
It's like every situation is different in
terms, and you just have to have

634
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:20.039
people that are going into that job
capable of understanding what they're getting into and

635
00:48:20.119 --> 00:48:24.320
understanding the sociology of you know,
where they're a police officer, and you

636
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:30.039
know what the realities of each town, each city, you know that you're

637
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:35.800
dealing with it because if you just
go in like like I'm not even getting

638
00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:38.480
as like as narrow as like as
the as the guy a racist or not.

639
00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:43.400
I mean, obviously that's a bad
fit for that job, you know.

640
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:46.920
But but I'm talking just like just
straight biases, you know, where

641
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:53.320
people that just don't like have an
understanding of real life and how it works,

642
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:59.440
and you know, and inner city
areas and you know the trials and

643
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:02.320
tribulations and you know all the hurdles
that have to be gone through in order

644
00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:06.719
to kind of you know, get
yourself financially in a position to be able

645
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:09.679
to succeed in this you know,
capitalist society that we've created. Man,

646
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:15.119
it's like, I don't know it, Like to me, it seems like

647
00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:20.519
it's there's an answer, um,
you know, And to me, it

648
00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:24.719
starts with the hiring process. What
do you think too, things? What

649
00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:29.239
do you think too, because I
do think you know, those two things

650
00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:37.320
are probably the most important UM aspects
to tackle. Another thing that came up

651
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:45.639
over and over again in uh in
Mesa was independent review boards. So somebody

652
00:49:45.639 --> 00:49:52.880
who is has no monetary connection or
otherwise any other connection to the police department,

653
00:49:52.880 --> 00:50:02.360
who has authority to you know,
run investigations, third party um access

654
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:06.519
to bodycam footage, that kind of
thing. Do you do you see that

655
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:12.079
as being another aspect of this.
Yeah, you know, but that's still

656
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:15.920
after the fact, right. It's
like it's all reactive stuff. We need

657
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:21.400
to be proactive with things in terms
of just changing the mentality of the people

658
00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:23.920
that are being hired onto these you
know, these agencies. Man. You

659
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:29.800
know, it's like we just you
know, we don't need robocops, you

660
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:34.280
know. And in defensive police officers. They're not social workers, they're not

661
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:37.760
mental health workers. They shouldn't be
dealing with the mentally ill out there.

662
00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:40.760
And frankly, you know, I've
been doing this a long time. Eighty

663
00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:45.920
percent of my clients that were charged
with some kind of crime, no matter

664
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:49.440
what it was, whether it was
you know, burglary, theft, it

665
00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:53.159
was either related to drug addiction and
or mental health you know, mental health

666
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:57.559
issues, man. I mean,
it's like so like cops are dealing with

667
00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:00.360
things that they should not be dealing
with out there, you know, like

668
00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:05.400
in terms of dealing with with mentally
you know, people you know, and

669
00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:08.320
you know, dealing with with you
know, addicts who you know, just

670
00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:14.519
because you know, those people aren't
acting um in a way that the normal

671
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:20.360
functioning people are acting because of other
other things that are affecting them mentally,

672
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:23.519
whether it be drugs or alcohol or
you know, just mental illness alone.

673
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:29.440
You know. So it's like they
just they have to be you know,

674
00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:31.599
they just have to be vetted more
carefully when coming through, you know.

675
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:36.199
And it's like you know, and
I know they give them lie detectors and

676
00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:40.440
they give them psyche valves, but
it's like those you know, those are

677
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:45.000
there's there's just like standardized tests,
like you're not delving into anybody, you

678
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:49.559
know. And it's like like so
the city needs to decide, Okay,

679
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:53.199
do you want to keep paying out
you know, twenty ten, twenty million

680
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:58.800
every time one of our cops killed
somebody when they shouldn't have, you know,

681
00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:00.719
or do we want to sink some
of the money into the front end

682
00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:04.840
to where we're going to spend a
little more time on the hiring process.

683
00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:07.960
We're not going to just give him
some standardized psyche val, you know,

684
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:13.400
We're actually gonna you know, force
them into you know, counseling where they're

685
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:17.599
talking to somebody in person, to
where somebody or several people that are vetting

686
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:21.840
them to say, okay, well, you know, based on some of

687
00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:24.960
the answers this guy gave, he's
he might not be the best hire,

688
00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:29.280
you know what I'm saying. I
mean, there's ways to delve into that.

689
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:32.719
Um, you know, because any
any kind of standardized testing, man

690
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:37.239
that they all know, they know
going in, they know how to answer

691
00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:39.360
that shit, you know what I
mean. It's like it's like a false

692
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:44.320
front. It's it's not doing anything. It's not it's not solving the problem.

693
00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:46.760
So you know, and then you
look at the training and I forget

694
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:51.119
what the hell I was watching.
Man, It was something and this guy

695
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:58.000
was like the number one you know, agency police training guy like in the

696
00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:01.760
country. And this guy is like
a you know, shoot to kill,

697
00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:06.679
ask questions later type guy. You
know. I mean, he's like the

698
00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:10.840
diametric opposite of what we need in
those positions, you know. And the

699
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:15.960
bottom line is is that officers have
to be able to protect themselves because it's

700
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:21.119
an extremely dangerous job. But it
but it. But it can't be shoot

701
00:53:21.159 --> 00:53:24.440
first and ask questions later, which
is which is what the mentality is.

702
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:29.519
You know, Like everything, like
everything that dude was talking about at trial,

703
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:34.960
like in terms of his training is
geared towards pro shooting, you know,

704
00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:37.920
pro like pro kill. Like like
everything is geared towards justifying what he

705
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:43.719
did as opposed to trying to you
know, walk it back, you know,

706
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:47.719
and get the situation under control.
It's like, like, if I'm

707
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:51.920
him in that position, I'm getting
one of the four other people that are

708
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.159
with me, the four other officers, I'm saying, I've got him covered,

709
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:58.559
go get him and get him in
cuffs, you know, get him

710
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:02.079
restraint right now, and then the
situation's over. Instead he's he's screaming like

711
00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:06.440
some kind of lunatic, like some
kind of power hungry lunatic. You know.

712
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:09.440
It's like that's the part of the
thing that that's so hard to reconciles.

713
00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:14.880
You hear him, and you can
hear his attitude and just the way

714
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:17.639
he speaks and the way that he's
barking these orders, and you know,

715
00:54:17.719 --> 00:54:22.280
just the condescending shit that he's saying
is what makes you hate him, you

716
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:27.800
know. It's it's it's like there's
probably some truth to you know, the

717
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:30.440
fact when you look at it objectively, with the totality of the circumstances.

718
00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:34.840
And you've got two people in a
pool looking up in a window and see

719
00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:37.719
somebody holding what they think as an
assault rifle. It's probably not too far

720
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:42.400
removed from the Vegas shooting in the
hotel when the guy's wiping out into you

721
00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:45.440
know, an entire concert. So
the you know, the country's hyper or

722
00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:49.960
sensitive about that shit. So them
going in only knowing a limited amount of

723
00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:53.639
information, you know, I can
see where his mindset would be initially,

724
00:54:54.480 --> 00:55:00.920
you know, but once he gets
that guy under absolute in total control,

725
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:05.480
Like I forget what you said in
the like exactly in your episode, but

726
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:08.280
you're like, you know, kind
of in the history of having somebody you

727
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:15.639
know, completely relent in terms of
you know, being instructed to do something,

728
00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:17.360
and I am like, I am
I am not doing anything that's going

729
00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:21.440
to get me shot, Like that
guy was that guy, right, you

730
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:24.400
know, And and he's barking orders
that don't make sense in terms of you

731
00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:28.239
know, like well, I want
you to crawl, but you can't use

732
00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:31.119
your you can't be on your knees
or your your elbows, and that's impossible,

733
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:38.800
you know, like right Simon with
yeah, just impossible directions and right,

734
00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:44.119
you know. So it's like you
can see, it's like his attitude

735
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:46.440
is what made me hate him more
than than you know, or as much

736
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:50.800
as the actions, right, you
know, going into it, just because

737
00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:53.639
it was it was evident who he
was. You know, he's that guy,

738
00:55:54.360 --> 00:56:00.880
you know. And that's the thing
about you know, get caught in

739
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:08.360
a screening. If we had more
strict screenings, that could mentality and the

740
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:13.440
training like you're saying, with the
training too. And that's part of the

741
00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:17.280
reason that the season it ended up
being more of a season long case.

742
00:56:17.639 --> 00:56:22.119
I originally went in thinking I was
going to be you know, you see

743
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:24.480
the video, you know, I
listened to a little of the trial.

744
00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:30.559
I thought this will probably be one
episode. But then you get into Ramone

745
00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:34.599
Batista and the new chief who comes
in, and it's like you have this

746
00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:38.880
redemption moment for the city. Maybe
maybe this you know, this guy wants

747
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:44.480
to embed mental health experts in nine
one one call centers, he wants to

748
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:50.360
reform the training, he wants to
get third party you know, investigations into

749
00:56:50.360 --> 00:56:53.639
what's going wrong. And you're like, there's this moment of hope for the

750
00:56:53.719 --> 00:57:00.679
department, and they do everything they
can to sabotage it, of course,

751
00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:04.239
And that's what was so tragic to
me. I was like, this,

752
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:07.760
this is just I mean, it's
it's par for the course, dude,

753
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:10.239
you know, I mean, it's
like it's the same as it ever was,

754
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.960
you know, I mean that that's
like, it's just you know,

755
00:57:15.800 --> 00:57:21.360
that's what I'm saying, that that
the political side of it is so ingrained

756
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:23.960
that it's not like an independent agency. You know, it's under the purview

757
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:29.039
of the mayor's office. And I'm
talking about whatever police force it is.

758
00:57:29.079 --> 00:57:32.239
You know, it's like they're they're
always arms of politicians. And even when

759
00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:36.840
I'm talking about prosecutors, they're politicians. You know, at least the the

760
00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:39.199
you know, the the head prosecutor, whether it be a district attorney,

761
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:43.280
states attorney is what they call him
here. You know, you got county

762
00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:46.599
attorneys, but like the head,
the head person is elected. You know,

763
00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:51.880
it's a highly political job. Man, it's all politics. So and

764
00:57:51.920 --> 00:57:54.679
it bleeds down into that, you
know, and it's all about and it's

765
00:57:54.719 --> 00:57:59.280
all about money. You know,
it's all about what we're going to allocate

766
00:57:59.320 --> 00:58:01.199
money towards and you know, how
are we going to allocate it? And

767
00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:06.480
you know, and then you've got
philosophical differences between how, you know,

768
00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:08.800
how shit should be handled, which
is always going to pair it what's going

769
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:14.079
on in society, you know what
I mean. It's like, you know,

770
00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:16.400
if you got a militia type guy
that's you know, running ship,

771
00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:21.519
then you're gonna get a militia type
you know, police force. That's just

772
00:58:21.719 --> 00:58:25.840
facts, you know. And it's
it's one of those things where, um,

773
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:29.000
you know, we all we all
want to feel safe. You know.

774
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:34.079
It's like and as white as a
white guy, I've been fortunate never

775
00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:36.800
to feel the horror of what it's
like to just be a black guy just

776
00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:40.519
driving, you know, like and
yeah, when I see the cops,

777
00:58:40.559 --> 00:58:44.639
I get you know, I used
to get more on edge when I was

778
00:58:44.679 --> 00:58:47.320
a teenager doing drugs. Yeah,
me too, for sure. But but

779
00:58:47.559 --> 00:58:51.639
even then, you know, I
knew, Okay, most of these guys

780
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:53.360
are killed, I'm gonna be all
right. You know, it wasn't right.

781
00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:57.440
It wasn't Yeah, it wasn't like
I'm gonna be killed by the police.

782
00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:00.480
There wasn't much right. I never
thought that. You know, it's

783
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:04.079
like, right, that's what I'm
saying. And you know, put yourself

784
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:07.320
in a situation when you're always thinking
that, Well, this case, like

785
00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:13.360
it's so interesting on the race thing, because Daniel Shaver was white. The

786
00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:16.159
girl in the room with them was
white or at least maybe hispanic, Monique

787
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:22.760
Portillo. But um it, you
know, none of the officers were.

788
00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:25.960
They were all white, and so
it was like I think it was I

789
00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:31.920
think that might have actually been why
this case was forgotten. Not not to

790
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:38.199
say because of um you know,
we we only wanted to find black victims.

791
00:59:38.199 --> 00:59:44.159
But I think it was very scary
for white America to see a white

792
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:50.199
guy get destroy, to get executed
like this. They didn't want it.

793
00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:53.519
I face the reality that there's cops
out there that don't give a shit if

794
00:59:53.519 --> 01:00:00.280
you're black or white. They just
want a power thing. Yeah, power

795
01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:02.280
over dudes. Yeah, it's it's
for sure, man. And it's like,

796
01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:08.480
like I mean the mass shooting thing, like because I like I kept

797
01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:15.280
trying to I always try to put
my myself into the mind of like,

798
01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:20.079
for instance, this guy, um, you know Mitch. I can never

799
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:24.480
remember his last name. But it's
like I'm like, you know, what's

800
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:28.880
he thinking going in? You know
what I'm saying, like like where is

801
01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:35.199
his mindset in? Like how long
does that mindset last? Once he has

802
01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:37.559
or at least for all intents and
purposes, has the scene on our control,

803
01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:42.760
right, you know, like why
is he still so triggered? Once

804
01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:47.239
this guy is like on the floor
in a completely prone position, is pants

805
01:00:47.239 --> 01:00:53.119
are falling down, he's crying,
he's you know, he's clearly yeah,

806
01:00:53.159 --> 01:00:58.519
he's he's complying in every way possible, you know, and this guy just

807
01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:02.840
never scales it back. You know, he's just always in that like hyper

808
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:07.400
I'm gonna kill you mode. You
know if you don't listen to what you

809
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:10.239
know, it's like dude, you
know it's like you sit there and listen

810
01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:14.119
to that guy and you're like,
oh my god, So to think that

811
01:01:14.119 --> 01:01:21.559
that that guy like through some kind
of true psychological like a real like psychological

812
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:25.639
battery of tests and you know,
examinations by qualified experts that they're not going

813
01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:30.239
to sniff that out, you know, because like you're putting them in those

814
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:34.480
situations. You know, it's like
or maybe you know, like as soon

815
01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:37.760
as dude, I'm gonna tell you
you got me in a rabbit hole on

816
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:45.159
that gpt AI shit man, that
dude, like I told Alison, I'm

817
01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:50.159
like, I'm like TZ was posting
about this shit like, so we pulled

818
01:01:50.199 --> 01:01:54.159
it up and Alison was just like, we'll be back with more from Bob

819
01:01:54.239 --> 01:02:04.320
Mada right after this quick break,
stay with us. I went back to

820
01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:08.960
the nineties in that case because I
wanted to see what Mason was like,

821
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:15.119
you know, twenty years ago.
And then I started finding the rich elligant

822
01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:22.639
the cop who was raping his daughter, and I found those quotes from his

823
01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:30.559
attorney in the papers in from the
nineties when he was charged. I mean,

824
01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:34.760
is this kind of something, what's
your take on that? You know,

825
01:02:34.840 --> 01:02:37.519
Okay, I'll read you one of
the quotes whereas these were not consensual

826
01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:43.719
actions on the part of teenagers,
or these were consensual actions on the part

827
01:02:43.719 --> 01:02:49.760
of teenagers. These were teenagers,
not children. And it's the attorney talking

828
01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:54.360
about the thirteen year old kids that
the guy had been raping. Is this

829
01:02:54.519 --> 01:03:00.840
something that was a symptom of the
times? Is this a symptom of kind

830
01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:08.039
of a wild attorney. It just
seems something that you no one would say

831
01:03:08.079 --> 01:03:12.519
in this day and age. But
no, I don would ever say that

832
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:16.880
unless they want to be canceled,
right, Like, I mean, like

833
01:03:17.360 --> 01:03:22.239
I can't imagine any anybody's saying that
ever. You know, Look, it's

834
01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:25.639
one thing to be a defense attorney, you know, and putting your best

835
01:03:25.639 --> 01:03:29.880
foot forward for your client, right, you know, just in terms of

836
01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:32.559
denying guilt, but to come out
and make like a firmative statements that these

837
01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:37.840
weren't you know, these weren't children. These were teenagers. They were thirteen.

838
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:42.840
They were children defensively, you know, and like in cases like that

839
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:47.159
where it's nineties too, a big
part of it. Yeah, I mean,

840
01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:51.599
of course, okay, you know, I mean that that definitely plays

841
01:03:51.639 --> 01:03:52.360
a part of it, you know. I mean, if you go back

842
01:03:52.360 --> 01:03:55.480
into the seventies looking at the you
know, the gay sy shit, right

843
01:03:57.320 --> 01:04:00.280
dude, like you know you're gay, they didn't give a fuck. Oh

844
01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:02.960
yeah, like law enforcement did not
give a fuck, and we know that

845
01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:06.119
that was still going on. If
you watch the Dahmer shit, you know,

846
01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:10.199
it was the same, the same
mentality from law enforcement. Oh it's

847
01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:13.039
a couple of gay guys. Who
gives a shit, you know, like

848
01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:16.000
like oh they're they're sexual deviants,
No one cares, they don't count,

849
01:04:16.039 --> 01:04:20.400
you know, like kind of mentality
is prevalent. Yeah, whatever, whatever

850
01:04:20.440 --> 01:04:25.239
the case may be. You know, get some undesirable, like you know,

851
01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:29.639
they're big lump group of undesirables that
they can throw all kinds of people

852
01:04:29.679 --> 01:04:32.000
in there, you know, to
somebody who's not like them. So yeah,

853
01:04:32.079 --> 01:04:34.719
I mean in terms of the mindset, yeah, I mean I think

854
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:38.760
that was definitely a thing, you
know. I mean it's like you look

855
01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:44.119
at the evolution of everything you know, from I mean, child pornography wasn't

856
01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:47.760
even a thing, like like i
mean, there is more child porn cases

857
01:04:47.880 --> 01:04:53.159
and I'm talking strictly just child porn
than any other case on the planet.

858
01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:57.760
Like those are charged more frequently than
anything really, you know. And yeah,

859
01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:00.400
dude, and then pre Internet,
that wasn't the thing. You know.

860
01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:03.719
It's like that you had to have
some creep making kiddie porn films,

861
01:05:03.760 --> 01:05:06.639
you know, and some weird backlot
you know what I'm saying, it's like,

862
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:14.079
you know, photographing his daughter.
And I don't think he was charged

863
01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:17.000
with with child porn. Like I
don't even That's what I'm saying. I

864
01:05:17.000 --> 01:05:19.639
don't even know if they had that
on the books like that, yeah,

865
01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:24.840
like back then, like that's like
maybe we can that. I wondered if

866
01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:29.079
it was a product of the times
with uh, you know, because it

867
01:05:29.159 --> 01:05:32.800
wasn't just you know, even though
even the father was saying, well,

868
01:05:32.840 --> 01:05:36.840
she approached me and she wanted to
be in Playboy, a thirteen year old

869
01:05:36.840 --> 01:05:43.480
girl, and that was supposedly an
excuse he thought people would buy. And

870
01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:47.280
I'm like, what, like it
doesn't even it's like, uh, I

871
01:05:47.320 --> 01:05:53.880
don't know. It's just maybe that
at the time would have sounded I'm sure

872
01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:58.039
it sounded strange even at the time, but maybe it would even sound somewhat

873
01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:01.400
possible. But now it's it's like, oh sane, you know, like

874
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:05.320
I no, Like yeah, I
mean, and what are we talking like

875
01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:08.800
so ninety six, two thousand and
two, so you know, what are

876
01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:12.679
we talking like twenty twenty six,
like twenty six years some shit like that.

877
01:06:12.760 --> 01:06:15.360
Whatever, whatever the math is,
you know, I mean in the

878
01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:19.679
scope of everything that's a lifetime.
So yeah, I mean like like one

879
01:06:19.760 --> 01:06:24.280
hundred, like one hundred percent that
that was the mentality I mean is is

880
01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:28.440
early back as the night, Like, dude, half the shit I watched

881
01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:31.800
in the like in the eighties,
like which were hugely popular movies like The

882
01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:36.199
Breakfast Club and you know, sixteen
Candles Or's like it's all rape shit,

883
01:06:38.360 --> 01:06:42.440
like like they're like Molly Ringwald's definitely
like getting raped in that fucking car,

884
01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:45.199
you know what. It's like all
the shit that like we watched like in

885
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:50.000
the in the late eighties, like
our whole And for the record, the

886
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:54.199
shift is correct, right, you
know, I mean like what what like

887
01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:58.679
you know that that like at that
point I didn't realize it because that was

888
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:04.119
like the norm you know now is
it was like and look right exactly and

889
01:07:04.119 --> 01:07:08.960
and you look back and you see
the horror of like that, you know,

890
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:11.960
and it's like, I got three
daughters, you know, I've got

891
01:07:11.960 --> 01:07:15.079
three three girls, man, And
you know I have raised my girls to

892
01:07:15.119 --> 01:07:19.840
be you know, powerful women,
you know, and to never to never

893
01:07:19.960 --> 01:07:23.239
count out to anybody. I don't
give a shit what gender they are,

894
01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:26.239
you know. I mean, you're
always gonna you know. So it's like

895
01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:30.599
but that just you know, like
breaking out of that has taken forever.

896
01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:33.840
Dude. You know, we're still
we're still not there yet. I mean

897
01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:38.440
we've come leaps and bounds for for
you know, for women. You know,

898
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:41.639
I think we have a long ways
to go in terms of the race

899
01:07:41.719 --> 01:07:45.000
side of it. But you know, I mean there's incremental change, you

900
01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:47.679
know, man. But yeah,
no, I think you know, and

901
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:53.960
children, that concept of they should
you know, be seen and not heard.

902
01:07:54.400 --> 01:07:58.800
I think you know what it was
like for a long long time because

903
01:07:59.360 --> 01:08:02.719
I think kind of going to your
question, if you look at when they

904
01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:11.119
really started bringing um like that type
of like education into grammar schools in terms

905
01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:17.920
of kids being taught about sexual abuse
and you know, beyond like just stranger

906
01:08:18.039 --> 01:08:20.960
danger and don't take you know,
candy from a stranger type shit, to

907
01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:25.399
like where Okay, this can be
our uncle, this can be your dad,

908
01:08:25.560 --> 01:08:27.720
this can be your brother, this
can be you know, I mean,

909
01:08:28.239 --> 01:08:30.680
and just letting kids know that that's
not okay, that that's not normal

910
01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:35.159
because kids didn't know, you know, so like like and it's like I

911
01:08:35.199 --> 01:08:39.920
think still in the early nineties that
that's where we were as a country.

912
01:08:40.439 --> 01:08:45.039
That makes sense. It's hard.
It's weird for me because you know,

913
01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:49.880
I was so when this case happened
in ninety three, you know, I

914
01:08:49.880 --> 01:08:55.399
would have been four years old,
so I knew, you know, when

915
01:08:55.399 --> 01:08:59.439
I got to the two thousands,
things were still kind of the leftovers of

916
01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:01.439
the ninety so that culture. I
still kind of grew up in it,

917
01:09:01.720 --> 01:09:09.199
but I didn't see like we were
watching. So I'm thirty three and I

918
01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:15.760
was watching. We watched an old
Montel Williams episode, and the guest I

919
01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:24.079
had on she is twenty seven,
so even born into even a more progressive

920
01:09:24.119 --> 01:09:29.399
era. And we're watching an episode
from nineteen ninety three where this guy who's

921
01:09:29.439 --> 01:09:33.640
twenty three years old admits to taking
a thirteen year old girl's virginity. She's

922
01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:39.920
on stage, he's right there,
and you're like, well, when the

923
01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:42.560
cops come and arrest him, you
know, and it is just like,

924
01:09:42.720 --> 01:09:45.000
no, you just said it.
No one really cared, and you're like,

925
01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:48.680
what this is weird? Crazy?
Yeah, dude, It's like yeah,

926
01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:55.119
yeah, it's you know, and
it depends, like culturally speaking,

927
01:09:55.119 --> 01:09:59.520
we're still a very puritanical country.
So like the bottom line when you look

928
01:09:59.560 --> 01:10:03.079
at I mean there's countries all over
the world, and I certainly don't agree

929
01:10:03.119 --> 01:10:06.840
with it because you know, kids
should not be getting off it, you

930
01:10:06.840 --> 01:10:11.920
know, married off at thirteen years
old, Like their minds haven't even developed

931
01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:15.399
yet. You know. It's like
taking the concept that you know, a

932
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:19.399
girl has you know, hit puberty
and his like menstruating, is that they're

933
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:24.199
a woman, and like it is
like insane to me. But you know

934
01:10:24.279 --> 01:10:29.520
when you look at just kind of
like how like historically shit's developed, it's

935
01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:33.399
like, yeah, it's I don't
know, man, Like because I was

936
01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:42.319
googling, like so like the first
Federal Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act,

937
01:10:42.359 --> 01:10:47.560
which was the first federal statute that
made it illegal to send images of real

938
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:53.359
children engage in sexual explicitly sexual activity. When do you think that that was

939
01:10:53.680 --> 01:10:58.600
enacted? The first law, the
one that I just read that was like

940
01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:01.720
the first the first one that was
ever on the books in terms of the

941
01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:13.600
child maybe nineteen eighty eighty eight,
nineteen eighty eight, so like around the

942
01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:19.439
internet dawn. Right. So then
in nineteen ninety six, they they they

943
01:11:19.560 --> 01:11:24.359
upgraded, they expanded it, and
they called it the child pornography French in

944
01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:30.000
Acts of nineteen ninety six. So
like my entire point is is like that

945
01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:32.760
show wasn't even a thought like in
terms of that, like you know,

946
01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:39.960
like that it's late developing. You
know. It's just like yeah, like

947
01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:43.039
like I mean, now we're far
more protective of our children, you know,

948
01:11:43.159 --> 01:11:45.520
but back in the day, you
know, it kind of goes to

949
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:47.319
the you know, corporal punishment,
you know, with spanking your kids.

950
01:11:47.359 --> 01:11:51.439
That's that's dad. These days,
you know, like I mean, and

951
01:11:51.479 --> 01:11:55.640
there's there's trains of thought that were
like, oh, you know, spared

952
01:11:55.640 --> 01:11:58.399
the rod, spoil the child type
shit. You know, that's the problem

953
01:11:58.399 --> 01:12:01.279
with kids these days. You know, maybe there there's some truth to that,

954
01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:03.920
maybe there's not. I don't know. I've never been like a child

955
01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:08.399
beater, but you know, it's
like I've always tried to use my words

956
01:12:08.439 --> 01:12:11.600
to get you know, to get
my kids to understand, like in terms

957
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:15.039
of them doing things that they shouldn't
be doing. But you know, some

958
01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:18.960
people may not be as capable of
like articulating what they want their children to

959
01:12:19.039 --> 01:12:24.880
learn. But you know, I
mean up until you know again, eighties,

960
01:12:24.920 --> 01:12:30.000
early nineties, it's like when you
could beat you could beat your kids,

961
01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:31.880
man, you know, and it's
like like little humans, like,

962
01:12:32.319 --> 01:12:35.600
well it's okay because you made them
so you can beat them. You know.

963
01:12:35.680 --> 01:12:41.479
It's just like like we're we're we're
progressing, we're evolving, we are

964
01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:45.640
we are evolving slowly actually not that
slowly, like when you look at the

965
01:12:45.640 --> 01:12:50.680
scope of time, you know,
right, that's like but yeah, you

966
01:12:50.720 --> 01:12:54.520
know exactly dude, Yeah, that's
the beginning of the end. Just like

967
01:12:54.560 --> 01:12:57.119
you said, like I don't know
what I forget what you tweet. Really

968
01:12:57.239 --> 01:12:59.680
this is it's going to change the
world as we know it. I'm like,

969
01:12:59.720 --> 01:13:03.840
yeah, not in a good way. It's like there's like there's not

970
01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:08.520
gonna be anything good about that,
you know. I mean like like there's

971
01:13:08.520 --> 01:13:12.640
gonna be utility of it for sure. Well at the end of the day,

972
01:13:13.920 --> 01:13:17.800
Thank you, mister Mata. Oh
before we go, um, please

973
01:13:17.840 --> 01:13:25.359
tell just take a minute to tell
people about Defense Diaries and uh just plug

974
01:13:25.399 --> 01:13:29.720
your show for a minute and if
anybody hasn't listened, um I'll plug at

975
01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:34.720
first. Go go subscribe right now
to Defense Diaries. Just search it in

976
01:13:34.800 --> 01:13:41.319
your podcast app Defense Diaries and hit
subscribe and then uh, you know,

977
01:13:41.439 --> 01:13:45.560
right after you hit stop, put
on an episode of Um, what would

978
01:13:45.560 --> 01:13:50.159
you say, Bob, if they
never listened, what season in episode would

979
01:13:50.199 --> 01:13:55.880
you say they start with first?
Well, I mean considering its serialized,

980
01:13:56.399 --> 01:13:59.359
Um, you gotta start at one, you know. And it like it

981
01:13:59.399 --> 01:14:02.479
depends on what thing is Season one? Season Yeah, Season one is Gaycy

982
01:14:02.600 --> 01:14:05.960
and kind of the like the short
stories. My dad was his lawyer.

983
01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:10.239
He left me. I always say
left, but he gave me he's still

984
01:14:10.239 --> 01:14:15.159
alive. He gave me his taped
interviews with gay Sy while he was his

985
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:18.720
attorney prepping him for trial. I
turned into a pod. We think it's

986
01:14:18.720 --> 01:14:24.000
pretty good. It's not the normal
Gaycy story that you've heard. UM,

987
01:14:24.039 --> 01:14:26.600
So that one's interesting. It's you
know, and I want to tell you

988
01:14:26.680 --> 01:14:30.319
right up front, it's a major
time investment. My my seasons are not

989
01:14:30.439 --> 01:14:38.520
is concisely put together as tzs our
first season with the audience though for people

990
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:43.720
who yeah, this is right the
tapes from the dark Side fans, they

991
01:14:43.800 --> 01:14:47.920
love the exactly. It's this is
a deep, deep dive, man.

992
01:14:47.960 --> 01:14:53.119
And then season two is a case
about Anthony Garcia, which is a case

993
01:14:53.199 --> 01:14:58.960
that I handled, quadruple homicide.
Just brutal, tragic case. But it

994
01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:01.920
was an absolute war and it was
a case that I tried in Omaha,

995
01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:05.800
Nebraska. It's another long one,
you know. I think we just dropped

996
01:15:05.840 --> 01:15:11.039
thirty one on Patreon tonight. I
think it's going to actually be longer than

997
01:15:11.119 --> 01:15:14.279
Gaycy And it's like, you know, like moving forward, my seasons aren't

998
01:15:14.279 --> 01:15:16.640
going to be as long because these
both were personal for me. So I

999
01:15:16.680 --> 01:15:24.399
had that element of each season where
my personal you know kind of influences were

1000
01:15:24.439 --> 01:15:28.439
involved in both stories. Whereas you
know, moving forward, they're not necessarily

1001
01:15:28.479 --> 01:15:30.479
going to be personal story, so
they'll they'll be more tailored to the you

1002
01:15:30.520 --> 01:15:35.399
know, eight to twelve episode seasons. But you know, yeah, I'm

1003
01:15:35.399 --> 01:15:40.279
on a criminal defense attorney by trade
turn podcaster, you know, and I

1004
01:15:40.359 --> 01:15:44.560
just try to make the story is
interesting with a little bit of educational value

1005
01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:47.960
in terms of how the criminal justice
system works. And you know, I

1006
01:15:47.960 --> 01:15:51.800
think I'm a pretty good storyteller.
So you know, those three things combined,

1007
01:15:51.880 --> 01:15:55.880
I think make for a pretty decent
podcast. So yeah, if you

1008
01:15:55.960 --> 01:15:58.720
love the deep Dives, which if
you're listening to Tz, I know you

1009
01:15:58.800 --> 01:16:02.680
do because he's a fellow spelunker like
me. We love those deep dives man,

1010
01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:05.279
So um, yeah, I'd love
if you listened to again. You

1011
01:16:05.279 --> 01:16:11.239
can find us anywhere you get your
pods. Were their Defense Diaries. Subscribe,

1012
01:16:11.520 --> 01:16:15.520
follow like all that good stuff and
U hope to see uh on the

1013
01:16:15.560 --> 01:16:17.760
socials. Let me know if you
follow. And because TZ and I are

1014
01:16:17.760 --> 01:16:21.560
both pretty active on the socials,
like we get out there and with our

1015
01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:24.880
listeners. Yeah, we try to
be you know. I mean, it's

1016
01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:28.279
it's tough, there's only so many
hours. But I see you in there,

1017
01:16:28.319 --> 01:16:30.039
man, you know, I see
you. You're out there doing the

1018
01:16:30.319 --> 01:16:35.039
good works the trenches, in the
trenches people. That's right, one at

1019
01:16:35.039 --> 01:16:38.520
the time, We're one at the
time in here, you know, trying

1020
01:16:38.560 --> 01:16:41.560
to bring the listeners in. But
yeah, I love you man. I'm

1021
01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:45.000
glad we got to do this.
It was fun. Um, you know.

1022
01:16:45.039 --> 01:16:46.960
And I'm always available. I'm at
your back and call dude anytime you

1023
01:16:47.000 --> 01:16:50.520
want to dig into stuff. You
know. Hey, same here. Yeah,

1024
01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:53.960
all right, brother, all right, thanks Bob, and we'll talk

1025
01:16:53.960 --> 01:17:03.239
to again soon. All right,
Chow. Just one last quick reminder to

1026
01:17:03.439 --> 01:17:10.439
go download Defense Diaries and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts. A quick update

1027
01:17:10.479 --> 01:17:14.800
for tapes from the Dark Side.
I'm almost done writing the newest episode.

1028
01:17:14.800 --> 01:17:17.800
It's going to be a one off
as part of our season X. It's

1029
01:17:17.800 --> 01:17:23.439
a harrowing case and I think you
all will find it fascinating. Also,

1030
01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:28.680
thank you for everyone who has joined
Patreon. Because of you, we were

1031
01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:33.199
able to donate nearly eight hundred dollars
to Laney Sweet, who is the widow

1032
01:17:33.239 --> 01:17:40.640
of Daniel Shaver from season five.
Now. Laney just recently settled with the

1033
01:17:40.720 --> 01:17:45.800
City of Mesa a lawsuit for eight
million dollars, so I was unsure whether

1034
01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:49.439
she would actually need our financial assistance. If she declined, I was going

1035
01:17:49.479 --> 01:17:55.159
to donate it to a police reform
charity. I was finally able to get

1036
01:17:55.159 --> 01:18:02.520
in touch with Laney yesterday and she
said that her stepbrother's biological mother just passed

1037
01:18:02.560 --> 01:18:08.600
away, and so she said the
money would very much be appreciated and she

1038
01:18:08.640 --> 01:18:14.000
would donate it to him. So
we decided to donate the full amount that

1039
01:18:14.279 --> 01:18:20.399
we had pledged from half of the
Patreon earnings and from the T shirt sales

1040
01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:26.479
directly to Laney, and I sent
that yesterday. I'm gonna put proof of

1041
01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:30.840
payment up on social media and thank
you again, because you guys are really

1042
01:18:30.880 --> 01:18:38.159
the ones who helped us raise that
money. We'll be back soon with another

1043
01:18:38.239 --> 01:18:43.039
tape from the dark side. In
the meantime, trying to enjoy the daylight