S5, AFTERSHOW: The Execution of Daniel Shaver w/ Bob Motta

0:03 I am so excited to finally share with you the talk I had just a few days ago with Bob Mada of the podcast Defense Diaries. Bob is a defense attorney by trade and has been converted into a true crime podcaster. His show is excellent, and we'll tell you a little bit about it in a second, but in this episode we get into his opinion about the effectiveness of the prosecution in the Daniel Shaver case with the second degree murder trial of Mitch Brailsford. We also dive into some of the later stuff in that season, including a little bit about Richard Elligant and his lawyer, and finally we go off the rails and talk about aliens, future tech chat GPT, and our personal paranormal experiences. If you're listening to this on Patreon, you're going to get the full two hour long conversation. If you're listening on the main feed, I've cut out that extraneous stuff, But if you want to hear the full unedited interview, join us on Patreon or Apple Plus. And a huge thank you to everyone who supports us now. Bob's show, called Defense Diaries, is a serialized show just like ours, where each season he dives into a case. In his first case is all about John Wayne Gacy. You see, Bob's father was the defense attorney for John Wayne Casey and gifted Bob

1:34 a collection of cassette tapes that contain pre trial interviews with Gaysey that no one had ever heard before. Now you can turn on Netflix or Hulu and listen to the same old story about Casey that you've heard a hundred times, or you can listen to Defense Diaries season one and hear the real story about Gaysey that you can't get anywhere else. So after you hear this interview, please go search Defensive Diaries in download Bob's podcast and listen to season one and then listen to all the other seasons because you're gonna want to. I had an absolute blast talking with Bob. I hope to have him back again soon.

2:17 And now the show The Dark Side contains descriptions of violence and sexuality. Goddess listener discretion is advised. Yeah, welcome to the Tapes from the dark Side after show. My guest today is Bob Mada of Defense Diaries. He is a defense attorney and has an amazing podcast. Thanks for joining us, Bob.

3:16 Thanks tz Man I'm excited to be here with you. I mean, we've been talking I don't know, maybe a year and a half about doing this, so it's a long overdue. I'm excited to do this with you, man. Yeah. Man, it has been a while, hasn't it. It's been a while. Man, it's our first official meetings. It is. Yeah, it is. You're you're like literally one of my first podcast friends, you know, one of the guys that reached out too early and we had a pretty nice little connection, create a little friendship, and you know, we've talked about doing stuff for a long time. So finally it's it's arrived. It has come. The time has come, the time has come, and I'm I'm excited to do it. Yeah. Thanks man, I'm And I know the people on Patreon have been saying they're they're really interested in hearing your take on some of this Daniel Shaver stuff because you know, I have my amateur podcaster take of it, but there's a lot of the legal ins and outs that you know, get your get your opinion on, and I think it'll be interesting. Yeah, you know, man, I mean I listened to Season five was great, by the way, like all of them are and I'm you know, I am. I'm a big fan of your show. Man. You're a super smart guy, which is always that is the most important thing to me with any podcast I listened to that, I'm listening to somebody who's bright, which you certainly qualify under that category. So you know, as always, Uh, you know, I'm

4:47 sucked in immediately with every season you've ever done, Like first three minutes, I'm like, and I'm like, I'm in. So there's no exception to that. Yeah, no, And I mean it, dude, you're I love your pod. Um. Yeah, you know, obviously I knew about this case, um, you know, just having heard about it, but obviously I was not in depth like I was after after I listened to the season, so you know, and it's like, man, just sitting there listening to that shit like that, you know that whenever it was two minutes in time or you know, he's just barking those orders. But I'm jumping ahead, man, Yeah, no, I'm yeah, let's let's dive into this because I'm you know, it's it's hard to listen to that season and not walk away infuriated. You know, It's just kind of the way it played out, um, you know, at least from the criminal side of it. Yeah, No, definitely, it was. It definitely got my blood pumping the first time I saw that video, and it was it's all I mean, the first time you see it is pretty surreal, uh, because it's crazy. I mean, it's like it's like watching a snuff video exactly. No bullshit, man, I mean I like, you know, I've seen, you know, obviously hundreds of videos of you know, young black man getting you know, shot down by police, and you know, it's it's it was different in the sense that, you know, typically those happened out outdoors. You know, there's some kind of extenuating circumstances that are going on, and this was just different just because of you know, the

6:21 prone position this kid was in and you know, just the you know, the guy has his weapon trained on him. Just bart well, let's get into it, man. Yeah, it's it was, yeah, it's it's it was shocking to the conscience. Man. Like when I first thought it as like, holy shit, I can't believe what I'm seeing. I couldn't believe it. I don't know that I'd ever seen anything like it. Yeah. Yeah, and I've seen like like the LaQuan McDonald thing here in Chicago were you know, the cop was this Van Dyke cop who put sixteen rounds into this kid with the claim that the kid had a knife in the kid of course not having knife, and he just mows him down. You know.

7:01 It's like that kind of stuff. You know, when when when that becomes the norm? Yeah, it's problem, a problem, yeah, you know. And so yeah, so let's dive in. Well, the first thing I had for us to talk about, which relates a lot back to what we were just discussing with the kind of you say, the shocking nature of when you first see it, was the prosecutions push to not release the body cam footage pre trial. Um, they thought that it could lead to mistrial if in selecting the jury, them not being able to find people who I guess hadn't seen the video. Um, and then if maybe somebody lied and then they get him in the jury pool. Uh, that seems And I mean this gets into a larger discussion that I have questions about as far as um having a neutral prosecution. I mean, on the surface, that makes sense to me, but there's a lot of things I take issue with as far as it seems like, um, it seems like we've we have seen police videos that have been released to the public before trials. Um.

8:37 I just wanted to kind of get your take on that and if if that is yeah, yeah, just what's what she said? So well? I mean, first and foremost, when like the concept of bodycams became a thing, you know, the underlying premise was transparency, so we can see what the hell these guys are doing, these guys and gals are doing when they're out there and these these things happen where somebody ends up dead, you know, at the hands of the police, and you know, so that that transparency when they're refusing to release the bodycam footage and look, I mean the reality is that they can always make some kind of argument that makes sense as to why they shouldn't be releasing it. I mean, you know, yeah, it could taint a jury pool, but is it more likely than not that they wouldn't be able to win panel. I mean, it's the same shit that every defendant goes through any kind of you know, even relatively high profile case. It's you know, the challenge is always can we you know, can we find a you know, a jury that hasn't been tainted and you know, isn't biased and like so that argument just falls on deaf ears with me because I've been dealing with that shit for twenty years as a criminal defense attorney. You know. It's like it's like the Anthony Garcia thing, which is what we're doing our second season. I was a fucking nightmare.

10:03 You know. They tried my guy in the press for three years. It took three years for the case to get to trial. And there was an article in the paper from a lackey of the state that was getting leaked information like every day, so you know, and and we lost our motion for a change of venue, so we were stuck in that county. So I knew because I filed my change of venue early. You know, like we had hired a polling company to pull the citizens of Douglas County to see if they had reached a conclusion, like it had they heard of the case, if they had heard of the case, they reached, you know, a conclusion as to innocence or guilt, and they had a majority of them that the numbers were shocking. It's like, there's no way we should have lawed.

10:43 There's no way that should have been in that county. It's like in a in a case like that, it's like, I can't do it. It's like the Idaho fourth thing. There's no way that's going to be in in uh Letah County. And just like you know, I was in Delphi, you know last week, you know, for that hearing, and the main ring that was going was the change of venue. And you know, because the reality well I'll digress there because it's I'll do the same shit you well, I'll go into a rabbit hole about the you know, just kind of the philosophical side of it all. So my estimation is and it's a state by state thing, you know, like in terms of like there's laws that are written about them having to release the body camp footage prior to trial.

11:26 You know, like a lot of states have laws protecting the law enforcement side, which I know is something we're going to kind of dig into a little bit because there's so many conflicts, you know, when you're dealing with a case like this, because it's unusual to have the cop is the defendant exactly, you know what I mean, you know what I'm saying. So and it's like and I know We're going to dive into that subject in depth a little bit in a little bit, but you know, it's all intertwined, you know, and ultimately, you know, like to me, the more compelling argument for not releasing video is to at least from their side, you know, I think that they should release everything because fuck them, you know, like a transparency is all that matters. We have a right as a citizens who are the ones that are paying their salaries to know what they're doing out there, especially in light of the amount of power that they have with that gun in that badge. You know, if you've listened to my pot at all, you know, I am. You know. There's good cops out there, there are, you know, and it's a thankless job.

12:26 And I I you know, I get that in there. We need them. That being said, there are a bunch of shitty cops, you know, and it's it's an extreme amount of power that they have. And you know, so I'm always questioning is the training enough, Is the psychological evaluation prior to hiring being done properly? Is it enough? You know, because you can't have like the jag Off bully that was in high school that was beating everybody's ass then turning into a cop because you know what, that guy's still the jagoff bully that he was and h school beating everybody's asking up. Now he's got a gun in a badge. Yeah, just unchecked power. Um. You know, in a lot of times, that's who cops are, you know, I mean, that's you know, and a lot and again I'm not trying to generalize cops. I I have cop friends.

13:16 I respect the hell out of good cops and what they do, you know. But just like any profession, there's bad eggs, you know, and in that you know, in that profession, when a bad egg kind of exposes themselves, that usually is resulting in death. That's that's one of the problems. So, um, you know, as far as the video getting released, you know, the civil unrest angle would be the angle if I'm you know, somebody working for the Mayor's office of Chicago. That's why I'm not wanting it released, you know, like Laqwan McDonald's was not released until trial either, you know, And that was the position they took. They said, well, look, you know, we simply are not in a position to want to release this video. They knew it was shocking. You know, they knew that this kid was unarmed and you got shot sixteen times, and you know that's it's going to upset people, and people are going to take the streets, you know, I mean, as they should, you know, so, um, it's one of those things where I can see why they don't do it, but the fact of the matter is is that it needs to be done, you know, like we can't. It's like that whole thing man, like are there aliens? And you know, yes there are, and they're just not releasing it because we can't handle it.

14:31 Not bullshit. We have a right to know, you know. It's it's kind of a strange analogy. But I'm you know, like I'm a big alien guy. Just you know, Um, if you think I'm crazy, well, I mean that's your that's your prerogative. But you know, it's kind of the same. It's kind of the same thing though, you know, in the sense that you know, not trusting the public to be able to handle or truth is no answer to me, you know. I mean, I think in terms of what the purpose all the body cams are, which we all know as transparency as to what is going on during these encounters that, you know, if they're not releasing it, how is there any transparency? Right, yeah, exactly. And I think with the defense, you know, being um with the with the cop being the defendant, like you were saying, that kind of flips the script a little bit because usually it's the other way around, and that's you know, we kind of alluded to it already, but I think we should jump into it, which is is there a conflict of interest in cases like this where a county prosecutor is prosecuting basically a fellow employee of the county, So there exists this unspoken motive to perhaps not get a guilty verdict or not do your job as a prosecutor because it can come back negatively on the city in terms of a civil

16:04 case, monetary justice Department investigations. And the reason I bring that up is because there's a number of times that it felt like, you know, and this is just one example of the push by not the defense, but by the prosecution not to release the body camera footage, and you know, the prosecution fumbling a number of number of arguments throughout the trial. It just seems suspicious. It seemed like, you know, maybe there's a motive here for them not to do their job. What's your take on that? Yeah, I have long thoughts on that. Excuse me, Yeah, I there's absolutely a conflict, and so just kind of how it works with the prosecutor's office and whatever agencies. So, you know, like typically, like in any county you're practicing in, you have typically depending on the size of the county, you know, you can have five, ten, fifteen, twenty law enforcement agencies within that county. All of those all of those agencies are working hand in hand with the prosecutor's office. So while they're technically not employees of say the prosecutor's office, they are the arm of enforcement for the prosecutor's office.

17:33 I understanding what I'm saying. So cops aren't taking orders from prosecutors at least in terms of being on the streets. Now, they do take orders if prosecutors are like I need this evidence, I need to go find it, that's what they do. You know, So there's an absolute conflict there, like without question. I mean, you're talking about two pieces of the puzzle that are like completely intertwined with one another, and you know, to think for one moment that you know, You've got a prosecutor who has this cop that testifies on his behalf on behalf of the people the state of Illinois, and this circumstance for me all the time on all their cases, that they protect them constantly when they're on the stand. You know, to think that that somehow disappears and that that relationship doesn't have any kind of bearing on what's going on in any case is absurd. Of course it does. So, yeah, there's a there's a massive conflict. Now, what typically happens because of that conflict, like in a county that's smart, is that they will bring in a special prosecutor. Now, the question that I have and what I've been posing, like, so i go when I'm in court and you know, I'm talking with prosecutors or the lead prosecutor, and like one of the counties I'm in and like one of these kinds of cases comes up, I'm always like, hey, you know, let's not have a prosecutor prosecute these cases because there's always going to be a conflict there, whether it's

19:04 a special prosecutor from like a different county or not. The reality is is there's going to be a conflict. So why don't we appoint a defense attorney as a special prosecutor that alleviates the problem, and there's nothing that stops them from doing that. Like you don't have to be like a prosecutor in order to be named a special prosecutor to try a case. To me, that makes the most sense. It's absolutely common sense. Why would why would an outside um special prosecutor? Why would that lead to another conflict of interest just because it's a prosecutor, you know, Like that's that's what they do, man, That's like it's their hand in hand, right, Like the prosecutors can't exist without that arm of the police, you know, out there enforcing the law, you know, getting the arrest, writing the reports. Like everything is done in locked up between those two parties. It's like it makes sense, you know, Like in the past couple of years, you know, with starting with you know, a couple other cases, but like in the last six months, you've probably heard the term, you know, probably cause Affidavid more than you've ever heard it in your entire life. Combined when the Delphi PCA came out and then the Idaho for probably cause Affi David came out. I mean, those are like literally I've been you know, I'm an old dude and I've been practicing for twenty plus years and I've never heard probably cause Affidavid's talked about so much ever, you know. So I'm sitting

20:37 there like, holy shit, and like I've got all these resident you know, geniuses and armchair lawyers on the internet talking about shit that they have no fucking idea what they're talking about. Oh, they don't put all the evidence in there. I'm like, nah, dude, Like they put the best evidence that they have at the time in the in the PCA. Always are they including every detail? No, of course, not that you know, thirty page affidavit. Now, what they're doing is they're summarizing what their best evidence is at the time, and they put that forward. So, you know, and that is developed between the cops and the prosecutors. Like, the cops aren't writing those affidavits. They're signed off by a cop. But believe me, those are all written by you know, especially in a major case. Maybe in smaller cases, you know, where it's like a robbery or something like that, you know, the cops are writing those out.

21:27 But in major cases that they know are going to be scrutinized heavily, not only by the defense but by the public as well. Those are drafted by prosecutors, you know, in all major cases, like the prosecutor is not letting because they can be attacked, you know, like people forget people forget that, you know, like when I get um, you know, when I get a file, when I get retained on something, first thing I look at is is the rest warrant in the search warrants, because I'm looking to attack them, and I'm looking to quash warrants to get you know, evidence suppressed, and I'm looking to quash the arrest, which goes directly to what was written in the Affidavid for the arrest. So if there's gaping holes in there, so they're not holding back the best evidence in those things.

22:14 Ever, it's not just not how it works. The reality is in a case like like say the Idaho four case, eight percent of the evidence that they will end up using in that trial is going to be post arrest because that's when they have access to the guy's apartment, his car, his family home, his DNA not his dad's DNA, all of his devices, all the evidence like what they had then is what they had then, like, that's all of it that they had, and it was very compelling. I mean you read it and you're like, all right, this is massively different than what they came up with in the Delphi case. I mean that you read that thing, You're like, oh my god, do they have the right guy? You know, where where's the evidence? It's like the so so, Yeah, there's that conflict because you've got a prosecutor and a law enforcement agency that are always in locked up and that that is a mindset, you know what I'm saying, And you can't turn that function off in your mind. I don't care if you're in a different county or not, Like you'd have to be from a different planet for you to be a prosecutor.

23:19 And you're going in prosecuting a cop a whole different county, the whole ship is flipped upside down and everything because every cop that works for you is like fuck that guy. You know, you know that guy, that guy's trying cops, Well, fuck that guy. In this modern day, I mean, I like what you said about having a defense attorney be the special prosecutor, but it might even be the case where whether it is a defense attorney or whoever it is. There's so many of these cases now we might have to have prosecutors who just prosecute cops or maybe that's their specialty, um, and they don't do anything else. Yeah, I mean that's I don't know, like I could see that being Yeah, and they'll be as well liked as um, you know, like, uh, what's it called, like the internal affairs guys you know who are all cops? Yeah? Yeah, they're they're all contrips who are yeah, you know, they're the plague of the the cop world. You know, all cops hate the internal affairs guys.

24:26 Yeah, I mean that's certainly that's certainly one answer, um where they kind of have just like a special unit prosecutors that don't prosecute anything other than um, you know, and it would probably only take one, you know, two prosecutors to kind of man that office, depending on the size of the county. Yeah, I'm not saying that, I know what the best answer is either, No, I like, if they're not going to just appoint defense attorneys, which is what they should do, you know, because it's it's one of those things where you know that relationship is the proper mindset to where you know that the prosecuting attorney in that particular circumstances is going to be going balls out against exactly. Yeah, and you can't because it's after the fact. You can't go in and say, oh, hey, this prosecutor didn't try hard enough, so we have to retry the case. You know, it's like they get one chance, and especially Mitch. You know, the Mitch rails for trial. It seemed so it's like I didn't know if the fix was in there or she was just a shitty lawyer. Well, let me play. Let me go ahead and play a clip for you.

25:37 Um, okay, I know you've listened to it. I'll play it again for both of us and you actually let me see. Actually I should be able to play it from the Google meetings. Let you see how was there an imminent threat meeting a moment before it? And assault occurs from Daniel when you didn't see or no if he had a guns which, as the criminal defense attorney Jason Lamb joins us to talk about this case, said, everybody has been following closely waiting for him to take the stand in his own defense. What do you think you saw a playoff? Well, we knew this was coming. We knew that Mitch Brailsford was going to take the stand because under Arizona law, the defense is the obligation to generate some evidence that the defendant acted in self defense, at least if the jury is going to be instructed on the issue. Here's what I mean by that. Only Mitch Brailsford can say what was going through his head and why he used deadly force, why he saw an imminent threat. And it played out just like I said it would when we were here last a few weeks ago. But I gotta tell you something, when I saw that cross examination yesterday, I was a little surprised because I think the prosecutor is almost starting to throw in the towel because there's something called lesser included offenses. And let me let me explain

27:07 to you what that means when we talk about murder. First green murder is an intentional killing with premeditation, second degree is intentional without premeditation, manslaughter is a reckless killing, and then you work your way down to negligent homicide. But there was some video yesterday from the cross examination that I thought was very telling. Maybe we can take a look at that Okay, So at that moment you did want to shoot him, correct, all right, So you were just being reckless when you shot him? Certainly? Were you being careless? Was it an accident? No? Man, so you wanted to shoot him and you shot him? No, I did not want to shoot him him? Right, Well, if it wasn't an accident and it wasn't carelessness, and it wasn't recklessness, then you intended to shoot him, correct.

27:53 It was what I needed to protect my fellowman and the woman that we had just seen things. I see what you're saying, and that's less of a cross and more of helping him explain what was happening for him. What I actually just saw and maybe you and maybe people at home saw it too, was actually a hail Mary? In cross examination, what the prosecutor did? She went through the different mental states for second degree murder, for manslaughter, and then for negligent homicide. And why would a prosecutor go for these lesser offenses if you don't have faith in your main charge, second degree murder? And if anything, she gave Mitch Brailsford, a very well prepared and well coached Mitch Brailsford, the opportunity not only to deny these lesser offenses, but to reassert his argument of self defense. All right, that's pretty much what was your take on that. Yeah, when I when I first watched that night, I had not watched that trial live. I was taken aback by how poorly the prosecutor cross examined him just in general. You know, It's like I don't know if I necessarily disagree or agree with him either way.

29:11 Um, I just kind of look at it differently in terms of it being a hill Mary. I just she didn't have the ability to be able to pin him down. Um, you know, for for the second you know, for the second degree. You know, it has to be intentional. Now, of course common sense dictates just by way of the way it shook out. And of course he was intending to shoot him, you know, I mean his weapon was trained on him. You know, he's a skilled marksman, and you know he warned him several times. So when he opened fired, obviously you know, when he opens fired, he obviously intends to hit him. Um. You know, like it got lost in this like little esoteric conversation, right, I mean, like she just lost there exactly, She just lost control of that, like you know, the whole thing with a cross examination, you know, the entire point of it is that you are able to control the flow of that particular testimony, you know, whereas like the difference with a direct examination, you can end like you can ask open ended questions, you know, um, whereas with a cross examination, you're asking very pointed questions where you know, like so when it direct, I can say, well, you know, tell me what happened, okay, And that's like direct happens when it's your witness. So when you put your witness on the stand, you can then just let them kind of go through like a long story and narrative saying what happened. We're on cross

30:47 examination. The entire point is you're able to ask very pointed questions, what they call leading questions, where you're only giving them the ability to be you know, give you either a yes or no answer. You know. So like she like she was not doing that, like not really she was just like she was just kind of leading him, not not effectively at all. You know. It was one of the poorest cross examinations i'd seen of somebody who had shot somebody ever, you know, because like we were just saying like that conversation that they're having, and that's the way it almost seemed was conversational to me as opposed to antagonistic, which is the way that it's supposed to be on Cross you know, where she you know, she's like not clarifying what she means by intent. You know, were you intending? You know, I mean, obviously he's going to say, no, I didn't want to sh you know, I didn't want to shoot him. I had to shoot him based on my training experience because I thought that he was reaching for a weapon, right, So like she she needed to be able to pinpoint him into what was really going on. And you know, it's like the more you watch how that that thing played out, um in terms of the trial and how it was handled, you know, I see why a jury came back the way that they did, ye, how the case was tried, you know what I mean. It's kind of like, as much as I had an inclination to believe that OJ did it, I also knew that when I watched every second of that trial, that they didn't prove it

32:20 beyond a reasonable doubt, you know what I mean. So it's like and it was kind of the same same with this. That's like, that's what I'm saying. You know, it seemed as if the fix was in with this thing because she fumbled it just enough to where it kind of left it to where they couldn't find it beyond a reasonable doubt. And the fact that that you had Charles Langley giving the instructions added the whole another layer of you know, responsibility and culpability, you know, putting it all on the guy who fired the gun when really the ringleader wasn't on trial. Um. So well, this brings us back to another point too, which I didn't put in the notes, but I wanted to get your take on it. They ruled that the engraving on the gun was prejudicial. Um. So the jury never heard that. It said, you're fucked on the dust cover. Um what do you I mean, what's your take on that? If you could give an objective take, like, is that something that you could remove yourself from the details of this case and say, okay, maybe that would be prejudicial? Um Or do you think no, it goes to mental state?

33:43 Yeah, it thought, Well, you know, welcome to my world. So I've been dealing with that shit for twenty fucking years. In courts of law where I am constantly told that evidence like that is more prejudicial than it is probitive, which is what you know what they hang there. That's what the judges hang their hat on, you know, because like you know, because you can sit there and listen to this guy give testimony about how he was an eagle scout, so that they're building his character up, like I mean, like he's a great as a teenager and building you know, the homeless and was giving you know, canned food drives for the homeless people, for homeless kids, you know, I mean, so you know that that's kind of like it all ties into this kind of like this backward scenario where you've got a prosecutor trying a cop, you know what I'm saying, where you know he's not going to have any because typically, you know, everything is a defense attorney, I'm I'm trying to rebut all the dirt that they're trying to bring in on my guy. That like so, like like typically in a in a criminal defense, you know, from the criminal defense side of it, I have a situation pre trial where I'm always fighting motions where they are trying to bring in prior bad acts, and those are things that it's not even something that he's necessarily been convicted of. It's just something that he may have done or said that goes to his character. So like I would have been making that same argument, and they almost invariably allow it in

35:15 if it's close in time and if it's related to the crime that he's been charged with. And obviously him saying that in terms of inscribing it on his weapon is pertinent. It shows what his mindset is. Man, it's the gun he used that night. Like I could see if it was a rifle he kept at home and used for hunting or but I mean it's well, it's it's his work issued No, it's actually his or his weapon exact. Yeah, it's it's his weapon that work designated. Yes, it's his work designated weapon. But he owns it. You know, he owned it prior to the job. He's certified to use it, and they let him use it on the job. To me, to you know, you know, I mean that is going to be something that will if if it were, you know, had he been convicted, you know, And there's like prosecutors never appeal a loss like that because there's double jeopardy. You know, once he's acquitted, it's done, it's over. You know. The only you know, like you mentioned to me a couple of times, I mean there's an off chance that the Feds could move on it. Um, you know, but the reality is as if the prosecution can't bring it home, if the Feds aren't going to touch it. You know, that's just the reality of it. I mean that that's like, you know, the form of justice that that you know, his wife is going to get is going to be you know, the money that she got, you know that right sheet she ended up getting. Yeah, right after the season pretty much premiered that she settled. Um, yeah, what she got like eight million something?

36:47 Yeah, yeah, So you know, I mean, unfortunately that is never going to bring Daniel Shaver back. Um, you know, is that really any kind of justice? No? Um, you know, we just need to hope that this guy is never you know, on a police force again or any kind of law enforcement agency. I mean he's not, is he. Have you heard has that guy been hired back by anybody? No? No, well, you know, the whole thing with him being hired just so he could get his disability. So he was hired back by MESA for like a month, But no, I don't think. I think the part of the agreement was he would never work at least for MESA again. But the larger question, too, is about his co conspirator, who supposedly is in the Philippines. But as as I did more research into that, I really couldn't find anything confirming that, And I started to think, you know what a perfect rumor. If I'm that guy, I wouldn't mind people thinking I'm living in the Philippines. You know, I don't know. Maybe maybe some one did get, you know, record of his plane flight or something, but you know, as far as I know, he might actually still be hanging around. Um, but yeah, I don't know. What do you think is there any chance of I mean at this point probably not, But is there any chance he could be or why do you know, way,

38:22 why do you think he was never charged in the first place because it was a tougher case than the one against Shaver. You know what I'm saying. It's like that that's a tougher case to the guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know that that's that's like a harder case to prove than the case against the shooter. You know, I mean, like it's always it boils down to for prosecutors whether or not they think they can get a conviction on it right right, and they look at it super subjectively, you know. I mean they're they're not as concerned with you know, victims and things of that nature. And again, you know, it's like because of like the backward natures of this thing, you know, that's always going to come into play. Like there's there's so much you know, red tape and politics behind closed doors that's going on with these types of cases always, you know, because it's not just you know, you've got police unions that are dealing with it, and you've got just all kinds of shit going on back and forth between mayors of towns and you know, I mean it's these are not clean things. You know. The best way to handle this is to start handling it on the front end. You know, they need they need extremely thorough psychological examinations done of any you know, done on anybody that's that's trying to get into those jobs. Man, because we need to know who we're giving the power to. Because I've said it on my pot a bunch of times, man, you just I am I am. I am hard pressed to think of another occupation that is given more power than a police off

40:00 officer. And and I'm talking on a daily basis. And you know, sure you can make the argument you have the power. You know, the President of the United States has the most power, But do they really I mean, they're more of a figurehead. They've got the checks and balances in there with the House and the sunate man, you know. I mean, like in terms of day to day power and the ability to control other people's movements, what they say, what they do. You know, like up until recently, to end lives without any kind of repercussion, you know, to go in, kick in a drug dealer's door on a bad search, steal all the cash. I mean that, Like, if you have not watched UM, We Own This City about the Gun Trace Task Force in Baltimore, you need to. You need to start watching that ship tonight because it's documentary. Now it's actually um it's actually scripted, but it's based on real life, on that gun Trace Task Force that was in Baltimore, and it was kind of like it was apped in with it was funny. I watched it and it's brilliant it's by yeah, yeah, of course. So I think it was a six parter man and it's it's mind blowing. I'm the guy. These guys were straight up criminals, you know, but they were robbing drug dealers. I gotta send you, I gotta send you the UM the little After show he just did, which is one of the guys.

41:28 UM has a podcast, one of the X Cops in Mesa, and he interviewed um not Mitch brails for but he interviewed the head of the police union, uh Nate Gavert, who came out and uh, you know said that of course Mitch Brailsford wasn't guilty, and he probably wrote the very mean spirited Facebook message like the month after the shooting that said he paid the price. You know, he has to face consequences, and he did. That's why he's dead or whatever, you know whatever it said. Right, But on this podcast, this guy he always asked, he always asks his guests, He always has cops on why they wanted to be a cop. And he said his reason is because in the movie Serpico, when they're asking when al Pacino's character Serpico, when he says, you know, the reason he wanted to be a cop. I don't know if you remember. It's kind of an obscure scheme, but he says, there was something happening in the neighborhood and he saw all the cops running in, and they were the guys who knew what was going on, Like, they knew what was happening and no one else did. And that's why he wanted to be a cop. That's why Serpico did. And then this guy said, well, that's why he did, and he missed the whole broader narrative of that film about police corruption,

43:00 right, yeah, exactly, and it's about like but that's yeah, it's just uh man, yeah, I mean, look dude, it's like that's what I'm saying, like that this issue has to be dealt with on the front ends because the politics of it is never going away, you know, it's just not. And the police union's very powerful. You know, You've got you've just got layer after layer, you know, starting from up on high in any city, you've got the mayor's office is going to be backing its police. You know, they're going to be fighting against liability, against the city, you know, and and it's it's gotten to the point now like we're like our third season we were, I think we're gonna shift it to our fourth season because I had another story jump up, and like I want to I want to take advantage of it, you know, before this guy dies. But um, it was about this cop named Ronaldo grovera who was using all his confidential informants. And if you don't know what a confidential informant is, is that somebody that typically has picked up a you know, like a beef, like a you know, they got picked up on a like typically a drug charge, or you know, some kind of like medium level crime where it's not murder, rape or any of the big ones, you know, and the cops then flip them then use them as informants to say, all right, look, we're not going to charge you on

44:30 this case, but your mind now I own you, and you're you know, you're going to be out on the streets. You're gonna be my eyes and my ears, and you know, anytime I need a witness in a case, you're my guy, you know. So I need to keep your eyes open, I need to keep your ears open. I need you to be feeding me information whenever I need it. And so that's what confidential informants are. So this guy, Ronaldo Guvera, was using all of his CIS and in the early nineties up through like the late nineties, he clo fifty one murder cases using his CIS, fingering innocent men. So he he put fifty one innocent guys in prison on murder beefs all all from using his CIS and of course he was planting evidence and all that other stuff. Thirty of them have been exonerated, damn. So so yeah, like, so you have the unusual circumstance in Cook County, which is where Chicago is, the county that Chicago is situated in, where like typically in those types of cases, you have the support of the mayor's office, like they're behind you because they don't want the liability. Like for them, it's all about the money, Like the city does not want to pay out on these things. So like this, there has just been one after another after another that have been overturned, and you know, the people in prison have been exonerated and I'm talking these people have been prisoned for twenty years. You know. It's like, dude, it's insane. Like this guy is like the arch criminal.

45:58 He's like the worst copst cops. Not only is he still alive, he's never he's never been charged to anything. So just like like just let that kind of like roll around in your head a little bit, that concept. So but like Kim Fox, who's currently the um these States Attorney in Cook County, she said, we're we're done, We're done backing this guy. We're not We're not gonna So they're just really it's like it's like a blank checks like situation. Anytime there's a Verra guy that that you know, the case is picked up, they're just right now twenty million dollars checks to these families like over no it dude, it's it's unbelievable. So you know the point being that, you know, if we can start dealing with like we like the defunding the police was not properly phrased, like when that that concept was brought up, but like that that was people like automatically thought, oh, we're not gonna have police anymore. It's not what it meant. Like what it meant is that you don't dump huge amounts of money into turning your police, you know, agencies into you know, militarized squad units that yeah, you know what I mean, it's like, that's that's not their purpose.

47:08 Man. They're out there to serve and protect. Remember when they used to put that out. Do they even put that on cop cars anymore? I don't know. That used to be on all cop cars to serve and protect. I think at some point they're like, you know what, maybe we should take that off. I think we're gonna I think we're gonna start stripping that off there, you know. So it's like, but if we can start handling it on the front end and just get good people, because I just know good guys and girls, good good girls or good women and men that are that are cops. You know, it's like that are good people, man, and like like you need those people because that is a scary job. I mean, they're out in the shit. You know, they're out dealing with, you know, sometimes some really bad people, you know, um. Other times they're they're dealing with the underserved that are you know. It's like it all depends on the situation they're in. And you know, if you're you know, on the West Side of Chicago, you have to understand it's an underserved community and kids are you know, out there doing what they need to do to survive, you know what I mean.

48:09 It's like every situation is different in terms, and you just have to have people that are going into that job capable of understanding what they're getting into and understanding the sociology of you know, where they're a police officer, and you know what the realities of each town, each city, you know that you're dealing with it because if you just go in like like I'm not even getting as like as narrow as like as the as the guy a racist or not. I mean, obviously that's a bad fit for that job, you know. But but I'm talking just like just straight biases, you know, where people that just don't like have an understanding of real life and how it works, and you know, and inner city areas and you know the trials and tribulations and you know all the hurdles that have to be gone through in order to kind of you know, get yourself financially in a position to be able to succeed in this you know, capitalist society that we've created. Man, it's like, I don't know it, Like to me, it seems like it's there's an answer, um, you know, And to me, it starts with the hiring process. What do you think too, things? What do you think too, because I do think you know, those two things are probably the most important UM aspects to tackle. Another thing that came up over and over again in uh in Mesa was independent review boards. So somebody

49:45 who is has no monetary connection or otherwise any other connection to the police department, who has authority to you know, run investigations, third party um access to bodycam footage, that kind of thing. Do you do you see that as being another aspect of this. Yeah, you know, but that's still after the fact, right. It's like it's all reactive stuff. We need to be proactive with things in terms of just changing the mentality of the people that are being hired onto these you know, these agencies. Man. You know, it's like we just you know, we don't need robocops, you know. And in defensive police officers. They're not social workers, they're not mental health workers. They shouldn't be dealing with the mentally ill out there.

50:37 And frankly, you know, I've been doing this a long time. Eighty percent of my clients that were charged with some kind of crime, no matter what it was, whether it was you know, burglary, theft, it was either related to drug addiction and or mental health you know, mental health issues, man. I mean, it's like so like cops are dealing with things that they should not be dealing with out there, you know, like in terms of dealing with with mentally you know, people you know, and you know, dealing with with you know, addicts who you know, just because you know, those people aren't acting um in a way that the normal functioning people are acting because of other other things that are affecting them mentally, whether it be drugs or alcohol or you know, just mental illness alone.

51:23 You know. So it's like they just they have to be you know, they just have to be vetted more carefully when coming through, you know. And it's like you know, and I know they give them lie detectors and they give them psyche valves, but it's like those you know, those are there's there's just like standardized tests, like you're not delving into anybody, you know. And it's like like so the city needs to decide, Okay, do you want to keep paying out you know, twenty ten, twenty million every time one of our cops killed somebody when they shouldn't have, you know, or do we want to sink some of the money into the front end to where we're going to spend a little more time on the hiring process.

52:05 We're not going to just give him some standardized psyche val, you know, We're actually gonna you know, force them into you know, counseling where they're talking to somebody in person, to where somebody or several people that are vetting them to say, okay, well, you know, based on some of the answers this guy gave, he's he might not be the best hire, you know what I'm saying. I mean, there's ways to delve into that. Um, you know, because any any kind of standardized testing, man that they all know, they know going in, they know how to answer that shit, you know what I mean. It's like it's like a false front. It's it's not doing anything. It's not it's not solving the problem. So you know, and then you look at the training and I forget what the hell I was watching. Man, It was something and this guy was like the number one you know, agency police training guy like in the country. And this guy is like a you know, shoot to kill, ask questions later type guy. You know. I mean, he's like the diametric opposite of what we need in those positions, you know. And the bottom line is is that officers have to be able to protect themselves because it's an extremely dangerous job. But it but it. But it can't be shoot first and ask questions later, which is which is what the mentality is.

53:24 You know, Like everything, like everything that dude was talking about at trial, like in terms of his training is geared towards pro shooting, you know, pro like pro kill. Like like everything is geared towards justifying what he did as opposed to trying to you know, walk it back, you know, and get the situation under control. It's like, like, if I'm him in that position, I'm getting one of the four other people that are with me, the four other officers, I'm saying, I've got him covered, go get him and get him in cuffs, you know, get him restraint right now, and then the situation's over. Instead he's he's screaming like some kind of lunatic, like some kind of power hungry lunatic. You know.

54:06 It's like that's the part of the thing that that's so hard to reconciles. You hear him, and you can hear his attitude and just the way he speaks and the way that he's barking these orders, and you know, just the condescending shit that he's saying is what makes you hate him, you know. It's it's it's like there's probably some truth to you know, the fact when you look at it objectively, with the totality of the circumstances. And you've got two people in a pool looking up in a window and see somebody holding what they think as an assault rifle. It's probably not too far removed from the Vegas shooting in the hotel when the guy's wiping out into you know, an entire concert. So the you know, the country's hyper or sensitive about that shit. So them going in only knowing a limited amount of information, you know, I can see where his mindset would be initially, you know, but once he gets that guy under absolute in total control, Like I forget what you said in the like exactly in your episode, but you're like, you know, kind of in the history of having somebody you know, completely relent in terms of you know, being instructed to do something, and I am like, I am I am not doing anything that's going to get me shot, Like that guy was that guy, right, you know, And and he's barking orders that don't make sense in terms of you know, like well, I want you to crawl, but you can't use your you can't be on your knees or your your elbows, and that's impossible, you know, like right Simon with yeah, just impossible directions and right,

55:39 you know. So it's like you can see, it's like his attitude is what made me hate him more than than you know, or as much as the actions, right, you know, going into it, just because it was it was evident who he was. You know, he's that guy, you know. And that's the thing about you know, get caught in a screening. If we had more strict screenings, that could mentality and the training like you're saying, with the training too. And that's part of the reason that the season it ended up being more of a season long case. I originally went in thinking I was going to be you know, you see the video, you know, I listened to a little of the trial.

56:24 I thought this will probably be one episode. But then you get into Ramone Batista and the new chief who comes in, and it's like you have this redemption moment for the city. Maybe maybe this you know, this guy wants to embed mental health experts in nine one one call centers, he wants to reform the training, he wants to get third party you know, investigations into what's going wrong. And you're like, there's this moment of hope for the department, and they do everything they can to sabotage it, of course, And that's what was so tragic to me. I was like, this, this is just I mean, it's it's par for the course, dude, you know, I mean, it's like it's the same as it ever was, you know, I mean that that's like, it's just you know, that's what I'm saying, that that the political side of it is so ingrained that it's not like an independent agency. You know, it's under the purview of the mayor's office. And I'm talking about whatever police force it is.

57:29 You know, it's like they're they're always arms of politicians. And even when I'm talking about prosecutors, they're politicians. You know, at least the the you know, the the head prosecutor, whether it be a district attorney, states attorney is what they call him here. You know, you got county attorneys, but like the head, the head person is elected. You know, it's a highly political job. Man, it's all politics. So and it bleeds down into that, you know, and it's all about and it's all about money. You know, it's all about what we're going to allocate money towards and you know, how are we going to allocate it? And you know, and then you've got philosophical differences between how, you know, how shit should be handled, which is always going to pair it what's going on in society, you know what I mean. It's like, you know, if you got a militia type guy that's you know, running ship, then you're gonna get a militia type you know, police force. That's just facts, you know. And it's it's one of those things where, um, you know, we all we all want to feel safe. You know.

58:29 It's like and as white as a white guy, I've been fortunate never to feel the horror of what it's like to just be a black guy just driving, you know, like and yeah, when I see the cops, I get you know, I used to get more on edge when I was a teenager doing drugs. Yeah, me too, for sure. But but even then, you know, I knew, Okay, most of these guys are killed, I'm gonna be all right. You know, it wasn't right. It wasn't Yeah, it wasn't like I'm gonna be killed by the police. There wasn't much right. I never thought that. You know, it's like, right, that's what I'm saying. And you know, put yourself in a situation when you're always thinking that, Well, this case, like it's so interesting on the race thing, because Daniel Shaver was white. The girl in the room with them was white or at least maybe hispanic, Monique Portillo. But um it, you know, none of the officers were.

59:22 They were all white, and so it was like I think it was I think that might have actually been why this case was forgotten. Not not to say because of um you know, we we only wanted to find black victims. But I think it was very scary for white America to see a white guy get destroy, to get executed like this. They didn't want it. I face the reality that there's cops out there that don't give a shit if you're black or white. They just want a power thing. Yeah, power over dudes. Yeah, it's it's for sure, man. And it's like, like I mean the mass shooting thing, like because I like I kept trying to I always try to put my myself into the mind of like, for instance, this guy, um, you know Mitch. I can never remember his last name. But it's like I'm like, you know, what's he thinking going in? You know what I'm saying, like like where is his mindset in? Like how long does that mindset last? Once he has or at least for all intents and purposes, has the scene on our control, right, you know, like why is he still so triggered? Once this guy is like on the floor in a completely prone position, is pants are falling down, he's crying, he's you know, he's clearly yeah,

1:00:53 he's he's complying in every way possible, you know, and this guy just never scales it back. You know, he's just always in that like hyper I'm gonna kill you mode. You know if you don't listen to what you know, it's like dude, you know it's like you sit there and listen to that guy and you're like, oh my god, So to think that that that guy like through some kind of true psychological like a real like psychological battery of tests and you know, examinations by qualified experts that they're not going to sniff that out, you know, because like you're putting them in those situations. You know, it's like or maybe you know, like as soon as dude, I'm gonna tell you you got me in a rabbit hole on that gpt AI shit man, that dude, like I told Alison, I'm like, I'm like TZ was posting about this shit like, so we pulled it up and Alison was just like, we'll be back with more from Bob Mada right after this quick break, stay with us. I went back to the nineties in that case because I wanted to see what Mason was like, you know, twenty years ago. And then I started finding the rich elligant the cop who was raping his daughter, and I found those quotes from his

1:02:23 attorney in the papers in from the nineties when he was charged. I mean, is this kind of something, what's your take on that? You know, Okay, I'll read you one of the quotes whereas these were not consensual actions on the part of teenagers, or these were consensual actions on the part of teenagers. These were teenagers, not children. And it's the attorney talking about the thirteen year old kids that the guy had been raping. Is this something that was a symptom of the times? Is this a symptom of kind of a wild attorney. It just seems something that you no one would say in this day and age. But no, I don would ever say that unless they want to be canceled, right, Like, I mean, like I can't imagine any anybody's saying that ever. You know, Look, it's one thing to be a defense attorney, you know, and putting your best foot forward for your client, right, you know, just in terms of denying guilt, but to come out and make like a firmative statements that these weren't you know, these weren't children. These were teenagers. They were thirteen.

1:03:37 They were children defensively, you know, and like in cases like that where it's nineties too, a big part of it. Yeah, I mean, of course, okay, you know, I mean that that definitely plays a part of it, you know. I mean, if you go back into the seventies looking at the you know, the gay sy shit, right dude, like you know you're gay, they didn't give a fuck. Oh yeah, like law enforcement did not give a fuck, and we know that that was still going on. If you watch the Dahmer shit, you know, it was the same, the same mentality from law enforcement. Oh it's a couple of gay guys. Who gives a shit, you know, like like oh they're they're sexual deviants, No one cares, they don't count, you know, like kind of mentality is prevalent. Yeah, whatever, whatever the case may be. You know, get some undesirable, like you know, they're big lump group of undesirables that they can throw all kinds of people in there, you know, to somebody who's not like them. So yeah, I mean in terms of the mindset, yeah, I mean I think that was definitely a thing, you know. I mean it's like you look at the evolution of everything you know, from I mean, child pornography wasn't even a thing, like like i mean, there is more child porn cases and I'm talking strictly just child porn than any other case on the planet.

1:04:53 Like those are charged more frequently than anything really, you know. And yeah, dude, and then pre Internet, that wasn't the thing. You know. It's like that you had to have some creep making kiddie porn films, you know, and some weird backlot you know what I'm saying, it's like, you know, photographing his daughter. And I don't think he was charged with with child porn. Like I don't even That's what I'm saying. I don't even know if they had that on the books like that, yeah, like back then, like that's like maybe we can that. I wondered if it was a product of the times with uh, you know, because it wasn't just you know, even though even the father was saying, well, she approached me and she wanted to be in Playboy, a thirteen year old girl, and that was supposedly an excuse he thought people would buy. And I'm like, what, like it doesn't even it's like, uh, I don't know. It's just maybe that at the time would have sounded I'm sure it sounded strange even at the time, but maybe it would even sound somewhat possible. But now it's it's like, oh sane, you know, like I no, Like yeah, I mean, and what are we talking like so ninety six, two thousand and two, so you know, what are we talking like twenty twenty six, like twenty six years some shit like that.

1:06:12 Whatever, whatever the math is, you know, I mean in the scope of everything that's a lifetime. So yeah, I mean like like one hundred, like one hundred percent that that was the mentality I mean is is early back as the night, Like, dude, half the shit I watched in the like in the eighties, like which were hugely popular movies like The Breakfast Club and you know, sixteen Candles Or's like it's all rape shit, like like they're like Molly Ringwald's definitely like getting raped in that fucking car, you know what. It's like all the shit that like we watched like in the in the late eighties, like our whole And for the record, the shift is correct, right, you know, I mean like what what like you know that that like at that point I didn't realize it because that was like the norm you know now is it was like and look right exactly and and you look back and you see the horror of like that, you know, and it's like, I got three daughters, you know, I've got three three girls, man, And you know I have raised my girls to be you know, powerful women, you know, and to never to never count out to anybody. I don't give a shit what gender they are, you know. I mean, you're always gonna you know. So it's like but that just you know, like breaking out of that has taken forever.

1:07:30 Dude. You know, we're still we're still not there yet. I mean we've come leaps and bounds for for you know, for women. You know, I think we have a long ways to go in terms of the race side of it. But you know, I mean there's incremental change, you know, man. But yeah, no, I think you know, and children, that concept of they should you know, be seen and not heard. I think you know what it was like for a long long time because I think kind of going to your question, if you look at when they really started bringing um like that type of like education into grammar schools in terms of kids being taught about sexual abuse and you know, beyond like just stranger danger and don't take you know, candy from a stranger type shit, to like where Okay, this can be our uncle, this can be your dad, this can be your brother, this can be you know, I mean, and just letting kids know that that's not okay, that that's not normal because kids didn't know, you know, so like like and it's like I think still in the early nineties that that's where we were as a country.

1:08:40 That makes sense. It's hard. It's weird for me because you know, I was so when this case happened in ninety three, you know, I would have been four years old, so I knew, you know, when I got to the two thousands, things were still kind of the leftovers of the ninety so that culture. I still kind of grew up in it, but I didn't see like we were watching. So I'm thirty three and I was watching. We watched an old Montel Williams episode, and the guest I had on she is twenty seven, so even born into even a more progressive era. And we're watching an episode from nineteen ninety three where this guy who's twenty three years old admits to taking a thirteen year old girl's virginity. She's on stage, he's right there, and you're like, well, when the cops come and arrest him, you know, and it is just like, no, you just said it. No one really cared, and you're like, what this is weird? Crazy? Yeah, dude, It's like yeah, yeah, it's you know, and it depends, like culturally speaking, we're still a very puritanical country. So like the bottom line when you look at I mean there's countries all over the world, and I certainly don't agree with it because you know, kids should not be getting off it, you know, married off at thirteen years old, Like their minds haven't even developed

1:10:12 yet. You know. It's like taking the concept that you know, a girl has you know, hit puberty and his like menstruating, is that they're a woman, and like it is like insane to me. But you know when you look at just kind of like how like historically shit's developed, it's like, yeah, it's I don't know, man, Like because I was googling, like so like the first Federal Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act, which was the first federal statute that made it illegal to send images of real children engage in sexual explicitly sexual activity. When do you think that that was enacted? The first law, the one that I just read that was like the first the first one that was ever on the books in terms of the child maybe nineteen eighty eighty eight, nineteen eighty eight, so like around the internet dawn. Right. So then in nineteen ninety six, they they they upgraded, they expanded it, and they called it the child pornography French in Acts of nineteen ninety six. So like my entire point is is like that show wasn't even a thought like in terms of that, like you know, like that it's late developing. You know. It's just like yeah, like like I mean, now we're far more protective of our children, you know,

1:11:43 but back in the day, you know, it kind of goes to the you know, corporal punishment, you know, with spanking your kids. That's that's dad. These days, you know, like I mean, and there's there's trains of thought that were like, oh, you know, spared the rod, spoil the child type shit. You know, that's the problem with kids these days. You know, maybe there there's some truth to that, maybe there's not. I don't know. I've never been like a child beater, but you know, it's like I've always tried to use my words to get you know, to get my kids to understand, like in terms of them doing things that they shouldn't be doing. But you know, some people may not be as capable of like articulating what they want their children to learn. But you know, I mean up until you know again, eighties, early nineties, it's like when you could beat you could beat your kids, man, you know, and it's like like little humans, like, well it's okay because you made them so you can beat them. You know.

1:12:35 It's just like like we're we're we're progressing, we're evolving, we are we are evolving slowly actually not that slowly, like when you look at the scope of time, you know, right, that's like but yeah, you know exactly dude, Yeah, that's the beginning of the end. Just like you said, like I don't know what I forget what you tweet. Really this is it's going to change the world as we know it. I'm like, yeah, not in a good way. It's like there's like there's not gonna be anything good about that, you know. I mean like like there's gonna be utility of it for sure. Well at the end of the day, Thank you, mister Mata. Oh before we go, um, please tell just take a minute to tell people about Defense Diaries and uh just plug your show for a minute and if anybody hasn't listened, um I'll plug at first. Go go subscribe right now to Defense Diaries. Just search it in your podcast app Defense Diaries and hit subscribe and then uh, you know, right after you hit stop, put on an episode of Um, what would you say, Bob, if they never listened, what season in episode would you say they start with first? Well, I mean considering its serialized, Um, you gotta start at one, you know. And it like it depends on what thing is Season one? Season Yeah, Season one is Gaycy and kind of the like the short stories. My dad was his lawyer.

1:14:06 He left me. I always say left, but he gave me he's still alive. He gave me his taped interviews with gay Sy while he was his attorney prepping him for trial. I turned into a pod. We think it's pretty good. It's not the normal Gaycy story that you've heard. UM, So that one's interesting. It's you know, and I want to tell you right up front, it's a major time investment. My my seasons are not is concisely put together as tzs our first season with the audience though for people who yeah, this is right the tapes from the dark Side fans, they love the exactly. It's this is a deep, deep dive, man.

1:14:47 And then season two is a case about Anthony Garcia, which is a case that I handled, quadruple homicide. Just brutal, tragic case. But it was an absolute war and it was a case that I tried in Omaha, Nebraska. It's another long one, you know. I think we just dropped thirty one on Patreon tonight. I think it's going to actually be longer than Gaycy And it's like, you know, like moving forward, my seasons aren't going to be as long because these both were personal for me. So I had that element of each season where my personal you know kind of influences were involved in both stories. Whereas you know, moving forward, they're not necessarily going to be personal story, so they'll they'll be more tailored to the you know, eight to twelve episode seasons. But you know, yeah, I'm on a criminal defense attorney by trade turn podcaster, you know, and I just try to make the story is interesting with a little bit of educational value in terms of how the criminal justice system works. And you know, I think I'm a pretty good storyteller. So you know, those three things combined, I think make for a pretty decent podcast. So yeah, if you love the deep Dives, which if you're listening to Tz, I know you do because he's a fellow spelunker like me. We love those deep dives man, So um, yeah, I'd love if you listened to again. You can find us anywhere you get your pods. Were their Defense Diaries. Subscribe, follow like all that good stuff and U hope to see uh on the socials. Let me know if you follow. And because TZ and I are both pretty active on the socials, like we get out there and with our

1:16:21 listeners. Yeah, we try to be you know. I mean, it's it's tough, there's only so many hours. But I see you in there, man, you know, I see you. You're out there doing the good works the trenches, in the trenches people. That's right, one at the time, We're one at the time in here, you know, trying to bring the listeners in. But yeah, I love you man. I'm glad we got to do this. It was fun. Um, you know. And I'm always available. I'm at your back and call dude anytime you want to dig into stuff. You know. Hey, same here. Yeah, all right, brother, all right, thanks Bob, and we'll talk to again soon. All right, Chow. Just one last quick reminder to go download Defense Diaries and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. A quick update for tapes from the Dark Side. I'm almost done writing the newest episode.

1:17:14 It's going to be a one off as part of our season X. It's a harrowing case and I think you all will find it fascinating. Also, thank you for everyone who has joined Patreon. Because of you, we were able to donate nearly eight hundred dollars to Laney Sweet, who is the widow of Daniel Shaver from season five. Now. Laney just recently settled with the City of Mesa a lawsuit for eight million dollars, so I was unsure whether she would actually need our financial assistance. If she declined, I was going to donate it to a police reform charity. I was finally able to get in touch with Laney yesterday and she said that her stepbrother's biological mother just passed away, and so she said the money would very much be appreciated and she would donate it to him. So we decided to donate the full amount that we had pledged from half of the Patreon earnings and from the T shirt sales directly to Laney, and I sent that yesterday. I'm gonna put proof of payment up on social media and thank you again, because you guys are really the ones who helped us raise that money. We'll be back soon with another tape from the dark side. In the meantime, trying to enjoy the daylight